[Continuation] The Trump Presidency: Part 27 - Page 44

Norman Alexander · 26th January 2021, 10:17 PM

Originally Posted by bruto

Well, there was speculation that some who voted against the electoral count were afraid for themselves and families, and crazy as that ought to be, crazy trumps sane these days.

Maybe not so crazy. "Nice family you got there. Shame if one of the kids had an accident..."

arthwollipot · 26th January 2021, 10:21 PM

I now read that all but five Republicans have voted against the impeachment trial, which means that it probably will not succeed.

Norman Alexander · 26th January 2021, 10:23 PM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

I now read that all but five Republicans have voted against the impeachment trial, which means that it probably will not succeed.

Virtue-signalling. If the voting was secret then that number might be radically different.

The Great Zaganza · 26th January 2021, 10:32 PM

The evidence that is going to be presented is going to make a lot of Republicans look really bad.
And the GOP insistent that they should be above the law is going to make it easy to run against them in 2022.

Skeptic Ginger · 26th January 2021, 10:36 PM

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

The evidence that is going to be presented is going to make a lot of Republicans look really bad.
And the GOP insistent that they should be above the law is going to make it easy to run against them in 2022.

I believe this is the goal Democrats should aim for.

bruto · 26th January 2021, 11:44 PM

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

Maybe not so crazy. "Nice family you got there. Shame if one of the kids had an accident..."

In this case, I meant that the threats are crazy, not the threatened.

Fast Eddie B · 27th January 2021, 06:08 AM

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

Virtue-signalling. If the voting was secret then that number might be radically different.

Is it in the power of the Democrats to make the vote to convict secret?

Tero · 27th January 2021, 07:14 AM

If it were secret, a lot of GOP would just abstain. Even that would hurt them, and people would track down who abstained.

Tero · 27th January 2021, 08:07 AM

They better get on with this impeachment because assorted criminal and civil cases against Trump are waiting for it to be over.

Ladewig · 27th January 2021, 09:17 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

I believe this is the goal Democrats should aim for.

One cannot out-Trump Trump
One cannot out-hypocritize the GOP.

ETA
Although. It’d be interesting for a Dem to get caught and instead of profusely apologizing before resigning, they simply say “I’ve been asked to apologize. I think the best way to do that is to quote Senator So-and-so (R. Flyover State) ‘I’m sorry that you feel that way.’”

MORE ETA
No, I was right the first time. The Dems will never get to the point that they can close ranks to pull a Garland/Coney-Barret with even a twentieth of the aplomb of the Republicans.

Mader Levap · 27th January 2021, 12:08 PM

Originally Posted by eerok

They should make a three-dollar bill with Trump's picture on it. And then not accept it as legal tender.

They already did.

Skeptic Ginger · 27th January 2021, 01:43 PM

Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B

Is it in the power of the Democrats to make the vote to convict secret?

I'm pretty sure after a voice vote any one member can call for a roll call vote and those are not secret.

Skeptic Ginger · 27th January 2021, 01:46 PM

Originally Posted by Ladewig

One cannot out-Trump Trump
One cannot out-hypocritize the GOP..

Yes, GOP lawmakers for the most part are immune to lying and being hypocrites.

But are they immune to evidence they were all complicit in an attempt to overturn a legit election?

I don't think the people who believe the election was rigged constitute half of the voting public. I could be wrong, but that's my current POV.

dudalb · 27th January 2021, 02:21 PM

Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B

Is it in the power of the Democrats to make the vote to convict secret?

No, and even if it were a secret vote in congress will be a horrible,horrible, precedent.

Segnosaur · 27th January 2021, 02:52 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Yes, GOP lawmakers for the most part are immune to lying and being hypocrites.

But are they immune to evidence they were all complicit in an attempt to overturn a legit election?

I don't think the people who believe the election was rigged constitute half of the voting public. I could be wrong, but that's my current POV.

Well, according to polls taken earlier this month...

From: Vox
72 percent of likely Republican voters said they continue to question the presidential election results. Nearly three-quarters of Republicans, or 74 percent, said allegations of voter fraud have contributed to these concerns. Those are overwhelming majorities, but even among independents, 42 percent said they do not currently trust the election results.
...
While 55 percent of people said they continue to trust the electoral process in the United States, 39 percent of people said they don’t trust it, including 65 percent of Republicans, compared to 12 percent of Democrats.

So, less than half said the election was rigged, but its still a significant number (including the majority of the republican base).

Segnosaur · 27th January 2021, 02:57 PM

Remember Goya? The company that sells canned goods aimed largely at the latin-American market? Remember when one of its executives ended up praising Trump (which caused a backlash, with threats of a consumer boycott.)

Well, looks like they might have stepped in it again.

From: The Hill
The board of directors behind Goya, the Latino food company, has voted to censure its CEO, Robert Unanue, due to his public comments backing former President Trump and his election fraud claims...Unanue’s censuring followed his comments on Fox Business on Inauguration Day that there was a “war coming” and President Biden’s election was “unverified.” "The company has never been political or politicized," the source told CNN. "He's gone from bad CEO to CEO that has imperiled the future of the company and endangered the lives of some of the shareholders.”

Norman Alexander · 27th January 2021, 03:08 PM

Originally Posted by Segnosaur

Well, according to polls taken earlier this month...

From: Vox
72 percent of likely Republican voters said they continue to question the presidential election results. Nearly three-quarters of Republicans, or 74 percent, said allegations of voter fraud have contributed to these concerns. Those are overwhelming majorities, but even among independents, 42 percent said they do not currently trust the election results.
...
While 55 percent of people said they continue to trust the electoral process in the United States, 39 percent of people said they don’t trust it, including 65 percent of Republicans, compared to 12 percent of Democrats.

So, less than half said the election was rigged, but its still a significant number (including the majority of the republican base).

A lot of their distrust could be evaporated if the USA used a single consistent voting process for each and every state, for each and every election. Said method to be the most rigorously rigging-proof one possible. Of course, it is understood that even if this was achieved, there would still be dissenters who wouldn't like the results, and would STILL rage on about election fraud. Just like now.

Norman Alexander · 27th January 2021, 03:09 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

No, and even if it were a secret vote in congress will be a horrible,horrible, precedent.

Unlike the secret voting process used to elect them??

Cavemonster · 27th January 2021, 03:15 PM

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

A lot of their distrust could be evaporated if the USA used a single consistent voting process for each and every state, for each and every election. Said method to be the most rigorously rigging-proof one possible. Of course, it is understood that even if this was achieved, there would still be dissenters who wouldn't like the results, and would STILL rage on about election fraud. Just like now.

It makes me wonder about the utility of further security.

Sure there are SOME weaknesses that probably need to be addressed. But the core claims that I keep hearing from these MAGA doofs are just so clearly bad, that I don't think actual improvements would have changed a single thing about this particular election.

I keep seeing references to a video where votes were pulled from under the table in"suitcases". By people who don't seem to know or care that the full security video shows those same ballots being placed in those cases and under the table earlier while observers watched. That even the tables being set up is on that full security footage.

I don't think ANY measures would avoid that, or the "statistical anomalies". I really think truth has become politicized to an extent where lack of real basis is not a barrier to any theory if it serves a political end.

bonzombiekitty · 27th January 2021, 03:26 PM

Originally Posted by Cavemonster

I don't think ANY measures would avoid that, or the "statistical anomalies". I really think truth has become politicized to an extent where lack of real basis is not a barrier to any theory if it serves a political end.

Like 9-11 truthers, nothing will ever satisfy them. Goalposts will keep getting moved round and round in a circle forever.

Skeptic Ginger · 27th January 2021, 03:55 PM

Originally Posted by Segnosaur

Well, according to polls taken earlier this month...

From: Vox
72 percent of likely Republican voters said they continue to question the presidential election results. Nearly three-quarters of Republicans, or 74 percent, said allegations of voter fraud have contributed to these concerns. Those are overwhelming majorities, but even among independents, 42 percent said they do not currently trust the election results.
...
While 55 percent of people said they continue to trust the electoral process in the United States, 39 percent of people said they don’t trust it, including 65 percent of Republicans, compared to 12 percent of Democrats.

So, less than half said the election was rigged, but its still a significant number (including the majority of the republican base).

I have no doubt it is currently a significant number. But it's not 50%. As far back as GW's term the country was very closely divided. (I don't recall how close the POTUS election was before that.) So I'm not particularly worried about losing the 2022 vote unless the Democrats really screw up between now and then.

I do think we should begin chipping away at the GOP until then.

Skeptic Ginger · 27th January 2021, 03:57 PM

Originally Posted by Segnosaur

Remember Goya? The company that sells canned goods aimed largely at the latin-American market? Remember when one of its executives ended up praising Trump (which caused a backlash, with threats of a consumer boycott.)

Well, looks like they might have stepped in it again.

From: The Hill
The board of directors behind Goya, the Latino food company, has voted to censure its CEO, Robert Unanue, due to his public comments backing former President Trump and his election fraud claims...Unanue’s censuring followed his comments on Fox Business on Inauguration Day that there was a “war coming” and President Biden’s election was “unverified.” "The company has never been political or politicized," the source told CNN. "He's gone from bad CEO to CEO that has imperiled the future of the company and endangered the lives of some of the shareholders.”

Censured him? Can't they just fire him?

Stacyhs · 27th January 2021, 04:03 PM

Originally Posted by Cavemonster

It makes me wonder about the utility of further security.

Sure there are SOME weaknesses that probably need to be addressed. But the core claims that I keep hearing from these MAGA doofs are just so clearly bad, that I don't think actual improvements would have changed a single thing about this particular election.

I keep seeing references to a video where votes were pulled from under the table in"suitcases". By people who don't seem to know or care that the full security video shows those same ballots being placed in those cases and under the table earlier while observers watched. That even the tables being set up is on that full security footage.

I don't think ANY measures would avoid that, or the "statistical anomalies". I really think truth has become politicized to an extent where lack of real basis is not a barrier to any theory if it serves a political end.

I agree. People see what they choose to see and believe what they choose to believe. Facts mean nothing. They really do feel entitled to their own facts.

acbytesla · 27th January 2021, 04:19 PM

There is both insanity and ignorance to the GOP distrust of elections.

1. They distrust it because they lost.
2.They live in an echo chamber that has been telling them to distrust the election.
3. They don't have a clue how elections are run. They don't understand the myriad of checks that make it close to impossible for any kind of widespread fraud. (There will always be a few votes fraudulently made. A husband filling out his wife's ballot etc)
4. The GOP has no interest in actual democracy. They want the power to keep all the power and wealth to themselves. Actual democracy would mean they would have to share.

turingtest · 27th January 2021, 04:58 PM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

There is both insanity and ignorance to the GOP distrust of elections.

1. They distrust it because they lost.
2.They live in an echo chamber that has been telling them to distrust the election.
3. They don't have a clue how elections are run. They don't understand the myriad of checks that make it close to impossible for any kind of widespread fraud. (There will always be a few votes fraudulently made. A husband filling out his wife's ballot etc)
4. The GOP has no interest in actual democracy. They want the power to keep all the power and wealth to themselves. Actual democracy would mean they would have to share.

That one, I think, is currently the main one. When you have someone like Trump saying, since he ran against Clinton, that the only way he could lose an election is by the other side cheating, and then RW media (including Fox) amplifying that meme, and a good portion of the GOP going along with it passively when they're not actively reinforcing it by actions like voting to deny legitimate results from certain states, then you're going to have a lot of folks mistaking the echo for the original static and thinking the static is somehow stronger for the repetition.

Stacyhs · 27th January 2021, 05:15 PM

Usually the nut job extremist conspiracy theorists like Taylor Greene are on the fringe of both parties but Trump brought them in from the right wing fringe and into the very center of the GOP and into power. And the spineless or selfish, ambition centered ***holes* who aided and abetted him in doing so are just as guilty as he is.

*Cruz, Graham, McCarthy, Jordan, Gaetz, Meadows, McConnell, etc

newyorkguy · 27th January 2021, 06:10 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

...As far back as GW's term the country was very closely divided. (I don't recall how close the POTUS election was before that.)...

Just for the record, in 1996:

Clinton 47.4 million votes, 379 Electoral votes
Dole 39.2 million votes, 159 Electoral votes
Perot 8.1 million votes, zero Electoral votes.

In 1992:

Clinton 44.9 million votes, 370 Electoral votes
Bush 39.1 million votes, 168 Electoral votes
Perot 19.8 million votes, zero Electoral votes.

(This would be one of Bill Clinton's political problems: 57% of the voters in the 1992 election voted for 'other than Clinton.')

In 1988:

Bush 48.9 million votes, 426 Electoral votes
Dukakis 41.8 million votes, 111 Electoral votes.

acbytesla · 27th January 2021, 06:14 PM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

There is both insanity and ignorance to the GOP distrust of elections.

1. They distrust it because they lost.
2.They live in an echo chamber that has been telling them to distrust the election.
3. They don't have a clue how elections are run. They don't understand the myriad of checks that make it close to impossible for any kind of widespread fraud. (There will always be a few votes fraudulently made. A husband filling out his wife's ballot etc)
4. The GOP has no interest in actual democracy. They want the power to keep all the power and wealth to themselves. Actual democracy would mean they would have to share.

Originally Posted by turingtest

That one, I think, is currently the main one. When you have someone like Trump saying, since he ran against Clinton, that the only way he could lose an election is by the other side cheating, and then RW media (including Fox) amplifying that meme, and a good portion of the GOP going along with it passively when they're not actively reinforcing it by actions like voting to deny legitimate results from certain states, then you're going to have a lot of folks mistaking the echo for the original static and thinking the static is somehow stronger for the repetition.

I agree. But #1 comes into play a lot. They would trust it a lot more if their guy won. Dovetails into what you said.

Bob001 · 27th January 2021, 07:56 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Censured him? Can't they just fire him?

Firing a CEO might cost millions of dollars.

SezMe · 27th January 2021, 08:21 PM

Originally Posted by Tero

If it were secret, a lot of GOP would just abstain. Even that would hurt them, and people would track down who abstained.

Depends on who counts the votes. If it's Moscow Mitch, that would give him a LOT of power: "Hey, vote for my bill or I might let slip how you voted on impeachment." If it is so0me low-level clerk, the potential for a money bribe is obvious.

I think a secret ballot is a bad idea. The GOP isn't going to convict T**** anyway, so let's make sure everyone knows how each senator voted.

SezMe · 27th January 2021, 08:22 PM

Originally Posted by Tero

They better get on with this impeachment because assorted criminal and civil cases against Trump are waiting for it to be over.

Why are the other cases on hold? Got a link?

SezMe · 27th January 2021, 08:29 PM

Originally Posted by Cavemonster

It makes me wonder about the utility of further security.<snip>

Yes, try to "fix" voter fraud is a waste of time but electoral fraud is a whole 'nother bag of worms. I hope the Biden Administration can get the voter rights bill passed because it deals with voter suppression which the GOP uses to eliminate tens of thousands of votes.

Ladewig · 27th January 2021, 09:52 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Yes, GOP lawmakers for the most part are immune to lying and being hypocrites.

But are they immune to evidence they were all complicit in an attempt to overturn a legit election?

Given that the trial has been cancelled, to me it looks like they are immune.

Quote:

I don't think the people who believe the election was rigged constitute half of the voting public. I could be wrong, but that's my current POV.

I don’t understand the importance of knowing whether the number is 45% or 55%.

Ladewig · 27th January 2021, 10:06 PM

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

A lot of their distrust could be evaporated if the USA used a single consistent voting process for each and every state, for each and every election. Said method to be the most rigorously rigging-proof one possible. Of course, it is understood that even if this was achieved, there would still be dissenters who wouldn't like the results, and would STILL rage on about election fraud. Just like now.

If you thought the folks trying to kill Congressfolk last week were scary, just wait until Congress mandates a specific voting machine.

There are a lot of people who will turn violent because they think such a move would mark the death of Democracy in America (i.e.that’s how “they” are going to rig all the votes at once).

Skeptic Ginger · 27th January 2021, 10:49 PM

Originally Posted by Ladewig

Given that the trial has been cancelled, to me it looks like they are immune.

I don’t understand the importance of knowing whether the number is 45% or 55%.

You mean impeachment? No it hasn't. Or are you talking about something else?

Tolls · 28th January 2021, 01:52 AM

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

Unlike the secret voting process used to elect them??

There's a difference.
The people we elect to represent us must be seen to actually represent us, and that involves their votes being on the record.

I know we like to think "they" will vote the way we would like if it were in secret, but I wouldn't be happy not knowing how my representative in parliament was actually voting.

Susheel · 28th January 2021, 01:55 AM

Originally Posted by Tolls

There's a difference.
The people we elect to represent us must be seen to actually represent us, and that involves their votes being on the record.

I know we like to think "they" will vote the way we would like if it were in secret, but I wouldn't be happy not knowing how my representative in parliament was actually voting.

Good point...spot on.

Norman Alexander · 28th January 2021, 03:20 AM

Originally Posted by Tolls

There's a difference.
The people we elect to represent us must be seen to actually represent us, and that involves their votes being on the record.

I know we like to think "they" will vote the way we would like if it were in secret, but I wouldn't be happy not knowing how my representative in parliament was actually voting.

I agree with the sentiment - democracy in action must be done in sunlight. It's a great goal to aim for.

But what it also does is scare the bejeesus out of the weaker politicians. Most of them won't have the intestinal fortitude to vote against their party's diktat. Because not only can you see how they vote, so can their political leaders and holders of their political fates and fortunes see how they vote. So after they get into government, that's who they will be serving, not you or their electorate.

If they had the opportunity to vote secretly then they just might pluck up the courage to properly represent, not just sheeple along as Mitch commands.

Susheel · 28th January 2021, 04:09 AM

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

...But what it also does is scare the bejeesus out of the weaker politicians. Most of them won't have the intestinal fortitude to vote against their party's diktat. Because not only can you see how they vote, so can their political leaders and holders of their political fates and fortunes see how they vote. So after they get into government, that's who they will be serving, not you or their electorate....

But consider the fact that it does not provide sufficient information about a representative to help the electorate (from either end of the political spectrum) make an informed choice at the polls.

Norman Alexander · 28th January 2021, 04:18 AM

Originally Posted by Susheel

But consider the fact that it does not provide sufficient information about a representative to help the electorate (from either end of the political spectrum) make an informed choice at the polls.

I agree. That's how it SHOULD work. But it doesn't.

Example: Lindsey Graham. Can he be relied on to vote to support his electorate? Especially recently? Or even vote a reasonably consistent line on a specific topic? Or even to vote to maintain a sense of pride in himself? Nope. He can be relied on only to vote to save his own worthless seat in the Senate. Every time. Whatever his "leaders" tell him to do, that's how he votes. Even if 10 minutes ago he voted the diametric opposite way. Because it keeps him there. And all his "leaders" can see him doing that because his vote is not private.

26th January 2021, 10:17 PM	#1721
Norman Alexander Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Gundungurra Posts: 8,801	Originally Posted by bruto Well, there was speculation that some who voted against the electoral count were afraid for themselves and families, and crazy as that ought to be, crazy trumps sane these days. Maybe not so crazy. "Nice family you got there. Shame if one of the kids had an accident..."
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

26th January 2021, 10:21 PM	#1722
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 70,273	I now read that all but five Republicans have voted against the impeachment trial, which means that it probably will not succeed.
	__________________ Please scream inside your heart.

26th January 2021, 10:23 PM	#1723
Norman Alexander Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Gundungurra Posts: 8,801	Originally Posted by arthwollipot I now read that all but five Republicans have voted against the impeachment trial, which means that it probably will not succeed. Virtue-signalling. If the voting was secret then that number might be radically different.
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

26th January 2021, 10:32 PM	#1724
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 14,681	The evidence that is going to be presented is going to make a lot of Republicans look really bad. And the GOP insistent that they should be above the law is going to make it easy to run against them in 2022.
	__________________ So what are you going to do about it, huh? What would an intellectual do? What would Plato do?

26th January 2021, 11:44 PM	#1726
bruto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy Posts: 27,768	Originally Posted by Norman Alexander Maybe not so crazy. "Nice family you got there. Shame if one of the kids had an accident..." In this case, I meant that the threats are crazy, not the threatened.
	__________________ I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver) Quand il dit "cuic" le moineau croit tout dire. (When he's tweeted the sparrow thinks he's said it all. (Jules Renard)

26th January 2021, 10:36 PM	#1725
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 86,996	Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza The evidence that is going to be presented is going to make a lot of Republicans look really bad. And the GOP insistent that they should be above the law is going to make it easy to run against them in 2022. I believe this is the goal Democrats should aim for.

27th January 2021, 06:08 AM	#1727
Fast Eddie B Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Lenoir City, TN/Mineral Bluff, GA Posts: 6,743	Originally Posted by Norman Alexander Virtue-signalling. If the voting was secret then that number might be radically different. Is it in the power of the Democrats to make the vote to convict secret?

27th January 2021, 07:14 AM	#1728
Tero Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: North American prairie Posts: 2,202	If it were secret, a lot of GOP would just abstain. Even that would hurt them, and people would track down who abstained.
	__________________ I've deleted the one blog link. You can find the humor blog by searching "the kari report blogspot." Politics blog: https://esapolitics.blogspot.com/

27th January 2021, 08:07 AM	#1729
Tero Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: North American prairie Posts: 2,202	They better get on with this impeachment because assorted criminal and civil cases against Trump are waiting for it to be over.
	__________________ I've deleted the one blog link. You can find the humor blog by searching "the kari report blogspot." Politics blog: https://esapolitics.blogspot.com/

27th January 2021, 09:17 AM	#1730
Ladewig I lost an avatar bet. Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 28,041	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger I believe this is the goal Democrats should aim for. One cannot out-Trump Trump One cannot out-hypocritize the GOP. ETA Although. It’d be interesting for a Dem to get caught and instead of profusely apologizing before resigning, they simply say “I’ve been asked to apologize. I think the best way to do that is to quote Senator So-and-so (R. Flyover State) ‘I’m sorry that you feel that way.’” MORE ETA No, I was right the first time. The Dems will never get to the point that they can close ranks to pull a Garland/Coney-Barret with even a twentieth of the aplomb of the Republicans.
	__________________ I lost an avatar bet to Doghouse Reilly. Last edited by Ladewig; 27th January 2021 at 09:47 AM.

27th January 2021, 12:08 PM	#1731
Mader Levap Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 1,576	Originally Posted by eerok They should make a three-dollar bill with Trump's picture on it. And then not accept it as legal tender. They already did.
	__________________ Sanity is overrated. / Voting for Republicans is morally equivalent to voting for Nazis in early 30's.

27th January 2021, 01:43 PM	#1732
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 86,996	Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B Is it in the power of the Democrats to make the vote to convict secret? I'm pretty sure after a voice vote any one member can call for a roll call vote and those are not secret.

27th January 2021, 01:46 PM	#1733
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 86,996	Originally Posted by Ladewig One cannot out-Trump Trump One cannot out-hypocritize the GOP.. Yes, GOP lawmakers for the most part are immune to lying and being hypocrites. But are they immune to evidence they were all complicit in an attempt to overturn a legit election? I don't think the people who believe the election was rigged constitute half of the voting public. I could be wrong, but that's my current POV.

27th January 2021, 02:21 PM	#1734
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 50,334	Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B Is it in the power of the Democrats to make the vote to convict secret? No, and even if it were a secret vote in congress will be a horrible,horrible, precedent.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

27th January 2021, 02:52 PM	#1735
Segnosaur Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada, eh? Posts: 17,122	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger Yes, GOP lawmakers for the most part are immune to lying and being hypocrites. But are they immune to evidence they were all complicit in an attempt to overturn a legit election? I don't think the people who believe the election was rigged constitute half of the voting public. I could be wrong, but that's my current POV. Well, according to polls taken earlier this month... From: Vox 72 percent of likely Republican voters said they continue to question the presidential election results. Nearly three-quarters of Republicans, or 74 percent, said allegations of voter fraud have contributed to these concerns. Those are overwhelming majorities, but even among independents, 42 percent said they do not currently trust the election results. ... While 55 percent of people said they continue to trust the electoral process in the United States, 39 percent of people said they don’t trust it, including 65 percent of Republicans, compared to 12 percent of Democrats. So, less than half said the election was rigged, but its still a significant number (including the majority of the republican base).
	__________________ Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu We are Groot - Groot

27th January 2021, 02:57 PM	#1736
Segnosaur Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada, eh? Posts: 17,122	Remember Goya? The company that sells canned goods aimed largely at the latin-American market? Remember when one of its executives ended up praising Trump (which caused a backlash, with threats of a consumer boycott.) Well, looks like they might have stepped in it again. From: The Hill The board of directors behind Goya, the Latino food company, has voted to censure its CEO, Robert Unanue, due to his public comments backing former President Trump and his election fraud claims...Unanue’s censuring followed his comments on Fox Business on Inauguration Day that there was a “war coming” and President Biden’s election was “unverified.” "The company has never been political or politicized," the source told CNN. "He's gone from bad CEO to CEO that has imperiled the future of the company and endangered the lives of some of the shareholders.”
	__________________ Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu We are Groot - Groot

27th January 2021, 03:08 PM	#1737
Norman Alexander Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Gundungurra Posts: 8,801	Originally Posted by Segnosaur Well, according to polls taken earlier this month... From: Vox 72 percent of likely Republican voters said they continue to question the presidential election results. Nearly three-quarters of Republicans, or 74 percent, said allegations of voter fraud have contributed to these concerns. Those are overwhelming majorities, but even among independents, 42 percent said they do not currently trust the election results. ... While 55 percent of people said they continue to trust the electoral process in the United States, 39 percent of people said they don’t trust it, including 65 percent of Republicans, compared to 12 percent of Democrats. So, less than half said the election was rigged, but its still a significant number (including the majority of the republican base). A lot of their distrust could be evaporated if the USA used a single consistent voting process for each and every state, for each and every election. Said method to be the most rigorously rigging-proof one possible. Of course, it is understood that even if this was achieved, there would still be dissenters who wouldn't like the results, and would STILL rage on about election fraud. Just like now.
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

27th January 2021, 03:09 PM	#1738
Norman Alexander Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Gundungurra Posts: 8,801	Originally Posted by dudalb No, and even if it were a secret vote in congress will be a horrible,horrible, precedent. Unlike the secret voting process used to elect them??
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

27th January 2021, 03:15 PM	#1739
Cavemonster Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 6,534	Originally Posted by Norman Alexander A lot of their distrust could be evaporated if the USA used a single consistent voting process for each and every state, for each and every election. Said method to be the most rigorously rigging-proof one possible. Of course, it is understood that even if this was achieved, there would still be dissenters who wouldn't like the results, and would STILL rage on about election fraud. Just like now. It makes me wonder about the utility of further security. Sure there are SOME weaknesses that probably need to be addressed. But the core claims that I keep hearing from these MAGA doofs are just so clearly bad, that I don't think actual improvements would have changed a single thing about this particular election. I keep seeing references to a video where votes were pulled from under the table in"suitcases". By people who don't seem to know or care that the full security video shows those same ballots being placed in those cases and under the table earlier while observers watched. That even the tables being set up is on that full security footage. I don't think ANY measures would avoid that, or the "statistical anomalies". I really think truth has become politicized to an extent where lack of real basis is not a barrier to any theory if it serves a political end.
Cavemonster Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 6,534	__________________ The weakness of all Utopias is this, ... They first assume that no man will want more than his share, and then are very ingenious in explaining whether his share will be delivered by motorcar or balloon. -G.K. CHESTERTON

27th January 2021, 03:26 PM	#1740
bonzombiekitty Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 1,719	Originally Posted by Cavemonster I don't think ANY measures would avoid that, or the "statistical anomalies". I really think truth has become politicized to an extent where lack of real basis is not a barrier to any theory if it serves a political end. Like 9-11 truthers, nothing will ever satisfy them. Goalposts will keep getting moved round and round in a circle forever.

27th January 2021, 03:55 PM	#1741
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 86,996	Originally Posted by Segnosaur Well, according to polls taken earlier this month... From: Vox 72 percent of likely Republican voters said they continue to question the presidential election results. Nearly three-quarters of Republicans, or 74 percent, said allegations of voter fraud have contributed to these concerns. Those are overwhelming majorities, but even among independents, 42 percent said they do not currently trust the election results. ... While 55 percent of people said they continue to trust the electoral process in the United States, 39 percent of people said they don’t trust it, including 65 percent of Republicans, compared to 12 percent of Democrats. So, less than half said the election was rigged, but its still a significant number (including the majority of the republican base). I have no doubt it is currently a significant number. But it's not 50%. As far back as GW's term the country was very closely divided. (I don't recall how close the POTUS election was before that.) So I'm not particularly worried about losing the 2022 vote unless the Democrats really screw up between now and then. I do think we should begin chipping away at the GOP until then.

27th January 2021, 03:57 PM	#1742
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 86,996	Originally Posted by Segnosaur Remember Goya? The company that sells canned goods aimed largely at the latin-American market? Remember when one of its executives ended up praising Trump (which caused a backlash, with threats of a consumer boycott.) Well, looks like they might have stepped in it again. From: The Hill The board of directors behind Goya, the Latino food company, has voted to censure its CEO, Robert Unanue, due to his public comments backing former President Trump and his election fraud claims...Unanue’s censuring followed his comments on Fox Business on Inauguration Day that there was a “war coming” and President Biden’s election was “unverified.” "The company has never been political or politicized," the source told CNN. "He's gone from bad CEO to CEO that has imperiled the future of the company and endangered the lives of some of the shareholders.” Censured him? Can't they just fire him?

27th January 2021, 04:03 PM	#1743
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 18,019	Originally Posted by Cavemonster It makes me wonder about the utility of further security. Sure there are SOME weaknesses that probably need to be addressed. But the core claims that I keep hearing from these MAGA doofs are just so clearly bad, that I don't think actual improvements would have changed a single thing about this particular election. I keep seeing references to a video where votes were pulled from under the table in"suitcases". By people who don't seem to know or care that the full security video shows those same ballots being placed in those cases and under the table earlier while observers watched. That even the tables being set up is on that full security footage. I don't think ANY measures would avoid that, or the "statistical anomalies". I really think truth has become politicized to an extent where lack of real basis is not a barrier to any theory if it serves a political end. I agree. People see what they choose to see and believe what they choose to believe. Facts mean nothing. They really do feel entitled to their own facts.

27th January 2021, 04:19 PM	#1744
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 28,302	There is both insanity and ignorance to the GOP distrust of elections. 1. They distrust it because they lost. 2.They live in an echo chamber that has been telling them to distrust the election. 3. They don't have a clue how elections are run. They don't understand the myriad of checks that make it close to impossible for any kind of widespread fraud. (There will always be a few votes fraudulently made. A husband filling out his wife's ballot etc) 4. The GOP has no interest in actual democracy. They want the power to keep all the power and wealth to themselves. Actual democracy would mean they would have to share.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

27th January 2021, 04:58 PM	#1745
turingtest Mistral, mistral wind... Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Embedded, reporting from Mississippi Posts: 4,678	Originally Posted by acbytesla There is both insanity and ignorance to the GOP distrust of elections. 1. They distrust it because they lost. 2.They live in an echo chamber that has been telling them to distrust the election. 3. They don't have a clue how elections are run. They don't understand the myriad of checks that make it close to impossible for any kind of widespread fraud. (There will always be a few votes fraudulently made. A husband filling out his wife's ballot etc) 4. The GOP has no interest in actual democracy. They want the power to keep all the power and wealth to themselves. Actual democracy would mean they would have to share. That one, I think, is currently the main one. When you have someone like Trump saying, since he ran against Clinton, that the only way he could lose an election is by the other side cheating, and then RW media (including Fox) amplifying that meme, and a good portion of the GOP going along with it passively when they're not actively reinforcing it by actions like voting to deny legitimate results from certain states, then you're going to have a lot of folks mistaking the echo for the original static and thinking the static is somehow stronger for the repetition.
	__________________ I'm tired of the bombs, tired of the bullets, tired of the crazies on TV; I'm the aviator, a dream's a dream whatever it seems Deep Purple- "The Aviator" Life was a short shelf that came with bookends- Stephen King Last edited by turingtest; 27th January 2021 at 05:16 PM. Reason: clarify

27th January 2021, 05:15 PM	#1746
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 18,019	Usually the nut job extremist conspiracy theorists like Taylor Greene are on the fringe of both parties but Trump brought them in from the right wing fringe and into the very center of the GOP and into power. And the spineless or selfish, ambition centered **holes who aided and abetted him in doing so are just as guilty as he is. *Cruz, Graham, McCarthy, Jordan, Gaetz, Meadows, McConnell, etc

27th January 2021, 06:10 PM	#1747
newyorkguy Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: NY Posts: 11,494	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger ...As far back as GW's term the country was very closely divided. (I don't recall how close the POTUS election was before that.)... Just for the record, in 1996: Clinton 47.4 million votes, 379 Electoral votes Dole 39.2 million votes, 159 Electoral votes Perot 8.1 million votes, zero Electoral votes. In 1992: Clinton 44.9 million votes, 370 Electoral votes Bush 39.1 million votes, 168 Electoral votes Perot 19.8 million votes, zero Electoral votes. (This would be one of Bill Clinton's political problems: 57% of the voters in the 1992 election voted for 'other than Clinton.') In 1988: Bush 48.9 million votes, 426 Electoral votes Dukakis 41.8 million votes, 111 Electoral votes.

27th January 2021, 06:14 PM	#1748
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 28,302	Originally Posted by acbytesla There is both insanity and ignorance to the GOP distrust of elections. 1. They distrust it because they lost. 2.They live in an echo chamber that has been telling them to distrust the election. 3. They don't have a clue how elections are run. They don't understand the myriad of checks that make it close to impossible for any kind of widespread fraud. (There will always be a few votes fraudulently made. A husband filling out his wife's ballot etc) 4. The GOP has no interest in actual democracy. They want the power to keep all the power and wealth to themselves. Actual democracy would mean they would have to share. Originally Posted by turingtest That one, I think, is currently the main one. When you have someone like Trump saying, since he ran against Clinton, that the only way he could lose an election is by the other side cheating, and then RW media (including Fox) amplifying that meme, and a good portion of the GOP going along with it passively when they're not actively reinforcing it by actions like voting to deny legitimate results from certain states, then you're going to have a lot of folks mistaking the echo for the original static and thinking the static is somehow stronger for the repetition. I agree. But #1 comes into play a lot. They would trust it a lot more if their guy won. Dovetails into what you said.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. . Last edited by acbytesla; 27th January 2021 at 06:21 PM.

27th January 2021, 07:56 PM	#1749
Bob001 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: US of A Posts: 12,641	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger Censured him? Can't they just fire him? Firing a CEO might cost millions of dollars.

27th January 2021, 08:21 PM	#1750
SezMe post-pre-born Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Santa Barbara, CA Posts: 24,996	Originally Posted by Tero If it were secret, a lot of GOP would just abstain. Even that would hurt them, and people would track down who abstained. Depends on who counts the votes. If it's Moscow Mitch, that would give him a LOT of power: "Hey, vote for my bill or I might let slip how you voted on impeachment." If it is so0me low-level clerk, the potential for a money bribe is obvious. I think a secret ballot is a bad idea. The GOP isn't going to convict T**** anyway, so let's make sure everyone knows how each senator voted.

27th January 2021, 08:22 PM	#1751
SezMe post-pre-born Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Santa Barbara, CA Posts: 24,996	Originally Posted by Tero They better get on with this impeachment because assorted criminal and civil cases against Trump are waiting for it to be over. Why are the other cases on hold? Got a link?

27th January 2021, 08:29 PM	#1752
SezMe post-pre-born Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Santa Barbara, CA Posts: 24,996	Originally Posted by Cavemonster It makes me wonder about the utility of further security.<snip> Yes, try to "fix" voter fraud is a waste of time but electoral fraud is a whole 'nother bag of worms. I hope the Biden Administration can get the voter rights bill passed because it deals with voter suppression which the GOP uses to eliminate tens of thousands of votes.

27th January 2021, 09:52 PM	#1753
Ladewig I lost an avatar bet. Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 28,041	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger Yes, GOP lawmakers for the most part are immune to lying and being hypocrites. But are they immune to evidence they were all complicit in an attempt to overturn a legit election? Given that the trial has been cancelled, to me it looks like they are immune. Quote: I don't think the people who believe the election was rigged constitute half of the voting public. I could be wrong, but that's my current POV. I don’t understand the importance of knowing whether the number is 45% or 55%.
	__________________ I lost an avatar bet to Doghouse Reilly.

27th January 2021, 10:06 PM	#1754
Ladewig I lost an avatar bet. Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 28,041	Originally Posted by Norman Alexander A lot of their distrust could be evaporated if the USA used a single consistent voting process for each and every state, for each and every election. Said method to be the most rigorously rigging-proof one possible. Of course, it is understood that even if this was achieved, there would still be dissenters who wouldn't like the results, and would STILL rage on about election fraud. Just like now. If you thought the folks trying to kill Congressfolk last week were scary, just wait until Congress mandates a specific voting machine. There are a lot of people who will turn violent because they think such a move would mark the death of Democracy in America (i.e.that’s how “they” are going to rig all the votes at once).
	__________________ I lost an avatar bet to Doghouse Reilly.

27th January 2021, 10:49 PM	#1755
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 86,996	Originally Posted by Ladewig Given that the trial has been cancelled, to me it looks like they are immune. I don’t understand the importance of knowing whether the number is 45% or 55%. You mean impeachment? No it hasn't. Or are you talking about something else?