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Tags 2020 elections , donald trump , election conspiracies , Trump controversies , Trump supporters

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Old 6th January 2021, 06:43 PM   #3561
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
A coup does not need to successful to be called a coup.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991...9;état_attempt
You linked to an article on a coup attempt. Where in this article does it say a coup doesn't have to be successful to be a coup?
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Old 6th January 2021, 06:43 PM   #3562
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Yes. There seems to be this misapprehension that a coup needs to have long-term success to be a coup. It doesn’t.
Or it has to be well planned and well organised or make any sense at all.

This group wanted to install Trump as President when he was not reelected, it’s a classic coup attempt.
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Old 6th January 2021, 06:45 PM   #3563
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Reportedly there were multiple confederate flags and even a swastika
Only one?
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Old 6th January 2021, 06:47 PM   #3564
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Reportedly there were multiple confederate flags and even a swastika
Red hats and other Trumpist symbols is equal to a swastika at this point.
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Old 6th January 2021, 06:48 PM   #3565
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Yes. There seems to be this misapprehension that a coup needs to have long-term success to be a coup. It doesn’t.
You do understand that "replacement" can be a temporary thing, right?

The only one thinking that anyone thinks that "a coup needs to have long-term success to be a coup" is you. The requirement of a coup being a coup is that an illegitimate group take (seize) the power of a legitimate government, thus replacing them in the wielding of that power for a period of time. That period can be ten minutes or ten years, success is irrelevant, it is the intent to take that power from the Government through their actions that determines if a coup is a coup.

It's not violence, coups can be totally non-violent, it's not taking over the Government Buildings, coups can occur without taking over any building, and it's not making the Government go into protective lockdown, it is in the trying to replace those members and wield the powers of government for yourself. What we saw today was not that, it was a bunch of insurrectionists hanging out in the chamber for a few hours. They never tried to take the Government's power. They acted to shut down the Government and give voice to what they think is a serious issue. The terrorists did not seat their own congress and vote on the election certificates themselves trying to claim the power. They smashed things up and acted like a bunch of thugs. That's not a Coup, and never will be.
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Old 6th January 2021, 06:48 PM   #3566
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
Only one?
I guess we can't count tattoos if they're hidden by clothing. But I think it's pretty likely there were at least a few.
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Old 6th January 2021, 06:51 PM   #3567
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Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
You linked to an article on a coup attempt. Where in this article does it say a coup doesn't have to be successful to be a coup?
Sorry, I meant to quote the person who was saying a coup had to be successful.
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Old 6th January 2021, 06:51 PM   #3568
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"There are armed rioters storming the Capitol, now is time for me to tone police the exact wording because that's what's important and make 'What?' face when people think I have an ulterior motive."

*Makes jack off motion*
Thank you! Otherwise I was going to make a jack off motion.


Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going back over to the OANN comment section where I don't have to deal with silly ivory tower bickering.
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Old 6th January 2021, 06:51 PM   #3569
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
Only one?
Seems low.
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Old 6th January 2021, 06:53 PM   #3570
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Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
Unbelievable. All of it. That's all I have to say.
Wait until these maggots find a real leader to worship.
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Old 6th January 2021, 06:55 PM   #3571
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
You do understand that "replacement" can be a temporary thing, right?

The only one thinking that anyone thinks that "a coup needs to have long-term success to be a coup" is you. The requirement of a coup being a coup is that an illegitimate group take (seize) the power of a legitimate government, thus replacing them in the wielding of that power for a period of time. That period can be ten minutes or ten years, success is irrelevant, it is the intent to take that power from the Government through their actions that determines if a coup is a coup.

It's not violence, coups can be totally non-violent, it's not taking over the Government Buildings, coups can occur without taking over any building, and it's not making the Government go into protective lockdown, it is in the trying to replace those members and wield the powers of government for yourself. What we saw today was not that, it was a bunch of insurrectionists hanging out in the chamber for a few hours. They never tried to take the Government's power. They acted to shut down the Government and give voice to what they think is a serious issue. The terrorists did not seat their own congress and vote on the election certificates themselves trying to claim the power. They smashed things up and acted like a bunch of thugs. That's not a Coup, and never will be.
I highlighted the part that is incorrect and stopped reading after that. The definition of “coup” that you provided does not require that.
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Old 6th January 2021, 06:55 PM   #3572
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Or it has to be well planned and well organised or make any sense at all.

This group wanted to install Trump as President when he was not reelected, it’s a classic coup attempt.
This isn't quite right.

The group believes that Trump is the legitimate President-Elect because he actually won the election and that if people were willing to listen to them and investigate then the corruption that flipped the election illegally to Bifen would be exposed and Trump would be declared the winner.

Of course, their beliefs are a lot of BS created and feed to them by the likes of Guliani and co through OAN and Beibreit, but just because those beliefs are a bunch of conspiracies and lies doesn't mean that they don't believe them wholeheartedly.

Getting people to investigate and install the "real" winner, is not trying to commit a coup. It might be a coup if they believed that Trump lost but still wanted to install him into power, and actually took actions that would directly further that.
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Old 6th January 2021, 06:56 PM   #3573
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
I highlighted the part that is incorrect and stopped reading after that. The definition of “coup” that you provided does not require that.
seriously, what part of "seize power" do you not understand?
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Old 6th January 2021, 06:58 PM   #3574
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
This isn't quite right.

The group believes that Trump is the legitimate President-Elect because he actually won the election and that if people were willing to listen to them and investigate then the corruption that flipped the election illegally to Bifen would be exposed and Trump would be declared the winner.

Of course, their beliefs are a lot of BS created and feed to them by the likes of Guliani and co through OAN and Beibreit, but just because those beliefs are a bunch of conspiracies and lies doesn't mean that they don't believe them wholeheartedly.

Getting people to investigate and install the "real" winner, is not trying to commit a coup. It might be a coup if they believed that Trump lost but still wanted to install him into power, and actually took actions that would directly further that.
Glad that you looked into their souls and found the pure motives lying within.

The only difference between you and me in our view of this is that you think this was a good faith move by these ****-wits.
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Old 6th January 2021, 07:00 PM   #3575
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A stochastic coup?
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Old 6th January 2021, 07:01 PM   #3576
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[stops in, sees futile debate about coup or not coup has continued for pages]

But but, I must be believed!!!!

[steps back out of thread]
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Old 6th January 2021, 07:08 PM   #3577
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
Pretend attempted coup. Make believe.
Imaginary coup. If you square it's a negative coup you get to undo a real coup.
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Old 6th January 2021, 07:10 PM   #3578
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Glad that you looked into their souls and found the pure motives lying within.
Actually, I think that they are fools that have been sucked into the vortex of an alternative world created by right-wing politicians and an even worse alt-right media.

Quote:
The only difference between you and me in our view of this is that you think this was a good faith move by these ****-wits.
Yes, I think they really believe the lies of Trump and co, just like I think that the 9/11 Hijackers believed that they were doing the right thing by their screwed up ideaology.

Just because someone has a warped and dangerous ideology that -you- can see is warped and dangerous, doesn't mean that those locked into that warped and dangerous ideology can see it the same way you do and that they don't genuinely believe that warped and dangerous ideology. In fact, that is what makes them so dangerous, as we have seen time and time again with terrorists of all kinds, including those today. When you believe a warped and dangerous ideology you are willing to take dangerous and warped actions to support it.

These people truly believe that Trump really won the election in a landslide victory and that millions of fraudulent votes have been created to steal that from victory him. In their minds, Trump is the legitimate President-Elect because he won and the Democrats then stole the election via fraud.

Yeah, they are dead wrong in their belief, but their belief in it is exactly what makes them very, very dangerous, just as we saw today, just as we saw on 9/11.
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Old 6th January 2021, 07:12 PM   #3579
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
seriously, what part of "seize power" do you not understand?
I understand all of it. Especially the part where “seize” doesn’t mean “replace”.
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Old 6th January 2021, 07:15 PM   #3580
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
OK, how 'bout we downgrade that to "can appear not to be a total ******* when he tries really hard"?
Lemme think about it.
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Old 6th January 2021, 07:15 PM   #3581
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
I understand all of it. Especially the part where “seize” doesn’t mean “replace”.
How can you seize the power of a government without becoming the new government?
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Old 6th January 2021, 07:18 PM   #3582
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
This isn't quite right.

The group believes that Trump is the legitimate President-Elect because he actually won the election and that if people were willing to listen to them and investigate then the corruption that flipped the election illegally to Bifen would be exposed and Trump would be declared the winner.

Of course, their beliefs are a lot of BS created and feed to them by the likes of Guliani and co through OAN and Beibreit, but just because those beliefs are a bunch of conspiracies and lies doesn't mean that they don't believe them wholeheartedly.

Getting people to investigate and install the "real" winner, is not trying to commit a coup. It might be a coup if they believed that Trump lost but still wanted to install him into power, and actually took actions that would directly further that.
Yeah, this is patently ridiculous. I’m pretty sure everyone who ever carried out a coup sincerely believe they were in the right. That doesn’t therefore make it not a coup.
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Old 6th January 2021, 07:19 PM   #3583
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
It's being reported that Twitter locked Trump 's account.
That wasn't twitter; I locked him out. Had to be done.
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Old 6th January 2021, 07:23 PM   #3584
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Here's the thing. Trump has been attempting a coup since before the election. But as his former fixer has said when Trump wants his associates to break a law, he never tells them explicitly. He uses mob speak. This is no different.

Those morons that stormed the Capitol today weren't attempting a coup. Trump was inviting them to in some desperate hope that the chaos would keep him in power. Those idiots didn't have a clue what they were doing. And neither does Trump.
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Old 6th January 2021, 07:23 PM   #3585
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I've ingested about an hour back and forth between chambers.

Mitt Romney was blunt, forceful, and eloquent.
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Old 6th January 2021, 07:24 PM   #3586
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Originally Posted by cosmicaug View Post
Imaginary coup. If you square it's a negative coup you get to undo a real coup.
“Coup coup ga joob.” - John Lenin
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Old 6th January 2021, 07:24 PM   #3587
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
How can you seize the power of a government without becoming the new government?
By taking control of the Capitol and preventing that government from exercising their power. For the several hours that right wing terrorists occupied the seat of the government after driving the government out, they took power away from the government.
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Old 6th January 2021, 07:25 PM   #3588
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Yeah, this is patently ridiculous. I’m pretty sure everyone who ever carried out a coup sincerely believe they were in the right. That doesn’t therefore make it not a coup.
I swear, do you go out of your way to not understand things? It has zero to do with other coups, it has to do with the fact another poster claimed that it was a coup because these people wanted to install Trump as President when he lost the Election. I am pointed out that no, they are trying to keep Trump as president because they believe he won the election. It has zero to anyone believing that they are in right, it has to do with if they believe that Trump is the legitimate winner of the election.
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Old 6th January 2021, 07:29 PM   #3589
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
How can you seize the power of a government without becoming the new government?
There's a reason one of the most clearly laid out processes a government tries to get right is: succession/transfer of power.

A fumble at those moments allow any number of scenarios.

Anything is better than "limbo" which is what occupation of the seat of government means.

Sure, the body can meet in a bunker in Montana, but the occupation is a signal of intent to usurp, or at least depose.

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Old 6th January 2021, 07:29 PM   #3590
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Have we passed peak trump yet?

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Old 6th January 2021, 07:30 PM   #3591
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
By taking control of the Capitol and preventing that government from exercising their power. For the several hours that right wing terrorists occupied the seat of the government after driving the government out, they took power away from the government.
Preventing someone from using power is not seizing it. Seizing requires the taking possession of the thing being seized. Preventing the Government from being seated is not seizing their power in any form.

Originally Posted by collins
seize (siz)

v. seized, seiz•ing. v.t.
1. to take hold of suddenly or forcibly; grasp: to seize a weapon.
2. to grasp mentally; understand clearly and completely: to seize an idea.
3. to take possession or control of as if by suddenly laying hold: Panic seized the crowd.
4. to take possession of by legal authority; confiscate.
5. to capture; take into custody.
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Old 6th January 2021, 07:31 PM   #3592
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
There's a reason one of the most clearly laid out processes a government tries to get right is: succession/transfer of power.

A fumble at those moments allow any number of scenarios.
Kind of irrelevant to the discussion.
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Old 6th January 2021, 07:32 PM   #3593
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Driving the Government from a sitting session sure is 'taking hold of suddenly or forcibly', as well as mentally.... The riots seized the Capitol in a grip of terror.

Also the zip-ties they were carrying indicates a desire to capture and take into custody any congresscritter they found. Some items were also taken possession of, like that podium some nutter was pictured carrying.
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Old 6th January 2021, 07:35 PM   #3594
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
I've ingested about an hour back and forth between chambers.

Mitt Romney was blunt, forceful, and eloquent.
He has whole binders of bluntness, forcefulness, and eloquence!
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Old 6th January 2021, 07:37 PM   #3595
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
Driving the Government from a sitting session sure is 'taking hold of suddenly or forcibly', as well as mentally.... The riots seized the Capitol in a grip of terror.

Also the zip-ties they were carrying indicates a desire to capture and take into custody any congresscritter they found. Some items were also taken possession of, like that podium some nutter was pictured carrying.
None of those things are the Powers of the Government.
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Old 6th January 2021, 07:38 PM   #3596
Silly Green Monkey
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Congress in session is absolutely a Power of the Government.
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Old 6th January 2021, 07:43 PM   #3597
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
Congress in session is absolutely a Power of the Government.
Unless you plan to argue that the insurrectionist terrorists sat their own session of congress, then they didn't take possession of it, they suspended it.

This was an "act of open revolt against a constituted government" rather than an attempt "to seize the powers of a government." It was an insurrection, not a coup.
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Old 6th January 2021, 07:45 PM   #3598
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What difference does it make if this is called a coup or not?
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Old 6th January 2021, 07:46 PM   #3599
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Hawley seems to be indicating he will "put his name on paper" again tonight.

That means another 2 hour debate.

Theoretically he may do it for the 6 battleground states.
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Old 6th January 2021, 07:46 PM   #3600
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And their goal of halting the Powers of the Government from transferring those powers to the democratically elected President from their candidate, who they were convinced actually won? That's not a 'seizing'? Remember that failing in a goal does not mean the goal didn't exist.
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