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Tags Gable Tostee , murder cases , New Zealand cases

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Old 10th October 2016, 05:22 PM   #1
Samson
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Gable Tostee

At last details emerge

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/ar...ectid=11726687

An explosive audio recording played in court that captured Warriena Wright's final hours in Gable Tostee's Gold Coast apartment has revealed the New Zealander was drunk, at times incomprehensible and repeatedly violent towards the man charged with her murder.

"I've met some weird people on Tinder," the 30-year-old murder accused is heard to say, as the drunk Wright apparently swings in and out of violent episodes towards him.

And

At one point, she accuses him of stealing her phone.

"Where's my ******* ****? My ******* data," she says.

Asked what it looks like, she yells, "it looks like a ******* iPhone".

Wright insists on leaving, but Tostee tries to stop her.

"I didn't say you have to leave, I just said stop beating me up," he said.

She asks him again where her things are.

"I will ******* destroy your jaw. It's not ******* funny," she says.

"Look, that's your stuff right there," he replies.

"Get it for me. Get it for me. Get it for me," she yells.

"I'm calling the police, get it for me. Get it for me now.


Then he locks her on the balcony, she tries to climb down, and falls.

How is this anything like murder when he figures a way to get her sober rather than have her cause him unknowable grief with the police?
And why would a jury be entitled to determine it?

Last edited by Samson; 10th October 2016 at 05:24 PM.
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Old 10th October 2016, 07:02 PM   #2
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Well, he did hold her against her will. And he locked her on the balcony. Sounds like kidnapping to me.
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Old 10th October 2016, 07:10 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Metullus View Post
Well, he did hold her against her will. And he locked her on the balcony. Sounds like kidnapping to me.
I am trying to see it in the context of woman accuses man of theft and other things to police, versus a pragmatic decision to give her "safe" time out. Men are vulnerable when women cause trouble and vice versa. Keeping the police at bay is a good option. This is clearly not murder so why are the police pulling this stunt? It is something quite different, and we can all form an opinion as the case unfolds, but with the recording we have an excellent resource for plying our wisdom.
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Old 10th October 2016, 07:15 PM   #4
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Seems like exactly the sort of thing that you'd want a jury to decide.
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Old 10th October 2016, 07:19 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Seems like exactly the sort of thing that you'd want a jury to decide.
This.
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Old 10th October 2016, 07:27 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Seems like exactly the sort of thing that you'd want a jury to decide.
What would you decide on the available evidence?
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Old 10th October 2016, 07:29 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
I am trying to see it in the context of woman accuses man of theft and other things to police, versus a pragmatic decision to give her "safe" time out.
What gives any man the right to put an adult woman in "time out"? Would it make any difference to you if he locked her in a closet "for her own good" rather than on a balcony?
Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Men are vulnerable when women cause trouble and vice versa. Keeping the police at bay is a good option.
IMHO, holding a woman against her will is not likely to be considered a good option.
Originally Posted by Samson View Post
This is clearly not murder so why are the police pulling this stunt? It is something quite different, and we can all form an opinion as the case unfolds, but with the recording we have an excellent resource for plying our wisdom.
Would she have attempted to escape from the locked balcony if she was not, in fact, locked on the balcony against her will? Would she have fallen to her death if he had not locked her on the balcony against her will? Is it unreasonable or even unforeseeable for a person, who is being held against their will, to attempt to escape?

I do not know if it rises to 1st degree murder, but it does not seem unreasonable to me to hold him responsible.
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Old 10th October 2016, 07:43 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Metullus View Post
What gives any man the right to put an adult woman in "time out"? Would it make any difference to you if he locked her in a closet "for her own good" rather than on a balcony?IMHO, holding a woman against her will is not likely to be considered a good option. Would she have attempted to escape from the locked balcony if she was not, in fact, locked on the balcony against her will? Would she have fallen to her death if he had not locked her on the balcony against her will? Is it unreasonable or even unforeseeable for a person, who is being held against their will, to attempt to escape?

I do not know if it rises to 1st degree murder, but it does not seem unreasonable to me to hold him responsible.
Clearly, with drunk and violent people of either gender a chaotic outcome is likely. For men, the challenge is to be sure they would not lock a woman outside to sober up as an option before leaping to conclusions. This woman was violent and drunk remember, and falling or leaping from balconies is an incredibly rare event. It is meant to be difficult.

Last edited by Samson; 10th October 2016 at 07:44 PM.
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Old 10th October 2016, 07:44 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
At last details emerge

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/ar...ectid=11726687

An explosive audio recording played in court that captured Warriena Wright's final hours in Gable Tostee's Gold Coast apartment has revealed the New Zealander was drunk, at times incomprehensible and repeatedly violent towards the man charged with her murder.

"I've met some weird people on Tinder," the 30-year-old murder accused is heard to say, as the drunk Wright apparently swings in and out of violent episodes towards him.

And

At one point, she accuses him of stealing her phone.

"Where's my ******* ****? My ******* data," she says.

Asked what it looks like, she yells, "it looks like a ******* iPhone".

Wright insists on leaving, but Tostee tries to stop her.

"I didn't say you have to leave, I just said stop beating me up," he said.

She asks him again where her things are.

"I will ******* destroy your jaw. It's not ******* funny," she says.

"Look, that's your stuff right there," he replies.

"Get it for me. Get it for me. Get it for me," she yells.

"I'm calling the police, get it for me. Get it for me now.


Then he locks her on the balcony, she tries to climb down, and falls.

How is this anything like murder when he figures a way to get her sober rather than have her cause him unknowable grief with the police?
And why would a jury be entitled to determine it?
Locking her up so she can't leave? In part so she doesn't report him to the police? It sure sounds like kidnapping to me. And locking a crazy drunk on a balcony? How stupid and dangerous; she could tumble off or get it in her head to climb down: which she did, right?

A jury certainly should hear the details and decide.
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Old 10th October 2016, 08:10 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Locking her up so she can't leave? In part so she doesn't report him to the police? It sure sounds like kidnapping to me. And locking a crazy drunk on a balcony? How stupid and dangerous; she could tumble off or get it in her head to climb down: which she did, right?

A jury certainly should hear the details and decide.
Maybe. My concern would be overstating the likelihood she would try to climb down. I see that as extremely unlikely, and a terrible outcome for both.

ETA no mention of a jury, must be judge only.

Last edited by Samson; 10th October 2016 at 08:23 PM.
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Old 10th October 2016, 08:58 PM   #11
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He just should have let her go. There was no reason for him to lock her out on the balcony as opposed to the front door. Unlawful detention vs a complaint to police that gets dismissed as soon as he shows them his recording. Based solely on this single piece of evidence, I think he will be found not guilty of murder, but hopefully he has also been charged also with unlawful detention or depridation of liberty.

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Old 10th October 2016, 09:10 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Maybe. My concern would be overstating the likelihood she would try to climb down. I see that as extremely unlikely, and a terrible outcome for both.
ETA no mention of a jury, must be judge only.
This headline suggests a jury.

Gable Tostee murder trial: Jury hears last chilling moments of Warriena Wright’s life

http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/nati...7bdfca468a6308


Quote:
“Hello Dad, I might have a bit of a situation,” he says.

After explaining what happened, he goes on, “She kept beating me up and whatever and, um, I locked her out on the balcony and I think she might have jumped off.

“There’s a million cops around my building, I’m f***ed.

“I don’t know what to do.

“I didn’t cause this, I didn’t push her or anything.

“I’m just walking around the area and there’s a million cops around the area.”
This one too.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-10-1...-heard/7921418

Last edited by Shiner; 10th October 2016 at 09:12 PM.
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Old 10th October 2016, 09:52 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Maybe. My concern would be overstating the likelihood she would try to climb down. I see that as extremely unlikely, and a terrible outcome for both.

ETA no mention of a jury, must be judge only.
I see it as fairly likely for a very drunk person- they do all sorts of dangerous, not well thought out actions. Enogh to sustain video tv shows and YouTube. Most people, I think, would consider a balcony as very risky in this light. Equivalent to locking a little kid unsupervised in the same place.

Sorry but I have no sympathy for the accused. He locked her to prevent her from leaving and filing a place report against him. She died trying to escape what was very much a kidnapping. He is in big trouble, and I think he should be if the reports are correct.
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Old 10th October 2016, 10:49 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
What would you decide on the available evidence?
...calm down dude. The trial has just started. The "available evidence" consists of a couple of news reports and a few transcripts from three hours of recording. No need to decide "guilt" or "innocence" right now.

Although this:

Quote:
"No, no, no, no, no. I want to go home. Just let me go home," she is heard saying on the audio.

"I would, but you've been a bad girl," he replies.

...

"You're not going to collect any belongings. I'll slam the door on you. You're not going to pull anything or I'll knock you the ******* out."

A muffled scuffle ensues between the pair, in which Wright repeatedly cries, "no, no, no no" and "I want to go home. Just let me go home."

The noise is silenced by the sound of a sliding door, which fits with the Crown's contention that Tostee locked her on his 14th floor balcony.
Doesn't look good for him at all.
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Old 10th October 2016, 11:27 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by banquetbear View Post
...calm down dude. The trial has just started. The "available evidence" consists of a couple of news reports and a few transcripts from three hours of recording. No need to decide "guilt" or "innocence" right now.

Although this:



Doesn't look good for him at all.
A charge of murder never looks good.
It reminds me of Oscar Pistorius. Drink replaces paranoia and society can hate forever. If he held her against her will that is kidnapping, and the charge should be solely that, not murder.

Let's see if this is a first criminal offence, it will all come out no doubt. Unfortunately she looks like TROUBLE. That should also become apparent either way.
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Old 10th October 2016, 11:47 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
A charge of murder never looks good.
...of course not. I must add that too my "to do list": don't murder anyone today.

Quote:
It reminds me of Oscar Pistorius. Drink replaces paranoia and society can hate forever.
This isn't like Oscar Pistorius at all. Based on what we know: are you blaming Wright for Tostee's decision to lock her on the balcony instead of getting her to leave?

Quote:
If he held her against her will that is kidnapping, and the charge should be solely that, not murder.
And you are an expert on the Australian criminal code now? How about you wait a few days until we hear the rest of the evidence?

Quote:
Let's see if this is a first criminal offence, it will all come out no doubt.
Not relevant at all.


Quote:
Unfortunately she looks like TROUBLE.
Unfortunately she is also dead. So trouble or not, that is of no consequence.
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Old 10th October 2016, 11:52 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post

Let's see if this is a first criminal offence.........
His previous record is well documented. As is his Christian name, which you have spelled incorrectly in the thread title.

Tostee served approx 6 months last year for a drunken high speed police chase, just 3 weeks before the balcony incident.

This article is about his release.

http://www.wsfm.com.au/newsroom/accu...ed-from-prison

Quote:
The chase happened just three weeks before Warriena Tagpuno Wright fell to her death from the 14th floor of his apartment.

He pleaded guilty to speeding and being involved in a police pursuit that reached speeds of almost 200km/h and ended with sparks flying from Tostee's tyre rims when police threw spikes onto the road in a bid to stop him.

Tostee has requested his parole application to be transferred from NSW to Queensland but it is yet to be approved.
He also has counterfeiting charges from 2004. I believe he was still in high school. The only link I can find to a news source (Daily Telegraph) is dead.

It's only 2 years old. I assume it's inadmissible and suppressed.

Audio recordings at below link. Also a twitter feed from court reporters today.

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/n...0ec0a2ac614e44

ETA. I see his name spelled both ways in news articles. I take back my comment for now. The defendant changed his name by deed poll last year to Eric Thomas. So there's 3.

Last edited by Shiner; 11th October 2016 at 12:05 AM.
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Old 11th October 2016, 12:03 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
A charge of murder never looks good.
It reminds me of Oscar Pistorius. Drink replaces paranoia and society can hate forever. If he held her against her will that is kidnapping, and the charge should be solely that, not murder.

Let's see if this is a first criminal offence, it will all come out no doubt. Unfortunately she looks like TROUBLE. That should also become apparent either way.

Do they have the equivalent of Felony Murder statutes in that jurisdiction.

Because if someone dies in the course of a kidnapping here (a felony which qualifies for felony murder consideration in most states, I think), then murder could very easily be on the table.

It doesn't even have to be the victim, or a bystander. It can even be one of the perps (if there's more than one).
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Old 11th October 2016, 12:10 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Shiner View Post
His previous record is well documented. As is his Christian name, which you have spelled incorrectly in the thread title.

Tostee served approx 6 months last year for a drunken high speed police chase, just 3 weeks before the balcony incident.

This article is about his release.

http://www.wsfm.com.au/newsroom/accu...ed-from-prison



He also has counterfeiting charges from 2004. I believe he was still in high school. The only link I can find to a news source (Daily Telegraph) is dead.

It's only 2 years old. I assume it's inadmissible and suppressed.

Audio recordings at below link. Also a twitter feed from court reporters today.

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/n...0ec0a2ac614e44

ETA. I see his name spelled both ways in news articles. I take back my comment for now. The defendant changed his name by deed poll last year to Eric Thomas. So there's 3.
The audio sounds grim, but at least it is evidence that isn't contaminated with conjecture.
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Old 11th October 2016, 12:27 AM   #20
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Shiner - you're obviously keeping up with this case: is Tostee charged with alternate crimes, eg manslaughter &/or kidnapping, or have the cops just gone for broke hoping the murder sticks?
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Old 11th October 2016, 12:34 AM   #21
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He's a *********** murderer and going down. Samson wrong yet again.
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Old 11th October 2016, 12:41 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Do they have the equivalent of Felony Murder statutes in that jurisdiction.
It comes under the general definition of murder, kidnapping is an unlawful purpose and the question is whether a judge/jury considers locking a drunk person out on a balcony reasonably likely to endanger their life.

They could have easily charged him with manslaughter or reckless conduct endangering life, so I imagine they have more evidence up their sleeves.
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Old 11th October 2016, 12:46 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Hard Cheese View Post
It comes under the general definition of murder, kidnapping is an unlawful purpose and the question is whether a judge/jury considers locking a drunk person out on a balcony reasonably likely to endanger their life.

They could have easily charged him with manslaughter or reckless conduct endangering life, so I imagine they have more evidence up their sleeves.
Hard to imagine what further evidence. It's a bit of a goldmine with that 3 hour tape. The question must be whether he is alleged to be holding her for more sex, unlikely, or to avoid trouble with the police he expected her to cause.
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Old 11th October 2016, 12:48 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
He's a *********** murderer and going down. Samson wrong yet again.
It's a bit early for that, lionking, if they miss with murder is it ok for him to walk free?
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Old 11th October 2016, 12:49 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by banquetbear View Post
...of course not. I must add that too my "to do list": don't murder anyone today.



This isn't like Oscar Pistorius at all. Based on what we know: are you blaming Wright for Tostee's decision to lock her on the balcony instead of getting her to leave?



And you are an expert on the Australian criminal code now? How about you wait a few days until we hear the rest of the evidence?



Not relevant at all.




Unfortunately she is also dead. So trouble or not, that is of no consequence.
Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Do they have the equivalent of Felony Murder statutes in that jurisdiction.

Because if someone dies in the course of a kidnapping here (a felony which qualifies for felony murder consideration in most states, I think), then murder could very easily be on the table.

It doesn't even have to be the victim, or a bystander. It can even be one of the perps (if there's more than one).
No we don't have the equivalent of felony murder in Australia. Murder or manslaughter. The audio points to pre-meditated murder here.
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Old 11th October 2016, 12:51 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Hard to imagine what further evidence. It's a bit of a goldmine with that 3 hour tape. The question must be whether he is alleged to be holding her for more sex, unlikely, or to avoid trouble with the police he expected her to cause.
Your ability to give the benefit of the doubt to violent angry males, like Pistorius, is staggering. And completely wrong.
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Old 11th October 2016, 01:00 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Your ability to give the benefit of the doubt to violent angry makes, like Pistorius, is staggering. And completely wrong.
There are parallels between many cases. Here I would contend neither Pistorius nor Tostee started the day expecting to face murder charges and in both cases there are sound reasons that actions they took were not calculated to result in the deaths of the women they spent the night with.
Simply calling them both murderers lacks a little finesse.
But that's enough from me on Pistorius.
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Old 11th October 2016, 01:11 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Shiner - you're obviously keeping up with this case: is Tostee charged with alternate crimes, eg manslaughter &/or kidnapping, or have the cops just gone for broke hoping the murder sticks?
My understanding is that he's only been charged with murder.

The prosecutors and defense agreed to go sraight to trial last October when he was first charged over the night in question.

Quote:
A committal hearing was due to be held at the Southport Magistrates Court on Thursday, however court staff confirmed Mr Tostee's lawyers and prosecutors agreed to a registry committal.

It means both parties have consented to the murder case going straight to the Supreme Court without further evidence being aired in the Magistrates Court. A date for the trial has not been set.
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/quee...14-gk8yo6.html

I'm not sure if there are options for a reduction in severity of charge to be pled.
I've followed the story since it happened, and really can't see murder being proven. There doesn't seem to be much in the way of intent.

I won't be unhappy to be wrong though. He is a douche. As shown by his active social media prescence before, and after the death of Ms Wright.
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Old 11th October 2016, 01:13 AM   #29
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Old 11th October 2016, 01:14 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Hard Cheese View Post
It comes under the general definition of murder, kidnapping is an unlawful purpose and the question is whether a judge/jury considers locking a drunk person out on a balcony reasonably likely to endanger their life.

They could have easily charged him with manslaughter or reckless conduct endangering life, so I imagine they have more evidence up their sleeves.

See, that's the thing about felony murder; "a legal doctrine in some common law jurisdictions that broadens the crime of murder: when an offender kills (regardless of intent to kill) in the commission of a dangerous or enumerated crime (called a felony in some jurisdictions), he/she is guilty of murder."

It isn't always necessary to have been the offender who kills. It might also be anyone else who was a participant in the crime. Or none of them. I've read of at least one case where a cop shot and killed one of the participants in an armed robbery as they were trying to get away, and the other was charged with felony murder.

================================

Apparently in Australia it is called "constructive murder, and seems very similar;
Quote:
The prosecution must prove beyond reasonable doubt: (1) a base offence with 25 years’ imprisonment or more; and that (2) the act causing death occurred in attempt, during, or immediately after this base offence. This means that the prosecution must prove both the actus reus and mens rea of this base offence. Munro[18] confirmed that the mens rea of the act causing death is not required to prove constructive murder. For example, the accused may commit an act causing death in the course of robbery or armed robbery without any intention to kill, to inflict grievous bodily harm, or with reckless indifference to human life.
So it appears possible that if Tostee is being charged with a crime which could get him 25 years (kidnapping?) then a constructive murder charge might possibly go with it.
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Old 11th October 2016, 01:15 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
What would you decide on the available evidence?
Based only on what you quoted and described I would decide wrongful death or involuntary homicide ETA felony murder sound right. The man was sober and should not have imprisonned somebody drunk in a situation where the person could easily and did imperil themselves.

The correct way to handle the situation would have been , leave the person, call the police outside, let the police handle everything.

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Old 11th October 2016, 01:15 AM   #32
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He had the intent to force her out on to the balcony in an aggressive, violent way, at the very least. And I will contend he caused her to fear for her life. She attempted to escape that threat. That's enough. Murder.
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Old 11th October 2016, 01:18 AM   #33
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Samson just out of curiosity what do you do in life ? This is the third or fourth thread I see you defending people's action when they are accused.
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Old 11th October 2016, 01:18 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
================================

Apparently in Australia it is called "constructive murder, and seems very similar;


So it appears possible that if Tostee is being charged with a crime which could get him 25 years (kidnapping?) then a constructive murder charge might possibly go with it.
My understanding is that constructive murder was only available in Victoria (and is not now) but not in Queensland, where the offence occurred.
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Old 11th October 2016, 01:21 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
See, that's the thing about felony murder; "a legal doctrine in some common law jurisdictions that broadens the crime of murder: when an offender kills (regardless of intent to kill) in the commission of a dangerous or enumerated crime (called a felony in some jurisdictions), he/she is guilty of murder."

It isn't always necessary to have been the offender who kills. It might also be anyone else who was a participant in the crime. Or none of them. I've read of at least one case where a cop shot and killed one of the participants in an armed robbery as they were trying to get away, and the other was charged with felony murder.

================================

Apparently in Australia it is called "constructive murder, and seems very similar;


So it appears possible that if Tostee is being charged with a crime which could get him 25 years (kidnapping?) then a constructive murder charge might possibly go with it.
Excellent. That should cover it. I'm not aware of a kidnapping charge though.

I guess we can suppose the prosecutors have this in mind. He did essentially kidnap her, and in the process she died.

Last edited by Shiner; 11th October 2016 at 01:23 AM.
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Old 11th October 2016, 01:23 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
My understanding is that constructive murder was only available in Victoria (and is not now) but not in Queensland, where the offence occurred.

Okay.

I didn't really take the time to dig down to that level of detail.

There's apparently forty six states in the U.S. with felony murder statutes of some sort, but even with that they are not all the same.

What I was trying to determine was if a similar concept was current in Australia. It seems that it is, dependent on jurisdiction.
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Old 11th October 2016, 01:26 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
My understanding is that constructive murder was only available in Victoria (and is not now) but not in Queensland, where the offence occurred.
And that would null and void my suppositions .....

I think this is the relevant link. I think it's covered under section 1(b)
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/q...9994/s302.html

Last edited by Shiner; 11th October 2016 at 01:30 AM.
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Old 11th October 2016, 01:29 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post

What I was trying to determine was if a similar concept was current in Australia. It seems that it is, dependent on jurisdiction.
From what I've read it is not available in any Australian jurisdiction now.
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Old 11th October 2016, 01:31 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Shiner View Post
And that would null and void my suppositions .....

I think this is the relevant link. I think it's covered under section 1(b)
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/q...9994/s302.html
1 (b) seems to cover the case here.
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Old 11th October 2016, 01:39 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
Samson just out of curiosity what do you do in life ? This is the third or fourth thread I see you defending people's action when they are accused.
I run a business like most New Zealanders one way or other. I got interested when I realised there is endemic corruption in the NZ police, the way they prosecute murders and get the wrong answer. Thomas, Tamihere, Pora, Bain, Lundy, MacDonald. Maybe Watson, all in a country of a few million.
Total compensation to that lot, 3 million, total jail wrongly served, 82 years and counting.
Of course it doesn't really matter, a kind of reverse lotto win.
It seems to matter to them and their families though.

This guy Tostee is accused of murder which is absurd. It looks like a prize cockup to me. There must be a range of charges they could throw the book at him for, instead he has to walk.
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