IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags antifa conspiracies , assault incidents , donald trump , Martin Gugino , police incidents , police misconduct charges

Reply
Old 16th June 2020, 01:13 PM   #321
pgwenthold
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 20,228
Originally Posted by dmaker View Post
I cannot verify that there are straps, not tubes, near the leaking fluid. I have an opinion of what they are, but that is the end. There is no more evidence to suggest tubes than there is to suggest to suggest straps. Yet, you do not seem to question your statement of fact regarding tubes.
I'm reminded of the SNL skit with Dana Carvey doing a Ross Perot impression: "If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it might just be a spastic monkey with flat feet"

You know the saying that when you hear hoofbeats, think horses not zebras. These guys are hearing hoofbeats and thinking rainbow unicorns on acid.
__________________
"As your friend, I have to be honest with you: I don't care about you or your problems" - Chloe, Secret Life of Pets
pgwenthold is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th June 2020, 01:17 PM   #322
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 50,639
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
And you could be wrong in saying I'm wrong. And are.

How long do you want to play this game?
I don't really see it as a game. You're accusing me of motives I know I don't have. Refusing to be corrected on this point is a game to you?
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th June 2020, 01:33 PM   #323
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 18,232
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I don't really see it as a game. You're accusing me of motives I know I don't have. Refusing to be corrected on this point is a game to you?
I calls 'em as I sees 'em. Now you can respond to this because you have an overwhelming need to have the last word on everything. I don't.



Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th June 2020, 01:54 PM   #324
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 50,639
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I calls 'em as I sees 'em. Now you can respond to this because you have an overwhelming need to have the last word on everything. I don't.
In this case, you sees 'em wrong, and calls 'em wrong.

Glad we could get that resolved to everybody's satisfaction.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th June 2020, 01:58 PM   #325
Minoosh
Penultimate Amazing
 
Minoosh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 12,340
Originally Posted by dann View Post
I have said this once before, but I think it's time to repeat it again:

At this point, it has become obvious to almost everybody what Trump stands for. Most of his fascist fans will probably continue to worship him. A few will feel let down by him for losing.
But as for the rest of them, I advise you to try to think a little strategically, which is not the same thing as being an opportunist.

I can see why it is easier for me as somebody who doesn't live in the USA to say so, but it is probably a bad idea to keep asking Trump's fanbase to defend him now that they are losing the motivation to do so. If they haven't already abandoned him, they are probably in the process of coming up with excuses for doing so. Why not let them?

Give them a chance to turn their backs on him and his racist, reactionary politics.
I don't think that proving ourselves right and them wrong serves any really meaningful purpose. Their excuses for no longer believing in him are probably going to be as lame as their reasons for believing in him in the first place, but unless those excuses are part of a more general (and wrong) argument, I don't see much point in asking them to defend their position.

Let it go.
I agree with all this. Let support fall away, don't keep putting his more reasonable supporters on the defensive, because it's only natural they will dig in, making their sunk costs even more entrenched.

Just a hunch on my part, but you expressed this sentiment very well.
Minoosh is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th June 2020, 02:14 PM   #326
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 17,219
Originally Posted by dann View Post
I have said this once before, but I think it's time to repeat it again:

At this point, it has become obvious to almost everybody what Trump stands for. Most of his fascist fans will probably continue to worship him. A few will feel let down by him for losing.
But as for the rest of them, I advise you to try to think a little strategically, which is not the same thing as being an opportunist.

I can see why it is easier for me as somebody who doesn't live in the USA to say so, but it is probably a bad idea to keep asking Trump's fanbase to defend him now that they are losing the motivation to do so. If they haven't already abandoned him, they are probably in the process of coming up with excuses for doing so. Why not let them?

Give them a chance to turn their backs on him and his racist, reactionary politics.
I don't think that proving ourselves right and them wrong serves any really meaningful purpose. Their excuses for no longer believing in him are probably going to be as lame as their reasons for believing in him in the first place, but unless those excuses are part of a more general (and wrong) argument, I don't see much point in asking them to defend their position.

Let it go.
Agree.

There are people (some on this very forum) who would blindly follow anyone ranging from Micky Mouse to Adolph Hitler, so long as they were running on the Republican ticket! This attitude is without reason - you cannot use reason and logic to turn these people from their worldview, because its wasn't reason or logic that got them into it, it was blind loyalty to the tribe.
__________________
I want to thank the 126 Republican Congress members for providing a convenient and well organized list for the mid-terms.
- Fred Wellman (Senior VA Advisor to The Lincoln Project)
If you don't like my posts, my opinions, or my directness then put me on your ignore list. This will be of benefit to both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste my time talking to you... simples! !
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th June 2020, 02:17 PM   #327
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
 
bruto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy
Posts: 28,270
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm not aware of such claims. If you're addressing such claims, then your logic makes more sense.
I believe that ChrisBFRKY has directly alleged this or come so close that any linguistic escape clause would be a technicality. While it's possible to read Chris's statements as being something less than absolute certainty, I think it would be dishonest or actually insane to suggest that his statements are not an allegation.
__________________
I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver)

Quand il dit "cuic" le moineau croit tout dire. (When he's tweeted the sparrow thinks he's said it all. (Jules Renard)
bruto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th June 2020, 02:57 PM   #328
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 50,639
Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I believe that ChrisBFRKY has directly alleged this or come so close that any linguistic escape clause would be a technicality. While it's possible to read Chris's statements as being something less than absolute certainty, I think it would be dishonest or actually insane to suggest that his statements are not an allegation.
Fair enough. Carry on.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th June 2020, 08:55 PM   #329
Giordano
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 17,646
As noted upthread the conspiracy must be massive and extend to the medical profession:
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/16/u...ull/index.html
Giordano is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th June 2020, 08:05 PM   #330
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 50,583
Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
As noted upthread the conspiracy must be massive and extend to the medical profession:
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/16/u...ull/index.html
If there is a massive conapiracy against Donald Trump, where the hell do I go to join?
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th June 2020, 03:11 AM   #331
P.J. Denyer
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 8,013
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
If there is a massive conapiracy against Donald Trump, where the hell do I go to join?
On a world wide scale it's more an 'opt-out' option for his supporters than a 'join' for the rest of us.
__________________
"I know my brain cannot tell me what to think." - Scorpion

"Nebulous means Nebulous" - Adam Hills
P.J. Denyer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th June 2020, 06:36 AM   #332
Crazy Chainsaw
Philosopher
 
Crazy Chainsaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 5,465
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
If there is a massive conapiracy against Donald Trump, where the hell do I go to join?
I have been looking for that group since 2008, and all I find are real live Truth tellers and Patriots. Can't find one Conspiracy theorist, well except for Donald John Trump and his idiot Infowarior followers.
Crazy Chainsaw is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st June 2020, 05:33 AM   #333
P.J. Denyer
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 8,013
Well Trebuchet, I think you have your answer "Not Credibly"
__________________
"I know my brain cannot tell me what to think." - Scorpion

"Nebulous means Nebulous" - Adam Hills
P.J. Denyer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st June 2020, 07:37 AM   #334
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
 
bruto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy
Posts: 28,270
Interesting, since I don't think ChrisBFRKY is the only Trump supporter around. I don't think much of his ideas here, obviously, but at least he tried.

I think a lot of other Trump supporters find it possible to do so on abstract grounds even though they distance themselves from everything he actually does or says.

I recall back in the olden days a lot of Democrats felt that way about Lyndon Johnson. He's a villain but he's our villain. The job of handling turned out to be a little harder than they thought.
__________________
I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver)

Quand il dit "cuic" le moineau croit tout dire. (When he's tweeted the sparrow thinks he's said it all. (Jules Renard)
bruto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st June 2020, 08:02 AM   #335
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,933
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
If there is a massive conapiracy against Donald Trump, where the hell do I go to join?

Is this a discussion of corona piracy?
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st June 2020, 09:20 AM   #336
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 50,639
Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
Well Trebuchet, I think you have your answer "Not Credibly"
It wasn't a credible thread to begin with. Chris gave it a lot more attention and respect than it deserved, IMO.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st June 2020, 09:47 AM   #337
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
 
bruto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy
Posts: 28,270
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It wasn't a credible thread to begin with. Chris gave it a lot more attention and respect than it deserved, IMO.
Why wasn't it credible? Of course we know it was asked from the point of view of someone who believes Trumps statement was insupportable, but the statement was real and the president is real. It seems the only way to say that the thread was not credible would be to start with the assumption that what the president says is meaningless.
__________________
I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver)

Quand il dit "cuic" le moineau croit tout dire. (When he's tweeted the sparrow thinks he's said it all. (Jules Renard)
bruto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st June 2020, 12:40 PM   #338
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 18,232
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It wasn't a credible thread to begin with. Chris gave it a lot more attention and respect than it deserved, IMO.
Why?
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st June 2020, 01:25 PM   #339
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 50,639
Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Why wasn't it credible? Of course we know it was asked from the point of view of someone who believes Trumps statement was insupportable, but the statement was real and the president is real. It seems the only way to say that the thread was not credible would be to start with the assumption that what the president says is meaningless.
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Why?
First, there's this from the OP:
Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Non-supporters: Please refrain and give the supporters a day or two to answer. I'd very much appreciate it. You can discuss in the general Trump thread.
And this a few posts in:
Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
I'd really appreciate it if the non-supporters would stay out for a day or so.
Promptly followed by a day or two of non-supporters piling into the thread anyway. So right off the bat we know that nobody was actually taking thread seriously. Including, notably, bruto and Stacyhs, who both contributed during that period.

Then there's this exchange, about a day or so in:
Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
You asked for a day or so and got 8 or 9 minutes. So, the thread was illustrative in one sense.
Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Yup.
And within a day or two of starting the thread:
Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
I apologize for starting this thread.
Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
This thread was a dumb idea. I'm going to request the mods delete it. It's a borderline callout thread anyhow.
So nobody else was taking the thread seriously. I took it seriously enough to PM my answer to Trebuchet, but saw no point in trying to contribute to the thread itself. Even Treb gave up on it pretty quick.

I think it's credible that Trebuchet was originally making a good-faith attempt to invite discussion. I don't think it was ever credible that the thread would turn out that way. The posts made during the first couple of days after Trebuchet asked the membership to refrain from such posts pretty much confirmed that.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st June 2020, 02:14 PM   #340
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 18,232
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
First, there's this from the OP:


And this a few posts in:


Promptly followed by a day or two of non-supporters piling into the thread anyway. So right off the bat we know that nobody was actually taking thread seriously. Including, notably, bruto and Stacyhs, who both contributed during that period.

That is an extremely poor argument as to why the thread wasn't "credible". The fact that people, including me, posted before a 'day or two' has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on whether it was credible or not. The tweet from Trump remains the same and the question Trebuchet asked remains the same.
Quote:
Then there's this exchange, about a day or so in:




And within a day or two of starting the thread:




So nobody else was taking the thread seriously. I took it seriously enough to PM my answer to Trebuchet, but saw no point in trying to contribute to the thread itself. Even Treb gave up on it pretty quick.

I think it's credible that Trebuchet was originally making a good-faith attempt to invite discussion. I don't think it was ever credible that the thread would turn out that way. The posts made during the first couple of days after Trebuchet asked the membership to refrain from such posts pretty much confirmed that.
Nobody was taking it seriously? That is just plain false. I took it seriously and so did many others as reflected in their posts.

AS for Trebuchet changing his mind about posting it, that does not change the fact that several people discussed it seriously and that included Chris.
Trebuchet decided it was a 'dumb idea' on June 9th and Chris, the only Trump supporter to actually try to defend the tweet, didn't post until June 12th. He may have been the only Trumper to do so but that doesn't make the question any less credible.

If those are your only reasons for declaring it not credible, you've failed in your argument.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st June 2020, 08:04 PM   #341
a_unique_person
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
 
a_unique_person's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Waiting for the pod bay door to open.
Posts: 43,088
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
this "logic" is predicated on the assumption that an old man would risk death for a little publicity stunt.
I think he knew he was taking risk. I don't think he assessed the risk properly.

Meanwhile, I would love to see the zoom in of these medical tubes.
__________________
Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.
Everything is possible, but not everything is probable.
“Perception is real, but the truth is not.” - Imelda Marcos
a_unique_person is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st June 2020, 09:03 PM   #342
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 17,219
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
That is an extremely poor argument as to why the thread wasn't "credible". The fact that people, including me, posted before a 'day or two' has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on whether it was credible or not. The tweet from Trump remains the same and the question Trebuchet asked remains the same.


Nobody was taking it seriously? That is just plain false. I took it seriously and so did many others as reflected in their posts.

AS for Trebuchet changing his mind about posting it, that does not change the fact that several people discussed it seriously and that included Chris.
Trebuchet decided it was a 'dumb idea' on June 9th and Chris, the only Trump supporter to actually try to defend the tweet, didn't post until June 12th. He may have been the only Trumper to do so but that doesn't make the question any less credible.

If those are your only reasons for declaring it not credible, you've failed in your argument.
Check the body of work.

theprestige has been pretty much dismissive of anything that criticizes Dear Leader, so its quite understandable that he sees no reason why this thread should be any different.
__________________
I want to thank the 126 Republican Congress members for providing a convenient and well organized list for the mid-terms.
- Fred Wellman (Senior VA Advisor to The Lincoln Project)
If you don't like my posts, my opinions, or my directness then put me on your ignore list. This will be of benefit to both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste my time talking to you... simples! !

Last edited by smartcooky; 21st June 2020 at 09:16 PM.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2020, 10:50 AM   #343
P.J. Denyer
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 8,013
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Check the body of work.

theprestige has been pretty much dismissive of anything that criticizes Dear Leader, so its quite understandable that he sees no reason why this thread should be any different.
Now that the President drinking a glass of water with one hand instead of looking like he needs a sippy cup has become the level that qualifies as a 'Suck It Libs' event, I think you have to feel a certain sympathy for anyone who obviously isn't stupid but for some reason still feels compelled to support him.
__________________
"I know my brain cannot tell me what to think." - Scorpion

"Nebulous means Nebulous" - Adam Hills
P.J. Denyer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2020, 11:03 AM   #344
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 18,232
Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
Now that the President drinking a glass of water with one hand instead of looking like he needs a sippy cup has become the level that qualifies as a 'Suck It Libs' event, I think you have to feel a certain sympathy for anyone who obviously isn't stupid but for some reason still feels compelled to support him.
This is what gets me about Trump supporters. The amount of self-delusion it takes for someone of at least average intelligence to continue defending Trump is incredible.

For someone as right wing as Bolton to say he'll vote for a Democrat rather than Trump has got to tell them something about how dangerous he considers him. But, somehow, they delude themselves with such hand waving away excuses as "he's just disgruntled because he was fired".
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2020, 11:11 AM   #345
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 50,639
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
That is an extremely poor argument as to why the thread wasn't "credible". The fact that people, including me, posted before a 'day or two' has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on whether it was credible or not. The tweet from Trump remains the same and the question Trebuchet asked remains the same.


Nobody was taking it seriously? That is just plain false. I took it seriously and so did many others as reflected in their posts.

AS for Trebuchet changing his mind about posting it, that does not change the fact that several people discussed it seriously and that included Chris.
Trebuchet decided it was a 'dumb idea' on June 9th and Chris, the only Trump supporter to actually try to defend the tweet, didn't post until June 12th. He may have been the only Trumper to do so but that doesn't make the question any less credible.

If those are your only reasons for declaring it not credible, you've failed in your argument.
The question is credible. The idea that the thread would engender good-faith discussion of the question was not. Given that it only took eight minutes for people to start posting in bad faith, I stand by my assessment.

Anyway, I took the tweet seriously, and I took Trebuchet's question seriously. I sent him my good-faith answer via PM. So there's that sorted.

The only thing I didn't take seriously was the discussion the non-supporters were trying to have in this thread. Because it was not - and still is not - credibly serious.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2020, 11:38 AM   #346
Leftus
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 2,480
Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
I cannot verify what device the man is holding. I have an opinion of what it could be but there is the end. There is no more evidence to suggest it was a phone than there is to suggest it was a scanning device. Yet nobody seemed to question the BBC fact check.
Chris B.
Well, since it doesn't look like a scanner, but looks like a phone, and you don't have to aim a scanner or wave it around for it to work, the idea it's a scanner has no legs. Horses, not Zebras. It was a phone.

Go ahead, go to amazon and find a scanner that looks like a modern smart phone.

Also, even if it were a scanner, what would be the purpose? To find out what specific radio frequency they are using? You can do that from a distance. You don't need to be inches away. Same thing to jam communications. Anyone with enough skill to build a scanner in that form factor would also be skilled enough to build a wide spectrum scanner.

But this is all fantasy. Zero reports of jammed communications from this non-existent scanner.
Leftus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2020, 12:19 PM   #347
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 18,232
Quote:
Originally Posted by theprestige
It wasn't a credible thread to begin with. Chris gave it a lot more attention and respect than it deserved, IMO.
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The question is credible. The idea that the thread would engender good-faith discussion of the question was not. Given that it only took eight minutes for people to start posting in bad faith, I stand by my assessment.

Anyway, I took the tweet seriously, and I took Trebuchet's question seriously. I sent him my good-faith answer via PM. So there's that sorted.

The only thing I didn't take seriously was the discussion the non-supporters were trying to have in this thread. Because it was not - and still is not - credibly serious.
Wow. That's some spinning there. I didn't see anyone posting in bad faith. That is entirely your concoction.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2020, 12:42 PM   #348
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 50,639
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Wow. That's some spinning there. I didn't see anyone posting in bad faith. That is entirely your concoction.
You say concoction, I say opinion.

In my opinion, non-supporters immediately piling into the thread after Trebuchet asked them to hold off for a bit was a bad faith gesture.

I'm curious how you rationalize the first day's posts as being a gesture of good faith towards Trebuchet, the premise of the thread, or the intended respondents.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2020, 12:45 PM   #349
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 50,639
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Wow. That's some spinning there.
Context matters. The question is credible in principle. In the context of this forum and its membership, I didn't see a thread about it being credibly worth trying to contribute to. Within 8 minutes, my hunch was proven correct.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2020, 01:00 PM   #350
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 18,232
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You say concoction, I say opinion.

In my opinion, non-supporters immediately piling into the thread after Trebuchet asked them to hold off for a bit was a bad faith gesture.

I'm curious how you rationalize the first day's posts as being a gesture of good faith towards Trebuchet, the premise of the thread, or the intended respondents.

Quote:
Originally Posted by theprestige
It wasn't a credible thread to begin with. Chris gave it a lot more attention and respect than it deserved, IMO.
More spin. Your claim was that the "THREAD wasn't credible" and that "nobody was actually taking the thread seriously".
The timing of when anyone posted does not make their posts in bad faith nor does it make them flippant. You're entitled to your opinion but not your own facts. I'm not going to keep beating this dead horse because I know where it's going: you insisting on having the last word. Like Geico, it's what you do.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2020, 02:07 PM   #351
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 50,639
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
More spin. Your claim was that the "THREAD wasn't credible" and that "nobody was actually taking the thread seriously".
The timing of when anyone posted does not make their posts in bad faith nor does it make them flippant. You're entitled to your opinion but not your own facts. I'm not going to keep beating this dead horse because I know where it's going: you insisting on having the last word. Like Geico, it's what you do.
Heh. Now I have a mental image of you checking this thread every few days to see if I've put in my last word.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2020, 02:09 PM   #352
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 21,482
Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
Well, since it doesn't look like a scanner, but looks like a phone, and you don't have to aim a scanner or wave it around for it to work, the idea it's a scanner has no legs. Horses, not Zebras. It was a phone.
This is what is so dumb about the claims. Scanners look nothing like the device in question, are not directional so don't need aiming, and don't need to be anywhere near to pick up the signal.

But that won't stop chris from making those claims over and over.

All of mine easily covered a whole city, no aiming required, and the frequencies a PD anyway, so you just preprogram them. Done. No need for seek mode.

Much more fun were the Russian number stations, or the US EAM system. Those broadcast in the HF range for the global range that provides.

The Russian ones are thought to be instructions to spies around the globe. They consist of a (usually) female voice carefully reading a sequence of numbers in monotone. This has the advantage of communicating a message to the spy/spies and all the recipient has to do is listen and then decode. There is no way to detect where in the world the spy might be. He/she is merely listening, not transmitting. Since HF uses the ionosphere to bounce around the globe, it goes everywhere. Thus, there is no way to localise the spook. They interestingly had a timetable.

The US EAM system is similar in practical operation, but different in the detail. They tend to use the NATO phonetic alphabet, not numbers along with a selection of code words. Those messages are not for spies. They are operational orders to active military units. NATO alphabet aside, some of the code words were identified. For example the code word "Skyking" was quickly identified as a preface indicating an actual deployment of some sort in real life by correlating the "SkyKing" call with actual asset movements.

Examples of EAM

Examples of Russian numbers and others
including Cuba, NorKor, well pretty much everyone.

Nobody has ever claimed to have cracked any of it. And the military aren't saying because why the hell would they?

After that over long explanation, what was my point? I have tuned in this stuff personally on my own gear. None of my gear looks like a cell phone. Gear I cannot afford looks nothing like a cell phone. I can pic my gear and upload it to my imgur and post it here. Still looks nothing like a cell phone. I can post you the tech specs. Still nothing like a cell phone, they more resemble a house brick with a wideband omni-helical coil antenna sticking out the top.

Bottom line? He has no clue what he is talking about.

Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
Go ahead, go to amazon and find a scanner that looks like a modern smart phone.
Not a chance. The fantasy is preferable to him apparently.

Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
Also, even if it were a scanner, what would be the purpose? To find out what specific radio frequency they are using? You can do that from a distance.
Without aiming anything at anything. Or just look it up on the internet.

Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
You don't need to be inches away.
Correct. One can do it from miles away. Literally.

Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
Same thing to jam communications. Anyone with enough skill to build a scanner in that form factor would also be skilled enough to build a wide spectrum scanner.
Or else employed by Huawei.

Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
But this is all fantasy. Zero reports of jammed communications from this non-existent scanner.
Sure. But they desperately need it to be true.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?


...love and buttercakes...
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2020, 02:54 PM   #353
Leftus
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 2,480
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Correct. One can do it from miles away. Literally.
This is the entire problem with the scanner narrative. Even if you didn't have the specific channel they were using that day, or that hour, you could wide band the entire spectrum used by the police. Miles away.

If he were a rebel of worth, skilled in electronic warfare, he would know this, and fight the battle from his La-Z-Boy. Bit harder these days with Radio Shack shut down, but a peg-board, some diodes and resisters, and you could have a dirty transmitter in a few minutes. He is old enough to perhaps even have built a transistor radio from a kit, back in his youth. Not wholly dissimilar.

I'm trying to think of something you could do as easily in your chair at home, with almost no risk, that you would eschew that and get into punching range.

I could be wrong but jamming radio waves like that is a federal crime. If he had this fantabulous device that could scan and jam, then the FCC I think could get involved. Also, such a device would be awesome, but illegal so it would certainly be custom built. But, again, nobody claimed, before or after, they were having radio issues.
Leftus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2020, 03:06 PM   #354
pgwenthold
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 20,228
Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
Well, since it doesn't look like a scanner, but looks like a phone, and you don't have to aim a scanner or wave it around for it to work, the idea it's a scanner has no legs. Horses, not Zebras. It was a phone.

.
I will modify what I said above. They heard hoofbeats and didn't think zebras but went with flying unicorns.
__________________
"As your friend, I have to be honest with you: I don't care about you or your problems" - Chloe, Secret Life of Pets
pgwenthold is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2020, 04:12 PM   #355
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 18,232
This is what happens when conspiracy theories are taken seriously.

Protester Martin Gugino recovering at ‘undisclosed location’ amid death threats
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2020, 04:52 PM   #356
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
 
Craig4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: I live in a swamp
Posts: 22,884
Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
I will modify what I said above. They heard hoofbeats and didn't think zebras but went with flying unicorns.
Why would he need to be so close to the police if he had a scanner? Do the people who believe this nonsense not understand the entire purpose behind the police carrying radios? If the guy wanted to scan police communications, he likely could have done it in the safety and comfort of his living room.
Craig4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2020, 04:58 PM   #357
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 18,232
Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Why would he need to be so close to the police if he had a scanner? Do the people who believe this nonsense not understand the entire purpose behind the police carrying radios? If the guy wanted to scan police communications, he likely could have done it in the safety and comfort of his living room.
Must. Defend. Trump. At. All. Costs. Even. If. We. Don't. Know. What. We're. Talking. About.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2020, 05:23 PM   #358
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 21,482
Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
This is the entire problem with the scanner narrative. Even if you didn't have the specific channel they were using that day, or that hour, you could wide band the entire spectrum used by the police. Miles away.

If he were a rebel of worth, skilled in electronic warfare, he would know this, and fight the battle from his La-Z-Boy. Bit harder these days with Radio Shack shut down, but a peg-board, some diodes and resisters, and you could have a dirty transmitter in a few minutes. He is old enough to perhaps even have built a transistor radio from a kit, back in his youth. Not wholly dissimilar.

I'm trying to think of something you could do as easily in your chair at home, with almost no risk, that you would eschew that and get into punching range.

I could be wrong but jamming radio waves like that is a federal crime. If he had this fantabulous device that could scan and jam, then the FCC I think could get involved. Also, such a device would be awesome, but illegal so it would certainly be custom built. But, again, nobody claimed, before or after, they were having radio issues.
Oh all highly illegal. Back in the pirate radio days, the cops raided quite a few of my mates homes. Their concern was not so much the illegality of the pirate radio as such. It was that it was jamming their frequencies by hurling out spectaculars harmonics on other frequencies. Theirs. Back then the objective was to hurl out as many watts on the 88-108 FM band to broadcast the good vibrations. Nobody considered cleaning the signal for harmonics. That stopped when they managed a serious power upgrade, which would would have been fine, except it blocked out an entire cop district. Then the **** hit the fan.
Glad I was not involved but it was funny as all get out. An entire cop district blanked because of an amateur harmonic.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?


...love and buttercakes...
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2020, 05:47 PM   #359
newyorkguy
Penultimate Amazing
 
newyorkguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: NY
Posts: 11,573
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Must. Defend. Trump. At. All. Costs. Even. If. We. Don't. Know. What. We're. Talking. About.
They only convince themselves and I think that's really their bottom line. That way they can can cling to their narrative that society is under relentless attack and somebody really needs to stand up and say ENOUGH! And if that somebody is donald trump, then they have to support him. Have to!
newyorkguy is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd June 2020, 07:03 AM   #360
Leftus
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 2,480
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Must. Defend. Trump. At. All. Costs. Even. If. We. Don't. Know. What. We're. Talking. About.
The funny thing is, I think they do know something about the subject. They know radios work over long distances. They know cops aren't rebroadcasting messages to HQ. Even if they only stuck to mass media, through WKRP and the Simpsons, they know that radio towers are out in the middle of nowhere, out side of town. A terrorist put a bomb in a toolbox in the transmitter building that Dr. Johnny Fever and one Mr. Venus Flytrap used to beat the lock off something. And our good friend, Side Show Bob attempted to fly a "plane" into the transmitter out in the badlands.

I think they all know, at some level, that you can "scan" radio waves at some distance. They may know nothing about jamming, which is fine, but the act of listening to a radio wave is old hat.
Leftus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:38 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.