Trump Supporters: Can you defend this? - Page 8

dmaker · 16th June 2020, 07:25 AM

Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY

But President Trump's question about this being a setup is 100% dead on. The tubes leaking "fluid" is evidence shown in the video that does support this was a setup.

Chris B.

How do you know there are tubes? If something that looks like a cell phone isn't necessarily a cell phone (your argument), then how can you say as a fact that there are tubes? Perhaps they are straps for a mask?

SuburbanTurkey · 16th June 2020, 07:28 AM

The guy is in the hospital with a fractured skull. Are the doctors and nurses also part of the antifa plot?

The Don · 16th June 2020, 07:42 AM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

The guy is in the hospital with a fractured skull. Are the doctors and nurses also part of the antifa plot?

Yes, they're all part of the DeEP sTaTE conspiracy.

theprestige · 16th June 2020, 08:40 AM

Apologetics is about defense by explanation, not about making excuses. Stacyhs is conflating two related but distinct things.

TheL8Elvis · 16th June 2020, 09:12 AM

Originally Posted by theprestige

Apologetics is about defense by explanation, not about making excuses. Stacyhs is conflating two related but distinct things.

An excuse is not an explanation ?

"Q:What's your excuse for being late?

A:I had a doctors appointment this morning"

I'm not sure it's a distinction with a difference in many cases, and especially in the case we are discussing.

TheL8Elvis · 16th June 2020, 09:18 AM

Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY

He's allowed his opinion is he not? You are not forced to agree with it just as nobody is forced to agree with yours.

I cannot verify what device the man is holding. I have an opinion of what it could be but there is the end. There is no more evidence to suggest it was a phone than there is to suggest it was a scanning device. Yet nobody seemed to question the BBC fact check.

But President Trump's question about this being a setup is 100% dead on. The tubes leaking "fluid" is evidence shown in the video that does support this was a setup.

Chris B.

This would mean the police were privy to the setup. Else they would clearly see tubes and know it was fake.

This would mean the hospital and doctors and ambulance crew are privy to the setup. Because they had to lie about his injuries.

Why have none of these people come out and told us this was a setup ?

The claim this was a setup is ******* insane.

dann · 16th June 2020, 09:22 AM

I have said this once before, but I think it's time to repeat it again:

At this point, it has become obvious to almost everybody what Trump stands for. Most of his fascist fans will probably continue to worship him. A few will feel let down by him for losing.
But as for the rest of them, I advise you to try to think a little strategically, which is not the same thing as being an opportunist.

I can see why it is easier for me as somebody who doesn't live in the USA to say so, but it is probably a bad idea to keep asking Trump's fanbase to defend him now that they are losing the motivation to do so. If they haven't already abandoned him, they are probably in the process of coming up with excuses for doing so. Why not let them?

Give them a chance to turn their backs on him and his racist, reactionary politics.
I don't think that proving ourselves right and them wrong serves any really meaningful purpose. Their excuses for no longer believing in him are probably going to be as lame as their reasons for believing in him in the first place, but unless those excuses are part of a more general (and wrong) argument, I don't see much point in asking them to defend their position.

Let it go.

The Shrike · 16th June 2020, 10:24 AM

"When people show you who they are, believe them."
~Oprah Winfrey/Maya Angelou

acbytesla · 16th June 2020, 10:59 AM

Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis

This would mean the police were privy to the setup. Else they would clearly see tubes and know it was fake.

This would mean the hospital and doctors and ambulance crew are privy to the setup. Because they had to lie about his injuries.

Why have none of these people come out and told us this was a setup ?

The claim this was a setup is ******* insane.

This!

Absolutely. If the cops at the scene don't come to Trump's conclusion, what justification does Trump or anyone else have? None.

The police assisted him... At least after they walked over him. If they noticed he had a police scanner in his hand, you don't think they wouldn't have noticed?

theprestige · 16th June 2020, 11:04 AM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

The guy is in the hospital with a fractured skull. Are the doctors and nurses also part of the antifa plot?

Point of logic:

It's not necessary to assume a conspiracy. A fraudster overcommitting to a fall can suffer a real injury and require real treatment from non-conspirators.

I'm not saying that's what happened here, just that your logic sucks and your argument doesn't actually follow.

---

A stuntman breaks his leg during a stunt. Is the doctor who sets the bone treating a real injury, or is he just part of the stunt?

The Great Zaganza · 16th June 2020, 11:11 AM

Originally Posted by theprestige

Point of logic:

It's not necessary to assume a conspiracy. A fraudster overcommitting to a fall can suffer a real injury and require real treatment from non-conspirators.

I'm not saying that's what happened here, just that your logic sucks and your argument doesn't actually follow.

---

A stuntman breaks his leg during a stunt. Is the doctor who sets the bone treating a real injury, or is he just part of the stunt?

this "logic" is predicated on the assumption that an old man would risk death for a little publicity stunt.

SuburbanTurkey · 16th June 2020, 11:11 AM

Originally Posted by theprestige

Point of logic:

It's not necessary to assume a conspiracy. A fraudster overcommitting to a fall can suffer a real injury and require real treatment from non-conspirators.

I'm not saying that's what happened here, just that your logic sucks and your argument doesn't actually follow.

---

A stuntman breaks his leg during a stunt. Is the doctor who sets the bone treating a real injury, or is he just part of the stunt?

Is that the claim? That the man meant to pretend to break his own head using a set of fake blood tubes, but then actually broke his own head, and no one involved in providing aid noticed this hoax equipment attached to his injured head?

portlandatheist · 16th June 2020, 11:16 AM

It is not hyperbole to state that Trump voters have completely lost their ******* minds

theprestige · 16th June 2020, 11:22 AM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Is that the claim? That the man meant to pretend to break his own head using a set of fake blood tubes, but then actually broke his own head, and no one involved in providing aid noticed this hoax equipment attached to his injured head?

Begs the question that the fall would have been intended to fake a broken head.

I think a much more reasonable fake fall scenario would be one where the video record of the cops pushing over an old man for no reason was the goal, and all of the injuries arising from overcommitting to the fall were real and unintended.

Again, not saying that's what happened. Just that your logic continues to be ass and your argument still doesn't follow.

theprestige · 16th June 2020, 11:23 AM

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

this "logic" is predicated on the assumption that an old man would risk death for a little publicity stunt.

Humans of all ages are notoriously bad at assessing risk. Humans of all ages are renowned for putting their lives at risk for causes they believe in.

I think this is much more logical than ST's "either the fall was real or the doctors are in on it" binary choice.

theprestige · 16th June 2020, 11:24 AM

Originally Posted by portlandatheist

It is not hyperbole to state that Trump voters have completely lost their ******* minds

Looks like textbook hyperbole to me.

SuburbanTurkey · 16th June 2020, 11:25 AM

Originally Posted by theprestige

Begs the question that the fall would have been intended to fake a broken head.

I think a much more reasonable fake fall scenario would be one where the video record of the cops pushing over an old man for no reason was the goal, and all of the injuries arising from overcommitting to the fall were real and unintended.

Again, not saying that's what happened. Just that your logic continues to be ass and your argument still doesn't follow.

Claims have been made about a fake blood apparatus and a secret-squirrel type scanner. Are you unaware of this?

The Great Zaganza · 16th June 2020, 11:26 AM

Originally Posted by theprestige

Begs the question that the fall would have been intended to fake a broken head.

I think a much more reasonable fake fall scenario would be one where the video record of the cops pushing over an old man for no reason was the goal, and all of the injuries arising from overcommitting to the fall were real and unintended.

Again, not saying that's what happened. Just that your logic continues to be ass and your argument still doesn't follow.

I'm not saying that you are deliberately engaging in silly hair-splitting in order to provide cover for something purely despicable.
It's just that your logic suggests just that.

portlandatheist · 16th June 2020, 11:36 AM

Originally Posted by theprestige

Looks like textbook hyperbole to me.

Recommended reading for you from the American Interest on The Present Madness

Quote:

Societies do not go mad. They do not go crazy or insane, become manifestly irrational, lose their collective ****. These are mere figures of speech.

Except that they do, temporarily at least. Just as there are sudden financial market swoons, so-called Minsky moments, there are “Lord of the Flies” moments.

theprestige · 16th June 2020, 11:40 AM

Originally Posted by portlandatheist

Recommended reading for you from the American Interest on The Present Madness

Still looks like hyperbole to me.

Would you be willing to point to specific arguments in this thread, and say, "this seems like crazy talk, and here's why I think so: ________________" (filling in the blank with why you think so)?

theprestige · 16th June 2020, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Claims have been made about a fake blood apparatus

I'm not aware of such claims. If you're addressing such claims, then your logic makes more sense.

SuburbanTurkey · 16th June 2020, 11:47 AM

Originally Posted by theprestige

I'm not aware of such claims. If you're addressing such claims, then your logic makes more sense.

Sure, the least insane theory, that he took a dive and botched it, resulting in real injury, is not disprovable. You'd have to be a mind reader to know such things. It's also not disprovable that invisible faeries pushed him down, or a malevolent spirit used telekinesis.

theprestige · 16th June 2020, 11:49 AM

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

I'm not saying that you are deliberately engaging in silly hair-splitting in order to provide cover for something purely despicable.

I've PM'd Trebuchet with my actual opinion on the original question. He knows where I stand. As far as I'm concerned, that discharges my only serious obligation to this thread.

I am now amusing myself by addressing other narrow points that catch my eye.

I take it for granted that you won't lose sight of the central issue. I'd consider it a waste of time to try to obfuscate that from you. The idea of doing that never crossed my mind.

Quote:

It's just that your logic suggests just that.

I'm sorry you feel that way. Logic is logic. Whatever you infer from it, the reasoning itself still stands or falls on its own merits. Are you resorting to a non sequitur because you have no rebuttal to the argument I'm actually making?

Also, at this point it's up to you. I've answered the original question to my satisfaction and I think to Trebuchet's satisfaction. If you think you need to keep focused on it and not be distracted by these other questions, I'm not chaining you down to this sidebar.

The Great Zaganza · 16th June 2020, 11:51 AM

What is the point of making up far-fetched exculpatory scenarios if not to shift blame?

autumn1971 · 16th June 2020, 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

Begged question aside...

Who here has tried that, though? There's maybe two people in this thread who might be expected to try it. I know I haven't.

I don't think Chris has, either.

ETA: I mean, smartcooky isn't even trying to defend the claim that reporting facts eliminates reporter bias, and that really is indefensible.

I respect you, and I read all of your post because I honestly learn things.
In this case we have a poster who ignores the fact that the BBC was referencing a tweet by the POTUS. It is ignored page after page.

The poster is not arguing in good faith. Or even medium faith.

Flav-or-Aide, maybe.
No, definitely

catsmate · 16th June 2020, 12:11 PM

Originally Posted by smartcooky

From NYG's attached image....

"They do not deserve to be vilified and treated like criminals for simply following orders"

Hmmm. Sounds familiar? Can anyone here suggest where they might have heard this claim before?

A chap by the name of Peter von Hagenbach tried it back in '74 (1474 that was).
They chopped his head off.

P.J. Denyer · 16th June 2020, 12:14 PM

Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY

To be clear, I was not alleging he was holding a RF scanner in his hand. I was pointing out it would be dishonest to do so as you cannot tell from the video what the device is. It does look like a phone, but it also looks like other things so one cannot make an honest determination of exactly what it is. We can have an opinion about what it is and that's fine.

However the BBC fact checker goes from opinion to statement of fact about the device in his hand being a phone. A fact checker. Facts are supposed to be facts, not cleverly prequalified opinions.

Regardless, it makes no difference now. After viewing the close up video of the liquid (alleged blood) flowing from the rubber tubes to the ground the entire situation was a preplanned interaction with police for the camera. It was a setup.

Chris B.

So "No I can't. Look at that squirrel!!!". Okay.

catsmate · 16th June 2020, 12:15 PM

Originally Posted by bruto

How do you fall harder than you were pushed? Hidden jets?

I'm f having flashbacks to the 911 nuts.

Stacyhs · 16th June 2020, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post
This would mean the police were privy to the setup. Else they would clearly see tubes and know it was fake.

This would mean the hospital and doctors and ambulance crew are privy to the setup. Because they had to lie about his injuries.

Why have none of these people come out and told us this was a setup ?The claim this was a setup is ******* insane.

Originally Posted by acbytesla

This!

Absolutely. If the cops at the scene don't come to Trump's conclusion, what justification does Trump or anyone else have? None.

The police assisted him... At least after they walked over him. If they noticed he had a police scanner in his hand, you don't think they wouldn't have noticed?

Don't confuse the CTers with facts and logic. The cognitive dissonance may make their heads explode.

thaiboxerken · 16th June 2020, 12:18 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

Looks like textbook hyperbole to me.

I agree. To be accurate, he should have just stated that the ones in this thread have lost their minds.

theprestige · 16th June 2020, 12:20 PM

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

What is the point of making up far-fetched exculpatory scenarios if not to shift blame?

You'll have to ask whoever is making up far-fetched exculpatory scenarios.

I'm allowed to point out flawed logic in rebutting such scenarios, without having to endorse the scenarios themselves. And that is, in fact, the case.

You seem committed to the idea that I must be mounting some sort of defense of the tweet, for you to rebut.

P.J. Denyer · 16th June 2020, 12:20 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

I'm not aware of such claims. If you're addressing such claims, then your logic makes more sense.

Are you not reading Chris' posts in this thread?

theprestige · 16th June 2020, 12:25 PM

Originally Posted by bruto

How do you fall harder than you were pushed? Hidden jets?

Without endorsing the president's claims, I think there's at least one obvious scenario: You're pushed hard enough to that you tumble before regaining your footing, and you choose not to regain your footing and simply continue to fall.

I understand that some footballers are notorious for this kind of "fall harder than pushed" nonsense. I also understand that similar techniques are fundamental to choreographing believable fight scenes in movies. Is my understanding incorrect? Are hidden jets the only answer to these and other similar scenarios?

theprestige · 16th June 2020, 12:27 PM

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken

I agree. To be accurate, he should have just stated that the ones in this thread have lost their minds.

That would be against the MA. He should have stated that specific arguments seemed crazy, and explained why he thought so.

Stacyhs · 16th June 2020, 12:29 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

Apologetics is about defense by explanation, not about making excuses. Stacyhs is conflating two related but distinct things.

No, I am not conflating anything. It is merely an argument in defense of something. That defense can be in any form, including excuses as in the example TheL8Elvis has already given.

theprestige · 16th June 2020, 12:34 PM

Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer

Are you not reading Chris' posts in this thread?

Not really. The hills he chooses to fight on are pretty much orthogonal to mine, as is his way of fighting. I apologize for any flawed argumentation my laziness may result in. Chalk it up to the fact that I'm not taking this thread any more seriously than anyone else on the first two pages. Especially now that the OP has given up on it anyway.

Stacyhs · 16th June 2020, 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

I'm not saying that you are deliberately engaging in silly hair-splitting in order to provide cover for something purely despicable.
It's just that your logic suggests just that.

I would say it. And do.

dmaker · 16th June 2020, 12:42 PM

Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY

He's allowed his opinion is he not? You are not forced to agree with it just as nobody is forced to agree with yours.

I cannot verify what device the man is holding. I have an opinion of what it could be but there is the end. There is no more evidence to suggest it was a phone than there is to suggest it was a scanning device. Yet nobody seemed to question the BBC fact check.

But President Trump's question about this being a setup is 100% dead on. The tubes leaking "fluid" is evidence shown in the video that does support this was a setup.

Chris B.

I cannot verify that there are straps, not tubes, near the leaking fluid. I have an opinion of what they are, but that is the end. There is no more evidence to suggest tubes than there is to suggest to suggest straps. Yet, you do not seem to question your statement of fact regarding tubes.

theprestige · 16th June 2020, 01:03 PM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

I would say it. And do.

You would be wrong. And are.

Stacyhs · 16th June 2020, 01:11 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

You would be wrong. And are.

And you could be wrong in saying I'm wrong. And are.

How long do you want to play this game?

16th June 2020, 07:28 AM	#282
SuburbanTurkey Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 8,540	The guy is in the hospital with a fractured skull. Are the doctors and nurses also part of the antifa plot?
	__________________ Gobble gobble

16th June 2020, 09:12 AM	#285
TheL8Elvis Philosopher Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 8,276	Originally Posted by theprestige Apologetics is about defense by explanation, not about making excuses. Stacyhs is conflating two related but distinct things. An excuse is not an explanation ? "Q:What's your excuse for being late? A:I had a doctors appointment this morning" I'm not sure it's a distinction with a difference in many cases, and especially in the case we are discussing.
TheL8Elvis Philosopher Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 8,276	__________________ "There is a cult of ignorance in the United States...nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'" - Isaac Asimov

16th June 2020, 09:18 AM	#286
TheL8Elvis Philosopher Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 8,276	Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY He's allowed his opinion is he not? You are not forced to agree with it just as nobody is forced to agree with yours. I cannot verify what device the man is holding. I have an opinion of what it could be but there is the end. There is no more evidence to suggest it was a phone than there is to suggest it was a scanning device. Yet nobody seemed to question the BBC fact check. But President Trump's question about this being a setup is 100% dead on. The tubes leaking "fluid" is evidence shown in the video that does support this was a setup. Chris B. This would mean the police were privy to the setup. Else they would clearly see tubes and know it was fake. This would mean the hospital and doctors and ambulance crew are privy to the setup. Because they had to lie about his injuries. Why have none of these people come out and told us this was a setup ? The claim this was a setup is ******* insane.
TheL8Elvis Philosopher Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 8,276	__________________ "There is a cult of ignorance in the United States...nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'" - Isaac Asimov

16th June 2020, 09:22 AM	#287
dann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 13,933	I have said this once before, but I think it's time to repeat it again: At this point, it has become obvious to almost everybody what Trump stands for. Most of his fascist fans will probably continue to worship him. A few will feel let down by him for losing. But as for the rest of them, I advise you to try to think a little strategically, which is not the same thing as being an opportunist. I can see why it is easier for me as somebody who doesn't live in the USA to say so, but it is probably a bad idea to keep asking Trump's fanbase to defend him now that they are losing the motivation to do so. If they haven't already abandoned him, they are probably in the process of coming up with excuses for doing so. Why not let them? Give them a chance to turn their backs on him and his racist, reactionary politics. I don't think that proving ourselves right and them wrong serves any really meaningful purpose. Their excuses for no longer believing in him are probably going to be as lame as their reasons for believing in him in the first place, but unless those excuses are part of a more general (and wrong) argument, I don't see much point in asking them to defend their position. Let it go.
	__________________ /dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

16th June 2020, 10:59 AM	#289
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 28,593	Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis This would mean the police were privy to the setup. Else they would clearly see tubes and know it was fake. This would mean the hospital and doctors and ambulance crew are privy to the setup. Because they had to lie about his injuries. Why have none of these people come out and told us this was a setup ? The claim this was a setup is ******* insane. This! Absolutely. If the cops at the scene don't come to Trump's conclusion, what justification does Trump or anyone else have? None. The police assisted him... At least after they walked over him. If they noticed he had a police scanner in his hand, you don't think they wouldn't have noticed?
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

16th June 2020, 07:25 AM	#281
dmaker Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,690	Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY But President Trump's question about this being a setup is 100% dead on. The tubes leaking "fluid" is evidence shown in the video that does support this was a setup. Chris B. How do you know there are tubes? If something that looks like a cell phone isn't necessarily a cell phone (your argument), then how can you say as a fact that there are tubes? Perhaps they are straps for a mask?

16th June 2020, 07:42 AM	#283
The Don Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sir Fynwy Posts: 31,618	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey The guy is in the hospital with a fractured skull. Are the doctors and nurses also part of the antifa plot? Yes, they're all part of the DeEP sTaTE conspiracy.

16th June 2020, 08:40 AM	#284
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 50,639	Apologetics is about defense by explanation, not about making excuses. Stacyhs is conflating two related but distinct things.

16th June 2020, 10:24 AM	#288
The Shrike Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Oklahoma, USA Posts: 5,147	"When people show you who they are, believe them." ~Oprah Winfrey/Maya Angelou

16th June 2020, 11:04 AM	#290
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 50,639	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey The guy is in the hospital with a fractured skull. Are the doctors and nurses also part of the antifa plot? Point of logic: It's not necessary to assume a conspiracy. A fraudster overcommitting to a fall can suffer a real injury and require real treatment from non-conspirators. I'm not saying that's what happened here, just that your logic sucks and your argument doesn't actually follow. --- A stuntman breaks his leg during a stunt. Is the doctor who sets the bone treating a real injury, or is he just part of the stunt?

16th June 2020, 11:11 AM	#291
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 14,874	Originally Posted by theprestige Point of logic: It's not necessary to assume a conspiracy. A fraudster overcommitting to a fall can suffer a real injury and require real treatment from non-conspirators. I'm not saying that's what happened here, just that your logic sucks and your argument doesn't actually follow. --- A stuntman breaks his leg during a stunt. Is the doctor who sets the bone treating a real injury, or is he just part of the stunt? this "logic" is predicated on the assumption that an old man would risk death for a little publicity stunt.
	__________________ The things that you're liable To read in the Bible It ain't necessarily so

16th June 2020, 11:11 AM	#292
SuburbanTurkey Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 8,540	Originally Posted by theprestige Point of logic: It's not necessary to assume a conspiracy. A fraudster overcommitting to a fall can suffer a real injury and require real treatment from non-conspirators. I'm not saying that's what happened here, just that your logic sucks and your argument doesn't actually follow. --- A stuntman breaks his leg during a stunt. Is the doctor who sets the bone treating a real injury, or is he just part of the stunt? Is that the claim? That the man meant to pretend to break his own head using a set of fake blood tubes, but then actually broke his own head, and no one involved in providing aid noticed this hoax equipment attached to his injured head?
	__________________ Gobble gobble

16th June 2020, 11:16 AM	#293
portlandatheist Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 3,636	It is not hyperbole to state that Trump voters have completely lost their ******* minds

16th June 2020, 11:22 AM	#294
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 50,639	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey Is that the claim? That the man meant to pretend to break his own head using a set of fake blood tubes, but then actually broke his own head, and no one involved in providing aid noticed this hoax equipment attached to his injured head? Begs the question that the fall would have been intended to fake a broken head. I think a much more reasonable fake fall scenario would be one where the video record of the cops pushing over an old man for no reason was the goal, and all of the injuries arising from overcommitting to the fall were real and unintended. Again, not saying that's what happened. Just that your logic continues to be ass and your argument still doesn't follow.

16th June 2020, 11:23 AM	#295
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 50,639	Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza this "logic" is predicated on the assumption that an old man would risk death for a little publicity stunt. Humans of all ages are notoriously bad at assessing risk. Humans of all ages are renowned for putting their lives at risk for causes they believe in. I think this is much more logical than ST's "either the fall was real or the doctors are in on it" binary choice.

16th June 2020, 11:24 AM	#296
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 50,639	Originally Posted by portlandatheist It is not hyperbole to state that Trump voters have completely lost their ******* minds Looks like textbook hyperbole to me.

16th June 2020, 11:25 AM	#297
SuburbanTurkey Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 8,540	Originally Posted by theprestige Begs the question that the fall would have been intended to fake a broken head. I think a much more reasonable fake fall scenario would be one where the video record of the cops pushing over an old man for no reason was the goal, and all of the injuries arising from overcommitting to the fall were real and unintended. Again, not saying that's what happened. Just that your logic continues to be ass and your argument still doesn't follow. Claims have been made about a fake blood apparatus and a secret-squirrel type scanner. Are you unaware of this?
	__________________ Gobble gobble Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 16th June 2020 at 11:30 AM.

16th June 2020, 11:26 AM	#298
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 14,874	Originally Posted by theprestige Begs the question that the fall would have been intended to fake a broken head. I think a much more reasonable fake fall scenario would be one where the video record of the cops pushing over an old man for no reason was the goal, and all of the injuries arising from overcommitting to the fall were real and unintended. Again, not saying that's what happened. Just that your logic continues to be ass and your argument still doesn't follow. I'm not saying that you are deliberately engaging in silly hair-splitting in order to provide cover for something purely despicable. It's just that your logic suggests just that.
	__________________ The things that you're liable To read in the Bible It ain't necessarily so

16th June 2020, 11:36 AM	#299
portlandatheist Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 3,636	Originally Posted by theprestige Looks like textbook hyperbole to me. Recommended reading for you from the American Interest on The Present Madness Quote: Societies do not go mad. They do not go crazy or insane, become manifestly irrational, lose their collective ****. These are mere figures of speech. Except that they do, temporarily at least. Just as there are sudden financial market swoons, so-called Minsky moments, there are “Lord of the Flies” moments.

16th June 2020, 11:40 AM	#300
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 50,639	Originally Posted by portlandatheist Recommended reading for you from the American Interest on The Present Madness Still looks like hyperbole to me. Would you be willing to point to specific arguments in this thread, and say, "this seems like crazy talk, and here's why I think so: ________________" (filling in the blank with why you think so)?

16th June 2020, 11:42 AM	#301
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 50,639	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey Claims have been made about a fake blood apparatus I'm not aware of such claims. If you're addressing such claims, then your logic makes more sense.

16th June 2020, 11:47 AM	#302
SuburbanTurkey Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 8,540	Originally Posted by theprestige I'm not aware of such claims. If you're addressing such claims, then your logic makes more sense. Sure, the least insane theory, that he took a dive and botched it, resulting in real injury, is not disprovable. You'd have to be a mind reader to know such things. It's also not disprovable that invisible faeries pushed him down, or a malevolent spirit used telekinesis.
	__________________ Gobble gobble

16th June 2020, 11:49 AM	#303
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 50,639	Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza I'm not saying that you are deliberately engaging in silly hair-splitting in order to provide cover for something purely despicable. I've PM'd Trebuchet with my actual opinion on the original question. He knows where I stand. As far as I'm concerned, that discharges my only serious obligation to this thread. I am now amusing myself by addressing other narrow points that catch my eye. I take it for granted that you won't lose sight of the central issue. I'd consider it a waste of time to try to obfuscate that from you. The idea of doing that never crossed my mind. Quote: It's just that your logic suggests just that. I'm sorry you feel that way. Logic is logic. Whatever you infer from it, the reasoning itself still stands or falls on its own merits. Are you resorting to a non sequitur because you have no rebuttal to the argument I'm actually making? Also, at this point it's up to you. I've answered the original question to my satisfaction and I think to Trebuchet's satisfaction. If you think you need to keep focused on it and not be distracted by these other questions, I'm not chaining you down to this sidebar.

16th June 2020, 11:51 AM	#304
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 14,874	What is the point of making up far-fetched exculpatory scenarios if not to shift blame?
	__________________ The things that you're liable To read in the Bible It ain't necessarily so

16th June 2020, 12:04 PM	#305
autumn1971 Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 3,304	Originally Posted by theprestige Begged question aside... Who here has tried that, though? There's maybe two people in this thread who might be expected to try it. I know I haven't. I don't think Chris has, either. ETA: I mean, smartcooky isn't even trying to defend the claim that reporting facts eliminates reporter bias, and that really is indefensible. I respect you, and I read all of your post because I honestly learn things. In this case we have a poster who ignores the fact that the BBC was referencing a tweet by the POTUS. It is ignored page after page. The poster is not arguing in good faith. Or even medium faith. Flav-or-Aide, maybe. No, definitely
autumn1971 Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 3,304	__________________ 'A knave; a rascal; an eater of broken meats; a base, proud, shallow, beggardly, three-suited, hundred-pound, filthy, worsted-stocking knave; a lily-livered, action-taking knave, a whoreson, glass-gazing, superservicable, finical rogue;... the son and heir of a mongral bitch: one whom I will beat into clamorous whining, if thou deniest the least syllable of thy addition."' -The Bard

16th June 2020, 12:11 PM	#306
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 24,350	Originally Posted by smartcooky From NYG's attached image.... "They do not deserve to be vilified and treated like criminals for simply following orders" Hmmm. Sounds familiar? Can anyone here suggest where they might have heard this claim before? A chap by the name of Peter von Hagenbach tried it back in '74 (1474 that was). They chopped his head off.
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

16th June 2020, 12:14 PM	#307
P.J. Denyer Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 8,013	Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY To be clear, I was not alleging he was holding a RF scanner in his hand. I was pointing out it would be dishonest to do so as you cannot tell from the video what the device is. It does look like a phone, but it also looks like other things so one cannot make an honest determination of exactly what it is. We can have an opinion about what it is and that's fine. However the BBC fact checker goes from opinion to statement of fact about the device in his hand being a phone. A fact checker. Facts are supposed to be facts, not cleverly prequalified opinions. Regardless, it makes no difference now. After viewing the close up video of the liquid (alleged blood) flowing from the rubber tubes to the ground the entire situation was a preplanned interaction with police for the camera. It was a setup. Chris B. So "No I can't. Look at that squirrel!!!". Okay.
P.J. Denyer Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 8,013	__________________ "I know my brain cannot tell me what to think." - Scorpion "Nebulous means Nebulous" - Adam Hills

16th June 2020, 12:15 PM	#308
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 24,350	Originally Posted by bruto How do you fall harder than you were pushed? Hidden jets? I'm f having flashbacks to the 911 nuts.
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

16th June 2020, 12:17 PM	#309
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 18,232	Quote: Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post This would mean the police were privy to the setup. Else they would clearly see tubes and know it was fake. This would mean the hospital and doctors and ambulance crew are privy to the setup. Because they had to lie about his injuries. Why have none of these people come out and told us this was a setup ?The claim this was a setup is ***** insane. Originally Posted by acbytesla** This! Absolutely. If the cops at the scene don't come to Trump's conclusion, what justification does Trump or anyone else have? None. The police assisted him... At least after they walked over him. If they noticed he had a police scanner in his hand, you don't think they wouldn't have noticed? Don't confuse the CTers with facts and logic. The cognitive dissonance may make their heads explode.
	Last edited by Stacyhs; 16th June 2020 at 12:19 PM.

16th June 2020, 12:18 PM	#310
thaiboxerken Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 31,717	Originally Posted by theprestige Looks like textbook hyperbole to me. I agree. To be accurate, he should have just stated that the ones in this thread have lost their minds.
	__________________ 1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it.

16th June 2020, 12:20 PM	#311
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 50,639	Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza What is the point of making up far-fetched exculpatory scenarios if not to shift blame? You'll have to ask whoever is making up far-fetched exculpatory scenarios. I'm allowed to point out flawed logic in rebutting such scenarios, without having to endorse the scenarios themselves. And that is, in fact, the case. You seem committed to the idea that I must be mounting some sort of defense of the tweet, for you to rebut.

16th June 2020, 12:20 PM	#312
P.J. Denyer Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 8,013	Originally Posted by theprestige I'm not aware of such claims. If you're addressing such claims, then your logic makes more sense. Are you not reading Chris' posts in this thread?
P.J. Denyer Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 8,013	__________________ "I know my brain cannot tell me what to think." - Scorpion "Nebulous means Nebulous" - Adam Hills

16th June 2020, 12:25 PM	#313
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 50,639	Originally Posted by bruto How do you fall harder than you were pushed? Hidden jets? Without endorsing the president's claims, I think there's at least one obvious scenario: You're pushed hard enough to that you tumble before regaining your footing, and you choose not to regain your footing and simply continue to fall. I understand that some footballers are notorious for this kind of "fall harder than pushed" nonsense. I also understand that similar techniques are fundamental to choreographing believable fight scenes in movies. Is my understanding incorrect? Are hidden jets the only answer to these and other similar scenarios?

16th June 2020, 12:27 PM	#314
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 50,639	Originally Posted by thaiboxerken I agree. To be accurate, he should have just stated that the ones in this thread have lost their minds. That would be against the MA. He should have stated that specific arguments seemed crazy, and explained why he thought so.

16th June 2020, 12:29 PM	#315
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 18,232	Originally Posted by theprestige Apologetics is about defense by explanation, not about making excuses. Stacyhs is conflating two related but distinct things. No, I am not conflating anything. It is merely an argument in defense of something. That defense can be in any form, including excuses as in the example TheL8Elvis has already given.