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Tags Kyle Rittenhouse , murder cases

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Old 16th February 2021, 07:00 AM   #641
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I had gun rack in my truck in high school. Depending on the season*, I would often have a bow, rifle, or shotgun in my truck's rack in the school parking lot during hunting season. We would change into camo in the school parking lot during dove season because we had a place nearby to hunt after class.


*This year I finally decided I wanted some venison and went to go get a license. Turns out I missed the season by two weeks. Weird how something can go from dictating most of your free time to being of no consequence over time.
I don't think I've ever seen a gun rack in a truck. I grew up in the city but spent a lot of my time in rural Minnesota (around the Pelican Rapids area), so you'd think I would have seen 1 or 2. My extended family absolutely love hunting.
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Old 16th February 2021, 07:23 AM   #642
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Originally Posted by Wildy View Post
I've never really understood the whole "no business" thing. I feel like that's a thing that could be said about two of the people shot by Rittenhouse, since they travelled to Kenosha to join the riots.
And if they shot and killed someone that could well be a problem for them.

I know you think it was open season on anyone you can pass off as a rioter, doesn't make it legal to shoot and kill them.
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Old 16th February 2021, 07:31 AM   #643
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Grosskreuz is a paramedic. He holds a EMT-B cert.
Strictly speaking a paramedic is an EMT-P a much higher level of training and certification than EMT-B.

Here is a source on the levels of EMT that exist in various states.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emerge..._by_U.S._state

But strictly speaking invasive interventions are limited to paramedics, while bandages and oxygen is covered by EMT-B. Needles and Drugs are all paramedic stuff.
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Old 16th February 2021, 07:42 AM   #644
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Strictly speaking a paramedic is an EMT-P a much higher level of training and certification than EMT-B.

Here is a source on the levels of EMT that exist in various states.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emerge..._by_U.S._state

But strictly speaking invasive interventions are limited to paramedics, while bandages and oxygen is covered by EMT-B. Needles and Drugs are all paramedic stuff.
Yeah, that's not great. An EMT-B ought to know better than to wear anything claiming to be a paramedic. Apparently he was competent enough to talk a bystander through applying a tourniquet to his arm, so that's something. Rittenhouse claimed to be a EMT and had no certification at all, and left the scene of a fatally wounded man rather than attempt to render aid.

Generally speaking, I would be wary of any street medic that is carrying a weapon. None of the street medic groups I'm aware of carry weapons while offering medical services at protests. They usually make a point of making it clear they are "noncombatants", not that such things ever stop the cops from targeting medical volunteers.
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Old 19th February 2021, 07:30 AM   #645
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Not to mention that it really wouldn't matter, as his very presence on the streets was in direct violation of the curfew order, so he's violating the law from the start, especially if the illegal carrying charge sticks.
Thing is he's not being charged for a curfew violation. I don't know whether this is a jurisdictional thing, but it seems odd that they aren't charging him for something that would help make their case.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
You're skipping over the big part. Drawing a weapon for use in self-defense is one thing. Having it out and at the ready prior to any threat of imminent grave danger is quite another.

That's the difference between open and concealed carry, and brandishing. I assume we now have to go down the rabbit hole of the difference between having a weapon in a holster and having it out and at the ready prior to any imminent threat?
I'm assuming that when you say "open carry" you specifically mean people carrying guns in a manner similar to the picture of the guys in that USA Today article you linked to.

If that is indeed the case, does that mean you say how Rittenhouse was carrying his weapon is considered "brandishing"?

Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
No, it doesn't come down to what I think. The law is specific and I quoted it above.
It is, but it seems apparent that you're interpreting it wrong. Let's go back to the post of yours I was initially responding to:

Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
"Kyle cannot claim self-defense if he provoked, legally or illegally the attack."

The statute says otherwise:
"(a) A person who engages in unlawful conduct of a type likely to provoke others to attack him or her and thereby does provoke an attack is not entitled to claim the privilege of self-defense against such attack, except when the attack which ensues is of a type causing the person engaging in the unlawful conduct to reasonably believe that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm."

That exception absolutely, without any scintilla of a questionmark, applies here.
I sure hope we get to see the videos from the camera of Ashley Krueger.
(she probably will claim the camera was 'stolen' just like her freakshow BF claimed his handgun --- that he fired at Rittenhouse --- was stolen, when he was arrested and charged by the KPD).
I fully broke this down. That section (a) only applies if he's defending his dwelling, motor vehicle or place of business. I don't really understand why you're not getting that, but I'm assuming now that you're just refusing to see it. Good luck with that.
Webfusion quotes 939.48 (2) (a) of the Wisconsin code which you seem to believe only applies to defending a dwelling, motor vehicle, or place of business. Do you really think that's a correct interpretation of the law?

Quote:
Ok, so what does you want me to take from that? If you think Rittenhouse was justified because Jojo was out past curfew, I don't think that will fly. I really hope Kyle tries it, but I don't think it'll work like that. If that's not what you're referring to then perhaps something more than a vague reference to the law is in order?
I was referring more to your argument that Rittenhouse wasn't required to flee only if the points in 939.48 (1m) (ar) were met, the section I referenced makes it quite clear that even if he did meet those requirements it still wouldn't apply since being illegally armed would be considered an illegal act.

I didn't bother elaborating because it's more a comment on how you made your argument more than an actual argument.
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Old 11th March 2021, 05:49 AM   #646
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Prosecution and defense agree to postpone trial until November.

Quote:
Prosecutors as well as Rittenhouse's defense attorneys had asked for the postponement, arguing they needed more time to build their respective cases. Kenosha County Circuit Judge Bruce Schroeder also set a meeting for May, to ensure that the new timeline still works for the two legal teams.
https://www.npr.org/2021/03/10/97584..._medium=social
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Old 13th March 2021, 08:06 AM   #647
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Prosecutors need more time to build their case? Really? What are they anticipating, maybe finding the cellphone of Ashley Kreuger?!!
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Old 13th March 2021, 08:10 AM   #648
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
Prosecutors need more time to build their case? Really? What are they anticipating, maybe finding the cellphone of Ashley Kreuger?!!
And the defence.
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Old 13th March 2021, 07:36 PM   #649
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
And the defence.
What about it?
The defendant is relaxing at (an undisclosed) home, after defeating the prosecution's efforts to have him incarcerated until trial. He doesn't care if the trial goes on until 2023.
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Old 14th March 2021, 03:09 PM   #650
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
Prosecutors need more time to build their case? Really? What are they anticipating, maybe finding the cellphone of Ashley Kreuger?!!
The article doesn't say, so I won't speculate.

Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
He doesn't care if the trial goes on until 2023.
Indeed. The longer it takes, the longer he stays out of prison.
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Old 14th March 2021, 05:57 PM   #651
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
The article doesn't say, so I won't speculate.

Indeed. The longer it takes, the longer he stays out of prison.

Very true.

Also - I'm guessing the attorney general would like to delay the trial for as long as possible hoping the political climate will cool down. No matter which way the jury finds - there are going to be a lot of very, very, angry people.

As for Rittenhouse - I am sure his lawyers would also be happy for a very long delay. So far their client comes across as immature, somewhat stupid, and certainly not likeable. I think they are hoping that he matures and learns his lines well so that he comes off as believable in front of the jury.
No matter what the witnesses say - his only hope is to convince a jury that he was in fear for his life. He can only do that if he testifies on his own behalf and comes across as believable and sympathetic. If his lawyers think he is incapable of learning his lines and coming across as sympathetic and would harm his own case by testifying then his goose is cooked - IMHO.
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Old 15th March 2021, 04:24 PM   #652
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
What about it?
The defendant is relaxing at (an undisclosed) home, after defeating the prosecution's efforts to have him incarcerated until trial. He doesn't care if the trial goes on until 2023.
Yeah, I'm positive he's ultra jazzed about being under a murder indictment. He gets to do all of the things that kids his age do like...uhm...sit inside a house at an undisclosed location, and then, uhm, he also gets to, lets see....uhm. Oh yeah, **** all because everyone (except some **** kicking racists that he's now banned from seeing) hate him so much that he fears for his life.

I'm sure you've nailed this right on the head. Innocent people always think like that too. "I hope this will drag on as long as possible so I can be semi-free while under restrictions from a court vs. getting this over with because I'm innocent."

You're, like, super duper good at this. You should be his lawyer.
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Old 15th March 2021, 04:26 PM   #653
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
Very true.

Also - I'm guessing the attorney general would like to delay the trial for as long as possible hoping the political climate will cool down. No matter which way the jury finds - there are going to be a lot of very, very, angry people.

As for Rittenhouse - I am sure his lawyers would also be happy for a very long delay. So far their client comes across as immature, somewhat stupid, and certainly not likeable. I think they are hoping that he matures and learns his lines well so that he comes off as believable in front of the jury.
No matter what the witnesses say - his only hope is to convince a jury that he was in fear for his life. He can only do that if he testifies on his own behalf and comes across as believable and sympathetic. If his lawyers think he is incapable of learning his lines and coming across as sympathetic and would harm his own case by testifying then his goose is cooked - IMHO.
I disagree, putting him on the stand would be an extremely bad idea. He has no impulse control, as if that's not clear in spades, and he has no ability to make decisions when pressured. Any mildly decent DA will get him a bit hot and bothered by reading off his social media, show pictures of him with known racists, drill to why he's making that weird "ok" symbol in front of the crowd, ask him why he had a gun, why he was there, until he eventually says something regrettably stupid.
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Old 15th March 2021, 05:29 PM   #654
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I disagree, putting him on the stand would be an extremely bad idea. He has no impulse control, as if that's not clear in spades, and he has no ability to make decisions when pressured. Any mildly decent DA will get him a bit hot and bothered by reading off his social media, show pictures of him with known racists, drill to why he's making that weird "ok" symbol in front of the crowd, ask him why he had a gun, why he was there, until he eventually says something regrettably stupid.
Which is essentially what I said. He can't win without taking the stand and he can't take the stand unless he matures, learn his lines, and becomes more likeable than what he has shown so far.
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Old 16th March 2021, 06:00 AM   #655
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
Which is essentially what I said. He can't win without taking the stand and he can't take the stand unless he matures, learn his lines, and becomes more likeable than what he has shown so far.
I understood what you were saying, I was opining that maturing is not something he can get down in 3-4 months. It's really, extremely tough to learn lines when you don't know what questions are going to be asked. The images aren't going to go anywhere, and I would bet the prosecution will have multiple images on stands throughout the whole trial.

Never know, I guess. You might be right, he could figure it all out, but considering his decisions thus far I'm not holding my breath. He killed someone and went out to a bar, drinking under 21, with a bunch of racists without a second thought...with his mom. Who is going to mature him?
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Old 16th March 2021, 07:10 AM   #656
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Quote:
The defendant is relaxing at (an undisclosed) home, after defeating the prosecution's efforts to have him incarcerated until trial. He doesn't care if the trial goes on until 2023.
Yeah, I'm positive he's ultra jazzed about being under a murder indictment. He gets to do all of the things that kids his age do like...uhm...sit inside a house at an undisclosed location, and then, uhm, he also gets to, lets see....uhm. Oh yeah, **** all because everyone (except some **** kicking racists that he's now banned from seeing) hate him so much that he fears for his life.
I am not saying he LIKES the current situation. (Yes, he's largely remaining in hiding, has limited contacts, etc.)

But, I am sure he thinks it is a much better situation than if he were in prison...
- Right now, he is in hiding. But, he can set his own schedule. (Sleep when he wants, watch TV/exercise, talk to friends.) In prison, he will have even less freedom.
- Right now, he has to worry about people on the street hating him. In prison, he will have to deal with various groups who may either dislike him, or will will target him for other reasons. And unlike the current situation (where he can avoid people he doesn't like), he will be less able to avoid people in prison
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Old 16th March 2021, 07:13 AM   #657
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Is he still proudly free as ****?
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Old 16th March 2021, 08:03 AM   #658
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
But, I am sure he thinks it is a much better situation than if he were in prison...
Jail. He'd be in jail before his trial, not prison.

Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
- Right now, he is in hiding. But, he can set his own schedule. (Sleep when he wants, watch TV/exercise, talk to friends.) In prison, he will have even less freedom.
- Right now, he has to worry about people on the street hating him. In prison, he will have to deal with various groups who may either dislike him, or will will target him for other reasons. And unlike the current situation (where he can avoid people he doesn't like), he will be less able to avoid people in prison
All of this is true. I was more refuting webfusion's implication that this is some form of awesome victory for him and that he'd like it to go on until 2023. I don't think there's anything shocking in saying being out of prison, in any form it takes, is better than being in; however, being in his current situation isn't a victory. It still completely sucks, and if he were innocent he would still want this over quickly rather than drug out for years.
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Old 16th March 2021, 02:06 PM   #659
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Quote:
But, I am sure he thinks it is a much better situation than if he were in prison...
Jail. He'd be in jail before his trial, not prison.
Yes, but my assumption was that 1) he would be found guilty, and 2) he would end up in prison for a long, long time (if not for life).

Assuming those end up being true, the it would make sense for him to want to delay the trial as long as possible to maximize the period of time he would have prior to being incarcerated (rather than have an early/quick trial, which would see an earlier end to what little freedom he does have.)
Quote:
All of this is true. I was more refuting webfusion's implication that this is some form of awesome victory for him and that he'd like it to go on until 2023. I don't think there's anything shocking in saying being out of prison, in any form it takes, is better than being in; however, being in his current situation isn't a victory. It still completely sucks, and if he were innocent he would still want this over quickly rather than drug out for years.
But that's the key thing, isn't it... IF he were innocent. (Of course not only would he have to BE innocent, he would also have to convince the jury.)

He might be looking at the facts in the case and either thinking to himself that he was guilty (ok, probably only a tiny chance of that), or that he was innocent (or justified) but was going to be "railroaded by the deep state" regardless of his guilt.
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Old 17th March 2021, 06:31 AM   #660
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
*snip for brevity*
Everything you said is true, and I agree with. The only reason I phrased it the way I did is because webfusion's default position is he's innocent.
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Old 17th March 2021, 06:19 PM   #661
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My default position actually is that Kyle's entitled to acquittal as a result of a successful affirmative claim of self-defense.

At no point have I seen anything in those videos EXCEPT valid decisions on Kyle's part to prevent his own life from being taken, in more than one instance that night.

He is a young man unquestionably guilty of homicides, but these shootings were all justifiable and appear to fall within the scope and plain language and context of the statutes.
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Old 19th March 2021, 09:31 AM   #662
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
At no point have I seen anything in those videos EXCEPT valid decisions on Kyle's part to prevent his own life from being taken, in more than one instance that night.
  • Going someplace he wasn't invited
  • Carrying a gun he wasn't entitled to carry
  • Out on the streets in violation of curfew

Those are all before he shot anyone, and not doing any of them would have stopped this situation from occurring. You have a ****** up view of "valid decisions".

I'm going to enjoy your reaction when he's inevitably put in prison for a long ass mother ******* time.
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Old 19th March 2021, 01:49 PM   #663
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Of the three items you mentioned, only one has a criminal charge (a misdemeanor) attached to this case.

AFAIK, not one individual was arrested for curfew violation in Kenosha during the entire melee. Even in this particular case, it is not part of the prosecution's charges. So, I will not consider it as a factor.

According to the Statute as written, even though he was (possibly) engaged in illegal activity, the right to self-defense still existed. How come you continue to hand-wave away that crucial legal element?

Going someplace he wasn't invited? So now 'invitations' to public disorders are a thing?
The town was being destroyed, and neither the Police nor the National Guard had a clue how to stop it. Kyle did not set out to Kenosha with the intention of stopping the rioting by using his gun to shoot the rioters. He had the weapon with him as protection.
And the m16 proved its value, as the situation developed.

I will enjoy YOUR reaction when he only gets a fine for M-I-P (possession of the weapon as a minor) -- and even THAT is not a given, as we've explored in this thread.

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Old 19th March 2021, 02:45 PM   #664
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
Quote:
At no point have I seen anything in those videos EXCEPT valid decisions on Kyle's part to prevent his own life from being taken, in more than one instance that night.
Quote:
Going someplace he wasn't invited
Carrying a gun he wasn't entitled to carry
Out on the streets in violation of curfew

Those are all before he shot anyone, and not doing any of them would have stopped this situation from occurring.
Of the three items you mentioned, only one has a criminal charge (a misdemeanor) attached to this case.
Irrelevant. The fact that he was only charged with one of those things does not necessarily mean that the others were acceptable courses of action.

Your earlier comment was about "valid decisions". You never said "illegal activities".

Being in violation of the curfew was illegal. Even if the police are not charging him, he was still breaking the law.

Going someplace he wasn't invited may not have been illegal, but it was an action that was both foolish, and had easily forseeable consequences.
Quote:
According to the Statute as written, even though he was (possibly) engaged in illegal activity,
Obtaining and carrying a weapon he did not have a legal right to is not 'possibly' illegal activity. It IS illegal activity.
Quote:
the right to self-defense still existed. How come you continue to hand-wave away that crucial legal element?
Because other people on this forum are not necessarily far-right gun nuts who are willing to justify the foolish actions of Rittenhouse because he "killed the right people".

The "right of self defense" only goes so far. I cannot walk into a bar, start harassing and threatening other customers, and then pull out a gun and shoot them when my actions result in them getting upset.

Quote:
The town was being destroyed, and neither the Police nor the National Guard had a clue how to stop it.
Probably because the police are part of the problem. People were protesting police brutality. Reform the police and these sorts of things won't happen again.
Quote:
Kyle did not set out to Kenosha with the intention of stopping the rioting by using his gun to shoot the rioters. He had the weapon with him as protection.
So what exactly did you think he expected to do?

"I'm going to confront some violent protesters but I'm sure if I just ask nicely they will stop. Oh wait... they didn't? Well I never expected to use this gun but I guess I have no other option than to shoot people.".
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Old 19th March 2021, 03:16 PM   #665
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When I refer to 'valid decisions' on the part of Kyle, I meant pulling the trigger as he was being assaulted and his life was in danger.

All the Would-ofs and Could-ofs and Should-ofs are meaningless here.
Rosenbaum was shot because he brought that on by his own actions.
Grosskreutz was shot because he brought that on by his own actions.
Huber, same.

All three men chose to ENGAGE violently with a gun-carrying citizen and they suffered the obvious consequences. None of THOSE people had ANY right to take the gun forcefully from Kyle Rittenhouse. Period.

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Old 19th March 2021, 03:47 PM   #666
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Irrelevant. The fact that he was only charged with one of those things does not necessarily mean that the others were acceptable courses of action.

Your earlier comment was about "valid decisions". You never said "illegal activities".

I already clarified what was meant by the 'valid decision' part of my post. (see above posting).

Being in violation of the curfew was illegal. Even if the police are not charging him, he was still breaking the law.

Going someplace he wasn't invited may not have been illegal, but it was an action that was both foolish, and had easily forseeable consequences.

--- Except for the actions of psycho-suicidal Joseph Rosenbaum, the night would have ended with everyone going home intact. Kyle wasn't going to just shoot people because they were protesting. That is quite clear from both his demeanor and his own words as spoken to reporter McGinnis on the scene.

Obtaining and carrying a weapon he did not have a legal right to is not 'possibly' illegal activity. It IS illegal activity.

--- Not relevant. The statute is crystal clear on this.

Because other people on this forum are not necessarily far-right gun nuts who are willing to justify the foolish actions of Rittenhouse because he "killed the right people".

--- He indeed killed (and shot in the arm) the right people, because the people he killed had wanted to kill him FIRST.
They were stopped from carrying out that nefarious plan of action.



The "right of self defense" only goes so far. I cannot walk into a bar, start harassing and threatening other customers, and then pull out a gun and shoot them when my actions result in them getting upset.

This is not even remotely what the situation was in Kenosha.
Why build a strawman here?


Probably because the police are part of the problem. People were protesting police brutality. Reform the police and these sorts of things won't happen again.

OK. How about people cease arguing, fighting, running from, and generally acting like dillweeds when Police interdict them for probable cause?

So what exactly did you think he expected to do?

He was doing what he expected to do. Providing an armed presence that was more credible than the cops or Army, to dissuade ongoing rioting.
As were the rest of the militia that night.
They were on guard. Nobody was directly threatened with being shot by ANY of them, and there are lots of videos to back that up; but maybe you can provide even ONE piece of footage showing any of these men raising their rifles and aiming at the crowd?


"I'm going to confront some violent protesters but I'm sure if I just ask nicely they will stop. Oh wait... they didn't? Well I never expected to use this gun but I guess I have no other option than to shoot people.".
Well, in that case, I guess America will just have to accept more violent protests, because nobody is gonna take a stand and prevent it. Good luck with that.


(See: Portland, Oregon)
Extreme-left demonstrators destroyed the Democratic headquarters in Portland hours after President Biden took the oath of office.
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Old 19th March 2021, 04:29 PM   #667
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
........
The defendant is relaxing at (an undisclosed) home,...........
To be fair, he's also underage bar-hopping, drinking with the Proud Boys and flashing white-power signs. Which beats being passed around by tougher inmates, buying toilet wine for 8 soups a serving, and having to get a neck tattoo for the Aryans to protect you in the joint.
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Old 19th March 2021, 04:35 PM   #668
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
To be fair, he's also underage bar-hopping, drinking with the Proud Boys and flashing white-power signs. Which beats being passed around by tougher inmates, buying toilet wine for 8 soups a serving, and having to get a neck tattoo for the Aryans to protect you in the joint.
He had been just released from jail on $2-million bond, went with his mom to ONE local bar, was met there by guys who had (ostensibly) provided money for his release, and he showed them his appreciation.

Here is a photo of the JUDGE in this case (Schroeder)
https://images.foxtv.com/static.fox6....png?ve=1&tl=1

Last edited by webfusion; 19th March 2021 at 04:51 PM. Reason: added link to photo of Judge in the case flashing White Power sign from the bench
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Old 19th March 2021, 06:51 PM   #669
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
underage
Nope. Wisconsin law permits people as young as 18 to consume alcohol if they are with a parent.


Quote:
bar-hopping
Nope.


Quote:
drinking with the Proud Boys
Evidence they were proud boys?


Quote:
flashing white-power signs
Nope. Not a white power sign. It was a troll created by 4-chan users to test if some people were dumb enough to fall for their hoax. Many failed, or passed, depending on your perspective.
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Old 19th March 2021, 09:22 PM   #670
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Obtaining and carrying a weapon he did not have a legal right to is not 'possibly' illegal activity. It IS illegal activity.
While I personally feel like this is a charge that he is most likely guilty of, I don't actually know that for sure.

Reading through the relevant legislation, Wisconsin Code 948.60, is sorta odd. The whole charge basically boils down to whether it applies under 948.60(3)(c) and that's based on how long the barrel length of the rifle is under section 941.28.

The other odd thing is that it's apparently not illegal for Rittenhouse to obtain the gun, if he had the money he theoretically could go around paying for the guns of hundreds of adults so long as he doesn't get the gun himself.


One thing that's very clear, however, is that the 19 year old who acquired the gun for him is gonna go to jail.
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Old 19th March 2021, 10:27 PM   #671
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
The "right of self defense" only goes so far. I cannot walk into a bar, start harassing and threatening other customers, and then pull out a gun and shoot them when my actions result in them getting upset.

...

"I'm going to confront some violent protesters but I'm sure if I just ask nicely they will stop. Oh wait... they didn't? Well I never expected to use this gun but I guess I have no other option than to shoot people.".
Some of the sources of the Wikipedia article seem questionable but the circumstances of the first shooting don't seem very similar to "walking into a bar, ... harassing and threatening other customers, ... then [pulling] out a gun and [shooting] them when [his] actions result in them getting upset" or "[confronting] some violent protesters but I'm sure if I just ask nicely they will stop. Oh wait... they didn't? Well I never expected to use this gun but I guess I have no other option than to shoot people."?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenosha_unrest_shooting
Quote:
Protesters were recorded on video pushing a burning dumpster through a crowd, towards a gas station. A guard, dressed in similar clothing to Rittenhouse – a green shirt, cap, and bag – put out the dumpster fire, which enraged Rosenbaum, who shouted verbal abuse at the guard. More arson took place and was recorded on video. Someone with identical features to Rittenhouse – having the same build, clothing, and rifle; and also wearing brown shoes, blue gloves, and an orange medical kit – was then seen running with a fire extinguisher. According to Rittenhouse's defense attorneys, the person with the fire extinguisher was indeed Rittenhouse, and what was not recorded on video was that he used it to put out one of the fires, which provoked a confrontation by Rosenbaum, who mistook Rittenhouse for the guard who had put out the dumpster fire earlier.

The beginning of the first confrontation between Rittenhouse and Rosenbaum was witnessed by Daily Caller reporter Richie McGinniss. According to McGinniss, it seemed that Rosenbaum and other protesters were moving toward Rittenhouse, who was trying to evade them; Rosenbaum then tried to "engage" Rittenhouse, but Rittenhouse managed to avoid this by sidestepping and running away.[31][32]

The remainder of Rosenbaum's confrontation, and the following incidents with Huber and Grosskreutz, were recorded in cellphone footage from multiple angles, including the moments of the shooting.[6] Video footage showed Rittenhouse being pursued across a parking lot by Rosenbaum,[5] who threw something in Rittenhouse's direction,[35][34] identified as a plastic bag.[33] As Rittenhouse was running from Rosenbaum, two shots could be heard, one from an unknown third party, fired for an unknown reason, and one from Joshua Ziminski, who fired a self-described "warning shot" into the air,[36] causing Rittenhouse to stop running and turn towards the sound of Ziminski's shot.[5] McGinniss has since stated that the sound of the shot was the moment Rittenhouse "went from running away to aiming his weapon."[36] Then, according to Kenosha County prosecutors, Rosenbaum engaged Rittenhouse and tried to take his rifle from him.[37][38][39] Rittenhouse then fired four shots, hitting Rosenbaum in the groin, back, and left hand.
I'm curious if any of this has been debunked. I've seen pictures of the second guy that was dressed similarly to Kyle Rittenhouse so the possibility of mistaken identity exists but only Joseph Rosenbaum would know the motivations for his actions that night so the part about being upset about someone extinguishing the dumpster fire and mistaking Kyle Rittenhouse for the one who did it must be speculation.

ETA: A better anology might be: a guy on probation walks into a bar full of patrons who are setting things on fire in the bar in support of police reform. So the guy tries to put out the fires then gets attacked by bar patrons and tries to avoid them then he kills a bar patron with a concealed gun he doesn't have a Concealed Carry permit for.

Last edited by Scopedog; 19th March 2021 at 10:45 PM.
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Old 20th March 2021, 12:01 AM   #672
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Originally Posted by Scopedog View Post
Some of the sources of the Wikipedia article seem questionable but the circumstances of the first shooting don't seem very similar to "walking into a bar, ... harassing and threatening other customers, ... then [pulling] out a gun and [shooting] them when [his] actions result in them getting upset" or "[confronting] some violent protesters but I'm sure if I just ask nicely they will stop. Oh wait... they didn't? Well I never expected to use this gun but I guess I have no other option than to shoot people."?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenosha_unrest_shooting


I'm curious if any of this has been debunked. I've seen pictures of the second guy that was dressed similarly to Kyle Rittenhouse so the possibility of mistaken identity exists but only Joseph Rosenbaum would know the motivations for his actions that night so the part about being upset about someone extinguishing the dumpster fire and mistaking Kyle Rittenhouse for the one who did it must be speculation.

ETA: A better anology might be: a guy on probation walks into a bar full of patrons who are setting things on fire in the bar in support of police reform. So the guy tries to put out the fires then gets attacked by bar patrons and tries to avoid them then he kills a bar patron with a concealed gun he doesn't have a Concealed Carry permit for.
"witnessed by Daily Caller reporter Richie McGinniss"

Well there's an unbiased, reliable witness!
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Old 20th March 2021, 12:26 AM   #673
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
"witnessed by Daily Caller reporter Richie McGinniss"

Well there's an unbiased, reliable witness!
If you feel that way, does that mean Rittenhouse should at least walk on the endangerment charge for endangering McGinniss?
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Old 20th March 2021, 01:07 AM   #674
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
None of THOSE people had ANY right to take the gun forcefully from Kyle Rittenhouse. Period.
"In general, a private person is justified in using non-deadly force upon another if they reasonably believe that: (1) such other person is committing a felony, or a misdemeanor amounting to a breach of the peace; and (2) the force used is necessary to prevent further commission of the offense and to apprehend the offender. The force must be reasonable under the circumstances to restrain the individual arrested. This includes the nature of the offense and the amount of force required to overcome resistance.[91][92] In at least one state, a civilian may use reasonable force, including deadly force if reasonable, to prevent an escape from a lawful citizen's arrest"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citize...#United_States

Is this valid in Wisconsin?
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Old 20th March 2021, 05:01 AM   #675
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
"witnessed by Daily Caller reporter Richie McGinniss"

Well there's an unbiased, reliable witness!
Feel free to discount that source but are there any videos depicting or sources claiming that Kyle Rittenhouse confronted, provoked, or in any way antagonized Joseph Rosenbaum or anyone else? There doesn't seem to be evidence of that in any video I've seen. Was his mere armed presence enough?

To be fair, I haven't seen evidence that Joseph Rosenbaum was setting fires but it seems very selective to only criticise and impugn Kyle Rittenhouse's presence there after the curfew. There seemed to be plenty of malefactors, miscreants, and people of questionable morals, maturity, and judgement out and about that night, including other armed ones.

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Old 20th March 2021, 02:24 PM   #676
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scopedog asks: "Was his mere armed presence enough (to antagonize the people engaged in rioting) ?"

Apparently, yes.

From my perspective, at some point, JoJo was likely screaming something to the effect of 'I'm gonna take the gun from you, and you ain't gonna like what happens then..."

Even a robbery motive could have been the situation here, with that gun having some value to the 1%-er motorcycle gang member that was 'backing up" this JoJo fellow.
(See: 'Alex Blaine')

I also notice that the victims of the Kyle Rittenhouse shootings are now suing. The suits from Grosskreutz and Huber's family, each issued notice of claim against the City of Kenosha, Kenosha County, the sheriff's department, Sheriff David Beth, Police Chief Daniel Miskinis as well as a "as-yet unknown" number of current or former City and law enforcement employees.
The suit said that on the night of the shooting, Kenosha police and the sheriff's department were "aware of, condoned, cooperated with and enabled the actions" of the armed vigilante groups who took it upon themselves to patrol the city in August, with law enforcement even filmed thanking the militia groups for their presence and handing out water.
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Old 21st March 2021, 02:26 AM   #677
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
scopedog asks: "Was his mere armed presence enough (to antagonize the people engaged in rioting) ?"

Apparently, yes.

From my perspective, at some point, JoJo was likely screaming something to the effect of 'I'm gonna take the gun from you, and you ain't gonna like what happens then..."

Even a robbery motive could have been the situation here, with that gun having some value to the 1%-er motorcycle gang member that was 'backing up" this JoJo fellow.
(See: 'Alex Blaine')

I also notice that the victims of the Kyle Rittenhouse shootings are now suing. The suits from Grosskreutz and Huber's family, each issued notice of claim against the City of Kenosha, Kenosha County, the sheriff's department, Sheriff David Beth, Police Chief Daniel Miskinis as well as a "as-yet unknown" number of current or former City and law enforcement employees.
The suit said that on the night of the shooting, Kenosha police and the sheriff's department were "aware of, condoned, cooperated with and enabled the actions" of the armed vigilante groups who took it upon themselves to patrol the city in August, with law enforcement even filmed thanking the militia groups for their presence and handing out water.
What a rich fiction you've created here. You should take up writing short stories.
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Old 21st March 2021, 03:04 AM   #678
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
From my perspective, at some point, JoJo was likely screaming something to the effect of 'I'm gonna take the gun from you, and you ain't gonna like what happens then..."
You know inventing stuff like this is pretty ridiculous.
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Old 21st March 2021, 03:27 AM   #679
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Originally Posted by Scopedog View Post
Feel free to discount that source
I always discount extreme right wing outlets as sources, especially ones that have the rancid stench of Tucker Carlson anywhere near them!
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Old 21st March 2021, 05:45 AM   #680
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
You know inventing stuff like this is pretty ridiculous.
There are videos of the late Mr. Rosenbaum confronting and puffing his chest at some other armed militia men earlier in the evening -- "Shoot me, *****, shoot me right here!" -- so it is not a huge reach to 'invent' the scenario whereby Kyle is later accosted by this psycho-suicidal fellow (he was released from the hospital psychiatric ward after medical observation of his mental issues earlier that day).

Suburban Turkey calls it 'fiction' -- but that remains to be seen, in court.
Anyone can google the rich and violent history of Joshua Joseph Ziminski. He is an integral part of this case, whether you like it or not (along with his antifa freakshow female, Ashley Kreuger).

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