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Tags antifa conspiracies , assault incidents , donald trump , Martin Gugino , police incidents , police misconduct charges

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Old 16th June 2020, 07:25 AM   #281
dmaker
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
But President Trump's question about this being a setup is 100% dead on. The tubes leaking "fluid" is evidence shown in the video that does support this was a setup.

Chris B.
How do you know there are tubes? If something that looks like a cell phone isn't necessarily a cell phone (your argument), then how can you say as a fact that there are tubes? Perhaps they are straps for a mask?
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Old 16th June 2020, 07:28 AM   #282
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The guy is in the hospital with a fractured skull. Are the doctors and nurses also part of the antifa plot?
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Old 16th June 2020, 07:42 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
The guy is in the hospital with a fractured skull. Are the doctors and nurses also part of the antifa plot?
Yes, they're all part of the DeEP sTaTE conspiracy.
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Old 16th June 2020, 08:40 AM   #284
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Apologetics is about defense by explanation, not about making excuses. Stacyhs is conflating two related but distinct things.
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Old 16th June 2020, 09:12 AM   #285
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Apologetics is about defense by explanation, not about making excuses. Stacyhs is conflating two related but distinct things.
An excuse is not an explanation ?

"Q:What's your excuse for being late?

A:I had a doctors appointment this morning"

I'm not sure it's a distinction with a difference in many cases, and especially in the case we are discussing.
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Old 16th June 2020, 09:18 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
He's allowed his opinion is he not? You are not forced to agree with it just as nobody is forced to agree with yours.

I cannot verify what device the man is holding. I have an opinion of what it could be but there is the end. There is no more evidence to suggest it was a phone than there is to suggest it was a scanning device. Yet nobody seemed to question the BBC fact check.

But President Trump's question about this being a setup is 100% dead on. The tubes leaking "fluid" is evidence shown in the video that does support this was a setup.

Chris B.
This would mean the police were privy to the setup. Else they would clearly see tubes and know it was fake.

This would mean the hospital and doctors and ambulance crew are privy to the setup. Because they had to lie about his injuries.

Why have none of these people come out and told us this was a setup ?

The claim this was a setup is ******* insane.
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Old 16th June 2020, 09:22 AM   #287
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I have said this once before, but I think it's time to repeat it again:

At this point, it has become obvious to almost everybody what Trump stands for. Most of his fascist fans will probably continue to worship him. A few will feel let down by him for losing.
But as for the rest of them, I advise you to try to think a little strategically, which is not the same thing as being an opportunist.

I can see why it is easier for me as somebody who doesn't live in the USA to say so, but it is probably a bad idea to keep asking Trump's fanbase to defend him now that they are losing the motivation to do so. If they haven't already abandoned him, they are probably in the process of coming up with excuses for doing so. Why not let them?

Give them a chance to turn their backs on him and his racist, reactionary politics.
I don't think that proving ourselves right and them wrong serves any really meaningful purpose. Their excuses for no longer believing in him are probably going to be as lame as their reasons for believing in him in the first place, but unless those excuses are part of a more general (and wrong) argument, I don't see much point in asking them to defend their position.

Let it go.
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Old 16th June 2020, 10:24 AM   #288
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Old 16th June 2020, 10:59 AM   #289
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Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post
This would mean the police were privy to the setup. Else they would clearly see tubes and know it was fake.

This would mean the hospital and doctors and ambulance crew are privy to the setup. Because they had to lie about his injuries.

Why have none of these people come out and told us this was a setup ?

The claim this was a setup is ******* insane.

This!

Absolutely. If the cops at the scene don't come to Trump's conclusion, what justification does Trump or anyone else have? None.

The police assisted him... At least after they walked over him. If they noticed he had a police scanner in his hand, you don't think they wouldn't have noticed?
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Old 16th June 2020, 11:04 AM   #290
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
The guy is in the hospital with a fractured skull. Are the doctors and nurses also part of the antifa plot?
Point of logic:

It's not necessary to assume a conspiracy. A fraudster overcommitting to a fall can suffer a real injury and require real treatment from non-conspirators.

I'm not saying that's what happened here, just that your logic sucks and your argument doesn't actually follow.

---

A stuntman breaks his leg during a stunt. Is the doctor who sets the bone treating a real injury, or is he just part of the stunt?
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Old 16th June 2020, 11:11 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Point of logic:

It's not necessary to assume a conspiracy. A fraudster overcommitting to a fall can suffer a real injury and require real treatment from non-conspirators.

I'm not saying that's what happened here, just that your logic sucks and your argument doesn't actually follow.

---

A stuntman breaks his leg during a stunt. Is the doctor who sets the bone treating a real injury, or is he just part of the stunt?
this "logic" is predicated on the assumption that an old man would risk death for a little publicity stunt.
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Old 16th June 2020, 11:11 AM   #292
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Point of logic:

It's not necessary to assume a conspiracy. A fraudster overcommitting to a fall can suffer a real injury and require real treatment from non-conspirators.

I'm not saying that's what happened here, just that your logic sucks and your argument doesn't actually follow.

---

A stuntman breaks his leg during a stunt. Is the doctor who sets the bone treating a real injury, or is he just part of the stunt?
Is that the claim? That the man meant to pretend to break his own head using a set of fake blood tubes, but then actually broke his own head, and no one involved in providing aid noticed this hoax equipment attached to his injured head?
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Old 16th June 2020, 11:16 AM   #293
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It is not hyperbole to state that Trump voters have completely lost their ******* minds
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Old 16th June 2020, 11:22 AM   #294
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Is that the claim? That the man meant to pretend to break his own head using a set of fake blood tubes, but then actually broke his own head, and no one involved in providing aid noticed this hoax equipment attached to his injured head?
Begs the question that the fall would have been intended to fake a broken head.

I think a much more reasonable fake fall scenario would be one where the video record of the cops pushing over an old man for no reason was the goal, and all of the injuries arising from overcommitting to the fall were real and unintended.

Again, not saying that's what happened. Just that your logic continues to be ass and your argument still doesn't follow.
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Old 16th June 2020, 11:23 AM   #295
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
this "logic" is predicated on the assumption that an old man would risk death for a little publicity stunt.
Humans of all ages are notoriously bad at assessing risk. Humans of all ages are renowned for putting their lives at risk for causes they believe in.

I think this is much more logical than ST's "either the fall was real or the doctors are in on it" binary choice.
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Old 16th June 2020, 11:24 AM   #296
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Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
It is not hyperbole to state that Trump voters have completely lost their ******* minds
Looks like textbook hyperbole to me.
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Old 16th June 2020, 11:25 AM   #297
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Begs the question that the fall would have been intended to fake a broken head.

I think a much more reasonable fake fall scenario would be one where the video record of the cops pushing over an old man for no reason was the goal, and all of the injuries arising from overcommitting to the fall were real and unintended.

Again, not saying that's what happened. Just that your logic continues to be ass and your argument still doesn't follow.
Claims have been made about a fake blood apparatus and a secret-squirrel type scanner. Are you unaware of this?
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Old 16th June 2020, 11:26 AM   #298
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Begs the question that the fall would have been intended to fake a broken head.

I think a much more reasonable fake fall scenario would be one where the video record of the cops pushing over an old man for no reason was the goal, and all of the injuries arising from overcommitting to the fall were real and unintended.

Again, not saying that's what happened. Just that your logic continues to be ass and your argument still doesn't follow.
I'm not saying that you are deliberately engaging in silly hair-splitting in order to provide cover for something purely despicable.
It's just that your logic suggests just that.
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Old 16th June 2020, 11:36 AM   #299
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Looks like textbook hyperbole to me.
Recommended reading for you from the American Interest on The Present Madness
Quote:
Societies do not go mad. They do not go crazy or insane, become manifestly irrational, lose their collective ****. These are mere figures of speech.

Except that they do, temporarily at least. Just as there are sudden financial market swoons, so-called Minsky moments, there are “Lord of the Flies” moments.
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Old 16th June 2020, 11:40 AM   #300
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Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
Recommended reading for you from the American Interest on The Present Madness
Still looks like hyperbole to me.

Would you be willing to point to specific arguments in this thread, and say, "this seems like crazy talk, and here's why I think so: ________________" (filling in the blank with why you think so)?
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Old 16th June 2020, 11:42 AM   #301
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Claims have been made about a fake blood apparatus
I'm not aware of such claims. If you're addressing such claims, then your logic makes more sense.
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Old 16th June 2020, 11:47 AM   #302
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm not aware of such claims. If you're addressing such claims, then your logic makes more sense.
Sure, the least insane theory, that he took a dive and botched it, resulting in real injury, is not disprovable. You'd have to be a mind reader to know such things. It's also not disprovable that invisible faeries pushed him down, or a malevolent spirit used telekinesis.
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Old 16th June 2020, 11:49 AM   #303
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
I'm not saying that you are deliberately engaging in silly hair-splitting in order to provide cover for something purely despicable.
I've PM'd Trebuchet with my actual opinion on the original question. He knows where I stand. As far as I'm concerned, that discharges my only serious obligation to this thread.

I am now amusing myself by addressing other narrow points that catch my eye.

I take it for granted that you won't lose sight of the central issue. I'd consider it a waste of time to try to obfuscate that from you. The idea of doing that never crossed my mind.

Quote:
It's just that your logic suggests just that.
I'm sorry you feel that way. Logic is logic. Whatever you infer from it, the reasoning itself still stands or falls on its own merits. Are you resorting to a non sequitur because you have no rebuttal to the argument I'm actually making?

Also, at this point it's up to you. I've answered the original question to my satisfaction and I think to Trebuchet's satisfaction. If you think you need to keep focused on it and not be distracted by these other questions, I'm not chaining you down to this sidebar.
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Old 16th June 2020, 11:51 AM   #304
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What is the point of making up far-fetched exculpatory scenarios if not to shift blame?
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Old 16th June 2020, 12:04 PM   #305
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Begged question aside...

Who here has tried that, though? There's maybe two people in this thread who might be expected to try it. I know I haven't.

I don't think Chris has, either.

ETA: I mean, smartcooky isn't even trying to defend the claim that reporting facts eliminates reporter bias, and that really is indefensible.
I respect you, and I read all of your post because I honestly learn things.
In this case we have a poster who ignores the fact that the BBC was referencing a tweet by the POTUS. It is ignored page after page.

The poster is not arguing in good faith. Or even medium faith.

Flav-or-Aide, maybe.
No, definitely
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Old 16th June 2020, 12:11 PM   #306
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
From NYG's attached image....

"They do not deserve to be vilified and treated like criminals for simply following orders"

Hmmm. Sounds familiar? Can anyone here suggest where they might have heard this claim before?
A chap by the name of Peter von Hagenbach tried it back in '74 (1474 that was).
They chopped his head off.
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Old 16th June 2020, 12:14 PM   #307
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
To be clear, I was not alleging he was holding a RF scanner in his hand. I was pointing out it would be dishonest to do so as you cannot tell from the video what the device is. It does look like a phone, but it also looks like other things so one cannot make an honest determination of exactly what it is. We can have an opinion about what it is and that's fine.

However the BBC fact checker goes from opinion to statement of fact about the device in his hand being a phone. A fact checker. Facts are supposed to be facts, not cleverly prequalified opinions.

Regardless, it makes no difference now. After viewing the close up video of the liquid (alleged blood) flowing from the rubber tubes to the ground the entire situation was a preplanned interaction with police for the camera. It was a setup.

Chris B.
So "No I can't. Look at that squirrel!!!". Okay.
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Old 16th June 2020, 12:15 PM   #308
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
How do you fall harder than you were pushed? Hidden jets?
I'm f having flashbacks to the 911 nuts.
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Old 16th June 2020, 12:17 PM   #309
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post
This would mean the police were privy to the setup. Else they would clearly see tubes and know it was fake.

This would mean the hospital and doctors and ambulance crew are privy to the setup. Because they had to lie about his injuries.

Why have none of these people come out and told us this was a setup ?The claim this was a setup is ******* insane.

Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
This!

Absolutely. If the cops at the scene don't come to Trump's conclusion, what justification does Trump or anyone else have? None.

The police assisted him... At least after they walked over him. If they noticed he had a police scanner in his hand, you don't think they wouldn't have noticed?
Don't confuse the CTers with facts and logic. The cognitive dissonance may make their heads explode.

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Old 16th June 2020, 12:18 PM   #310
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Looks like textbook hyperbole to me.
I agree. To be accurate, he should have just stated that the ones in this thread have lost their minds.
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Old 16th June 2020, 12:20 PM   #311
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
What is the point of making up far-fetched exculpatory scenarios if not to shift blame?
You'll have to ask whoever is making up far-fetched exculpatory scenarios.

I'm allowed to point out flawed logic in rebutting such scenarios, without having to endorse the scenarios themselves. And that is, in fact, the case.

You seem committed to the idea that I must be mounting some sort of defense of the tweet, for you to rebut.
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Old 16th June 2020, 12:20 PM   #312
P.J. Denyer
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm not aware of such claims. If you're addressing such claims, then your logic makes more sense.
Are you not reading Chris' posts in this thread?
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Old 16th June 2020, 12:25 PM   #313
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
How do you fall harder than you were pushed? Hidden jets?
Without endorsing the president's claims, I think there's at least one obvious scenario: You're pushed hard enough to that you tumble before regaining your footing, and you choose not to regain your footing and simply continue to fall.

I understand that some footballers are notorious for this kind of "fall harder than pushed" nonsense. I also understand that similar techniques are fundamental to choreographing believable fight scenes in movies. Is my understanding incorrect? Are hidden jets the only answer to these and other similar scenarios?
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Old 16th June 2020, 12:27 PM   #314
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
I agree. To be accurate, he should have just stated that the ones in this thread have lost their minds.
That would be against the MA. He should have stated that specific arguments seemed crazy, and explained why he thought so.
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Old 16th June 2020, 12:29 PM   #315
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Apologetics is about defense by explanation, not about making excuses. Stacyhs is conflating two related but distinct things.
No, I am not conflating anything. It is merely an argument in defense of something. That defense can be in any form, including excuses as in the example TheL8Elvis has already given.
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Old 16th June 2020, 12:34 PM   #316
theprestige
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
Are you not reading Chris' posts in this thread?
Not really. The hills he chooses to fight on are pretty much orthogonal to mine, as is his way of fighting. I apologize for any flawed argumentation my laziness may result in. Chalk it up to the fact that I'm not taking this thread any more seriously than anyone else on the first two pages. Especially now that the OP has given up on it anyway.
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Old 16th June 2020, 12:37 PM   #317
Stacyhs
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
I'm not saying that you are deliberately engaging in silly hair-splitting in order to provide cover for something purely despicable.
It's just that your logic suggests just that.
I would say it. And do.
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Old 16th June 2020, 12:42 PM   #318
dmaker
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
He's allowed his opinion is he not? You are not forced to agree with it just as nobody is forced to agree with yours.

I cannot verify what device the man is holding. I have an opinion of what it could be but there is the end. There is no more evidence to suggest it was a phone than there is to suggest it was a scanning device. Yet nobody seemed to question the BBC fact check.

But President Trump's question about this being a setup is 100% dead on. The tubes leaking "fluid" is evidence shown in the video that does support this was a setup.

Chris B.
I cannot verify that there are straps, not tubes, near the leaking fluid. I have an opinion of what they are, but that is the end. There is no more evidence to suggest tubes than there is to suggest to suggest straps. Yet, you do not seem to question your statement of fact regarding tubes.
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Old 16th June 2020, 01:03 PM   #319
theprestige
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I would say it. And do.
You would be wrong. And are.
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Old 16th June 2020, 01:11 PM   #320
Stacyhs
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You would be wrong. And are.
And you could be wrong in saying I'm wrong. And are.

How long do you want to play this game?
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