Trump's Coup d'état. - Page 90

Safe-Keeper · 6th January 2021, 06:43 PM

Originally Posted by kookbreaker

A coup does not need to successful to be called a coup.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991...9;état_attempt

You linked to an article on a coup attempt. Where in this article does it say a coup doesn't have to be successful to be a coup?

Darat · 6th January 2021, 06:43 PM

Originally Posted by johnny karate

Yes. There seems to be this misapprehension that a coup needs to have long-term success to be a coup. It doesn’t.

Or it has to be well planned and well organised or make any sense at all.

This group wanted to install Trump as President when he was not reelected, it’s a classic coup attempt.

trustbutverify · 6th January 2021, 06:45 PM

Originally Posted by pgwenthold

Reportedly there were multiple confederate flags and even a swastika

Only one?

Safe-Keeper · 6th January 2021, 06:47 PM

Originally Posted by pgwenthold

Reportedly there were multiple confederate flags and even a swastika

Red hats and other Trumpist symbols is equal to a swastika at this point.

PhantomWolf · 6th January 2021, 06:48 PM

Originally Posted by johnny karate

Yes. There seems to be this misapprehension that a coup needs to have long-term success to be a coup. It doesn’t.

You do understand that "replacement" can be a temporary thing, right?

The only one thinking that anyone thinks that "a coup needs to have long-term success to be a coup" is you. The requirement of a coup being a coup is that an illegitimate group take (seize) the power of a legitimate government, thus replacing them in the wielding of that power for a period of time. That period can be ten minutes or ten years, success is irrelevant, it is the intent to take that power from the Government through their actions that determines if a coup is a coup.

It's not violence, coups can be totally non-violent, it's not taking over the Government Buildings, coups can occur without taking over any building, and it's not making the Government go into protective lockdown, it is in the trying to replace those members and wield the powers of government for yourself. What we saw today was not that, it was a bunch of insurrectionists hanging out in the chamber for a few hours. They never tried to take the Government's power. They acted to shut down the Government and give voice to what they think is a serious issue. The terrorists did not seat their own congress and vote on the election certificates themselves trying to claim the power. They smashed things up and acted like a bunch of thugs. That's not a Coup, and never will be.

TragicMonkey · 6th January 2021, 06:48 PM

Originally Posted by trustbutverify

Only one?

I guess we can't count tattoos if they're hidden by clothing. But I think it's pretty likely there were at least a few.

kookbreaker · 6th January 2021, 06:51 PM

Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper

You linked to an article on a coup attempt. Where in this article does it say a coup doesn't have to be successful to be a coup?

Sorry, I meant to quote the person who was saying a coup had to be successful.

Elagabalus · 6th January 2021, 06:51 PM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

"There are armed rioters storming the Capitol, now is time for me to tone police the exact wording because that's what's important and make 'What?' face when people think I have an ulterior motive."

*Makes jack off motion*

Thank you! Otherwise I was going to make a jack off motion.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going back over to the OANN comment section where I don't have to deal with silly ivory tower bickering.

Resume · 6th January 2021, 06:51 PM

Originally Posted by trustbutverify

Only one?

Seems low.

trustbutverify · 6th January 2021, 06:53 PM

Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper

Unbelievable. All of it. That's all I have to say.

Wait until these maggots find a real leader to worship.

johnny karate · 6th January 2021, 06:55 PM

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf

You do understand that "replacement" can be a temporary thing, right?

The only one thinking that anyone thinks that "a coup needs to have long-term success to be a coup" is you. The requirement of a coup being a coup is that an illegitimate group take (seize) the power of a legitimate government, thus replacing them in the wielding of that power for a period of time. That period can be ten minutes or ten years, success is irrelevant, it is the intent to take that power from the Government through their actions that determines if a coup is a coup.

It's not violence, coups can be totally non-violent, it's not taking over the Government Buildings, coups can occur without taking over any building, and it's not making the Government go into protective lockdown, it is in the trying to replace those members and wield the powers of government for yourself. What we saw today was not that, it was a bunch of insurrectionists hanging out in the chamber for a few hours. They never tried to take the Government's power. They acted to shut down the Government and give voice to what they think is a serious issue. The terrorists did not seat their own congress and vote on the election certificates themselves trying to claim the power. They smashed things up and acted like a bunch of thugs. That's not a Coup, and never will be.

I highlighted the part that is incorrect and stopped reading after that. The definition of “coup” that you provided does not require that.

PhantomWolf · 6th January 2021, 06:55 PM

Originally Posted by Darat

Or it has to be well planned and well organised or make any sense at all.

This group wanted to install Trump as President when he was not reelected, it’s a classic coup attempt.

This isn't quite right.

The group believes that Trump is the legitimate President-Elect because he actually won the election and that if people were willing to listen to them and investigate then the corruption that flipped the election illegally to Bifen would be exposed and Trump would be declared the winner.

Of course, their beliefs are a lot of BS created and feed to them by the likes of Guliani and co through OAN and Beibreit, but just because those beliefs are a bunch of conspiracies and lies doesn't mean that they don't believe them wholeheartedly.

Getting people to investigate and install the "real" winner, is not trying to commit a coup. It might be a coup if they believed that Trump lost but still wanted to install him into power, and actually took actions that would directly further that.

PhantomWolf · 6th January 2021, 06:56 PM

Originally Posted by johnny karate

I highlighted the part that is incorrect and stopped reading after that. The definition of “coup” that you provided does not require that.

seriously, what part of "seize power" do you not understand?

angrysoba · 6th January 2021, 06:58 PM

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf

This isn't quite right.

The group believes that Trump is the legitimate President-Elect because he actually won the election and that if people were willing to listen to them and investigate then the corruption that flipped the election illegally to Bifen would be exposed and Trump would be declared the winner.

Of course, their beliefs are a lot of BS created and feed to them by the likes of Guliani and co through OAN and Beibreit, but just because those beliefs are a bunch of conspiracies and lies doesn't mean that they don't believe them wholeheartedly.

Getting people to investigate and install the "real" winner, is not trying to commit a coup. It might be a coup if they believed that Trump lost but still wanted to install him into power, and actually took actions that would directly further that.

Glad that you looked into their souls and found the pure motives lying within.

The only difference between you and me in our view of this is that you think this was a good faith move by these ****-wits.

uke2se · 6th January 2021, 07:00 PM

A stochastic coup?

Skeptic Ginger · 6th January 2021, 07:01 PM

[stops in, sees futile debate about coup or not coup has continued for pages]

But but, I must be believed!!!!

[steps back out of thread]

cosmicaug · 6th January 2021, 07:08 PM

Originally Posted by trustbutverify

Pretend attempted coup. Make believe.

Imaginary coup. If you square it's a negative coup you get to undo a real coup.

PhantomWolf · 6th January 2021, 07:10 PM

Originally Posted by angrysoba

Glad that you looked into their souls and found the pure motives lying within.

Actually, I think that they are fools that have been sucked into the vortex of an alternative world created by right-wing politicians and an even worse alt-right media.

Quote:

The only difference between you and me in our view of this is that you think this was a good faith move by these ****-wits.

Yes, I think they really believe the lies of Trump and co, just like I think that the 9/11 Hijackers believed that they were doing the right thing by their screwed up ideaology.

Just because someone has a warped and dangerous ideology that -you- can see is warped and dangerous, doesn't mean that those locked into that warped and dangerous ideology can see it the same way you do and that they don't genuinely believe that warped and dangerous ideology. In fact, that is what makes them so dangerous, as we have seen time and time again with terrorists of all kinds, including those today. When you believe a warped and dangerous ideology you are willing to take dangerous and warped actions to support it.

These people truly believe that Trump really won the election in a landslide victory and that millions of fraudulent votes have been created to steal that from victory him. In their minds, Trump is the legitimate President-Elect because he won and the Democrats then stole the election via fraud.

Yeah, they are dead wrong in their belief, but their belief in it is exactly what makes them very, very dangerous, just as we saw today, just as we saw on 9/11.

johnny karate · 6th January 2021, 07:12 PM

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf

seriously, what part of "seize power" do you not understand?

I understand all of it. Especially the part where “seize” doesn’t mean “replace”.

trustbutverify · 6th January 2021, 07:15 PM

Originally Posted by Minoosh

OK, how 'bout we downgrade that to "can appear not to be a total ******* when he tries really hard"?

Lemme think about it.

PhantomWolf · 6th January 2021, 07:15 PM

Originally Posted by johnny karate

I understand all of it. Especially the part where “seize” doesn’t mean “replace”.

How can you seize the power of a government without becoming the new government?

johnny karate · 6th January 2021, 07:18 PM

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf

This isn't quite right.

The group believes that Trump is the legitimate President-Elect because he actually won the election and that if people were willing to listen to them and investigate then the corruption that flipped the election illegally to Bifen would be exposed and Trump would be declared the winner.

Of course, their beliefs are a lot of BS created and feed to them by the likes of Guliani and co through OAN and Beibreit, but just because those beliefs are a bunch of conspiracies and lies doesn't mean that they don't believe them wholeheartedly.

Getting people to investigate and install the "real" winner, is not trying to commit a coup. It might be a coup if they believed that Trump lost but still wanted to install him into power, and actually took actions that would directly further that.

Yeah, this is patently ridiculous. I’m pretty sure everyone who ever carried out a coup sincerely believe they were in the right. That doesn’t therefore make it not a coup.

trustbutverify · 6th January 2021, 07:19 PM

Originally Posted by varwoche

It's being reported that Twitter locked Trump 's account.

That wasn't twitter; I locked him out. Had to be done.

acbytesla · 6th January 2021, 07:23 PM

Here's the thing. Trump has been attempting a coup since before the election. But as his former fixer has said when Trump wants his associates to break a law, he never tells them explicitly. He uses mob speak. This is no different.

Those morons that stormed the Capitol today weren't attempting a coup. Trump was inviting them to in some desperate hope that the chaos would keep him in power. Those idiots didn't have a clue what they were doing. And neither does Trump.

Delphic Oracle · 6th January 2021, 07:23 PM

I've ingested about an hour back and forth between chambers.

Mitt Romney was blunt, forceful, and eloquent.

Regnad Kcin · 6th January 2021, 07:24 PM

Originally Posted by cosmicaug

Imaginary coup. If you square it's a negative coup you get to undo a real coup.

“Coup coup ga joob.” - John Lenin

johnny karate · 6th January 2021, 07:24 PM

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf

How can you seize the power of a government without becoming the new government?

By taking control of the Capitol and preventing that government from exercising their power. For the several hours that right wing terrorists occupied the seat of the government after driving the government out, they took power away from the government.

PhantomWolf · 6th January 2021, 07:25 PM

Originally Posted by johnny karate

Yeah, this is patently ridiculous. I’m pretty sure everyone who ever carried out a coup sincerely believe they were in the right. That doesn’t therefore make it not a coup.

I swear, do you go out of your way to not understand things? It has zero to do with other coups, it has to do with the fact another poster claimed that it was a coup because these people wanted to install Trump as President when he lost the Election. I am pointed out that no, they are trying to keep Trump as president because they believe he won the election. It has zero to anyone believing that they are in right, it has to do with if they believe that Trump is the legitimate winner of the election.

Delphic Oracle · 6th January 2021, 07:29 PM

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf

How can you seize the power of a government without becoming the new government?

There's a reason one of the most clearly laid out processes a government tries to get right is: succession/transfer of power.

A fumble at those moments allow any number of scenarios.

Anything is better than "limbo" which is what occupation of the seat of government means.

Sure, the body can meet in a bunker in Montana, but the occupation is a signal of intent to usurp, or at least depose.

gregthehammer · 6th January 2021, 07:29 PM

Have we passed peak trump yet?

PhantomWolf · 6th January 2021, 07:30 PM

Originally Posted by johnny karate

By taking control of the Capitol and preventing that government from exercising their power. For the several hours that right wing terrorists occupied the seat of the government after driving the government out, they took power away from the government.

Preventing someone from using power is not seizing it. Seizing requires the taking possession of the thing being seized. Preventing the Government from being seated is not seizing their power in any form.

Originally Posted by collins

seize (siz)

v. seized, seiz•ing. v.t.
1. to take hold of suddenly or forcibly; grasp: to seize a weapon.
2. to grasp mentally; understand clearly and completely: to seize an idea.
3. to take possession or control of as if by suddenly laying hold: Panic seized the crowd.
4. to take possession of by legal authority; confiscate.
5. to capture; take into custody.

PhantomWolf · 6th January 2021, 07:31 PM

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle

There's a reason one of the most clearly laid out processes a government tries to get right is: succession/transfer of power.

A fumble at those moments allow any number of scenarios.

Kind of irrelevant to the discussion.

Silly Green Monkey · 6th January 2021, 07:32 PM

Driving the Government from a sitting session sure is 'taking hold of suddenly or forcibly', as well as mentally.... The riots seized the Capitol in a grip of terror.

Also the zip-ties they were carrying indicates a desire to capture and take into custody any congresscritter they found. Some items were also taken possession of, like that podium some nutter was pictured carrying.

TragicMonkey · 6th January 2021, 07:35 PM

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle

I've ingested about an hour back and forth between chambers.

Mitt Romney was blunt, forceful, and eloquent.

He has whole binders of bluntness, forcefulness, and eloquence!

PhantomWolf · 6th January 2021, 07:37 PM

Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey

Driving the Government from a sitting session sure is 'taking hold of suddenly or forcibly', as well as mentally.... The riots seized the Capitol in a grip of terror.

Also the zip-ties they were carrying indicates a desire to capture and take into custody any congresscritter they found. Some items were also taken possession of, like that podium some nutter was pictured carrying.

None of those things are the Powers of the Government.

Silly Green Monkey · 6th January 2021, 07:38 PM

Congress in session is absolutely a Power of the Government.

PhantomWolf · 6th January 2021, 07:43 PM

Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey

Congress in session is absolutely a Power of the Government.

Unless you plan to argue that the insurrectionist terrorists sat their own session of congress, then they didn't take possession of it, they suspended it.

This was an "act of open revolt against a constituted government" rather than an attempt "to seize the powers of a government." It was an insurrection, not a coup.

Minoosh · 6th January 2021, 07:45 PM

What difference does it make if this is called a coup or not?

Delphic Oracle · 6th January 2021, 07:46 PM

Hawley seems to be indicating he will "put his name on paper" again tonight.

That means another 2 hour debate.

Theoretically he may do it for the 6 battleground states.

Silly Green Monkey · 6th January 2021, 07:46 PM

And their goal of halting the Powers of the Government from transferring those powers to the democratically elected President from their candidate, who they were convinced actually won? That's not a 'seizing'? Remember that failing in a goal does not mean the goal didn't exist.

6th January 2021, 06:43 PM	#3561
Safe-Keeper Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Norway Posts: 10,396	Originally Posted by kookbreaker A coup does not need to successful to be called a coup. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991...9;état_attempt You linked to an article on a coup attempt. Where in this article does it say a coup doesn't have to be successful to be a coup?
	__________________ "He's like a drunk being given a sobriety test by the police after being pulled over. Just as a drunk can't walk a straight line, Trump can't think in a straight line. He's all over the place."--Stacyhs "If you are still hung up on that whole words-have-meaning thing, then 2020 is going to be a long year for you." --Ladewig

6th January 2021, 06:43 PM	#3562
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 97,800	Originally Posted by johnny karate Yes. There seems to be this misapprehension that a coup needs to have long-term success to be a coup. It doesn’t. Or it has to be well planned and well organised or make any sense at all. This group wanted to install Trump as President when he was not reelected, it’s a classic coup attempt.
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

6th January 2021, 06:45 PM	#3563
trustbutverify Philosopher Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 8,895	Originally Posted by pgwenthold Reportedly there were multiple confederate flags and even a swastika Only one?
	__________________ "To me, Hitler is the greatest man who ever lived. He truly is without fault, so simple and at the same time possessed of masculine strength" -Leni Riefenstahl Wollen owns the stage

6th January 2021, 06:47 PM	#3564
Safe-Keeper Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Norway Posts: 10,396	Originally Posted by pgwenthold Reportedly there were multiple confederate flags and even a swastika Red hats and other Trumpist symbols is equal to a swastika at this point.
	__________________ "He's like a drunk being given a sobriety test by the police after being pulled over. Just as a drunk can't walk a straight line, Trump can't think in a straight line. He's all over the place."--Stacyhs "If you are still hung up on that whole words-have-meaning thing, then 2020 is going to be a long year for you." --Ladewig

6th January 2021, 06:48 PM	#3565
PhantomWolf Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 20,392	Originally Posted by johnny karate Yes. There seems to be this misapprehension that a coup needs to have long-term success to be a coup. It doesn’t. You do understand that "replacement" can be a temporary thing, right? The only one thinking that anyone thinks that "a coup needs to have long-term success to be a coup" is you. The requirement of a coup being a coup is that an illegitimate group take (seize) the power of a legitimate government, thus replacing them in the wielding of that power for a period of time. That period can be ten minutes or ten years, success is irrelevant, it is the intent to take that power from the Government through their actions that determines if a coup is a coup. It's not violence, coups can be totally non-violent, it's not taking over the Government Buildings, coups can occur without taking over any building, and it's not making the Government go into protective lockdown, it is in the trying to replace those members and wield the powers of government for yourself. What we saw today was not that, it was a bunch of insurrectionists hanging out in the chamber for a few hours. They never tried to take the Government's power. They acted to shut down the Government and give voice to what they think is a serious issue. The terrorists did not seat their own congress and vote on the election certificates themselves trying to claim the power. They smashed things up and acted like a bunch of thugs. That's not a Coup, and never will be.
	__________________ It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)

6th January 2021, 06:48 PM	#3566
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 59,733	Originally Posted by trustbutverify Only one? I guess we can't count tattoos if they're hidden by clothing. But I think it's pretty likely there were at least a few.
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

6th January 2021, 06:51 PM	#3567
kookbreaker Evil Fokker Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 13,246	Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper You linked to an article on a coup attempt. Where in this article does it say a coup doesn't have to be successful to be a coup? Sorry, I meant to quote the person who was saying a coup had to be successful.
	__________________ www.spectrum-scientifics.com <- My store of science toys, instruments and general fun! Thanks for helping me win Best Toys in Philly Voter in 2011,2012, and 2014! We won' be discussing the disappointment that was 2013.

6th January 2021, 06:51 PM	#3568
Elagabalus Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 7,011	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue "There are armed rioters storming the Capitol, now is time for me to tone police the exact wording because that's what's important and make 'What?' face when people think I have an ulterior motive." Makes jack off motion Thank you! Otherwise I was going to make a jack off motion. Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going back over to the OANN comment section where I don't have to deal with silly ivory tower bickering.
Elagabalus Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 7,011

6th January 2021, 06:51 PM	#3569
Resume Troublesome Passenger Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 19,070	Originally Posted by trustbutverify Only one? Seems low.

6th January 2021, 06:53 PM	#3570
trustbutverify Philosopher Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 8,895	Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper Unbelievable. All of it. That's all I have to say. Wait until these maggots find a real leader to worship.
	__________________ "To me, Hitler is the greatest man who ever lived. He truly is without fault, so simple and at the same time possessed of masculine strength" -Leni Riefenstahl Wollen owns the stage

6th January 2021, 06:55 PM	#3571
johnny karate ... and your little dog too. Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 14,652	Originally Posted by PhantomWolf You do understand that "replacement" can be a temporary thing, right? The only one thinking that anyone thinks that "a coup needs to have long-term success to be a coup" is you. The requirement of a coup being a coup is that an illegitimate group take (seize) the power of a legitimate government, thus replacing them in the wielding of that power for a period of time. That period can be ten minutes or ten years, success is irrelevant, it is the intent to take that power from the Government through their actions that determines if a coup is a coup. It's not violence, coups can be totally non-violent, it's not taking over the Government Buildings, coups can occur without taking over any building, and it's not making the Government go into protective lockdown, it is in the trying to replace those members and wield the powers of government for yourself. What we saw today was not that, it was a bunch of insurrectionists hanging out in the chamber for a few hours. They never tried to take the Government's power. They acted to shut down the Government and give voice to what they think is a serious issue. The terrorists did not seat their own congress and vote on the election certificates themselves trying to claim the power. They smashed things up and acted like a bunch of thugs. That's not a Coup, and never will be. I highlighted the part that is incorrect and stopped reading after that. The definition of “coup” that you provided does not require that.

6th January 2021, 06:55 PM	#3572
PhantomWolf Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 20,392	Originally Posted by Darat Or it has to be well planned and well organised or make any sense at all. This group wanted to install Trump as President when he was not reelected, it’s a classic coup attempt. This isn't quite right. The group believes that Trump is the legitimate President-Elect because he actually won the election and that if people were willing to listen to them and investigate then the corruption that flipped the election illegally to Bifen would be exposed and Trump would be declared the winner. Of course, their beliefs are a lot of BS created and feed to them by the likes of Guliani and co through OAN and Beibreit, but just because those beliefs are a bunch of conspiracies and lies doesn't mean that they don't believe them wholeheartedly. Getting people to investigate and install the "real" winner, is not trying to commit a coup. It might be a coup if they believed that Trump lost but still wanted to install him into power, and actually took actions that would directly further that.
	__________________ It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)

6th January 2021, 06:56 PM	#3573
PhantomWolf Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 20,392	Originally Posted by johnny karate I highlighted the part that is incorrect and stopped reading after that. The definition of “coup” that you provided does not require that. seriously, what part of "seize power" do you not understand?
	__________________ It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)

6th January 2021, 06:58 PM	#3574
angrysoba Philosophile Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 29,606	Originally Posted by PhantomWolf This isn't quite right. The group believes that Trump is the legitimate President-Elect because he actually won the election and that if people were willing to listen to them and investigate then the corruption that flipped the election illegally to Bifen would be exposed and Trump would be declared the winner. Of course, their beliefs are a lot of BS created and feed to them by the likes of Guliani and co through OAN and Beibreit, but just because those beliefs are a bunch of conspiracies and lies doesn't mean that they don't believe them wholeheartedly. Getting people to investigate and install the "real" winner, is not trying to commit a coup. It might be a coup if they believed that Trump lost but still wanted to install him into power, and actually took actions that would directly further that. Glad that you looked into their souls and found the pure motives lying within. The only difference between you and me in our view of this is that you think this was a good faith move by these ****-wits.
	__________________ "The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before." "Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)

6th January 2021, 07:00 PM	#3575
uke2se Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 14,181	A stochastic coup?
	__________________ Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1

6th January 2021, 07:01 PM	#3576
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 87,819	[stops in, sees futile debate about coup or not coup has continued for pages] But but, I must be believed!!!! [steps back out of thread]

6th January 2021, 07:08 PM	#3577
cosmicaug Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 1,465	Originally Posted by trustbutverify Pretend attempted coup. Make believe. Imaginary coup. If you square it's a negative coup you get to undo a real coup.
	__________________ -- August Pamplona

6th January 2021, 07:10 PM	#3578
PhantomWolf Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 20,392	Originally Posted by angrysoba Glad that you looked into their souls and found the pure motives lying within. Actually, I think that they are fools that have been sucked into the vortex of an alternative world created by right-wing politicians and an even worse alt-right media. Quote: The only difference between you and me in our view of this is that you think this was a good faith move by these ****-wits. Yes, I think they really believe the lies of Trump and co, just like I think that the 9/11 Hijackers believed that they were doing the right thing by their screwed up ideaology. Just because someone has a warped and dangerous ideology that -you- can see is warped and dangerous, doesn't mean that those locked into that warped and dangerous ideology can see it the same way you do and that they don't genuinely believe that warped and dangerous ideology. In fact, that is what makes them so dangerous, as we have seen time and time again with terrorists of all kinds, including those today. When you believe a warped and dangerous ideology you are willing to take dangerous and warped actions to support it. These people truly believe that Trump really won the election in a landslide victory and that millions of fraudulent votes have been created to steal that from victory him. In their minds, Trump is the legitimate President-Elect because he won and the Democrats then stole the election via fraud. Yeah, they are dead wrong in their belief, but their belief in it is exactly what makes them very, very dangerous, just as we saw today, just as we saw on 9/11.
	__________________ It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)

6th January 2021, 07:12 PM	#3579
johnny karate ... and your little dog too. Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 14,652	Originally Posted by PhantomWolf seriously, what part of "seize power" do you not understand? I understand all of it. Especially the part where “seize” doesn’t mean “replace”.

6th January 2021, 07:15 PM	#3580
trustbutverify Philosopher Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 8,895	Originally Posted by Minoosh OK, how 'bout we downgrade that to "can appear not to be a total ******* when he tries really hard"? Lemme think about it.
	__________________ "To me, Hitler is the greatest man who ever lived. He truly is without fault, so simple and at the same time possessed of masculine strength" -Leni Riefenstahl Wollen owns the stage

6th January 2021, 07:15 PM	#3581
PhantomWolf Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 20,392	Originally Posted by johnny karate I understand all of it. Especially the part where “seize” doesn’t mean “replace”. How can you seize the power of a government without becoming the new government?
	__________________ It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)

6th January 2021, 07:18 PM	#3582
johnny karate ... and your little dog too. Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 14,652	Originally Posted by PhantomWolf This isn't quite right. The group believes that Trump is the legitimate President-Elect because he actually won the election and that if people were willing to listen to them and investigate then the corruption that flipped the election illegally to Bifen would be exposed and Trump would be declared the winner. Of course, their beliefs are a lot of BS created and feed to them by the likes of Guliani and co through OAN and Beibreit, but just because those beliefs are a bunch of conspiracies and lies doesn't mean that they don't believe them wholeheartedly. Getting people to investigate and install the "real" winner, is not trying to commit a coup. It might be a coup if they believed that Trump lost but still wanted to install him into power, and actually took actions that would directly further that. Yeah, this is patently ridiculous. I’m pretty sure everyone who ever carried out a coup sincerely believe they were in the right. That doesn’t therefore make it not a coup.

6th January 2021, 07:19 PM	#3583
trustbutverify Philosopher Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 8,895	Originally Posted by varwoche It's being reported that Twitter locked Trump 's account. That wasn't twitter; I locked him out. Had to be done.
	__________________ "To me, Hitler is the greatest man who ever lived. He truly is without fault, so simple and at the same time possessed of masculine strength" -Leni Riefenstahl Wollen owns the stage

6th January 2021, 07:23 PM	#3584
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 28,587	Here's the thing. Trump has been attempting a coup since before the election. But as his former fixer has said when Trump wants his associates to break a law, he never tells them explicitly. He uses mob speak. This is no different. Those morons that stormed the Capitol today weren't attempting a coup. Trump was inviting them to in some desperate hope that the chaos would keep him in power. Those idiots didn't have a clue what they were doing. And neither does Trump.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

6th January 2021, 07:23 PM	#3585
Delphic Oracle Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2016 Posts: 5,410	I've ingested about an hour back and forth between chambers. Mitt Romney was blunt, forceful, and eloquent.

6th January 2021, 07:24 PM	#3586
Regnad Kcin Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: New York Posts: 10,266	Originally Posted by cosmicaug Imaginary coup. If you square it's a negative coup you get to undo a real coup. “Coup coup ga joob.” - John Lenin
	__________________ My heros are Alex Zanardi and Evelyn Glennie.

6th January 2021, 07:24 PM	#3587
johnny karate ... and your little dog too. Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 14,652	Originally Posted by PhantomWolf How can you seize the power of a government without becoming the new government? By taking control of the Capitol and preventing that government from exercising their power. For the several hours that right wing terrorists occupied the seat of the government after driving the government out, they took power away from the government.

6th January 2021, 07:25 PM	#3588
PhantomWolf Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 20,392	Originally Posted by johnny karate Yeah, this is patently ridiculous. I’m pretty sure everyone who ever carried out a coup sincerely believe they were in the right. That doesn’t therefore make it not a coup. I swear, do you go out of your way to not understand things? It has zero to do with other coups, it has to do with the fact another poster claimed that it was a coup because these people wanted to install Trump as President when he lost the Election. I am pointed out that no, they are trying to keep Trump as president because they believe he won the election. It has zero to anyone believing that they are in right, it has to do with if they believe that Trump is the legitimate winner of the election.
	__________________ It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)

6th January 2021, 07:29 PM	#3589
Delphic Oracle Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2016 Posts: 5,410	Originally Posted by PhantomWolf How can you seize the power of a government without becoming the new government? There's a reason one of the most clearly laid out processes a government tries to get right is: succession/transfer of power. A fumble at those moments allow any number of scenarios. Anything is better than "limbo" which is what occupation of the seat of government means. Sure, the body can meet in a bunker in Montana, but the occupation is a signal of intent to usurp, or at least depose.
	Last edited by Delphic Oracle; 6th January 2021 at 07:32 PM.

6th January 2021, 07:29 PM	#3590
gregthehammer Muse Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 725	Have we passed peak trump yet?
gregthehammer Muse Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 725

6th January 2021, 07:30 PM	#3591
PhantomWolf Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 20,392	Originally Posted by johnny karate By taking control of the Capitol and preventing that government from exercising their power. For the several hours that right wing terrorists occupied the seat of the government after driving the government out, they took power away from the government. Preventing someone from using power is not seizing it. Seizing requires the taking possession of the thing being seized. Preventing the Government from being seated is not seizing their power in any form. Originally Posted by collins seize (siz) v. seized, seiz•ing. v.t. 1. to take hold of suddenly or forcibly; grasp: to seize a weapon. 2. to grasp mentally; understand clearly and completely: to seize an idea. 3. to take possession or control of as if by suddenly laying hold: Panic seized the crowd. 4. to take possession of by legal authority; confiscate. 5. to capture; take into custody.
	__________________ It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)

6th January 2021, 07:31 PM	#3592
PhantomWolf Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 20,392	Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle There's a reason one of the most clearly laid out processes a government tries to get right is: succession/transfer of power. A fumble at those moments allow any number of scenarios. Kind of irrelevant to the discussion.
	__________________ It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)

6th January 2021, 07:32 PM	#3593
Silly Green Monkey Cowardly Lurking in the Shadows of Greatness Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Arizona Posts: 5,248	Driving the Government from a sitting session sure is 'taking hold of suddenly or forcibly', as well as mentally.... The riots seized the Capitol in a grip of terror. Also the zip-ties they were carrying indicates a desire to capture and take into custody any congresscritter they found. Some items were also taken possession of, like that podium some nutter was pictured carrying.
	__________________ Normal is just a stereotype. Last edited by Silly Green Monkey; 6th January 2021 at 07:34 PM.

6th January 2021, 07:35 PM	#3594
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 59,733	Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle I've ingested about an hour back and forth between chambers. Mitt Romney was blunt, forceful, and eloquent. He has whole binders of bluntness, forcefulness, and eloquence!
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

6th January 2021, 07:37 PM	#3595
PhantomWolf Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 20,392	Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey Driving the Government from a sitting session sure is 'taking hold of suddenly or forcibly', as well as mentally.... The riots seized the Capitol in a grip of terror. Also the zip-ties they were carrying indicates a desire to capture and take into custody any congresscritter they found. Some items were also taken possession of, like that podium some nutter was pictured carrying. None of those things are the Powers of the Government.
	__________________ It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)