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Tags donald trump , Trump administration , Trump controversies

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Old 26th January 2021, 10:17 PM   #1721
Norman Alexander
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Well, there was speculation that some who voted against the electoral count were afraid for themselves and families, and crazy as that ought to be, crazy trumps sane these days.
Maybe not so crazy. "Nice family you got there. Shame if one of the kids had an accident..."
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Old 26th January 2021, 10:21 PM   #1722
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I now read that all but five Republicans have voted against the impeachment trial, which means that it probably will not succeed.
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Old 26th January 2021, 10:23 PM   #1723
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I now read that all but five Republicans have voted against the impeachment trial, which means that it probably will not succeed.
Virtue-signalling. If the voting was secret then that number might be radically different.
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Old 26th January 2021, 10:32 PM   #1724
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The evidence that is going to be presented is going to make a lot of Republicans look really bad.
And the GOP insistent that they should be above the law is going to make it easy to run against them in 2022.
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Old 26th January 2021, 10:36 PM   #1725
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
The evidence that is going to be presented is going to make a lot of Republicans look really bad.
And the GOP insistent that they should be above the law is going to make it easy to run against them in 2022.
I believe this is the goal Democrats should aim for.
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Old 26th January 2021, 11:44 PM   #1726
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Maybe not so crazy. "Nice family you got there. Shame if one of the kids had an accident..."
In this case, I meant that the threats are crazy, not the threatened.
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Old 27th January 2021, 06:08 AM   #1727
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Virtue-signalling. If the voting was secret then that number might be radically different.
Is it in the power of the Democrats to make the vote to convict secret?
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Old 27th January 2021, 07:14 AM   #1728
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If it were secret, a lot of GOP would just abstain. Even that would hurt them, and people would track down who abstained.
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Old 27th January 2021, 08:07 AM   #1729
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They better get on with this impeachment because assorted criminal and civil cases against Trump are waiting for it to be over.
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Old 27th January 2021, 09:17 AM   #1730
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I believe this is the goal Democrats should aim for.
One cannot out-Trump Trump
One cannot out-hypocritize the GOP.

ETA
Although. It’d be interesting for a Dem to get caught and instead of profusely apologizing before resigning, they simply say “I’ve been asked to apologize. I think the best way to do that is to quote Senator So-and-so (R. Flyover State) ‘I’m sorry that you feel that way.’”

MORE ETA
No, I was right the first time. The Dems will never get to the point that they can close ranks to pull a Garland/Coney-Barret with even a twentieth of the aplomb of the Republicans.
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Old 27th January 2021, 12:08 PM   #1731
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
They should make a three-dollar bill with Trump's picture on it. And then not accept it as legal tender.
They already did.

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Old 27th January 2021, 01:43 PM   #1732
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
Is it in the power of the Democrats to make the vote to convict secret?
I'm pretty sure after a voice vote any one member can call for a roll call vote and those are not secret.
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Old 27th January 2021, 01:46 PM   #1733
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Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
One cannot out-Trump Trump
One cannot out-hypocritize the GOP..
Yes, GOP lawmakers for the most part are immune to lying and being hypocrites.

But are they immune to evidence they were all complicit in an attempt to overturn a legit election?

I don't think the people who believe the election was rigged constitute half of the voting public. I could be wrong, but that's my current POV.
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Old 27th January 2021, 02:21 PM   #1734
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
Is it in the power of the Democrats to make the vote to convict secret?
No, and even if it were a secret vote in congress will be a horrible,horrible, precedent.
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Old 27th January 2021, 02:52 PM   #1735
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Yes, GOP lawmakers for the most part are immune to lying and being hypocrites.

But are they immune to evidence they were all complicit in an attempt to overturn a legit election?

I don't think the people who believe the election was rigged constitute half of the voting public. I could be wrong, but that's my current POV.
Well, according to polls taken earlier this month...

From: Vox
72 percent of likely Republican voters said they continue to question the presidential election results. Nearly three-quarters of Republicans, or 74 percent, said allegations of voter fraud have contributed to these concerns. Those are overwhelming majorities, but even among independents, 42 percent said they do not currently trust the election results.
...
While 55 percent of people said they continue to trust the electoral process in the United States, 39 percent of people said they don’t trust it, including 65 percent of Republicans, compared to 12 percent of Democrats.


So, less than half said the election was rigged, but its still a significant number (including the majority of the republican base).
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Old 27th January 2021, 02:57 PM   #1736
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Remember Goya? The company that sells canned goods aimed largely at the latin-American market? Remember when one of its executives ended up praising Trump (which caused a backlash, with threats of a consumer boycott.)

Well, looks like they might have stepped in it again.

From: The Hill
The board of directors behind Goya, the Latino food company, has voted to censure its CEO, Robert Unanue, due to his public comments backing former President Trump and his election fraud claims...Unanue’s censuring followed his comments on Fox Business on Inauguration Day that there was a “war coming” and President Biden’s election was “unverified.” "The company has never been political or politicized," the source told CNN. "He's gone from bad CEO to CEO that has imperiled the future of the company and endangered the lives of some of the shareholders.”
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Old 27th January 2021, 03:08 PM   #1737
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Well, according to polls taken earlier this month...

From: Vox
72 percent of likely Republican voters said they continue to question the presidential election results. Nearly three-quarters of Republicans, or 74 percent, said allegations of voter fraud have contributed to these concerns. Those are overwhelming majorities, but even among independents, 42 percent said they do not currently trust the election results.
...
While 55 percent of people said they continue to trust the electoral process in the United States, 39 percent of people said they don’t trust it, including 65 percent of Republicans, compared to 12 percent of Democrats.


So, less than half said the election was rigged, but its still a significant number (including the majority of the republican base).
A lot of their distrust could be evaporated if the USA used a single consistent voting process for each and every state, for each and every election. Said method to be the most rigorously rigging-proof one possible. Of course, it is understood that even if this was achieved, there would still be dissenters who wouldn't like the results, and would STILL rage on about election fraud. Just like now.
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Old 27th January 2021, 03:09 PM   #1738
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
No, and even if it were a secret vote in congress will be a horrible,horrible, precedent.
Unlike the secret voting process used to elect them??
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Old 27th January 2021, 03:15 PM   #1739
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
A lot of their distrust could be evaporated if the USA used a single consistent voting process for each and every state, for each and every election. Said method to be the most rigorously rigging-proof one possible. Of course, it is understood that even if this was achieved, there would still be dissenters who wouldn't like the results, and would STILL rage on about election fraud. Just like now.
It makes me wonder about the utility of further security.

Sure there are SOME weaknesses that probably need to be addressed. But the core claims that I keep hearing from these MAGA doofs are just so clearly bad, that I don't think actual improvements would have changed a single thing about this particular election.

I keep seeing references to a video where votes were pulled from under the table in"suitcases". By people who don't seem to know or care that the full security video shows those same ballots being placed in those cases and under the table earlier while observers watched. That even the tables being set up is on that full security footage.

I don't think ANY measures would avoid that, or the "statistical anomalies". I really think truth has become politicized to an extent where lack of real basis is not a barrier to any theory if it serves a political end.
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Old 27th January 2021, 03:26 PM   #1740
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
I don't think ANY measures would avoid that, or the "statistical anomalies". I really think truth has become politicized to an extent where lack of real basis is not a barrier to any theory if it serves a political end.
Like 9-11 truthers, nothing will ever satisfy them. Goalposts will keep getting moved round and round in a circle forever.
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Old 27th January 2021, 03:55 PM   #1741
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Well, according to polls taken earlier this month...

From: Vox
72 percent of likely Republican voters said they continue to question the presidential election results. Nearly three-quarters of Republicans, or 74 percent, said allegations of voter fraud have contributed to these concerns. Those are overwhelming majorities, but even among independents, 42 percent said they do not currently trust the election results.
...
While 55 percent of people said they continue to trust the electoral process in the United States, 39 percent of people said they don’t trust it, including 65 percent of Republicans, compared to 12 percent of Democrats.


So, less than half said the election was rigged, but its still a significant number (including the majority of the republican base).
I have no doubt it is currently a significant number. But it's not 50%. As far back as GW's term the country was very closely divided. (I don't recall how close the POTUS election was before that.) So I'm not particularly worried about losing the 2022 vote unless the Democrats really screw up between now and then.

I do think we should begin chipping away at the GOP until then.
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Old 27th January 2021, 03:57 PM   #1742
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Remember Goya? The company that sells canned goods aimed largely at the latin-American market? Remember when one of its executives ended up praising Trump (which caused a backlash, with threats of a consumer boycott.)

Well, looks like they might have stepped in it again.

From: The Hill
The board of directors behind Goya, the Latino food company, has voted to censure its CEO, Robert Unanue, due to his public comments backing former President Trump and his election fraud claims...Unanue’s censuring followed his comments on Fox Business on Inauguration Day that there was a “war coming” and President Biden’s election was “unverified.” "The company has never been political or politicized," the source told CNN. "He's gone from bad CEO to CEO that has imperiled the future of the company and endangered the lives of some of the shareholders.”
Censured him? Can't they just fire him?
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Old 27th January 2021, 04:03 PM   #1743
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
It makes me wonder about the utility of further security.

Sure there are SOME weaknesses that probably need to be addressed. But the core claims that I keep hearing from these MAGA doofs are just so clearly bad, that I don't think actual improvements would have changed a single thing about this particular election.

I keep seeing references to a video where votes were pulled from under the table in"suitcases". By people who don't seem to know or care that the full security video shows those same ballots being placed in those cases and under the table earlier while observers watched. That even the tables being set up is on that full security footage.

I don't think ANY measures would avoid that, or the "statistical anomalies". I really think truth has become politicized to an extent where lack of real basis is not a barrier to any theory if it serves a political end.
I agree. People see what they choose to see and believe what they choose to believe. Facts mean nothing. They really do feel entitled to their own facts.
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Old 27th January 2021, 04:19 PM   #1744
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There is both insanity and ignorance to the GOP distrust of elections.

1. They distrust it because they lost.
2.They live in an echo chamber that has been telling them to distrust the election.
3. They don't have a clue how elections are run. They don't understand the myriad of checks that make it close to impossible for any kind of widespread fraud. (There will always be a few votes fraudulently made. A husband filling out his wife's ballot etc)
4. The GOP has no interest in actual democracy. They want the power to keep all the power and wealth to themselves. Actual democracy would mean they would have to share.
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Old 27th January 2021, 04:58 PM   #1745
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
There is both insanity and ignorance to the GOP distrust of elections.

1. They distrust it because they lost.
2.They live in an echo chamber that has been telling them to distrust the election.
3. They don't have a clue how elections are run. They don't understand the myriad of checks that make it close to impossible for any kind of widespread fraud. (There will always be a few votes fraudulently made. A husband filling out his wife's ballot etc)
4. The GOP has no interest in actual democracy. They want the power to keep all the power and wealth to themselves. Actual democracy would mean they would have to share.
That one, I think, is currently the main one. When you have someone like Trump saying, since he ran against Clinton, that the only way he could lose an election is by the other side cheating, and then RW media (including Fox) amplifying that meme, and a good portion of the GOP going along with it passively when they're not actively reinforcing it by actions like voting to deny legitimate results from certain states, then you're going to have a lot of folks mistaking the echo for the original static and thinking the static is somehow stronger for the repetition.
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Old 27th January 2021, 05:15 PM   #1746
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Usually the nut job extremist conspiracy theorists like Taylor Greene are on the fringe of both parties but Trump brought them in from the right wing fringe and into the very center of the GOP and into power. And the spineless or selfish, ambition centered ***holes* who aided and abetted him in doing so are just as guilty as he is.

*Cruz, Graham, McCarthy, Jordan, Gaetz, Meadows, McConnell, etc
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Old 27th January 2021, 06:10 PM   #1747
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
...As far back as GW's term the country was very closely divided. (I don't recall how close the POTUS election was before that.)...
Just for the record, in 1996:
  • Clinton 47.4 million votes, 379 Electoral votes
  • Dole 39.2 million votes, 159 Electoral votes
  • Perot 8.1 million votes, zero Electoral votes.

In 1992:
  • Clinton 44.9 million votes, 370 Electoral votes
  • Bush 39.1 million votes, 168 Electoral votes
  • Perot 19.8 million votes, zero Electoral votes.
(This would be one of Bill Clinton's political problems: 57% of the voters in the 1992 election voted for 'other than Clinton.')

In 1988:
  • Bush 48.9 million votes, 426 Electoral votes
  • Dukakis 41.8 million votes, 111 Electoral votes.
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Old 27th January 2021, 06:14 PM   #1748
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
There is both insanity and ignorance to the GOP distrust of elections.

1. They distrust it because they lost.
2.They live in an echo chamber that has been telling them to distrust the election.
3. They don't have a clue how elections are run. They don't understand the myriad of checks that make it close to impossible for any kind of widespread fraud. (There will always be a few votes fraudulently made. A husband filling out his wife's ballot etc)
4. The GOP has no interest in actual democracy. They want the power to keep all the power and wealth to themselves. Actual democracy would mean they would have to share.
Originally Posted by turingtest View Post
That one, I think, is currently the main one. When you have someone like Trump saying, since he ran against Clinton, that the only way he could lose an election is by the other side cheating, and then RW media (including Fox) amplifying that meme, and a good portion of the GOP going along with it passively when they're not actively reinforcing it by actions like voting to deny legitimate results from certain states, then you're going to have a lot of folks mistaking the echo for the original static and thinking the static is somehow stronger for the repetition.
I agree. But #1 comes into play a lot. They would trust it a lot more if their guy won. Dovetails into what you said.
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Old 27th January 2021, 07:56 PM   #1749
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Censured him? Can't they just fire him?
Firing a CEO might cost millions of dollars.
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Old 27th January 2021, 08:21 PM   #1750
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Originally Posted by Tero View Post
If it were secret, a lot of GOP would just abstain. Even that would hurt them, and people would track down who abstained.
Depends on who counts the votes. If it's Moscow Mitch, that would give him a LOT of power: "Hey, vote for my bill or I might let slip how you voted on impeachment." If it is so0me low-level clerk, the potential for a money bribe is obvious.

I think a secret ballot is a bad idea. The GOP isn't going to convict T**** anyway, so let's make sure everyone knows how each senator voted.
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Old 27th January 2021, 08:22 PM   #1751
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Originally Posted by Tero View Post
They better get on with this impeachment because assorted criminal and civil cases against Trump are waiting for it to be over.
Why are the other cases on hold? Got a link?
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Old 27th January 2021, 08:29 PM   #1752
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
It makes me wonder about the utility of further security.<snip>
Yes, try to "fix" voter fraud is a waste of time but electoral fraud is a whole 'nother bag of worms. I hope the Biden Administration can get the voter rights bill passed because it deals with voter suppression which the GOP uses to eliminate tens of thousands of votes.
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Old 27th January 2021, 09:52 PM   #1753
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Yes, GOP lawmakers for the most part are immune to lying and being hypocrites.

But are they immune to evidence they were all complicit in an attempt to overturn a legit election?
Given that the trial has been cancelled, to me it looks like they are immune.

Quote:
I don't think the people who believe the election was rigged constitute half of the voting public. I could be wrong, but that's my current POV.
I don’t understand the importance of knowing whether the number is 45% or 55%.
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Old 27th January 2021, 10:06 PM   #1754
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
A lot of their distrust could be evaporated if the USA used a single consistent voting process for each and every state, for each and every election. Said method to be the most rigorously rigging-proof one possible. Of course, it is understood that even if this was achieved, there would still be dissenters who wouldn't like the results, and would STILL rage on about election fraud. Just like now.
If you thought the folks trying to kill Congressfolk last week were scary, just wait until Congress mandates a specific voting machine.

There are a lot of people who will turn violent because they think such a move would mark the death of Democracy in America (i.e.that’s how “they” are going to rig all the votes at once).
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Old 27th January 2021, 10:49 PM   #1755
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Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
Given that the trial has been cancelled, to me it looks like they are immune.

I don’t understand the importance of knowing whether the number is 45% or 55%.
You mean impeachment? No it hasn't. Or are you talking about something else?
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Old 28th January 2021, 01:52 AM   #1756
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Unlike the secret voting process used to elect them??
There's a difference.
The people we elect to represent us must be seen to actually represent us, and that involves their votes being on the record.

I know we like to think "they" will vote the way we would like if it were in secret, but I wouldn't be happy not knowing how my representative in parliament was actually voting.
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Old 28th January 2021, 01:55 AM   #1757
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
There's a difference.
The people we elect to represent us must be seen to actually represent us, and that involves their votes being on the record.

I know we like to think "they" will vote the way we would like if it were in secret, but I wouldn't be happy not knowing how my representative in parliament was actually voting.
Good point...spot on.
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Old 28th January 2021, 03:20 AM   #1758
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
There's a difference.
The people we elect to represent us must be seen to actually represent us, and that involves their votes being on the record.

I know we like to think "they" will vote the way we would like if it were in secret, but I wouldn't be happy not knowing how my representative in parliament was actually voting.
I agree with the sentiment - democracy in action must be done in sunlight. It's a great goal to aim for.

But what it also does is scare the bejeesus out of the weaker politicians. Most of them won't have the intestinal fortitude to vote against their party's diktat. Because not only can you see how they vote, so can their political leaders and holders of their political fates and fortunes see how they vote. So after they get into government, that's who they will be serving, not you or their electorate.

If they had the opportunity to vote secretly then they just might pluck up the courage to properly represent, not just sheeple along as Mitch commands.
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Old 28th January 2021, 04:09 AM   #1759
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
...But what it also does is scare the bejeesus out of the weaker politicians. Most of them won't have the intestinal fortitude to vote against their party's diktat. Because not only can you see how they vote, so can their political leaders and holders of their political fates and fortunes see how they vote. So after they get into government, that's who they will be serving, not you or their electorate....
But consider the fact that it does not provide sufficient information about a representative to help the electorate (from either end of the political spectrum) make an informed choice at the polls.
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Old 28th January 2021, 04:18 AM   #1760
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Originally Posted by Susheel View Post
But consider the fact that it does not provide sufficient information about a representative to help the electorate (from either end of the political spectrum) make an informed choice at the polls.
I agree. That's how it SHOULD work. But it doesn't.

Example: Lindsey Graham. Can he be relied on to vote to support his electorate? Especially recently? Or even vote a reasonably consistent line on a specific topic? Or even to vote to maintain a sense of pride in himself? Nope. He can be relied on only to vote to save his own worthless seat in the Senate. Every time. Whatever his "leaders" tell him to do, that's how he votes. Even if 10 minutes ago he voted the diametric opposite way. Because it keeps him there. And all his "leaders" can see him doing that because his vote is not private.
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