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Tags 2020 elections , donald trump , election conspiracies , Trump controversies , Trump supporters

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Old 6th January 2021, 05:30 PM   #3521
angrysoba
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Except that they didn't rush in to attempt to overturn the election. Yes, that is what they want in the end, but there is no mechanism to do such by invading the Capitol.
They invaded in an attempt to make their voices heard so that an investigation would be held and the election legally overturned. It doesn't make what they did right, or any less a violent insurrection, but it was not and can't be a coup because they had nor have no ability to overturn the election or to usurp the powers of the Government.
Relax! It's just an attempted coup! And of course there is no mechanism! That's what makes it illegal! And the illegality is what makes it an attempted coup. This is not so hard to understand!

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
1) The President is the head of the Executive Branch, they aren't the entire Executive Branch.
Constitution of the US says: "The executive Power shall be vested in a President of the United States of America."

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
They are not "The Government," they are a part of the Government.
I ******* know that! I told you that, remember. ******* look at this:

Quote:
There are three branches of government in the US: Legislative (that's Congress) Judiciary (The SCOTUS) and Executive (that is the presidency and Biden has been elected to that role).
Three ******* branches of government! See!

And look what you said instead:

Quote:
The legitimate legislative government of the US is congress
Wrong! As I pointed out to you, it is one branch of goverment. The Executive is another branch.

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
2) Biden is the President-Elect, not the President. The President-Elect will not a part of the Government until 12:00pm on the 20th Jan, 2021.
I know!!!!! I ******* told you that! Remember???!?!??

Quote:
There are three branches of government in the US: Legislative (that's Congress) Judiciary (The SCOTUS) and Executive (that is the presidency and Biden has been elected to that role).
This is the attempt to prevent a legitimate election and transfer of power. There is no way around this!
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Old 6th January 2021, 05:30 PM   #3522
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Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
Watching Beau of the Fifth Coloumn's livestream. He had a good point that the police opening the barricade might just have been withdrawing to another defense line farther back.
He's really good. One of my favorite Youtubers out there.
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Old 6th January 2021, 05:33 PM   #3523
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
You downplayed it when you referred to what happened as “merely stopping a government from doing its business” as if a few Trump supporters were in the back the Senate Chamber with air horns.

Right wing terrorists stormed the U.S. Capitol. Police were attacked. Guns were drawn. Shots were fired. Elected officials had to be evacuated or barricaded themselves in their offices. The Capitol was occupied for several hours by a hostile force.

That’s a coup.
Relax! It is just an attempted coup.
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Old 6th January 2021, 05:33 PM   #3524
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
A coup - by the definition you provided - doesn’t require those carrying it out to assume the power of the government, only to seize it.

The power of the government to conduct its business was seized by these right wing terrorists when they drove the government out and took control of the Capitol.
Invading Nancy Pelosi's office and sitting in her chair was surely akin to an intruder in the Queen's bedroom. A massive, massive security breach.
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Old 6th January 2021, 05:38 PM   #3525
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Legal definition of coup d'etat? Which legal definition are you using?
The Legal definition I refer to was "Treason" which was earlier in the thread. The claim of a coup d'etat is hyperbole.
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Old 6th January 2021, 05:40 PM   #3526
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Invading Nancy Pelosi's office and sitting in her chair was surely akin to an intruder in the Queen's bedroom. A massive, massive security breach.
As well as a hell of a nerve.
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Old 6th January 2021, 05:41 PM   #3527
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From Rebecca Solnit of the GUARDIAN 'Why I call it an attempted coup'

Quote:
I call it a coup attempt because, though I assume it will not prevent the Biden presidency, it certainly intended to, and is part of a campaign to delegitimize and thereby weaken the incoming administration. It was a long time coming, building up for years with white rage, especially white male rage fueled by everyone from Trump himself to the National Rifle Association, Fox News and the various rightwing pundits, the Republican party, the various faces of white supremacy, and the far-right groups such as the Proud Boys. It is a rage against the fact that other people might be equal under the law, that women and people of color might also govern as power begins to be distributed more equally, the same rage that attempted to delegitimize a black president with birtherism and obstruction. It is a rage against equality.

Democracy is a set of agreements to make decisions together and respect the outcome whether you like them or not. The kind of violence we saw on Capitol Hill is authoritarian, a way to try to force other people to submit to the will of the perpetrators. This violence comes from the white men who were long the only people with power in this country imagining themselves as marginalized and oppressed outsiders because others might also have power and a voice. We saw these kind of men last summer, when they invaded the Michigan capital while carrying semiautomatic rifles and saw them again when a handful of them were arrested for a plot to kidnap Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer. We saw them in racist shootings from the Texas border to a Pennsylvania synagogue.
GUARDIAN

Trump in his rally rant went out of his way to dog whistle 'Barrack Hussein Obama', Michelle, Oprah.

Calculated to incite emotions and to obstruct the Senate from assembling to certify the election results.
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Old 6th January 2021, 05:43 PM   #3528
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
You downplayed it when you referred to what happened as “merely stopping a government from doing its business” as if a few Trump supporters were in the back the Senate Chamber with air horns.
Rubbish, I have called it an insurrection from the start, including in the post you are referencing.

Quote:
Right wing terrorists stormed the U.S. Capitol. Police were attacked. Guns were drawn. Shots were fired. Elected officials had to be evacuated or barricaded themselves in their offices. The Capitol was occupied for several hours by a hostile force.
None of these things make this a coup.

Quote:
That’s a coup.
No, it's not, and the fact you think it shows you have never seen a real coup. Go talk to someone from Fiji or Thailand.
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Old 6th January 2021, 05:44 PM   #3529
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13 people arrested so far, according to Norwegian news.

Despite everything, I feel bad for them. They've been lied to and manipulated for four years to the point where they genuenly believed the election was stolen and the only way to save America was through force. Now they will likely go behind bars for a long, long time.

Don't get me wrong, this was a dark, dark day for the United States, and of course I want everyone who stormed Congress that day to be prosecuted and serve time. It's just that it's just as much a sad demonstration of how they live in their own parallel universe. Storming congress is something I'd expect to see discussed on some nutty conspiracy theorist web site - the kind inhabited by the "I just came back from the courthouse, it's closed on Saturdays" types we make fun of here, when we don't worry about what they might actually get up. It's not something you expect hundreds (at least) of people to actually do.

Then again, Trump's regime has been four years of "I didn't think this could actually happen", so I suppose an attempted coup by selfie-happy gravy seals is just par for the course.
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Old 6th January 2021, 05:45 PM   #3530
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It's not a real coup attempt unless it succeeds, eh?
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1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it.
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Old 6th January 2021, 05:47 PM   #3531
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Rubbish, I have called it an insurrection from the start, including in the post you are referencing.







None of these things make this a coup.







No, it's not, and the fact you think it shows you have never seen a real coup. Go talk to someone from Fiji or Thailand.
Two different coups might look very different and yet both be coups.
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Old 6th January 2021, 05:50 PM   #3532
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Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
13 people arrested so far, according to Norwegian news.

Despite everything, I feel bad for them. They've been lied to and manipulated for four years to the point where they genuenly believed the election was stolen and the only way to save America was through force. Now they will likely go behind bars for a long, long time.

Don't get me wrong, this was a dark, dark day for the United States, and of course I want everyone who stormed Congress that day to be prosecuted and serve time. It's just that it's just as much a sad demonstration of how they live in their own parallel universe. Storming congress is something I'd expect to see discussed on some nutty conspiracy theorist web site - the kind inhabited by the "I just came back from the courthouse, it's closed on Saturdays" types we make fun of here, when we don't worry about what they might actually get up. It's not something you expect hundreds (at least) of people to actually do.

Then again, Trump's regime has been four years of "I didn't think this could actually happen", so I suppose an attempted coup by selfie-happy gravy seals is just par for the course.
Counter point: Nazi regalia.
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Old 6th January 2021, 05:51 PM   #3533
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
What powers of the Government did they seize during that time? Do you really believe that merely being in the chamber allows them to conduct themselves with the powers of the Government?
Weak semantic gamesmanship. There is an attempted coup under way, led by Dear Leader.

Not every actor demonstrates every defining behavior. That obvious fact alone renders your last few posts as absurdities.

If you and other posters chose different words to describe these events, fine, whatever. But expending effort to argue against coup is flat out weird.
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Old 6th January 2021, 05:52 PM   #3534
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Relax! It's just an attempted coup! And of course there is no mechanism! That's what makes it illegal! And the illegality is what makes it an attempted coup. This is not so hard to understand!
There is no mechanism, legal or illegal, full stop. A small number of insurrectionist rioters storming the chamber and forcing Congress to suspend is not and can not be a coup, ever. You are getting upset and wound up for being called on using hyperbole, calm down, and be a skeptic of your own argument.

Quote:
Constitution of the US says: "The executive Power shall be vested in a President of the United States of America."
Yes, he's the head of the Executive branch, he is not the US Government

Quote:
I ******* know that! I told you that, remember. ******* look at this:
You need to chill. You seem to believe I needed you to tell me things I already knew.

Quote:
Three ******* branches of government! See!

And look what you said instead:
Yes, do reread what I said, you seem to be missing a rather important word which shows that I was making the same argument that you are now screaming about.

Quote:
Wrong! As I pointed out to you, it is one branch of goverment. The Executive is another branch.
You really need to read what I wrote and not what you like to think I wrote.

Quote:
I know!!!!! I ******* told you that! Remember???!?!??
Again, you seem to believe that I needed you to tell me, and if you agree, then why argue as if you believe he is now President.

Quote:
This is the attempt to prevent a legitimate election and transfer of power. There is no way around this!
Which still doesn't make it a coup, or even an attempted one.
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Old 6th January 2021, 05:52 PM   #3535
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Old 6th January 2021, 05:53 PM   #3536
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Rubbish, I have called it an insurrection from the start, including in the post you are referencing.



None of these things make this a coup.



No, it's not, and the fact you think it shows you have never seen a real coup. Go talk to someone from Fiji or Thailand.

Did you manage to read up on Hilter's Beer Hall Putsch? That's how things start.

First you get the 'protestors' to storm the lawmaker's government chambers and prevent them from carrying out their services by the will of the people, by force and public disorder.

Next you stir up a civil war. You try to control the press. Trump wants to ban twitter from censoring him. His supporters today wilfully smashed up the photographic equipment of the mainstream press. Equipment that likely cost $'000's. Wanton vandalism.

All authorised by the outgoing President and the culprits given his blessing and called true Patriots.

So. What happens next? If there is a civil war with with anti-fa rising up against MAGA, looting rioting, some cops and some of the army pledging support for Trump and defecting to his side instead of the state? Civil wars are very very bloody. But they always start with civil disobedience and a charismatic leader. Watching Trump ranting away, it struck me he knows how to hypnotise his audience and plant suggestions in their head. And he cynically knows what he is doing.
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Old 6th January 2021, 05:54 PM   #3537
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
It's not a real coup attempt unless it succeeds, eh?
Otherwise it is just a sparkling Putsch.
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Old 6th January 2021, 05:59 PM   #3538
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Yes, he's the head of the Executive branch, he is not the US Government
Who said he was? Not me. I corrected you about what you said.

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Again, you seem to believe that I needed you to tell me, and if you agree, then why argue as if you believe he is now President.
I didn't say he was. I said he was elected president.
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Old 6th January 2021, 05:59 PM   #3539
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Rubbish, I have called it an insurrection from the start, including in the post you are referencing.
I directly quoted you downplaying it. That you might not have done it in another post doesn’t change that.

Quote:
None of these things make this a coup.
They do, actually. You even provided the definition as reference.

Quote:
No, it's not, and the fact you think it shows you have never seen a real coup. Go talk to someone from Fiji or Thailand.
Oh right, because differing degrees of severity automatically make them two different things.
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Old 6th January 2021, 05:59 PM   #3540
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Two different coups might look very different and yet both be coups.
Regardless of how they look, they all have one thing in common. Those conducting the coup attempt to place their own government into place, usurping the legitimate Government's power.

That did not happen today, it wasn't even attempted.

What did happen was that insurrectionists attempted and succeeding in disrupting the Government's business through violent actions.

That's bad, really bad. And yes their end goal is to have the election overturned, which is also bad. But the action was not to the level of a coup. Call it a riot, a rebellion, an insurrection, even sedition. All of those are fine and likely fit.

What it wasn't was an attempt to seize and replace the legitimate US Government, and saying it was is Hyperbole.
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Old 6th January 2021, 06:01 PM   #3541
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"There are armed rioters storming the Capitol, now is time for me to tone police the exact wording because that's what's important and make 'What?' face when people think I have an ulterior motive."

*Makes jack off motion*
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Old 6th January 2021, 06:01 PM   #3542
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post

What it wasn't was an attempt to seize and replace the legitimate US Government, and saying it was is Hyperbole.
Right, just replace the elected president with an unelected one....
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Old 6th January 2021, 06:05 PM   #3543
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Regardless of how they look, they all have one thing in common. Those conducting the coup attempt to place their own government into place, usurping the legitimate Government's power.
Not a requirement of a coup, according to the definition that you provided.

Last edited by johnny karate; 6th January 2021 at 06:07 PM.
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Old 6th January 2021, 06:08 PM   #3544
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
I directly quoted you downplaying it. That you might not have done it in another post doesn’t change that.
In the same post you quoted that one you quoted me saying it was an insurrection.

Quote:
They do, actually. You even provided the definition as reference.
No, they don't. A coup might include those things, but those things do not make a coup or even an attempted one.

Quote:
Oh right, because differing degrees of severity automatically make them two different things.
Again you show your ignorance. Several of the coups in both Fiji and Thailand occurred with fewer deaths and less violence than occurred in DC today. It has nothing to do with severity, it has to do with the intent of the offenders. For a coup to happen, those committing it to need to be planning to overthrow the legitimate Government. Disrupting the Government to stop an election count is not overthrowing the Government in any way shape or form.
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Old 6th January 2021, 06:13 PM   #3545
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Not a requirement of a coup, according to the definition that you provided.
Seriously what? You are making less and less sense here.

How is "plac(ing) their own government into place, usurping the legitimate Government's power." not the same as "illegal seizure of power from a government"?

How else can you seize power from a government other than replacing that legitimate government with your own?
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Old 6th January 2021, 06:16 PM   #3546
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
In the same post you quoted that one you quoted me saying it was an insurrection.
Cool. You still downplayed it and I quoted you doing it.

Quote:
No, they don't. A coup might include those things, but those things do not make a coup or even an attempted one.
You provided the definition and those things meet that definition.

Quote:
Again you show your ignorance. Several of the coups in both Fiji and Thailand occurred with fewer deaths and less violence than occurred in DC today. It has nothing to do with severity, it has to do with the intent of the offenders. For a coup to happen, those committing it to need to be planning to overthrow the legitimate Government. Disrupting the Government to stop an election count is not overthrowing the Government in any way shape or form.
You contradict the definition that you provided. “Overthrowing the government” is not a requirement of a coup. Again, your definition.
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Old 6th January 2021, 06:20 PM   #3547
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Seriously what? You are making less and less sense here.

How is "plac(ing) their own government into place, usurping the legitimate Government's power." not the same as "illegal seizure of power from a government"?

How else can you seize power from a government other than replacing that legitimate government with your own?
By storming the Capitol and driving out the existing government, which is what happened.

There is nothing in either the definition of “coup” or “seize” that requires a replacement.
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Old 6th January 2021, 06:20 PM   #3548
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
Ivanka Trump Tweeted:

American Patriots - any security breach or disrespect to our law enforcement is unacceptable.
The violence must stop immediately. Please be peaceful.


She then deleted the Tweet.
Didn't she also delete a tweet calling the rioters "beautiful people"?
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Old 6th January 2021, 06:25 PM   #3549
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Originally Posted by people
coup
Despite everything, doesn't a coup have to be successful in order to be a coup? You know, the same way someone has to actually die for a murder to be a murder, and otherwise it's just a murder attempt?

As for my two cents on terminology/pedantics - I suppose we have to wait for more details on their intentions before I can call it anything specific - if the intent was a terrorist act, coup attempt, or violent protest or show of force.

I've got little doubt it varies from person to person. Some no doubt showed up with an intent to bring down the government. Some might have been looking for political enemies to hurt. Some might be random protesters who showed up as the mob overran the barricades and then just went along for the ride. They certainly didn't act like a conquering army, more like tourists on a guided tour, or frat kids at a college party.

Then again, I suppose revolutionaries storming the palace in some banana replublic might act the exactly same way - posing on the throne, vandalizing offices, putting up their sides' banners and so on. So what do I know.
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Old 6th January 2021, 06:26 PM   #3550
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
As there is ALWAYS a relevant Tweet:

Trump tweeted on the 27th July:

"Anarchists, Agitators or Protestors who vandalize or damage our Federal Courthouse in Portland, or any Federal Buildings in any of our Cities or States, will be prosecuted under our recently re-enacted Statues & Monuments Act. MINIMUM TEN YEARS IN PRISON. Don’t do it!"
What's the over/under on total TEN YEAR prison sentences handed out?
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Old 6th January 2021, 06:27 PM   #3551
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
By storming the Capitol and driving out the existing government, which is what happened.

There is nothing in either the definition of “coup” or “seize” that requires a replacement.
Are you even serious right now?
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Old 6th January 2021, 06:28 PM   #3552
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
Didn't she also delete a tweet calling the rioters "beautiful people"?
If you had any doubt that this Trump was any less "complicit" than the others.
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Old 6th January 2021, 06:30 PM   #3553
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
It is only a coup when it is the military doing it, otherwise it is just the new normal.
Trump's heroes believe they are the real US military.
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Old 6th January 2021, 06:31 PM   #3554
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Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
Despite everything, doesn't a coup have to be successful in order to be a coup? You know, the same way someone has to actually die for a murder to be a murder, and otherwise it's just a murder attempt?
It was successful. Right wing terrorists occupied the U.S. Capitol for several hours. Just because they didn’t hold onto it doesn’t change that fact, and is not a requirement to meet the definition of “coup”.
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Old 6th January 2021, 06:35 PM   #3555
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Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
Are you even serious right now?
Yes. There seems to be this misapprehension that a coup needs to have long-term success to be a coup. It doesn’t.
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Old 6th January 2021, 06:35 PM   #3556
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
Yeah, Trump is loving this. It's like one of his rallies turned up to eleven.
More like six, I'm afraid.
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Old 6th January 2021, 06:36 PM   #3557
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
We've had the Velvet Revolution, the Arab Spring, Cultural Revolution, Orange Revolution...
Well, since the last one is already taken...

The Coup de Tweet?
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Old 6th January 2021, 06:37 PM   #3558
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A coup does not need to successful to be called a coup.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991...9;état_attempt
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Old 6th January 2021, 06:37 PM   #3559
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
More like six, I'm afraid.
Like one of his rallies turned up to six?
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Old 6th January 2021, 06:39 PM   #3560
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Relax! It’s just an attempted coup!
Pretend attempted coup. Make believe.
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