IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags police incidents , police issues , police misconduct charges

Reply
Old 16th September 2020, 10:14 AM   #2241
Distracted1
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 5,458
Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Somehow most people manage not to get killed by serial killers. The likelihood of any specific individual being killed by a serial killer is infinitesimal. There is therefore no need to do anything about serial killers.

Dave
If doing less about serial killers allows us to reduce other crime by a significant enough factor, then by all means stop wasting so much effort on serial killers.
__________________
The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.
Distracted1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2020, 10:14 AM   #2242
SuburbanTurkey
Philosopher
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 7,962
Originally Posted by chrispy View Post
Getting closer..
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...mg&imgid=34215

Edited by zooterkin:  Edited for rule 10 in image.
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by zooterkin; 16th September 2020 at 10:24 AM.
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2020, 10:15 AM   #2243
Distracted1
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 5,458
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
See my post above. I really can't understand why you don't want your police officers to be held to higher standards than non-police. It seems rather arse about tit to me.
They already are.
__________________
The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.
Distracted1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2020, 10:16 AM   #2244
shuttlt
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 7,314
Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
I wonder what the ratio is of cases of someone pulling a gun versus pulling out a wallet.
Depends on the circumstances, there is always more information available in the moment than that. A compliant person reaching for their wallet really isn't typical of the cases of unarmed people being killed by police. There is almost always non-compliance and aggression/violence leading up to it from the person who got shot.
shuttlt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2020, 10:18 AM   #2245
shuttlt
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 7,314
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
You are a credit to the forum.
shuttlt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2020, 10:20 AM   #2246
shuttlt
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 7,314
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I find your asymmetrical assessment of "reasonable" fear quite strange.
It's not asymmetrical.
shuttlt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2020, 10:34 AM   #2247
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 30,662
Yes, yes we all know that all this talk of killing police is making whatever side of the table SuburbanTurkey is sat at raise a few inches. You've found an extremist for the other side, good for you. Here's your cookie.

That doesn't change the fact that your "LOL what's the big deal?" attitude toward unlawful police killings is not warranted.
__________________
Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question."
Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..."
Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."

Last edited by JoeMorgue; 16th September 2020 at 10:37 AM.
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2020, 10:35 AM   #2248
Bob001
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 12,628
Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
.....
That would be ridiculous. Lets imagine the final scene in falling down where it turns out Michael Douglas only has a water pistol. Are you saying that the cop there should be off to prison?
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

You understand that's not a documentary, right? And as I remember it, the Douglas character was known to have committed multiple crimes before the attempt to arrest him. What's depicted is suicide by cop, and that's not what we're talking about here.

And Robert Duvall doesn't open fire until he actually sees a "gun." He doesn't guess about what might be in Douglas' pocket.

Last edited by Bob001; 16th September 2020 at 10:36 AM.
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2020, 10:37 AM   #2249
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 30,662
Yeah Duval didn't give Douglas 128 warning shots while he was still in his car at the beginning of film.
__________________
Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question."
Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..."
Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2020, 10:40 AM   #2250
SuburbanTurkey
Philosopher
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 7,962
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Yes, yes we all know that all this talk of killing police is making whatever side of the table SuburbanTurkey is sat at raise a few inches. You've found an extremist for the other side, good for you. Here's your cookie.

That doesn't change the fact that your "LOL what's the big deal?" attitude toward unlawful police killings is not warranted.
MLK Jr said it best:

Quote:
A volley of gunfire through the passenger window of a cop car is the language of the unheard
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2020, 10:42 AM   #2251
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 30,662
Hmmmm edgy.
__________________
Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question."
Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..."
Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2020, 10:44 AM   #2252
SuburbanTurkey
Philosopher
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 7,962
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Hmmmm edgy.
After all these posts in glee about injured protesters, it's nice to cut a bit loose when the shoe's on the other foot.

I have to admit, gunning down random cops in cold blood is not actually a course of action I'd recommend. I just find myself not really caring at this point. Something's gotta give, nothing else has worked. Maybe a few dead cops will change attitudes.

For all we know these cops were hit by the criminal gang of deputies in the LASD in Compton. A cop whistleblower found a dead rat on his doorstep, and I get the feeling "the executioners" aren't afraid of a bit of murder to protect themselves.
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 16th September 2020 at 10:47 AM.
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2020, 10:55 AM   #2253
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 31,880
Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
I wonder what the ratio is of cases of someone pulling a gun versus pulling out a wallet.
How about when the cop asks you for your wallet then shoots when you reach for it?
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2020, 11:02 AM   #2254
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 96,979
Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
They already are.
Not according to you or Shutit. You are both saying that non police have to have more restraint than police officers and the reasonable criteria is higher for the non police.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2020, 11:02 AM   #2255
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 31,880
wrongthread
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2020, 11:05 AM   #2256
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 96,979
Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
It's not asymmetrical.
Yes it is. You expect non police to have more restraint than the police.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2020, 11:08 AM   #2257
SuburbanTurkey
Philosopher
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 7,962
Remember when the entire senior leadership of the Rochester PD resigned because the allegations were " an attempt to destroy my character and integrity."

Anyway, NYTimes article about how they tried to cover up the police killing of Daniel Prude:

Quote:
Documents Reveal How the Police Kept Daniel Prude’s Death Quiet

The June 4 exchange was contained in a mass of city documents released on Monday that show how the police chief, La’Ron Singletary, and other prominent Rochester officials did everything in their power to keep the troubling videos of the incident out of public view, and to prevent damaging fallout from Mr. Prude’s death.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/15/n...iel-prude.html
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2020, 11:12 AM   #2258
Giordano
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 17,646
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
What constitutes "a reasonabl[e] belief?" Should a guess be grounds for killing somebody? And what should the consequences be when the cop is wrong? Suppose a guy reaches into his pocket for his wallet, and gets killed because a cop "reasonably believes" that he might be pulling a gun? Or cops break into a home and kill the lawful, law-abiding resident because they "reasonably believe" that a drug dealer might be inside?

How 'bout this: If a cop acts on his "reasonable belief" and he turns out to be wrong, he gets a mandatory life sentence at hard labor? I bet they'd adopt a little narrower definition of what's "reasonable."
^This. Very much this!

No one questions the basic concept that a police officer has a right to respond if he/she has a reasonable belief that they are at substantial risk to their safety.

But first, what is a responsible belief? Apparently reasonable currently includes any hint or whim that such a risk might be present. This is ridiculous. Police are there to protect the public, not to walk around as
tiny, terrified, paranoid judges and juries on the very edge of self control. If many do this is a huge failure in their training. If some do after rigorous training then those individuals should be fired.

Second, what should be a reasonable response to a perceived threat? There are now lots of videos showing examples of good and bad. Is it too much to ask that police training intensely teaches the correct response and that this be done in an actual hands on environment so it becomes a ďmuscle memory?Ē Not just in cadet training but repeatedly and periodically through a copís career? You have pulled over a car and the driver reaches for the glove compartment or for his wallet: where should you be standing and what should you say and do next? Etc.

Sports teams practice to hone their strategies so they donít screw up in the actual games. Why not cops?
Giordano is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2020, 11:13 AM   #2259
johnny karate
... and your little dog too.
 
johnny karate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 14,488
Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Not if they can get the fire out some safer way, no.
Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Indeed, firefighters have been known to act heroically, as has the occasional LEO.

Those actions (the heroic ones) are "above and beyond" what they are being paid to do, however.
On a day to day basis, we do not expect the people charged with protecting our lives and property to be running suicide missions.
Thank you for the masterclass in missing the point.

Firefighting is dangerous work. Policing is dangerous work. Itís in the job description. No one in either profession should be mitigating that danger at the expense of civilian lives and safety. And if they are, those individuals should no longer be allowed in that profession.
johnny karate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2020, 11:15 AM   #2260
johnny karate
... and your little dog too.
 
johnny karate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 14,488
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Remember when the entire senior leadership of the Rochester PD resigned because the allegations were " an attempt to destroy my character and integrity."

Anyway, NYTimes article about how they tried to cover up the police killing of Daniel Prude:



https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/15/n...iel-prude.html
But... I thought it was just a few bad apples... ?
johnny karate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2020, 11:17 AM   #2261
Giordano
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 17,646
Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
It's not asymmetrical.
It damn well should be. Or why don’t we just hand out guns to random citizens, tell them to enforce a written list of the laws, and wish them luck?
Giordano is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2020, 11:23 AM   #2262
BStrong
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 13,079
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
MLK Jr said it best:
That wasn't what he said:

A riot is the language of the unheard
__________________
Music is what feelings sound like

"Dulce bellum inexpertīs." - Erasmus
BStrong is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2020, 11:23 AM   #2263
pgwenthold
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 20,129
Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
^This. Very much this!

No one questions the basic concept that a police officer has a right to respond if he/she has a reasonable belief that they are at substantial risk to their safety.

But first, what is a responsible belief? Apparently reasonable currently includes any hint or whim that such a risk might be present. This is ridiculous. Police are there to protect the public, not to walk around as
tiny, terrified, paranoid judges and juries on the very edge of self control. If many do this is a huge failure in their training. If some do after rigorous training then those individuals should be fired.
Recall that the police who beat Rodney King went through the video at the trial to try to claim that their actions were "reasonable."

"See here he lifts his hand off the ground here? The officer thought he was reaching for a weapon and so hit him with the baton"
__________________
"As your friend, I have to be honest with you: I don't care about you or your problems" - Chloe, Secret Life of Pets
pgwenthold is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2020, 11:26 AM   #2264
SuburbanTurkey
Philosopher
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 7,962
Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
That wasn't what he said:

A riot is the language of the unheard
I saw MLK handing the guy the gun.

Agree to disagree I suppose.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2020, 11:29 AM   #2265
SuburbanTurkey
Philosopher
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 7,962
Cop shines flashlight at news camera in broad daylight to prevent filming of an arrest.

Such petty little tyrants they are.

https://twitter.com/GigiGraciette/st...61535350599680
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2020, 11:37 AM   #2266
Distracted1
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 5,458
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Cop shines flashlight at news camera in broad daylight to prevent filming of an arrest.

Such petty little tyrants they are.

https://twitter.com/GigiGraciette/st...61535350599680
Bogus!
I want to see the face of the person getting arrested too!
__________________
The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.
Distracted1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2020, 11:40 AM   #2267
Distracted1
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 5,458
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Not according to you or Shutit. You are both saying that non police have to have more restraint than police officers and the reasonable criteria is higher for the non police.
nope.
__________________
The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.
Distracted1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2020, 11:47 AM   #2268
Distracted1
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 5,458
Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
It damn well should be. Or why don’t we just hand out guns to random citizens, tell them to enforce a written list of the laws, and wish them luck?
With some modification, that is what we have done.

Seems there are no "superheroes" IRL. so we have to rely on other mere mortals to do this job.
works amazingly well given the limitations.
__________________
The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.
Distracted1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2020, 12:39 PM   #2269
Suddenly
No Punting
 
Suddenly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Not In Follansbee
Posts: 4,118
Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
It damn well should be. Or why donít we just hand out guns to random citizens, tell them to enforce a written list of the laws, and wish them luck?
That's how it is supposed to work.

As opposed to "hand guns to a bunch of people who self-select for having power issues, train them to be paranoid defenders of their own safety, and send them into places they don't live and are full of people from a totally different background and have them enforce laws" which has worked so well.

That the laws don't much serve the people they are enforced against is the next level, but that sentence was run-on enough.
Suddenly is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2020, 12:40 PM   #2270
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,414
Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
I am aware of that.
That is defined by the Washington Post. If you are found to have a weapon, even if you weren't using it, even if it was a toy, you don't count as unarmed.[/quote]

And therefore, you are misusing their database. The people creating the database have repeatedly pointed out that it's merely a small slice of police violence, used because gunfire killings are the slice that are most likely to get reported in newspapers (even though - or rather, because - violent harassment that does not involve this is vastly more common).

Quote:
The Washington Post database only goes back to 2015, so that case isn't on there.
Thus, my statement.


It is possible. As I said, with several of the white people getting shot cases all I have is "the was an altercation". I don't think I've seen a case in 2019 that matches your description on the evidence available.[/quote]

Again, this is so routine that judges in many areas simply toss out many prosecution attempts on sight - such as "resisting arrest" with no separate charge.

It would be much more common on the list for the taser not to stop them and for the person who got shot to then fight off several cops and try to get one of their guns. I can't think of any in 2019 that match your description.


Quote:
No indeed, I was just looking at the Washington Post database of police shooting deaths. They don't seem to match well with your description of police shooting people because they twitched when they were tased.
They don't need to be shot and killed. Merely being charged with "resisting arrest" or "assaulting an officer" is enough to ruin lives in many cases. And sometimes not even that much is needed, as we've seen with Fred Watson's persecution in Ferguson Missouri. After five years based on nonsense, during which he lost a high-paying job, a security clearance, and his house, prosecutors just...dropped the matter.

Again, merely counting "people killed by police gunfire" severely underplays the problem. Again, Black Lives Matter was started when Trayvon Martin's murderer, a racist wannabe vigilante who had never been a cop, was acquitted following a lazy Police captain's cavalier dismissal and a goofball prosecution. It does *tend* to focus on police, since they're the state-entitled enablers of racist violence and ruin, but BLM activists have gone on to local, county, and state elections in order to change these matters from the inside as well.
Mumbles is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2020, 01:11 PM   #2271
shuttlt
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 7,314
Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Originally Posted by shuttlt
That is defined by the Washington Post. If you are found to have a weapon, even if you weren't using it, even if it was a toy, you don't count as unarmed.
And therefore, you are misusing their database.
Nonsense.

Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
The people creating the database have repeatedly pointed out that it's merely a small slice of police violence, used because gunfire killings are the slice that are most likely to get reported in newspapers (even though - or rather, because - violent harassment that does not involve this is vastly more common).
Sure, and I am using it to get an idea of what cases of police shooting to death unarmed people there were over the course of a year is. That is within the scope of the database and is a lot more methodical than what anybody else here is doing. I don't see an obvious racial divide, though that isn't to say it's not there. People getting shot "just for going for their wallet" if it happens is a small fraction of the whole.

Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Originally Posted by shuttlt
The Washington Post database only goes back to 2015, so that case isn't on there.
Thus, my statement.
I can't get a sense of the shootings of unarmed people that took place in 2019 because the database doesn't go back before 2015? I don't follow.

Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Originally Posted by shuttlt
It is possible. As I said, with several of the white people getting shot cases all I have is "the was an altercation". I don't think I've seen a case in 2019 that matches your description on the evidence available.
Again, this is so routine that judges in many areas simply toss out many prosecution attempts on sight - such as "resisting arrest" with no separate charge.
Perhaps. I was looking at police killings of unarmed suspects though. What is clear from that is people being shot "just for reaching for their wallet" is vanishingly rare.

Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Quote:
It would be much more common on the list for the taser not to stop them and for the person who got shot to then fight off several cops and try to get one of their guns. I can't think of any in 2019 that match your description.
They don't need to be shot and killed. Merely being charged with "resisting arrest" or "assaulting an officer" is enough to ruin lives in many cases. And sometimes not even that much is needed, as we've seen with Fred Watson's persecution in Ferguson Missouri. After five years based on nonsense, during which he lost a high-paying job, a security clearance, and his house, prosecutors just...dropped the matter.
Sure, but I was looking at police killings of unarmed people to try and get a sense of what is going on. Otherwise one ends up drowning in anecdotes with no sense of what is going on.

Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Again, merely counting "people killed by police gunfire" severely underplays the problem. Again, Black Lives Matter was started when Trayvon Martin's murderer, a racist wannabe vigilante who had never been a cop, was acquitted following a lazy Police captain's cavalier dismissal and a goofball prosecution. It does *tend* to focus on police, since they're the state-entitled enablers of racist violence and ruin, but BLM activists have gone on to local, county, and state elections in order to change these matters from the inside as well.
Yes, that is the BLM version of it. I don't intend to get drawn in to reanalysing Trayvon Martin. In a country as big as the US, you are always going to have shocking cases whose verdict you disagree with.

Last edited by shuttlt; 16th September 2020 at 01:22 PM.
shuttlt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2020, 01:21 PM   #2272
shuttlt
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 7,314
Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Originally Posted by Darat
Not according to you or Shutit. You are both saying that non police have to have more restraint than police officers and the reasonable criteria is higher for the non police.
nope.
Agreed.
shuttlt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2020, 01:31 PM   #2273
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 31,880
Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
That wasn't what he said:

A riot is the language of the unheard
no **** sherlock!
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2020, 01:32 PM   #2274
shuttlt
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 7,314
Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Thank you for the masterclass in missing the point.

Firefighting is dangerous work. Policing is dangerous work. Itís in the job description.
Certainly

Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
No one in either profession should be mitigating that danger at the expense of civilian lives and safety. And if they are, those individuals should no longer be allowed in that profession.
That is not the case. A firefighter who is reckless with their own safety potentially puts their colleagues at risk. Firefighters are sometimes disciplined for taking excessive risks that they are not supposed to take. It is the same with cops.
shuttlt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2020, 01:33 PM   #2275
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 31,880
Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
That's how it is supposed to work.

As opposed to "hand guns to a bunch of people who self-select for having power issues, train them to be paranoid defenders of their own safety, and send them into places they don't live and are full of people from a totally different background and have them enforce laws" which has worked so well.

That the laws don't much serve the people they are enforced against is the next level, but that sentence was run-on enough.
The laws aren't sup[posed to serve the people they are enforced against.
they are supposed to served the people that write the laws against them.
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2020, 01:51 PM   #2276
shuttlt
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 7,314
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Not according to you or Shutit. You are both saying that non police have to have more restraint than police officers and the reasonable criteria is higher for the non police.
What I expect is for there to be a threshold to use lethal force in both cases of a reasonable belief that serious harm or death is coming their way and reasonably believe that the level of force is appropriate. Different circumstances will get you a different amount of the way to a reasonable belief. If a cop forces you to pull over that is going to get you a different amount of the way to reasonable belief to if you force a cop to pull over. That isn't to say that that alone might necessarily be enough, but it would be crazy to view both of those as the same.
shuttlt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2020, 05:41 PM   #2277
Giordano
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 17,646
Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
With some modification, that is what we have done.

Seems there are no "superheroes" IRL. so we have to rely on other mere mortals to do this job.
works amazingly well given the limitations.
I know you think it is working amazingly well. I donít think so. I donít believe you would think so if these ďunavoidable errorsĒ were your son, or brother, or friend instead of a cold statistic.
Giordano is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2020, 07:17 PM   #2278
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 30,662
So here's an honest question.

Black police officers. I mean, that's a thing right?

I did some Googling trying to fine any hard statistics as to what percentage of cops of black and don't really get anything concrete enough to trust, but I mean it's like tiny. "Black Cop" isn't exactly an albino Bigfood riding a Unicorn level of rare occurance.

I mean, yeah obviously they aren't a collective with the same opinion but you'd figure a vague feeling of their general view on all this would at least be an interesting data point if nothing else.
__________________
Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question."
Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..."
Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2020, 07:23 PM   #2279
Shadowdweller
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,014
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
So here's an honest question.

Black police officers. I mean, that's a thing right?
The significance thereof being....what, exactly?

Last edited by Shadowdweller; 16th September 2020 at 07:24 PM.
Shadowdweller is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2020, 10:12 PM   #2280
Hlafordlaes
Disorder of Kilopi
 
Hlafordlaes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: State of Flux
Posts: 14,649
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
So here's an honest question.

Black police officers. I mean, that's a thing right?

I did some Googling trying to fine any hard statistics as to what percentage of cops of black and don't really get anything concrete enough to trust, but I mean it's like tiny. "Black Cop" isn't exactly an albino Bigfood riding a Unicorn level of rare occurance.

I mean, yeah obviously they aren't a collective with the same opinion but you'd figure a vague feeling of their general view on all this would at least be an interesting data point if nothing else.
It is a well-known phenomenon that victims of childhood abuse/neglect, like victims of racism, will often internalize the memes directed at them. Thus the rather otherwise inexplicable undercurrent present in US Black culture of preference for lighter tone skin, for example. Finding one of these in one's own thoughts is often cause for great pain and consternation, leading potentially to even more self-hate.

Whereas "Black conservative" is no example of drawing on and acquiescing to the above, "Black Trump supporter" most definitely is (or of personal stupidity).

As for police officers in particular, there are few better examples of in-group culture and maximal peer pressure than that of the police in modern society, people whose experience of others is in the form of one perp after another. No surprise that Asian and Black police become part of that. I recall one young Manhattan Assistant DA, a school chum, telling me some years back, and with surprising conviction and passion, "Everyone's a criminal."
__________________
Driftwood on an empty shore of the sea of meaninglessness. Irrelevant, weightless, inconsequential moment of existential hubris on the fast track to oblivion.
His real name is Count Douchenozzle von Stenchfahrter und Lichtendicks. - shemp

Last edited by Hlafordlaes; 16th September 2020 at 10:15 PM.
Hlafordlaes is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:53 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.