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Tags Brazil politics , CJ Hopkins , Democratic Socialism , fascism , Jair Bolsonaro , Pepe Escobar

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Old 13th October 2018, 11:35 AM   #1
Childlike Empress
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Question Is a true fascist about to win the election in earth's fifth most populated country?

I'm talking about Brazil of course, where the first round of the presidential election already had the winner Jair Bolsonaro, and they will go into a second, deciding round at the end of the month.

Just read this long but very informative piece by the native Brazilian Pepe Escobar who tries to see what is happening there in context to what could be about to happen in Europe next year.

Originally Posted by Pepe Escobar
[...] Brazil has 42 million evangelicals – and over 200 representatives in both branches of Parliament. Don’t mess with their jihad. They know how to exercise massive appeal among the beggars at the neoliberal banquet. The Lula Left simply didn’t know how to seduce them.

So even with echoes of Mike Pence, Bolsonaro is the Brazilian Trump only to a certain extent: his communication skills – talking tough, simplistically, is language understandable to a seven-year old. Educated Italians compare him to Matteo Salvini, the Lega leader, now Minister of Interior. But that’s also not exactly the case.

Bolsonaro is a symptom of a much larger disease. He has only reached this level, a head-to-head in the second round against Lula’s candidate Haddad, because of a sophisticated, rolling, multi-stage, judicial/congressional/business/media Hybrid War unleashed on Brazil. [...]

He describes how the (more or less) abstract forces of capitalism seem to be willing to throw out all achievements of "civilization" when it comes to prevent the specter of "democratic socialism", whose impersonation in Brazil, Lula de Silva, sits in jail on laughable charges and would easily beat anybody in these elections according to any polls, from winning.

For the title I had to look up where Brazil stands in the population-per-country charts and found there that the three countries with the highest medium age are Japan, Germany and Italy with 46 years, So maybe Fascism is good for the health?

CJ Hopkins, in similarly wide-reaching observations to Escobar, blames it all on identity politics, which is, as you know if you ever listened to David Icke, the stoopitest form of politics imaginable, as we are all just different points of awareness in an ocean of consciousness.
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Old 13th October 2018, 03:58 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
I'm talking about Brazil of course, where the first round of the presidential election already had the winner Jair Bolsonaro, and they will go into a second, deciding round at the end of the month.

Just read this long but very informative piece by the native Brazilian Pepe Escobar who tries to see what is happening there in context to what could be about to happen in Europe next year.




He describes how the (more or less) abstract forces of capitalism seem to be willing to throw out all achievements of "civilization" when it comes to prevent the specter of "democratic socialism", whose impersonation in Brazil, Lula de Silva, sits in jail on laughable charges and would easily beat anybody in these elections according to any polls, from winning.

For the title I had to look up where Brazil stands in the population-per-country charts and found there that the three countries with the highest medium age are Japan, Germany and Italy with 46 years, So maybe Fascism is good for the health?

CJ Hopkins, in similarly wide-reaching observations to Escobar, blames it all on identity politics, which is, as you know if you ever listened to David Icke, the stoopitest form of politics imaginable, as we are all just different points of awareness in an ocean of consciousness.
Too much work to figure out what this is all about. Hope this helps.
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Old 27th October 2018, 08:59 AM   #3
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Confusing OP, but an important topic.

Bolsenaro is actually as bad as the US left thinks Trump is.

I don't know if he'll be able to implement what he's preaching, but he's a scary guy.

But poverty and crime are motivating people to vote for an extreme candidate. He's more like Duterte than like Trump. And blissfully unaware of economic issues. Fun times ahead. Samba Pinochet incoming.
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Old 27th October 2018, 09:27 AM   #4
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Bolsonaro is much worse than Trump.

I'm sure he and Duterte will connect well. Scary times.

Too bad that knife attack didn't kill the ******.
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Old 28th October 2018, 05:44 PM   #5
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Happened.
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Old 28th October 2018, 05:57 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
Confusing OP, but an important topic.

Bolsenaro is actually as bad as the US left thinks Trump is.

I don't know if he'll be able to implement what he's preaching, but he's a scary guy.

But poverty and crime are motivating people to vote for an extreme candidate. He's more like Duterte than like Trump. And blissfully unaware of economic issues. Fun times ahead. Samba Pinochet incoming.
Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Bolsonaro is much worse than Trump.

I'm sure he and Duterte will connect well. Scary times.

Too bad that knife attack didn't kill the ******.
Trump has, of course, previously expressed his admiration for Duterte and other authoritarian thugs such as Putin, Erdogan, and Bibi. His role models.
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Old 29th October 2018, 01:55 AM   #7
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Truly saddening but having just come back from Brazil a lot of people there are genuinely concerned for the future of the country and genuinely seem to feel that Brazil has lost its way. They are looking for change and hope and this nugget is telling them what they want to hear.

The same story everywhere at the moment. A lot of disenchanted people looking for someone with answers and not being critical or analytical enough of those who are providing them on a plate.

My overriding wish at the moment is that this is simply a phase and that people will see in a few years that these guys are ******** merchants. Of course the problem with guys like this is that once they get into power they do a hell of a good job of holding on to it and suppressing the opposition and any dissent.

We may be about to see whether old fashioned fascism can last in the internet age - or whether in fact the internet may be the thing that helps it last.
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Old 29th October 2018, 02:28 AM   #8
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politics globally seem to require hitting rock-bottom, ideologically, before they can reboot their belief in Democracy.
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Old 29th October 2018, 03:03 AM   #9
Archie Gemmill Goal
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
politics globally seem to require hitting rock-bottom, ideologically, before they can reboot their belief in Democracy.
I don't know if it's belief in democracy that's the issue - i think it's simply that 'I have an answer' is a much better proposition to sell than 'there are no easy answers folks' even if it's a lie.

Perhaps its cyclical that every once in a while people have to experience the fact that there are no easy answers in order to understand it or maybe it's a factor of the modern age that most people seem fairly ignorant and driven by personality and soundbites rather than understanding the issues. Or maybe it has always been like that?
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Old 29th October 2018, 09:08 AM   #10
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Portugal has been getting a lot of Brazilian immigrants in recent years. Violence, corruption, poverty etc etc.

I think Brazil has a lot of incentive to try something (anything) radical and hope for the best.

I know a very nice Filipina who is 100% pro-Duterte. After you see enough muggings and kidnappings and you see every attempt of law-abiding people to do business end in extortion by sociopathic criminals, simply shooting those criminals starts to sound like a mighty attractive police proposal.

I know it's wrong, I know it will end in tears. I'm just saying that I can understand the frustration that is driving this.
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Old 29th October 2018, 09:26 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Scary times.


Lovin' it.

When will you guys all come to comprehend the fact that people don't like the chaos and demonic insanity the left represent?

And that people don't like having their nations stolen from them by outsiders, either? That may not be going on with Brazil, but it is in most of the other nations you're currently finding very frustrating because of their rightward political shift.

It doesn't make people okay with stealing their nations simply because you assert "no no, these people we're letting take your space are you as well... yeah, it's their nation too... because we say so."

They aren't us, and it isn't theirs.

It's time to set up some sort of nation specifically for the leftists. You people can be as "on the right side of history" and as progressive there as you want to be. Have as many genders as you want and have no restrictions whatsoever on who comes in. Have a universal income and universal health care and whatever the hell else you want to do, but do it there.

Stop trying to fundamentally change other nations which were built on a foundation of all the things you clearly hate. If you can only exist by slowly changing something functional made by patriarchy and racism and xenophobia and traditionalism, perhaps that indicates something about the viability of progressivism.
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Old 29th October 2018, 10:34 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
When will you guys all come to comprehend the fact that people don't like the chaos and demonic insanity the left represent?
Right after you come to understand that you're wrong about that.

The "right" and the "left" have always existed. You seem to want to redefine "the left" as a subset of what it actually is, in order to identify it with everything you've come to hate.

Quote:
And that people don't like having their nations stolen from them by outsiders, either?
Of course they don't. But immigration is as old as the world, and we're all outsiders, anyway.

Quote:
That may not be going on with Brazil, but it is in most of the other nations you're currently finding very frustrating because of their rightward political shift.
Yes, treating women like cattle and potentially productive people like enemies sure isn't going to make the world a better place.

Quote:
It doesn't make people okay with stealing their nations simply because you assert "no no, these people we're letting take your space are you as well... yeah, it's their nation too... because we say so."
Just because you call it "stealing their nations" doesn't make it so.

Quote:
They aren't us, and it isn't theirs.
By that logic we should all have stayed in Europe.

Quote:
It's time to set up some sort of nation specifically for the leftists. You people can be as "on the right side of history" and as progressive there as you want to be. Have as many genders as you want and have no restrictions whatsoever on who comes in. Have a universal income and universal health care and whatever the hell else you want to do, but do it there.
Thanks for proving my first point. You're talking a subset of "the left" as if it's the whole thing, like some talking about "the right" as if it's just the Nazis.

Quote:
Stop trying to fundamentally change other nations which were built on a foundation of all the things you clearly hate.
I don't think you know too well the foundation of the nations you refer to.
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Old 29th October 2018, 11:09 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
I don't know if it's belief in democracy that's the issue - i think it's simply that 'I have an answer' is a much better proposition to sell than 'there are no easy answers folks' even if it's a lie.

Perhaps its cyclical that every once in a while people have to experience the fact that there are no easy answers in order to understand it or maybe it's a factor of the modern age that most people seem fairly ignorant and driven by personality and soundbites rather than understanding the issues. Or maybe it has always been like that?
The 2008 crash left a lot of people worse off and disenchanted with the 'system'. Add to that a lacklustre collection of mainstream politicians, corruption in a number of countries and you have the perfect conditions for populists offering the people simple solutions to complex problems and some group to blame all their woes.
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Old 29th October 2018, 11:22 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Yes, treating women like cattle and potentially productive people like enemies sure isn't going to make the world a better place.
Yet you said this to ST, right after typing this:

You seem to want to redefine "the left" as a subset of what it actually is, in order to identify it with everything you've come to hate.

Think hard about where in the world women are treated as cattle.
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Old 29th October 2018, 11:25 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
And that people don't like having their nations stolen from them by outsiders, either? .
He says in a thread about a man who has nothing but contempt for the indigenous people of his country!

It amazes me that people on the right still try to fabricate justifications for their nonsense. At least be honest enough to admit that the only mantra the right adheres to is 'We will because we can'
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Old 29th October 2018, 11:45 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Trump has, of course, previously expressed his admiration for Duterte and other authoritarian thugs such as Putin, Erdogan, and Bibi. His role models.
Trump has called Bolsonaro and expressed his admiration. Wotta surprise.
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Old 29th October 2018, 11:46 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
Yet you said this to ST, right after typing this:

You seem to want to redefine "the left" as a subset of what it actually is, in order to identify it with everything you've come to hate.

Think hard about where in the world women are treated as cattle.
I'm not sure how this relates to what I said. You seem to think you've done something very clever here, but I can't tell exactly what it is. Perhaps you're unaware of Skeptic Tank's political leanings.
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Old 29th October 2018, 12:28 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Trump has called Bolsonaro and expressed his admiration. Wotta surprise.

Netanyahoo is euphoric as well.
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Old 29th October 2018, 01:11 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post


Lovin' it.

When will you guys all come to comprehend the fact that people don't like the chaos and demonic insanity the left represent?

And that people don't like having their nations stolen from them by outsiders, either? That may not be going on with Brazil, but it is in most of the other nations you're currently finding very frustrating because of their rightward political shift.
You've reduced it down to this?

Excuse me, some of us don't want to see military dictatorships or death squads and security forces roaming around silencing dissent, you know, like those third-world ****holes you hate.

This is about the withering of democratic values and the respect for human life.
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Old 29th October 2018, 01:47 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
You've reduced it down to this?

Excuse me, some of us don't want to see military dictatorships or death squads and security forces roaming around silencing dissent, you know, like those third-world ****holes you hate.

This is about the withering of democratic values and the respect for human life.

Uh, you are aware of SKeptic's Tank's political leanings?
That post was what was to be expected from him.
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Old 29th October 2018, 01:50 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
Portugal has been getting a lot of Brazilian immigrants in recent years. Violence, corruption, poverty etc etc.

I think Brazil has a lot of incentive to try something (anything) radical and hope for the best.

I know a very nice Filipina who is 100% pro-Duterte. After you see enough muggings and kidnappings and you see every attempt of law-abiding people to do business end in extortion by sociopathic criminals, simply shooting those criminals starts to sound like a mighty attractive police proposal.

I know it's wrong, I know it will end in tears. I'm just saying that I can understand the frustration that is driving this.
Agreed, Brazil is a total mess, but a right wing authoritarian who is will quickly make himself a dictator and is promising to throw rule of law out the window will turn a total mess into a total disaster. I give you Germany in 1932 as the obvious example.
The other problem is these type of regimes prove to be even more corrupt as those that went before them . They all claim to Drain the Swamp, but what they do is enlarge the Swamp and stock if with their own creatures.
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Old 29th October 2018, 02:11 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
When will you guys all come to comprehend the fact that people don't like the chaos and demonic insanity the left represent?

I don't get it! Is he saying that guys like Trump and his friend in Brazil represent stability and angelic sanity?!
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Old 29th October 2018, 02:27 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post


. If you can only exist by slowly changing something functional made by patriarchy and racism and xenophobia and traditionalism, perhaps that indicates something about the viability of progressivism.
EXcuse me while I vomit.

As for Chaos and Demonic Insanity, seems to me the right has produced plenty of those....
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Old 29th October 2018, 03:18 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Agreed, Brazil is a total mess, but a right wing authoritarian who is will quickly make himself a dictator and is promising to throw rule of law out the window will turn a total mess into a total disaster. I give you Germany in 1932 as the obvious example.
The other problem is these type of regimes prove to be even more corrupt as those that went before them . They all claim to Drain the Swamp, but what they do is enlarge the Swamp and stock if with their own creatures.
I've been reading up in Fascism and the fact that the trains didn't actually run on time under Mussolini is an interesting data point.
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Old 29th October 2018, 10:48 PM   #25
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Even more guns per cubic fortnight in Brazil than in the USA. This will not end well.
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Old 29th October 2018, 11:23 PM   #26
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This is also the guy who has raided university libraries to confiscate and destroy books about fascism, and who has vowed to deforest the Amazon and drive out the native population, who has promised to expel all his political rivals from the country. And that's just scratching the surface. He's a genuine monster.

He won't just be terrible for the people of Brazil, he will be terrible for the world.
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Old 30th October 2018, 01:20 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
This is also the guy who has raided university libraries to confiscate and destroy books about fascism, and who has vowed to deforest the Amazon and drive out the native population, who has promised to expel all his political rivals from the country. And that's just scratching the surface. He's a genuine monster.

He won't just be terrible for the people of Brazil, he will be terrible for the world.
If he allows the destruction of the rainforest, we are going to be in deep doodoo.
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Old 30th October 2018, 03:39 AM   #28
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Pepe's detailed post-election take: Welcome to the Jungle

Conclusion:

Originally Posted by Pepe Escobar
[...] The sophisticated Hybrid War rolling coup in Brazil that started in 2014, had a point of inflexion in 2016 and culminating in 2018 with impeaching a president; jailing another; smashing the Right and the Center-Right; and in a post-politics-on-steroids manner, opening the path to neo-fascism.

Bolsonaro though is a – mediocre – black void cipher. He does not have the political structure, the knowledge, not to mention the intelligence to have come so far, our of the blue, without a hyper-complex, state of the art, cross-border intel support system. No wonder he’s a Steve Bannon darling.

In contrast, the Left – as in Europe – once again was stuck in analog mode. No way any progressive front, especially in this case as it was constituted at the eleventh hour, could possibly combat the toxic tsunami of cultural war, identity politics and micro-targeted fake news.

They lost a major battle. At least they now know this is hardcore, all-out war. To destroy Lula – the world’s foremost political prisoner – the Brazilian elites had to destroy Brazil. Still, Nietzsche always prevails; whatever doesn’t kill you makes you stronger. The vanguard of global resistance against neo-fascism as the higher stage of neoliberalism has now moved south of the Equator. No pasarán.

Oh, and for those liking Bolsonaro to Duterte - or even Trump - here's a collection of quotes comparing the former two. F. e.:

Originally Posted by Rodrigo Duterte
When you are religious, you have to be something of a neutral when it comes to your faith and even when it comes to government because it is really the concept of a republican system that there is a separation of church and state.
Originally Posted by Jair Bolsonaro
God above everything. There is no such thing as this secular state. The state is Christian and the minority will have to change, if they can. The minorities will have to adapt to the position of the majority.

This guy is the real deal.
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Old 30th October 2018, 03:46 AM   #29
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When sanity returns to the US, it might be time for a UN-led invasion if Bolsanaro does what he says he will.
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Old 30th October 2018, 03:48 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
When sanity returns to the US, it might be time for a UN-led invasion if Bolsanaro does what he says he will.
No. Use your own military if you're so concerned.
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Old 30th October 2018, 04:09 AM   #31
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I don't think uke2se has his own little private army....
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Old 30th October 2018, 04:20 AM   #32
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People see that the world is rich and they are poor.

Rich people then blame poor people for the problems of other poor people, because that's simple and easy.
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Old 30th October 2018, 04:50 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
I don't think uke2se has his own little private army....
Correct. That's why I said UN.
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Old 30th October 2018, 06:38 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
When sanity returns to the US, it might be time for a UN-led invasion if Bolsanaro does what he says he will.
Fascism (broadly defined) sucks, but it usually doesn't last more than a one-leader cycle.

They overplay their hand and get killed (Hitler, Mussolini), or so brutal that they get a revolution (Salazar?), or manage to actually set up a conservative and tranquil state but get voted out before or after death (Pinochet and Franco).
I think the last one is because Fascist states are scary, but they are also boring, so young people eventually rebel.

The whole Führer-prinzip is flawed. You get one strong leader with no mechanism for succession.
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Last edited by Eddie Dane; 30th October 2018 at 06:41 AM.
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Old 30th October 2018, 06:40 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
Fascism (broadly defined) sucks, but it usually doesn't last more than a one-leader cycle.

They overplay their hand and get killed (Hitler, Mussolini), or so brutal that they get a revolution (Salazar?), or manage to actually set up a conservative and tranquil state but get voted out before or after death (Pinochet and Franco).

The whole Führer-prinzip is flawed. You get one strong leader with no mechanism for succession.
Franco ruled for 36 years. Long enough for there to be no rainforest left, and a racially cleansed Brazil.
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Old 30th October 2018, 06:51 AM   #36
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Stalin ruled for 30 years and racially cleansed Ukraine.
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Old 30th October 2018, 06:54 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Franco ruled for 36 years. Long enough for there to be no rainforest left, and a racially cleansed Brazil.
Full disclosure - I don't know much about the guy who won and his pronouncements, but how could you "racially cleanse" Brazil? Here's a survey with 136 names for different skin colors, just as an example. Would there just be like 12 albinos left at the end?
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Old 30th October 2018, 06:57 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Franco ruled for 36 years. Long enough for there to be no rainforest left, and a racially cleansed Brazil.
You can't racially cleanse Brazil, those people will start a civil war like no other. I agree on the rainforest, trees don't shoot back.
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Old 30th October 2018, 06:59 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Full disclosure - I don't know much about the guy who won and his pronouncements, but how could you "racially cleanse" Brazil? Here's a survey with 136 names for different skin colors, just as an example. Would there just be like 12 albinos left at the end?
The Rio Carnaval will be just three fat middle-aged white dudes in strings on the back of a pickup truck, swinging their hips to the national anthem.
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Old 30th October 2018, 07:01 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Full disclosure - I don't know much about the guy who won and his pronouncements, but how could you "racially cleanse" Brazil? Here's a survey with 136 names for different skin colors, just as an example. Would there just be like 12 albinos left at the end?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Brazil
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