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Tags Kyle Rittenhouse , murder cases

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Old 9th February 2021, 11:55 AM   #561
SuburbanTurkey
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
His group in Kenosha that night prevented the OTHERS there (who REALLY had no business doing what they were doing) from violating the peace and security of the people of Kenosha.

Law Enforcement had abandoned that task.
The presence of armed civilians was beneficial to the "public defense" of Americans in Wisconsin.

That point is, of course, a debatable one, in the context of overall 2A Rights.
This trial may or may not go into that aspect.
However, he WAS there, and threatened nobody with the gun. At no point did he raise it, or aim it, with the intent to fire at any of the rioters.

Quite the opposite. When he realized that JoJo was intent on stealing his gun (with the assistance of an armed individual named 'Alex Blaine') the isolated Rittenhouse tried to remove himself from any close contact with Rosenbaum. In other words, the physical threat of severe bodily injury was being perpetrated against Kyle, not the other way around.

If my loaded high-powered rifle slung around my neck is snatched by a violent maniac, he's gonna get a bullet or two or three. Period.
Under ANY circumstances, NOBODY is taking away the weapon from my grip. Not gonna happen.
I very much hope that Kyle explains himself exactly in this way, that he, a child, traveled to a riot to self-deputize himself to patrol the streets with a rifle.

Then again, I hope that Kyle spends the rest of his life in prison, so perhaps that's not the best defense.

Kyle almost certainly going to be convicted of some of his charges. Whether or not he gets the grand prize of multiple murders, or just slides away with the various smaller charges remains to be seen.

If I were giving Kyle advice, I'd encourage him to follow his bail requirements to the letter and enjoy what may very well be the last free days of his life.
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Old 9th February 2021, 12:01 PM   #562
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"You can't claim self-defense if you initiate an interaction. Got me? You can't push someone, then when they punch you, shoot them in the face." -- smartcooky

When did all that happen? Is it on video occurring just like that? I urge you to find a video or witness saying what you claim.

From all the footage released so far, it was the OPPOSITE regarding JoJo -- He was puffing his chest and intimidating the men with rifles.
(and Blaine right alongside, brandishing his own handgun and smiling like a Chesire Cat, hoping for some chance to shoot someone).
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Old 9th February 2021, 12:09 PM   #563
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
"You can't claim self-defense if you initiate an interaction. Got me? You can't push someone, then when they punch you, shoot them in the face." -- smartcooky

When did all that happen? Is it on video occurring just like that? I urge you to find a video or witness saying what you claim.

From all the footage released so far, it was the OPPOSITE regarding JoJo -- He was puffing his chest and intimidating the men with rifles.
(and Blaine right alongside, brandishing his own handgun and smiling like a Chesire Cat, hoping for some chance to shoot someone).
A lot of us are seeing Rittenhouse strolling around with a rifle as an open provocation. He had no law enforcement powers, and was on the streets entirely illegally. An armed criminal has no self defense claim.

Seriously, we're just repeating now. Why keep handwaving and resetting?

He had no business carrying a rifle in a riot in another State. He had no law enforcement powers. He was an armed criminal, not a home defender.
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Old 9th February 2021, 12:09 PM   #564
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
"You can't claim self-defense if you initiate an interaction. Got me? You can't push someone, then when they punch you, shoot them in the face." -- smartcooky
No, I'm plague311.

Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
When did all that happen? Is it on video occurring just like that? I urge you to find a video or witness saying what you claim.
No, I never said it happened like that. I was using a scenario to explain how it works. What happened, from what I can find, is that Kyle encountered someone walking on property that did not belong to Kyle, nor was Kyle requested to be on that property. He then initiated the confrontation by asking what the individual was doing there. Mind you, and here's the kicker, Kyle was actively breaking the law at that time. He was out after curfew, with a gun he shouldn't have, confronting someone. He had no legal basis for being there.

Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
From all the footage released so far, it was the OPPOSITE regarding JoJo -- He was puffing his chest and intimidating the men with rifles.
(and Blaine right alongside, brandishing his own handgun and smiling like a Chesire Cat, hoping for some chance to shoot someone).
Ok, link me to said footage that shows the opposite, but again, it's not going to make any difference.

Kyle was somewhere he didn't belong (after curfew), with a weapon he shouldn't have had (he wasn't hunting and couldn't legally possess the weapon in WI), and he had no right to "protect" property that wasn't his in the first place.

I'm sorry you're irritated by this, but you're wrong.
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Old 9th February 2021, 12:09 PM   #565
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
"You can't claim self-defense if you initiate an interaction. Got me? You can't push someone, then when they punch you, shoot them in the face." -- smartcooky

When did all that happen? Is it on video occurring just like that? I urge you to find a video or witness saying what you claim.

From all the footage released so far, it was the OPPOSITE regarding JoJo -- He was puffing his chest and intimidating the men with rifles.
(and Blaine right alongside, brandishing his own handgun and smiling like a Chesire Cat, hoping for some chance to shoot someone).
It's entirely possible that everyone involved was engaged in criminal behavior that greatly undermines any legitimate self defense claim.

Illegally carrying a gun in violation of a riot curfew seems like an extremely poor standpoint to make a lawful self-defense claim.
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Old 9th February 2021, 12:19 PM   #566
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If one is carrying an AR and is intimidated by someone puffing up their chest, then by all means, open fire.
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Old 9th February 2021, 12:27 PM   #567
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Originally Posted by TJM View Post
If one is carrying an AR and is intimidated by someone puffing up their chest, then by all means, open fire.
Serious, man. You criminally walk right into the middle of an open hell-raising with a rifle, and are pants-pissing scared when someone gets in your face and challenges you? What kind of sheltered life did Ky-Ky lead that he thought that **** was gonna fly?
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Old 9th February 2021, 12:28 PM   #568
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
What kind of sheltered life did Ky-Ky lead that he thought that **** was gonna fly?
A privileged white one in the US Midwest?
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Old 9th February 2021, 12:34 PM   #569
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Serious, man. You criminally walk right into the middle of an open hell-raising with a rifle, and are pants-pissing scared when someone gets in your face and challenges you? What kind of sheltered life did Ky-Ky lead that he thought that **** was gonna fly?
Well he thought he was a cop so that does all fit with normal behavior
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Old 9th February 2021, 12:49 PM   #570
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Serious, man. You criminally walk right into the middle of an open hell-raising with a rifle, and are pants-pissing scared when someone gets in your face and challenges you? What kind of sheltered life did Ky-Ky lead that he thought that **** was gonna fly?
It's pretty telling that, of the many militia morons that jumped on the opportunity to play out their fantasy as Street Defender, only Kyle got into a fatal altercation.

Even among the idiots LARPing as cops, he was the standout.
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Old 9th February 2021, 05:27 PM   #571
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
It's pretty telling that, of the many militia morons that jumped on the opportunity to play out their fantasy as Street Defender, only Kyle got into a fatal altercation...
Apprently, only Kyle had to deal with both the armed and dangerous 1%er gang member Alex Blaine AND the suicidally violent Joseph Rosenbaum, who hatched a plan to go after Kyle and take/steal his gun from him. The first fatal shots were fired out from the barrel of Kyle's gun, not because someone puffed his chest, but because someone literally grabbed the gun after cornering him. The second fatality down the street occured in the same way; the possession of that gun was being physically challenged by Mr. Huber (who had just used a skateboard as a deadly weapon).

Then, a moment later, Kyle faced Gaige, approaching with a pistol in his right hand.
(And let's not forget that Gaige knew Kyle was headed to the Police at the corner).

I would love to see the video taken by Ashley Krueger. Has there been a subpoena issued for her phone yet?
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Old 9th February 2021, 05:45 PM   #572
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"An armed criminal has no self defense claim." -- plague311.


Wisconsin law (939.48) says that position is incorrect.

Quote:
(a) A person who engages in unlawful conduct of a type likely to provoke others to attack him or her and thereby does provoke an attack is not entitled to claim the privilege of self-defense against such attack, except when the attack which ensues is of a type causing the person engaging in the unlawful conduct to reasonably believe that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm. In such a case, the person engaging in the unlawful conduct is privileged to act in self-defense, but the person is not privileged to resort to the use of force intended or likely to cause death to the person's assailant unless the person reasonably believes he or she has exhausted every other reasonable means to escape from or otherwise avoid death or great bodily harm at the hands of his or her assailant.

....

(6) In this section “unlawful" means either tortious or expressly prohibited by criminal law or both.

and (c) A person who provokes an attack, whether by lawful or unlawful conduct, with intent to use such an attack as an excuse to cause death or great bodily harm to his or her assailant is not entitled to claim the privilege of self-defense.
This is where social media posts and such come in. If he was there because he wanted a chance to shoot antifa, then no self-defense.

That 'c' part of the statute may be explored further, with some evidence to support, but certainly, just having the gun slung over his shoulder is not a "provocation"
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Old 10th February 2021, 12:08 AM   #573
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
"You can't claim self-defense if you initiate an interaction. Got me? You can't push someone, then when they punch you, shoot them in the face." -- smartcooky.
You are lying. I never, ever said that.

Prove that I did or withdraw your lies
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Old 10th February 2021, 06:36 AM   #574
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post

Kyle did not present a danger to the public in Kenosha on August 25, 2020, and he doesn't present one now. If the court thought he was, then no bail would have been set, not $20,000, not $2-million.
Not how that works.

Under Wisconsin law in order to totally deny bond it looks like the state would have to show by clear and convincing evidence that he had committed what amounts to first degree murder and that he is an immediate danger. So basically a mini-bench trial.

So they set the bond at millions instead. This is probably why the state isn't going for a modification to totally revoke bond. At this point they have no interest in doing an evidentiary hearing so all they can do is ask for an increase.
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Old 10th February 2021, 07:10 AM   #575
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"they have no interest in doing an evidentiary hearing..."

I wonder why that is?

BTW, smartcooky was improperly/inadvertently credited with a quote above, no biggie.
Fair enough, apology extended.

My rebuttal to the quote itself is important, not who said it.

And I'll offer Plague311 TWO apologies now, one for incorrectly confusing his words with the smartcooky handle, and another one for attributing a statement to him while it was actually Thermal that posted the statement about the armed criminal self-defense thing.

I should just use the actual quote option in future!

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Old 10th February 2021, 07:13 AM   #576
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Assuming they get their bond increase, any idea who's going to pony up the cash?

I'm assuming PillowDude is too concerned with his own upcoming defamation case to be sending more money to Rittenhouse.
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Old 10th February 2021, 07:14 AM   #577
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
"An armed criminal has no self defense claim." -- plague311.


Wisconsin law (939.48) says that position is incorrect.

Quote:
(a) A person who engages in unlawful conduct of a type likely to provoke others to attack him or her and thereby does provoke an attack is not entitled to claim the privilege of self-defense against such attack, except when the attack which ensues is of a type causing the person engaging in the unlawful conduct to reasonably believe that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm. In such a case, the person engaging in the unlawful conduct is privileged to act in self-defense, but the person is not privileged to resort to the use of force intended or likely to cause death to the person's assailant unless the person reasonably believes he or she has exhausted every other reasonable means to escape from or otherwise avoid death or great bodily harm at the hands of his or her assailant.
There you go. Kyle initiated the encounter. That means, and I'll say it slowly, he isn't entitled to a self-defense argument. This is what I've been trying to explain to you the entire time. Kyle is on video saying he was there to "protect this business", which he wasn't asked, nor invited to do. There is at least 1 witness saying Kyle pointed his gun, and encountered more than 1 individual. The gentleman himself had Kyle point his gun at him because he was walking through a car lot. That means, by every single standard, Kyle did absolutely nothing to prevent his use of force because HE INITIATED THE CONFRONTATION. He thought he was a cop, he wasn't. He ****** up, he's going to prison. Rittenhouse was the assailant, not the other way around.
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Old 10th February 2021, 07:21 AM   #578
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
There you go. Kyle initiated the encounter. That means, and I'll say it slowly, he isn't entitled to a self-defense argument. This is what I've been trying to explain to you the entire time. Kyle is on video saying he was there to "protect this business", which he wasn't asked, nor invited to do. There is at least 1 witness saying Kyle pointed his gun, and encountered more than 1 individual. The gentleman himself had Kyle point his gun at him because he was walking through a car lot. That means, by every single standard, Kyle did absolutely nothing to prevent his use of force because HE INITIATED THE CONFRONTATION. He thought he was a cop, he wasn't. He ****** up, he's going to prison. Rittenhouse was the assailant, not the other way around.
Well said.

It seems very likely to me that there is going to be testimony at this trial that paints Kyle's pre-shooting behavior in a very negative light. Like you said, probably several instances of brandishing a weapon and generally engaged in criminal escalation of violence. There's a reason that Kyle and his first victim were engaged in some kind of ongoing conflict, and I very much doubt that evidence is going to show that Kyle was acting within the law in the preceding moments of the shooting.

Kyle's defenders like to look at each video of his murder spree in isolation and try to fill in the blanks with exonerating narratives. That might cut the mustard for right wing imaginations, but likely will not work in court.

Strange that most of the defenders seem to focus on the first shooting and almost no mention of the second. His most serious charge, 1st degree murder, is from his shooting of Huber.

I have a feeling that Rittenhouse is not going to get much sympathy from a jury in his decision to shoot and kill a man with a skateboard bravely attempting to apprehend a gunman fleeing the scene of a shooting. Of course, one of his shooting victims lived, and I imagine his testimony is also going to be very damning for Rittenhouse.

From my reading of the relevant law, 1st degree murder carries a mandatory life sentence. Whether or not he escapes justice for the killing of Rosenbaum may be irrelevant if he's found guilty for the 1st degree murder of Huber.
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Old 10th February 2021, 07:21 AM   #579
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
"they have no interest in doing an evidentiary hearing..."

I wonder why that is?
Does that matter to the point that you were repeatedly making a false claim?
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Old 10th February 2021, 09:15 AM   #580
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
"they have no interest in doing an evidentiary hearing..."

I wonder why that is?

BTW, smartcooky was improperly/inadvertently credited with a quote above, no biggie.
Fair enough, apology extended.

My rebuttal to the quote itself is important, not who said it.

And I'll offer Plague311 TWO apologies now, one for incorrectly confusing his words with the smartcooky handle, and another one for attributing a statement to him while it was actually Thermal that posted the statement about the armed criminal self-defense thing.

I should just use the actual quote option in future!
Yeah, and we have posted and discussed that same statute repeatedly. You're just handwaving and repeating the same arguments. Getting repetitive, no?

Kyle cannot claim self defense if he provoked, legally or illegally the attack. Many here think it is self evident that he did provoke, simply by putting himself illegally armed into a riot he had no business in. He had no law enforcement powers. He was just another armed criminal, no matter what kind of avenging angel you want to paint him as.

This is a lot like throwing yourself willingly into a brawl. You are a mutually consenting participant, not some homeowner pushing back against home invaders. Kyle picked a fight by willfully, and utterly needlessly and illegally, entering a riot that his precious ass ended up shooting his way out of.
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Old 10th February 2021, 09:43 AM   #581
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
You are a mutually consenting participant, not some homeowner pushing back against home invaders.
By no means did you not cover this enough, but if you read the statute web is referring to it seems to repeat the words:

Quote:
The person against whom the force was used was in the actor's dwelling, motor vehicle, or place of business after unlawfully and forcibly entering it...
Hilite mine, and if you read that same statute at the top it labels a place of business as:

Quote:
939.48(1m)(a)2. 2. "Place of business" means a business that the actor owns or operates.
Which doesn't apply to Kyle at all. There is absolutely nothing connecting Kyle to that place of business. No family, no friends, nothing.
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Old 10th February 2021, 10:00 AM   #582
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I'd like to dissect this a bit more as well, so I'm going to link to the majority of the law here while trying to shorten up the irrelevant parts. If this has been done before, I apologize for the repetition.

This is subsection one:

Quote:
939.48(1) (1) A person is privileged to threaten or intentionally use force against another for the purpose of preventing or terminating what the person reasonably believes to be an unlawful interference with his or her person by such other person. The actor may intentionally use only such force or threat thereof as the actor reasonably believes is necessary to prevent or terminate the interference. The actor may not intentionally use force which is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm unless the actor reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself.
Best case scenario Kyle could only use enough force to stop the force he was met with, and no one he confronted initially had a gun. Shooting a man with a plastic baggy isn't a reasonable reaction. At all. It gets better. I'll post the next part with a TL; DR underneath it.

Quote:
939.48(1m)(ar) (ar) If an actor intentionally used force that was intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm, the court may not consider whether the actor had an opportunity to flee or retreat before he or she used force and shall presume that the actor reasonably believed that the force was necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself if the actor makes such a claim under sub. (1) and either of the following applies:

939.48(1m)(ar)1. 1. The person against whom the force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcibly entering the actor's dwelling, motor vehicle, or place of business, the actor was present in the dwelling, motor vehicle, or place of business, and the actor knew or reasonably believed that an unlawful and forcible entry was occurring.

939.48(1m)(ar)2. 2. The person against whom the force was used was in the actor's dwelling, motor vehicle, or place of business after unlawfully and forcibly entering it, the actor was present in the dwelling, motor vehicle, or place of business, and the actor knew or reasonably believed that the person had unlawfully and forcibly entered the dwelling, motor vehicle, or place of business.
This is just "stand your ground" stuff. He's not required to flee at all IF and ONLY IF the following subsections are met. Those subsections require that whoever he shot was in the act of breaking into KYLE'S dwelling, car or place of business. None of which applies to Kyle as no one was trying to break into anything of Kyles' at all.

There's nothing in this law or any other that protects Kyle, and his only hope is to get a sympathetic jury that loves people getting shot I suppose.
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Old 10th February 2021, 10:08 AM   #583
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
There's nothing in this law or any other that protects Kyle, and his only hope is to get a sympathetic jury that loves people getting shot I suppose.
I'm hoping that recent events will have soured the general public a bit more when it comes to right wing violence.

It only takes one to hang the jury though.
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Old 10th February 2021, 10:21 AM   #584
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I'm hoping that recent events will have soured the general public a bit more when it comes to right wing violence.

It only takes one to hang the jury though.
I agree, and it appears that he's going to be going to a jury trial. Which, given everything, would really be his best shot. The only problem is it's all or nothing. If the prosecutor gives Kyle a reasonable plea bargain, Kyle takes it to jury trial and loses, I guarantee his punishment will be on the harsher end. If it's one thing I know about judges through my years of experience, they're definitely rough at the end of a trial.
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Old 10th February 2021, 10:24 AM   #585
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I'm hoping that recent events will have soured the general public a bit more when it comes to right wing violence.

It only takes one to hang the jury though.
If it goes to trial I'd imagine the state would have to spend some absurd amount as to jury selection to investigate the panel.

The one upside to a bunch of fools being radicalized online is that they can't hope but tell on themselves. The vast majority of people that would actually spite hang a jury probably have already said as much somewhere on facebook or whatever.
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Old 11th February 2021, 01:35 PM   #586
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No changes to Kyle's bail. The judge will get the address and refuses to share it with the prosecution. Apparently it got a little heated.
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Old 11th February 2021, 01:50 PM   #587
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
No changes to Kyle's bail. The judge will get the address and refuses to share it with the prosecution. Apparently it got a little heated.
Much like the barrel of an AR-15 wielded by a minor who tried to show a bunch of rioters who the Law is in Kenosha.
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Old 11th February 2021, 01:56 PM   #588
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
No changes to Kyle's bail. The judge will get the address and refuses to share it with the prosecution. Apparently it got a little heated.
Truly an absurd decision.

How is the prosecution supposed to ensure that Rittenhouse is following his bail conditions if they don't know where he is?
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Old 11th February 2021, 05:13 PM   #589
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
My understanding is that you must be 21 to buy alcohol in the US,and often to be served. In my beloved NJ, underagers can drink at home at least with parental consent.
I think that laws concerning drinking are pretty much a state/local matter.
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Old 11th February 2021, 07:24 PM   #590
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I agree, and it appears that he's going to be going to a jury trial. Which, given everything, would really be his best shot....
Uh, he took his best shots on Aug.25th 2020.

** rim shot ** baBump-Bump.
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Old 11th February 2021, 07:38 PM   #591
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
Uh, he took his best shots on Aug.25th 2020.

** rim shot ** baBump-Bump.
You really are confident he's gonna walk? Assuming he isn't murdered prior to the trial, that is.

Personally, I think it's quite clear he's guilty, but who knows if he'll be convicted. Sure will be funny if the right wing's golden boy gets a life sentence though. Fingers crossed!
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Old 11th February 2021, 08:56 PM   #592
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
You really are confident he's gonna walk? Assuming he isn't murdered prior to the trial, that is.
-------- Walk? Yes, I am confident his affirmative defense should prevail regarding the 2 murder charges and the attempted murder. The other ancillary charges are sorta frivolous when the main ones are thrown out.
It seems safe to say that violence from those who are threatening him was taken into account by this particular Judge. Being in the jail could be a severe danger, exposing the State to liability issues and requiring special (and expensive) measures to protect him; showing his hide-out address to the public is also a terrible idea.

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Personally, I think it's quite clear he's guilty, but who knows if he'll be convicted. Sure will be funny if the right wing's golden boy gets a life sentence though. Fingers crossed!
Personally, I cannot think of a more clear case of self-defense captured on video!

'Funny' to see someone of his tender age receive a life sentence? I can only imagine the guffaws and giggles that would be expressed by you if a court sentenced him to death. (if there was such an option)
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Old 11th February 2021, 09:03 PM   #593
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Truly an absurd decision.

How is the prosecution supposed to ensure that Rittenhouse is following his bail conditions if they don't know where he is?
His location is known to the Court.
The bail conditions were not changed yesterday.
He will be in Court on March 10th, no doubt requesting a continuance (jury selection is due to begin March 29, but that also seems to be an unrealistic timeline).
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Old 11th February 2021, 09:08 PM   #594
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Much like the barrel of an AR-15 wielded by a minor who tried to show a bunch of rioters who the Law is in Kenosha.
The Law was not showing who the Law was.

The rioters dispersed and never came back after the night of August 25th.
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Old 11th February 2021, 09:26 PM   #595
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"Kyle cannot claim self-defense if he provoked, legally or illegally the attack."

The statute says otherwise:
"(a) A person who engages in unlawful conduct of a type likely to provoke others to attack him or her and thereby does provoke an attack is not entitled to claim the privilege of self-defense against such attack, except when the attack which ensues is of a type causing the person engaging in the unlawful conduct to reasonably believe that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm."

That exception absolutely, without any scintilla of a questionmark, applies here.
I sure hope we get to see the videos from the camera of Ashley Krueger.
(she probably will claim the camera was 'stolen' just like her freakshow BF claimed his handgun --- that he fired at Rittenhouse --- was stolen, when he was arrested and charged by the KPD).
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Old 12th February 2021, 06:51 AM   #596
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
...after he travelled to a riot he had no business in with a loaded high-powered rifle, having malice aforethought.

Yeah, that is pretty much the entire situation.
I've never really understood the whole "no business" thing. I feel like that's a thing that could be said about two of the people shot by Rittenhouse, since they travelled to Kenosha to join the riots.

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Kyle almost certainly going to be convicted of some of his charges. Whether or not he gets the grand prize of multiple murders, or just slides away with the various smaller charges remains to be seen.
Personally, I think the only charge he's certainly going down for will be the firearms charge.

Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
There you go. Kyle initiated the encounter. That means, and I'll say it slowly, he isn't entitled to a self-defense argument. This is what I've been trying to explain to you the entire time. Kyle is on video saying he was there to "protect this business", which he wasn't asked, nor invited to do. There is at least 1 witness saying Kyle pointed his gun, and encountered more than 1 individual. The gentleman himself had Kyle point his gun at him because he was walking through a car lot. That means, by every single standard, Kyle did absolutely nothing to prevent his use of force because HE INITIATED THE CONFRONTATION. He thought he was a cop, he wasn't. He ****** up, he's going to prison. Rittenhouse was the assailant, not the other way around.
Are you arguing that he initiated the encounter by being there, or because he pointed his gun at someone who wasn't any of the people who would go on to get shot?

If that is indeed the case, couldn't you say that Rosenbaum was the aggressor for starting all those fires and getting angry that people were putting them out?

At what point does the actions of a person not result in the initiation of an encounter?

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
It seems very likely to me that there is going to be testimony at this trial that paints Kyle's pre-shooting behavior in a very negative light. Like you said, probably several instances of brandishing a weapon and generally engaged in criminal escalation of violence.
There's probably going to be testimony that paints his pre-shooting behaviour in the opposite light as well.

Quote:
There's a reason that Kyle and his first victim were engaged in some kind of ongoing conflict, and I very much doubt that evidence is going to show that Kyle was acting within the law in the preceding moments of the shooting.
From what is alleged Rosenbaum was angry that Rittenhouse put out a fire that Rosenbaum started and was mistaken for the guy who put out the dumpster fire that Roesenbaum was pushing towards a petrol station.

Quote:
Kyle's defenders like to look at each video of his murder spree in isolation and try to fill in the blanks with exonerating narratives. That might cut the mustard for right wing imaginations, but likely will not work in court.
If they can prove the blanks then it might.

Quote:
Strange that most of the defenders seem to focus on the first shooting and almost no mention of the second. His most serious charge, 1st degree murder, is from his shooting of Huber.
Personally I don't know if that charge will stick. I think there'd be a better chance if it was a reckless homicide charge, but not an intentional one. I think the only way intentional homicide would stick would be if the reckless endangering of safety charge against "unknown male" sticks. If a jury finds that charge to be self defence then the intentional homicide charge would pretty much fall apart since it's part of the same incident.

Quote:
I have a feeling that Rittenhouse is not going to get much sympathy from a jury in his decision to shoot and kill a man with a skateboard bravely attempting to apprehend a gunman fleeing the scene of a shooting. Of course, one of his shooting victims lived, and I imagine his testimony is also going to be very damning for Rittenhouse.
Or you just make the argument that Huber, who was also not from Kenosha, shouldn't have been there in the first place and shouldn't have attacked some guy who shot people with a skateboard while playing vigilante.

I don't really know how Grosskreutz' testimony will be damaging. He either pointed a gun at, or was moving towards Rittenhouse while holding a gun, which based on what was happening seems like a pretty stupid thing to do if you're just playing vigilante.

Quote:
From my reading of the relevant law, 1st degree murder carries a mandatory life sentence. Whether or not he escapes justice for the killing of Rosenbaum may be irrelevant if he's found guilty for the 1st degree murder of Huber.
Agreed.

Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I'd like to dissect this a bit more as well, so I'm going to link to the majority of the law here while trying to shorten up the irrelevant parts. If this has been done before, I apologize for the repetition.

This is subsection one:

<snipped because it didn't quote>

Best case scenario Kyle could only use enough force to stop the force he was met with, and no one he confronted initially had a gun. Shooting a man with a plastic baggy isn't a reasonable reaction. At all. It gets better. I'll post the next part with a TL; DR underneath it.
That's probably why the defence will be arguing that Ziminski's "warning shot" was a factor that changes the circumstances surrounding the shooting based on the part of the statute webfusion posted.

Quote:
This is just "stand your ground" stuff. He's not required to flee at all IF and ONLY IF the following subsections are met. Those subsections require that whoever he shot was in the act of breaking into KYLE'S dwelling, car or place of business. None of which applies to Kyle as no one was trying to break into anything of Kyles' at all.

There's nothing in this law or any other that protects Kyle, and his only hope is to get a sympathetic jury that loves people getting shot I suppose.
I mean the footage leading up to the shooting does show him running away until Ziminski decides that the best thing to do is fire a warning shot which seems to have been the point where Rittenhouse turns around leading to him shooting Rosenbaum. Unless you're claiming that running away from Rosenbaum before the shooting doesn't count.

As an aside, I find it interesting that Ziminski doesn't get a charge of recklessly endangering the safety of McGinnis for his actions.
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Old 12th February 2021, 06:54 AM   #597
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
"Kyle cannot claim self-defense if he provoked, legally or illegally the attack."

The statute says otherwise:
"(a) A person who engages in unlawful conduct of a type likely to provoke others to attack him or her and thereby does provoke an attack is not entitled to claim the privilege of self-defense against such attack, except when the attack which ensues is of a type causing the person engaging in the unlawful conduct to reasonably believe that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm."

That exception absolutely, without any scintilla of a questionmark, applies here.
I sure hope we get to see the videos from the camera of Ashley Krueger.
(she probably will claim the camera was 'stolen' just like her freakshow BF claimed his handgun --- that he fired at Rittenhouse --- was stolen, when he was arrested and charged by the KPD).
I fully broke this down. That section (a) only applies if he's defending his dwelling, motor vehicle or place of business. I don't really understand why you're not getting that, but I'm assuming now that you're just refusing to see it. Good luck with that.
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Old 12th February 2021, 06:59 AM   #598
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Originally Posted by Wildy View Post
*snip*
All of this has been addressed, and this is just getting circular now.

Until something new comes out I'll just leave it at this. You guys keep on thinking that Kyle was the one acting in self-defense as he walked around property (of which he wasn't invited to), while confronting multiple people with his weapon (of which he wasn't supposed to have), and then eventually killing multiple people, where he then calls his buddy to let him in on the scoop.

I'll be extremely happy when everything shakes out and look forward to coming back to this thread.
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Old 12th February 2021, 07:50 AM   #599
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Originally Posted by Wildy View Post
I've never really understood the whole "no business" thing. I feel like that's a thing that could be said about two of the people shot by Rittenhouse, since they travelled to Kenosha to join the riots.
As plague said, we've been through this ad nauseum.
All in the riot who were not cops were criminals. Agreed.

What Kyle did was the equivalent of hearing about a bar brawl in the next State over, then wading into the middle of it with a highly visible people-liquifying rifle ( as opposed to a discrete handgun for just-in-case self defense).

Everyone at the bar brawl is a property destroying, assaulting and battering criminal. Agreed. Now put yourself in the hypothetical barfight. You see some kid waltz in with a high-powered rifle. He is not a cop. What do you do?

A very predictable answer is "try to get the people liquifier out of this idiot's hands before he starts shooting". Which is also why many of us see his very illegally armed presence as a form of provocation.

Eta: remove stupid smiley icon
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Old 12th February 2021, 09:09 AM   #600
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"...try to get the people liquifier out of this idiot's hands before he starts shooting".

Try it, and suffer the consequences; namely, I will start pulling the trigger as soon as you come over and physically grab my weapon. Now, who is the idiot?
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