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Tags 2020 elections , donald trump , election conspiracies , Trump controversies , Trump supporters

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Old 7th January 2021, 03:08 AM   #3721
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
You do understand that "replacement" can be a temporary thing, right?

The only one thinking that anyone thinks that "a coup needs to have long-term success to be a coup" is you. The requirement of a coup being a coup is that an illegitimate group take (seize) the power of a legitimate government, thus replacing them in the wielding of that power for a period of time. That period can be ten minutes or ten years, success is irrelevant, it is the intent to take that power from the Government through their actions that determines if a coup is a coup.

It's not violence, coups can be totally non-violent, it's not taking over the Government Buildings, coups can occur without taking over any building, and it's not making the Government go into protective lockdown, it is in the trying to replace those members and wield the powers of government for yourself. What we saw today was not that, it was a bunch of insurrectionists hanging out in the chamber for a few hours. They never tried to take the Government's power. They acted to shut down the Government and give voice to what they think is a serious issue. The terrorists did not seat their own congress and vote on the election certificates themselves trying to claim the power. They smashed things up and acted like a bunch of thugs. That's not a Coup, and never will be.

There is no way they genuinely believed there was election fraud. That was just a pretext for descending on Capitol. Their aim was to intimidate Pence to instal Trump as continuing President. National Guard wasn't called for three or four hours because...guess what...only the current President - Trump - has the power to call them. In the end Pence did it, probably after confronting Trump.

What more could they have done for it to be an attempted coup?

Trump put everybody's lives in danger in that building. Hardened journalists were terrified for their safety.
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Old 7th January 2021, 03:09 AM   #3722
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
She was a Q-nut too.
The Pentagon must institute some civics lessons as routine training.
And it must never, ever allow FOX, Newsmaxx or OAN to be shown in the mess hall.
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Old 7th January 2021, 03:12 AM   #3723
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
She was a Q-nut too.
A lot of time, effort and money has been invested in preventing the radicalisation of Muslims and de-radicalising those who have fallen prey to the poisonous misinformation.

At what point should a similar investment be made w.r.t. QAnon ? Right now this seems a greater threat to democracy than Islamic Fundamentalism - not least because AFAIK there are no self-proclaimed Islamic Fundamentalists sitting in Congress - or indeed storming the Capitol.
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Old 7th January 2021, 03:18 AM   #3724
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Actually, I think that they are fools that have been sucked into the vortex of an alternative world created by right-wing politicians and an even worse alt-right media.



Yes, I think they really believe the lies of Trump and co, just like I think that the 9/11 Hijackers believed that they were doing the right thing by their screwed up ideaology.

<snip>
Yeah, they are dead wrong in their belief, but their belief in it is exactly what makes them very, very dangerous, just as we saw today, just as we saw on 9/11.
Sorry. Stop right there. Are you claiming 9/11 wasn't a genuine terror attack?
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Old 7th January 2021, 03:19 AM   #3725
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
How can you seize the power of a government without becoming the new government?
That was the AIM. DOH!
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Old 7th January 2021, 03:35 AM   #3726
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If only the president can call the national guard, and Pence called the national guard... Does that mean Pence is now president?
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Old 7th January 2021, 03:41 AM   #3727
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Originally Posted by Ryokan View Post
If only the president can call the national guard, and Pence called the national guard... Does that mean Pence is now president?

people in the chain of command are more comfortable with taking orders from the VP than from POTUS.
That should tell you everything you need to know about the Trump Presidency.
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Old 7th January 2021, 03:45 AM   #3728
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
4 people were killed today.

You tell me.
If that woman had been Muslim, do you think the press would count it as a 'killing'. No, it would be 'thee people died plus the terrorist who brought it on themself'.
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Old 7th January 2021, 03:50 AM   #3729
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
She was a Q-nut too.
Travelled all the way from San Diego. I'm guessing there was a hardcore quasi-military planning here, with some sundry MAGA who stumbled into the building by pure accident of fate. Those pipe bombs were not impromptu.
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Old 7th January 2021, 03:54 AM   #3730
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
people in the chain of command are more comfortable with taking orders from the VP than from POTUS.
That should tell you everything you need to know about the Trump Presidency.
Both Virginia NG and Maryland NG were on their way, which shows how confused the chain of command was.

Consider this: those congressmen yesterday were completely at the mercy of whomever, with just a handful of ineffective policemen and security guards who couldn't say boo to a goose. Compare and contrast to a typical airport. Armed police everywhere.
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Old 7th January 2021, 05:25 AM   #3731
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I don't think so. It was well orchestrated. The woman who was shot, Ashli Babbit, was a US Air Force veteran - probably one of the leaders - who burst in through the window like something out of James Bond.

That was no 'tourist'.
Originally Posted by Resume View Post
She was a Q-nut too.
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
The Pentagon must institute some civics lessons as routine training.
And it must never, ever allow FOX, Newsmaxx or OAN to be shown in the mess hall.
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
A lot of time, effort and money has been invested in preventing the radicalisation of Muslims and de-radicalising those who have fallen prey to the poisonous misinformation.

At what point should a similar investment be made w.r.t. QAnon ? Right now this seems a greater threat to democracy than Islamic Fundamentalism - not least because AFAIK there are no self-proclaimed Islamic Fundamentalists sitting in Congress - or indeed storming the Capitol.
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Travelled all the way from San Diego. I'm guessing there was a hardcore quasi-military planning here, with some sundry MAGA who stumbled into the building by pure accident of fate. Those pipe bombs were not impromptu.
Actually, it looks like there is some quite graphic video of her being shot.

This appears to be on a Twitter feed of someone insinuating she was shot by a member of Congress.

My guess is that it is more likely a security guard or plain clothes police.
(Do Secret Service also guard the Capitol or is that only for presidents?)

Anyway, the video does not really show her looking like any kind of commando, in my humble opinion. She looks pretty much like the rest of the MAGA mob. She's wearing a Trump flag for a cape and climbing up a barricaded door when a guy holding a pistol comes out from the other side of the door and shoot her through the broken window.

https://twitter.com/1stacyphillips/s...94167411806211
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Old 7th January 2021, 05:33 AM   #3732
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Could the US be headed to civil war in the future, not state vs state but some small group try to "take back America", could yesterdays taking of the Capitol building be a start to that? It kind of be like taking rifles to tanks and fight planes.
I think as soon as Trump sets foot outside the Whitehouse he should be arrested for something.
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Old 7th January 2021, 05:59 AM   #3733
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Anyway, the video does not really show her looking like any kind of commando, in my humble opinion. She looks pretty much like the rest of the MAGA mob. She's wearing a Trump flag for a cape and climbing up a barricaded door when a guy holding a pistol comes out from the other side of the door and shoot her through the broken window.

https://twitter.com/1stacyphillips/s...94167411806211


One shot, at the first person trying to breach the security barrier, that immediately took the momentum out of the Gravy Seal types as they realized this wasn't a game any more.

I call that a reasonable use of force. Sucks to be her, but she was where she chose to be.
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Old 7th January 2021, 06:11 AM   #3734
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Darat please ban PhantomWolf, Thermal, and SkepticGinger but tell them it's not technically a ban when they complain.

//That was sarcasm before any pearl clutching starts//
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Old 7th January 2021, 06:15 AM   #3735
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
4 people were killed today.

You tell me.
I caught this on the news this morning, I know about the woman in the Capital, who/what/where were the other three?
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Old 7th January 2021, 06:20 AM   #3736
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Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
I caught this on the news this morning, I know about the woman in the Capital, who/what/where were the other three?
details vague right now, press release from cops claim "medical emergencies". As of right now, only the one is thought to have been a violent death.
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Old 7th January 2021, 06:27 AM   #3737
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There were several images of people like trying to repel down the balconies from the gallery to the floor of Congress and similar stuff. Wouldn't be surprised if there were some tumbles.
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Old 7th January 2021, 06:38 AM   #3738
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Actually, it looks like there is some quite graphic video of her being shot.

This appears to be on a Twitter feed of someone insinuating she was shot by a member of Congress.

My guess is that it is more likely a security guard or plain clothes police.
(Do Secret Service also guard the Capitol or is that only for presidents?)

Anyway, the video does not really show her looking like any kind of commando, in my humble opinion. She looks pretty much like the rest of the MAGA mob. She's wearing a Trump flag for a cape and climbing up a barricaded door when a guy holding a pistol comes out from the other side of the door and shoot her through the broken window.

https://twitter.com/1stacyphillips/s...94167411806211
Noticed the Kevin Sorbo post. He really is just a ******* moron.
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Old 7th January 2021, 06:41 AM   #3739
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
There were several images of people like trying to repel down the balconies from the gallery to the floor of Congress and similar stuff. Wouldn't be surprised if there were some tumbles.
I could see some commando cosplay types falling that way.
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Old 7th January 2021, 06:42 AM   #3740
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
One shot, at the first person trying to breach the security barrier, that immediately took the momentum out of the Gravy Seal types as they realized this wasn't a game any more.

I call that a reasonable use of force. Sucks to be her, but she was where she chose to be.

I agree, pending further details about exactly where and when the confrontation took place. It appeared to be at the literal threshold where the guards weren't defending furniture or artwork or documents, but the legislators themselves.

There's a poem about a guardian of the gate, that seems to apply. Whether the shooter was brave or panicking in this case, the gate was guarded.
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Old 7th January 2021, 06:42 AM   #3741
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Betting one of the first guys to be arrested for his role in the insurrection is that idiot who took the selfie of himself in Pelosi's office. He just saved teh FBI a lot of work.
Originally Posted by Resume View Post
I think Viking idiot is a frontrunner.
Hopefully, the police exchanged contact information with them while they were politely escorting them away from the crime scene.
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Old 7th January 2021, 06:48 AM   #3742
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
There's a poem about a guardian of the gate, that seems to apply. Whether the shooter was brave or panicking in this case, the gate was guarded.

That wasn't panic fire. A single shot, that hit the target, and they stopped shooting when the threat clearly abated. This is exactly what a police shooting should look like. A clear threat dealt with in the most disciplined manner possible.

If all US cops were as calm and measured as this guy, the US would be in a far better place right now.
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Old 7th January 2021, 06:48 AM   #3743
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
One shot, at the first person trying to breach the security barrier, that immediately took the momentum out of the Gravy Seal types as they realized this wasn't a game any more.

I call that a reasonable use of force. Sucks to be her, but she was where she chose to be.
Hadn't heard that one before. I like it.

There will be an inquiry to find more details, but I think that inquiry will reach the same conclusion you did. I think your summary above is spot on.
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Old 7th January 2021, 06:50 AM   #3744
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
I could see some commando cosplay types falling that way.

"What do you mean 'Ropes have weight limits'?"
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Old 7th January 2021, 06:50 AM   #3745
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Hadn't heard that one before. I like it.


Not original, there's a lot of those going around. Meal Team Six is another.
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Old 7th January 2021, 06:51 AM   #3746
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
"What do you mean 'Ropes have weight limits'?"
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Old 7th January 2021, 06:56 AM   #3747
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
If that woman had been Muslim, do you think the press would count it as a 'killing'. No, it would be 'thee people died plus the terrorist who brought it on themself'.
It’s been pointed out on social media that black people shot by the police routinely have their backgrounds combed over for anything negative that can be used to besmirch their character.

This woman - a violent terrorist who was shot by police during a failed coup attempt at the U.S. Capitol - is allowed the courtesy and honor of “Air Force veteran” being one of her primary descriptors in the media.
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Old 7th January 2021, 07:00 AM   #3748
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
This woman - a violent terrorist who was shot by police during a failed coup attempt at the U.S. Capitol - is allowed the courtesy and honor of “Air Force veteran” being one of her primary descriptors in the media.

Which of course means she should have had a better understanding of the sorts of rules of engagement the Capitol security were likely operating under. So no sympathy from me at all. She knew what she was doing.
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Old 7th January 2021, 07:04 AM   #3749
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Originally Posted by Davidlpf View Post
Could the US be headed to civil war in the future, not state vs state but some small group try to "take back America", could yesterdays taking of the Capitol building be a start to that? It kind of be like taking rifles to tanks and fight planes.
That's not Civil War. That's terrorism, just like last night.
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Old 7th January 2021, 07:05 AM   #3750
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Originally Posted by timhau View Post
That's not Civil War. That's terrorism, just like last night.
Ah like how there was never a civil war in Iraq after the invasion.
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Old 7th January 2021, 07:10 AM   #3751
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I'm wondering how the contemptible religious leaders (so tempted to put irony quotes around that word, but they'd look like scare quotes) who pledged body and soul that Trump would prevail and lead the righteous to the Earthly paradise are feeling about their support for this terrorist leader. Particularly the laughing hyena, braying "Haw-haw-haw" over the idea that God would allow Joseph Biden to become president, the minister who if I am not mistaken is also the wizard who magically blew away the Corona virus, thereby saving us from the last 150,000 deaths from covid-19. How's that going for you Rev?

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Old 7th January 2021, 07:12 AM   #3752
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I wondered what it was where the woman was shot yesterday. The lettering on the door said "Speakers Lobby", but I didn't know what that means.

There's a video in this link:
https://history.house.gov/Education/...e-Scenes-Tour/

It's basically a long hallway that has doors to the back end of the House chamber. When people enter and leave the House chamber via the entrances near the dais, they go through the Speakers Lobby. So, basically, that door was the entrance to where the House chamber itself, where the Representatives were hiding in place.

So, I can't fault the guard for shooting anyone trying to get in.

It is called the Speakers Lobby because it is lined with portraits of Speakers of the House.
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Old 7th January 2021, 07:13 AM   #3753
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Duplicate post
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Yes, yes. I know you are right. But would it hurt you to provide some information?

Last edited by Meadmaker; 7th January 2021 at 07:17 AM.
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Old 7th January 2021, 07:21 AM   #3754
Dr. Keith
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Darat please ban PhantomWolf, Thermal, and SkepticGinger but tell them it's not technically a ban when they complain.

//That was sarcasm before any pearl clutching starts//
Double Secret Suspension

- Dean Darat, probably.







(Does Animal House even resonate with those outside of the US? Probably the wrong thread for that discussion.)
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Old 7th January 2021, 07:26 AM   #3755
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
A Coup d'etat requires the military to join in. A coup does not.
Maybe a putsch?
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Old 7th January 2021, 07:30 AM   #3756
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
One shot, at the first person trying to breach the security barrier, that immediately took the momentum out of the Gravy Seal types as they realized this wasn't a game any more.

I call that a reasonable use of force. Sucks to be her, but she was where she chose to be.
She was probably shot by Secret Service protecting Mike Pence, which is ironic for her.

I think we file this one under: "Play stupid games; win stupid prizes"
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 7th January 2021, 07:34 AM   #3757
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Maybe a putsch?
Pass me the electron microscope: I have some split ends I want to split.

I have an idea: Whatever we call it, can we now get rid of that sack of **** in the Oval Office who incited it?

I think it is best to do it before he pardons them all and has an untouchable Qanon mob who feel they can do whatever they want.
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"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 7th January 2021, 07:38 AM   #3758
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I wondered what it was where the woman was shot yesterday. The lettering on the door said "Speakers Lobby", but I didn't know what that means.

There's a video in this link:
https://history.house.gov/Education/...e-Scenes-Tour/

It's basically a long hallway that has doors to the back end of the House chamber. When people enter and leave the House chamber via the entrances near the dais, they go through the Speakers Lobby. So, basically, that door was the entrance to where the House chamber itself, where the Representatives were hiding in place.

So, I can't fault the guard for shooting anyone trying to get in.
Neither can I. We can fault them for not using automatic weapons though.
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Old 7th January 2021, 07:39 AM   #3759
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Darat please ban PhantomWolf, Thermal, and SkepticGinger but tell them it's not technically a ban when they complain.

//That was sarcasm before any pearl clutching starts//
Technically, a ban is permanent. We cannot say that their removal is permanent until we reach the end of time. Until then, we will have to refer to it as an "indefinite suspension."
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Old 7th January 2021, 07:39 AM   #3760
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post

... There's a poem about a guardian of the gate, that seems to apply. Whether the shooter was brave or panicking in this case, the gate was guarded.
As the dead woman appears to be an airforce veteran there's a quote from Top Gun which also seems apt: "Your sons are dead because they were stupid".
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