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#401 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 14,074
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#402 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,508
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Thermal, yes, we've been "through all this" and YOU were shown to be incorrect in your reading of the statute.
29.593 refers to "certificate of accomplishment to obtain hunting approval." --- while there has been no documentation produced to indicate Kyle Rittenhouse was certified, my best guess is he was. And if he had that approval, he was in compliance with the statute/regs. |
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#403 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 6,662
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That seems to be a poor guess.
The state has charged him with a violation of that law. It's not particularly in their interest to make a charge that can be dismissed with the simple showing of a certificate. Plenty of time elapsed between the killings and charging for an investigation or Rittenhouse's legal representation to go over any documentation which might effect that charge. The fact that the charge was made and their has been no news of the charge being dismissed is a very good reason to think that any simple and readily available evidence that would negate that charge does not exist. |
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#404 |
Philosopher
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#405 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 6,662
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The validity of murder charges is down to mens rea and how his self defense claim stacks up. Those are questions with some amount of subjectivity to them. So while you or I might have strong ideas, only a court and jury can really determine the issue.
Whether he has a specific piece of paper that makes it legal for him to carry a weapon is a simple, objective question, easily resolved with no particular room for differences of interpretation. |
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The weakness of all Utopias is this, ... They first assume that no man will want more than his share, and then are very ingenious in explaining whether his share will be delivered by motorcar or balloon. -G.K. CHESTERTON |
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#406 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 14,074
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Not so fast. A hunting license grants permission to hunt. That means complying with hunting regulations. Which, I hope I don't have to explain at length, do not allow hunting or discharging a firearm within city limits. So Ky-Ky would not be covered by the hunting license exemption, even if he had one, which he has not even been shown to have.
I'll give you the opportunity to cite the hunting laws within city limits in downtown Kenosha. |
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We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain |
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#407 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 12,331
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Why would you guess that? He doesn't even live in Wisconsin. And he was clearly not hunting. I don't think your position is as solid as you think.
Quelle suprise, there are contradictory statements in a statute! Where I live people charged with first-degree murder usually don't get bail. But Kyle is probably not a danger to others as long as he doesn't try to play street vigilante. ETA: If you decide to defend property with lethal force, uninvited, you are asking for trouble IMO. Whatever happens legally, I hope he understands that he made a bad decision. Reality is not a ******* video game. |
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#408 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,508
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Nowhere does that Statute mention "Hunting License" -- only that a person has been approved/accomplished after taking a course in safety, etc. (Hunter education certification)
At his probable cause hearing, this charge of 'minor in possession' was supported by the prosecutor, Assistant District Attorney Thomas Binger. "We don't allow teens to run around with guns. It's that simple." he said. And just in case anyone was interested, Kyle turns 18 on Sunday. |
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#409 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 17,208
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#410 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 14,074
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Your entire weak tea argument hinges on this certification, and exactly what it certifies, that (surprise, surprise) you are not citing here for review.
Your wishful thinking means squat. Prove first that he had this certification as an out-of-state hunter. Then present the agreements and requirements to hold and maintain the certificate. What do you want to bet that in order to hold this certificate, you have to agree to abide by hunting laws, including remaining outside city limits? In fact, how about an avatar bet that the underage charge sticks, and your cockamamie exemption theory doesn't even exist? |
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We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain |
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#411 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,508
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Yeah, I know.
I was a witness at a trial of a drunk driver who killed someone. The charges went all the way from homicide to "failure to yield to a traffic control device" -- and he pled guilty to the entire laundry list. After all is said and done in this criminal trial, no matter the outcome, it's inevitable that the families of Mr. Huber and Mr. Rosenbaum will seek redress in civil court. |
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#412 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 12,331
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This is old and I've never heard of the Minnesota Reformer:
Mike Lindell says he didn’t mean for his $50,000 donation to help bail out Kenosha killer Kyle Rittenhouse By Deena Winter - November 23, 2020 |
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#413 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 14,074
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__________________
We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain |
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#414 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 12,331
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He was out there for target shooting, under the supervision of adults. He did pretty well.
Where are you getting that it's not OK to fire a rifle in the Kenosha city limits? I don't doubt it, I just wonder if he committed that crime. Wouldn't self-defense be a mitigating factor? |
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#415 |
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#416 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 14,074
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I used to hunt, and it's a pretty universal thing, that you can't hunt in, um, cities. In my state, there are further restrictions regarding how close you can be to houses, etc.
Quote:
We had a shooting in NJ recently where discharging a gun within 1000 feet of a school was the charge that sent the guy down. NJ is a tough gun law State tho |
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We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain |
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#417 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
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__________________
We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain |
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#418 |
Philosopher
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#419 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 8,540
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There's some argument that the statute is poorly written enough that it creates what appears to be an unintentional loophole.
Despite how webfusion presents it, this is very much an untested legal theory. I suppose we'll all find out once Rittenhouse goes to trial. I personally don't find it all that convincing, but I'm not a lawyer. Rittenhouse's lawyers simply have to have an answer for this charge, as it stands to severely undermine his entire self-defense claim otherwise. Screeds about "2nd Amendment rights" are, of course, totally worthless. Prisons are full of people convicted of possessing guns unlawfully. Prohibitions on the carrying of firearms in public, especially by children, are nowhere near the grey zone of contemporary 2A legal issues. Not even in the wet dreams of NRA life members are local ordinances prohibiting the carrying of rifles openly in the streets considered constitutional violations. |
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#420 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
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It is only written poorly if the hunting certification makes no mention of validity only when in compliance with other applicable laws, including barring of hunting activities in city limits. My hunting permits in Jersey sure did. You acknowledged felonies for violating its terms by your signature.
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Eta: your edit: largely agreed. This was no 2A rally or protest. It was an expression of rage. Which, although still criminal, I support. Criminality is IMO a legitimate response to police murdering citizens. |
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We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain |
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#421 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 8,540
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I agree. I think it reads pretty plainly that permissions to carry weapons come strictly tied to the hunting license requirements.
If this were something that had any legal legs, you might expect them to prefer a bench trial over a jury trial. A judge might be more likely to accept a legal technicality like this rather than a jury who's lay reading of the law and common sense leads them to the plain intentions of the statute. I don't think Rittenhouse had a hunting cert at all, so he likely never signed anything. That's how absurd this legal hail-mary is. Edit: As far as I can tell, this is all speculative too. I don't see any sources to suggest that Kyle's defense is even going to try this route. Some lawyer guy wrote an op-ed suggesting this, but I'm not seeing much else other than it getting repeated around the web. |
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#422 |
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#423 |
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#424 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
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If an unlicensed or disqualified driver involved in a crash - no matter whose actual fault the crash was, the unlicensed/disqualified driver is liable because he was not even legally allowed to drive... if he had followed the law, the crash would not have happened.
This scenarios is similar - if Rittenhouse was carrying a gun illegally, then using his illegally carried gun for a "self-defence" claim is not going to fly, since he his actions in even having the gun were illegal in the first place... if he had followed the law, the shootings would not have happened. |
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#425 |
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,508
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Same thing about the curfew violation charge that was just tacked-on, apparently because
the Kenosha prosecutor is trying to basically say "His very presence was criminal. All subsequent acts arising from that basic premise nullify a self-defense claim..." and around and around we go... |
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#426 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 14,074
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Ky-Ky didn't even live there. He drove to the neighboring State to illegally insert himself into a riot with an illegally carried weapon, evidently provided by a felonious accomplice. This is not an innocent victim. He got on his knees and ******* begged for this. Or is just too wrapped up in his Avengers fantasy to see that vigalantism is a crime, like it or not. |
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We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain |
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#427 |
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#428 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,508
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Nor did Mr. Ziminski live there -- he is a resident of Racine/Caledonia --- he brought his own firearm and glommed onto Joseph Rosenbaum during the festivities of that fateful evening. Ziminski and Rosenbaum cooked up a plan to isolate Kyle, and steal his weapon. It almost worked. Almost, because they didn't take into consideration that Kyle would actually pull the trigger when under attack from the two of them.
Nor was Mr. Grosskreutz a Kenosha resident -- (this paramedic-with-a-gun traveled from the Milwaukee area/West Allis, farther away from Kenosha than is Antioch, Illinois). You wanna know why some people admire Kyle Rittenhouse? Because he protected himself, and survived multiple deadly felonious attackers. |
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#429 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 14,074
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Hot Damn. We gots us a psychic in da house. Tell us more about this conspiracy you overhead.
Quote:
The rioters were criminally engaging in social protest. Burning stuff and whatnot. They didn't wave an illegally carried rifle till the inevitable conflict went down. Kyle begged for this to happen.
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Because he waltzed, illegally armed, into a riot till he had the opportunity to kill, which he took. Twice. Don't carry guns into violent places that you have no ******* business even being in unless your intent is to kill. Defending your home is one thing. A ******* field trip to get some bloody target practice is quite another. |
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We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain |
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#430 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,508
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Yes, he shot THREE people who were all engaged at the time with trying to end his life.
JoJo Rosenbaum, who was hooked-up with the gun-carrying career criminal Joshua Ziminsky (aka Alex Blaine), as the two of them (IMO) hatched a plan to steal the AR15 -- an expensive gun, that Ziminski knew would be worth a lot of money in his biker-gang circle of thugs/friends. This is Rosenbaum's buddy -- a real paragon of society. ![]() Mr. Huber was not very well-trained in the deployment of a skateboard as a deadly weapon to smash someone's skull (use the heavy trucks, not the board), and he found out the hard way what happens when you try to 'cranium' an armed man and fail. As for Mr. Grosskreutz, that freakshow got exactly what he deserved for his actions. Disgusting guy, who KNEW that Kyle was headed to the cops, and yet, his only regret was in not blowing Kyle's brains all over the avenue. Kyle Rittenhouse had NO INTENT to 'gun down' anyone. He fired at point-blank range against violent attackers who displayed a clear and present danger. |
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#431 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,508
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More Incitement from the Peanut Gallery
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#432 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,008
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This is the crux in my opinion. He shouldn't have even been there. Everything that happened afterwards is on him. He willingly went out of his way to seek this out. Committing crime on his way by the looks of it.
So we have a criminal, who willingly went looking for violence. Then shot some people. Fun day out for all, bring the family, see the sights. |
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#433 |
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#434 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 17,208
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This.
Rittenhouse is probably lucky that Wisconsin doesn't have the death penalty for first degree murder*. I would be quite happy to see this little gun-toting scumbag spend the bulk of his remaining life behind bars where he no longer presents a danger to the public. *ETA: It seems Wisconsin does have the death penalty for "Felony Murder". Is that what Rittenhouse has been charged with? |
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#435 |
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#436 |
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,508
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Everything I posted is accurate.
This case revolves around two particularly sociopathic fellows -- Alex Blaine and JoJo Rosenbaum, and their connection that night. Can't ask JoJo what was HIS motivation in attacking Kyle Rittenhouse. So, that leaves Alex Blaine (Ziminski), and since he will be appearing in court in Kenosha on 'disorderly conduct' charges, maybe someone will actually ask him why he was providing 'covering fire' for JoJo. Or, ask the pink-haired Ashley Krueger (aka Kelly Ziminski). This is the CASE STUDY in self-defense. |
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#437 |
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#438 |
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#439 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,508
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Being shot with a gun can be different than "being gunned down" -- the phrase has a Dictionary definition, and also a common usage.
If you want to be right, then you can be, I am OK with your strange evaluation of "gunned down" in this scene. However, in context, Kyle Rittenhouse didn't go after JoJo and plan to kill him in the street. (what I think of when hearing gunned down). The opposite, actually -- JoJo went after Kyle and tried to take away the expensive rifle (with Ziminski following the action, and interceding on JoJo's behalf in the robbery) and the shots fired by Kyle were because he feared for his own life. Period. |
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#440 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Leicester Square, London
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The dictionary definition and the common usage are the same: gun down = shoot someone with a gun.
Get over it. |
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