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Old 13th April 2018, 10:02 AM   #121
jimbob
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
The Russians just don't get it;if you are going to lie, do so with some plausibility.....
Why?

It's far easier to gaslight and it convinces useful idiots.
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Old 13th April 2018, 10:07 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Of course it was a trick question. He did elaborate, it is just nothing that you're supposed to read.

See: http://tass.com/defense/999641
Sorry, was there supposed to be anything at that link?
I was expecting to see evidence.
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Old 13th April 2018, 10:25 AM   #123
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One reason I don't like the militant ,extreme left very much is that ,for all their claims of moral superrity to those on the right, they have no problem supporting a brutal dictatorship if said dictatorship either meets with their ideological approval or they see it as an opponent of the "West", which they consider to be the source of all evil.
I give you a few people posting in this thread as an example.
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Old 13th April 2018, 10:50 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Sorry, was there supposed to be anything at that link?
I was expecting to see evidence.

No, you were expecting no elaboration as the indoctrination you consume told you there wasn't any. That there's nothing you would accept as evidence is self-evident.
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Old 13th April 2018, 11:21 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
The Russians just don't get it;if you are going to lie, do so with some plausibility.....
Oh it's plausible alright,...for the entrenched group of anti-Americans and conspiracy mongers.

Frankly the probably coordinated disinformation campaign about Syria from pro-Russian propagandists is absolutely disgusting, like the recent fake news about children allegedly given acting lessons for the cameras (too vile for me to bother linking to).

But even so I think a majority of these contrarians, even ones working for the Russian government, are simply fed that information and they buy it, riding the wave of distrust of the U.S.
Maybe you're not as optimistic as I am.

Last edited by Venom; 13th April 2018 at 11:22 AM.
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Old 13th April 2018, 11:34 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
I am a skeptic and what I want is reason and truth.

Childlike Empress is quite right that is does not make sense for Assad or even his generals to use chlorine gas. What makes sense is that some organization wants the US to add to the destruction in Syria, or to stay in Syria after Trump said he will pull out. The rebels are one group.

France has proof. What proof? Rebel witnesses? False flags attacks are accompanied by false evidence. The Iraqi "proof" memory seems to be fading.

It is likely a chemical attack happened. The evidence must prove that Syria did it. That almost needs a written command from Assad to the army.

What is happening seems as emotional as "White cop shoots black man in the USA". MUST be a murder because "Black Lives Matter."
I doubt that a chemical attack even happened. The first responders don't have the type of protection they would be wearing if they were going into an area that had just been hit with an unknown chemical weapon. It's pathetic that Westerners are nearly unanimous in their call for bombing Syria into oblivion based on the evidence that's been shown to us.
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Old 13th April 2018, 11:37 AM   #127
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Russia 3 stage response as also seen in Salisbury incident

1 It didn’t happen
2 if it did happen, we didn’t do it
3 you did it
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Old 13th April 2018, 11:43 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Good joke!
I miss your point completely. Please explain.
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Old 13th April 2018, 11:51 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
I doubt that a chemical attack even happened. The first responders don't have the type of protection they would be wearing if they were going into an area that had just been hit with an unknown chemical weapon. It's pathetic that Westerners are nearly unanimous in their call for bombing Syria into oblivion based on the evidence that's been shown to us.
If Russia didn't deny deny deny and use conspiracist talking points and the usual deflection to a he-said-she-said situation, blaming the UK for the chemical attacks, I think the suspicion of their complicity wouldn't be as strong, no?
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Old 13th April 2018, 11:52 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
I miss your point completely. Please explain.
Well, believing in Tarot Cards is not regarded as a sign of skeptical thining....
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Old 13th April 2018, 11:53 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
I doubt that a chemical attack even happened. The first responders don't have the type of protection they would be wearing if they were going into an area that had just been hit with an unknown chemical weapon. It's pathetic that Westerners are nearly unanimous in their call for bombing Syria into oblivion based on the evidence that's been shown to us.
Take it to the Conspiracy Theory section....
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Old 13th April 2018, 11:59 AM   #132
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So the Russians are asserting that Theresa May, Boris Johnson and co. devised and executed a complex scheme to blame the Russians for a staged chemical attack? Has anyone in the Russian government actually met May or Johnson?
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Old 13th April 2018, 12:04 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
So the Russians are asserting that Theresa May, Boris Johnson and co. devised and executed a complex scheme to blame the Russians for a staged chemical attack? Has anyone in the Russian government actually met May or Johnson?
Damn, beat me to it.
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Old 13th April 2018, 12:04 PM   #134
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Whatever the case, a fact-finding group is on its way there right now.

Russian and Syrian security say they will facilitate the mission.

Last edited by Venom; 13th April 2018 at 12:06 PM. Reason: grammar
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Old 13th April 2018, 12:06 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
While you are clearly leaning to one side, you forget about the power of plausible deniability. I could infer that the frustrated Syrian govt with or without Russian complicity used toxic gas to flush out the rebels from their hiding places and simply DENIED it. It wouldn't be unprecedented and it's just as or more likely than your scenario.

And with the unwavering state media and propaganda apparatus of RT, it becomes our word against theirs, let me remind you about how awash in propaganda and smoke that MH17 tragedy was as they simply denied it and put out their conspiracy theories.

So we're back to square one then, to be fair.

Why am I clearly leaning to one side?

Why is the Syrian government frustrated when they were on the point of driving the rebels out? That is the part that does not make sense.

Do you not see that you might be biased? I have no "skin" in this game. Not pro- nor anti- any country. They all have issues.

MH17 was a propaganda war on ALL sides. The Russians are not the only ones who use propaganda.

Here is a country that would not like to see the US leave.

Quote:
http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Ira...mistake-549746

Iran's expanding power in Syria has caused deep alarm in Israel, which is believed to have mounted air strikes in Syria against what it describes as Hezbollah and Iranian targets.

Which is why I find Russia's accusation that Britain is to blame quite hard to figure out. If they were to point fingers, I expected them to blame Israel.

My late wife used the five finger rule. Who stands to gain?

I can only think that Russia might be trying to muddy the waters, and play mind games. Who poisoned Skripal? I have no idea. It is likely the Russians but I am trying to figure out the motivation. Do they need the trouble? Does Russian want a war? If so, Trump had better be careful with military action in Syria.
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Old 13th April 2018, 12:12 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Whatever the case, a fact-finding group is on its way there right now.

Russian and Syrian security say they will facilitate the mission.
What evidence does the fact-finding group expect to find? When they get there it will be over a week since the alleged chemical weapons attack took place. In the unlikely event that they find categorical proof of a chemical weapons attack, they still need to prove who carried out that attack.
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Old 13th April 2018, 12:12 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Well, believing in Tarot Cards is not regarded as a sign of skeptical thining....

I do not have a firm belief but a skeptical hypothesis that they might work in certain circumstance. Based on personal evidence. Public demonstrations do not work.

Am I permanently branded as a woo in all things on this forum? Anyhow, we digress, except for other labels and branding that might come my way. Am I included in the Assad/Putin lover group?
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Old 13th April 2018, 12:25 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
I doubt that a chemical attack even happened. The first responders don't have the type of protection they would be wearing if they were going into an area that had just been hit with an unknown chemical weapon. It's pathetic that Westerners are nearly unanimous in their call for bombing Syria into oblivion based on the evidence that's been shown to us.

That area has no sophisticated equipment whatsoever. The best they have is a nice new shiny red hose. And yes, washing people down is the best way to deal with a chemical attack. Although I would think that one would strip them completely first to avoid washing any toxin off the clothes and onto the skin. And collect the clothes as evidence.

The rebels have been caught fabricating atrocities before. It is one form of warfare. It may have happened because it is easy enough to do under cover of Syrian bombing. Just pump chlorine into the basements, and then claim the cylinders fell from the sky.

But it is also easy enough to stage a fake. The West WANTS to believe Syria and Russia did it. The speed at which they responded with outrage is disconcerting.

I am in South Africa. Well out of the way of any nuclear exchange.
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Old 13th April 2018, 12:26 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Why am I clearly leaning to one side?

Why is the Syrian government frustrated when they were on the point of driving the rebels out? That is the part that does not make sense.

Do you not see that you might be biased? I have no "skin" in this game. Not pro- nor anti- any country. They all have issues.

MH17 was a propaganda war on ALL sides. The Russians are not the only ones who use propaganda.

Here is a country that would not like to see the US leave.
MH17 involved the use of embarrassingly fake graphics on their part, and denying a great Dutch investigation that revealed the real actors. So no, not comparable propaganda at all.

But back on topic, Russia and Iran don't want war I don't believe. It's just escalation at different levels, escalation dominance, but the Russian state security and media apparatus will continue to frame the narrative in such a way that they are allowed to get away with horrible things and accuse the U.S. of being the Big Bad. In Syria supposedly we are supporting all the "head choppers" as Henri McPhee puts it, while the hospital bombers and regime loyalists are the good guys, because they aren't fighting "side by side" with IS. It's almost as if a war can't be fought between more than two opposing sides.

I think Syria, Ukraine, US elections, what have you, need to be seen in context; we need to see the precedent set when Putin first rose to power, and I always like to go back to 1999, but that is for a different time and thread.
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Old 13th April 2018, 12:29 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
What evidence does the fact-finding group expect to find? When they get there it will be over a week since the alleged chemical weapons attack took place. In the unlikely event that they find categorical proof of a chemical weapons attack, they still need to prove who carried out that attack.
I'm asking those questions as well.
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Old 13th April 2018, 12:32 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
If Russia didn't deny deny deny and use conspiracist talking points and the usual deflection to a he-said-she-said situation, blaming the UK for the chemical attacks, I think the suspicion of their complicity wouldn't be as strong, no?
If we had solid evidence that the last time the United States announced we were going to reduce our involvement in Syria, Assad responded by gassing innocent civilians for no reason, I'd be more inclined to believe that he reacted to the latest announcement that we intend to reduce our involvement by doing the same. Since it has been admitted that we don't really know what happened last year, I'm not willing to believe that this year's horror story is real either. And if it is true, so what? We don't overthrow every government that doesn't conform to our sense of morality. Our only concern regarding Syria is stopping Syrians claiming refugee status from entering Europe and sending the ones that have already arrived back home. A strong stable Syria under Assad would do that.
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Old 13th April 2018, 12:58 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
I doubt that a chemical attack even happened. The first responders don't have the type of protection they would be wearing if they were going into an area that had just been hit with an unknown chemical weapon. It's pathetic that Westerners are nearly unanimous in their call for bombing Syria into oblivion based on the evidence that's been shown to us.
What do you expect them to use?
Funny that NBC training back in the 80s involved washing down with water and scrubbing with a brush as the main decontamination method aboard ship.
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Old 13th April 2018, 12:58 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
So the Russians are asserting that Theresa May, Boris Johnson and co. devised and executed a complex scheme to blame the Russians for a staged chemical attack? Has anyone in the Russian government actually met May or Johnson?

No, they know, and expect their audience to know, that the White Helmets are a British propaganda operation, as I told you several times before. That they blame "London" for steering them is probably a last amount of diplomatic courtesy.

Last edited by Childlike Empress; 13th April 2018 at 01:06 PM. Reason: +link
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Old 13th April 2018, 01:01 PM   #144
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If anyone wants to see the actual briefing, it's here with apparently auto-generated English subtitles (press CC button if they don't show up):

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
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Old 13th April 2018, 01:12 PM   #145
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Are there reports from doctors who have seen the videos? Can they tell whether there are chlorine gas symptoms? Where are the bodies? Where are the survivors?

Quote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorine#Use_as_a_weapon

Chlorine gas was also used during the Iraq War in Anbar Province in 2007, with insurgents packing truck bombs with mortar shells and chlorine tanks. The attacks killed two people from the explosives and sickened more than 350. Most of the deaths were caused by the force of the explosions rather than the effects of chlorine since the toxic gas is readily dispersed and diluted in the atmosphere by the blast. In some bombings, over a hundred civilians were hospitalized due to breathing difficulties.

Chlorine gas turns to hydrochloric acid when it contacts water. The two main organs affected are the eyes and the lungs. Did the victims have red and burning eyes? Were the victims coughing blood? Was the foam red with blood?

Have these questions been asked or answered on this forum? In the press?
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Old 13th April 2018, 01:16 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
No, they know, and expect their audience to know, that the White Helmets are a British propaganda operation, as I told you several times before. That they blame "London" for steering them is probably a last amount of diplomatic courtesy.
Oh you mean they expect their audience to be gullible enough to fall for any lie they put out? Got it.
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Old 13th April 2018, 01:24 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Have these questions been asked or answered on this forum? In the press?

You can check out the blog of my ACLOS (the wiki I've linked to several times and am the creator of) colleague Adam Larson, aka Caustic Logic (who is technically a member of this forum but didn't care to renew his account after the move from JREF). He's good on the gory details I myself try to avoid. And as I said before, we had to be dragged to start a page on this as it is so same old, same old.
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Old 13th April 2018, 03:14 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
MH17 was a propaganda war on ALL sides. The Russians are not the only ones who use propaganda.
Really?

The Dutch Safety Board is absolutely an impartial and competent organization who did a hell of a job. Both the Safety Board and after that, the Dutch Public Prosecutor have only been frustrated by the Russian reactions, who both repeatedly asked them for their data, didn't get it and then the Russians simply denied their conclusions.
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Old 13th April 2018, 03:19 PM   #149
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What we are seeing in this thread is what happens when people take a extreme "Anti Establishment" point of view. They end up supporting anybody they see as Sticking It To The Man. In this case, the man is The Western Governments.
That, whatever their flaws..and they have some serious ones..the Westerns Democracies are a hundred times better then anything that the likes of Putin or his puppet Assad have to offer seems beyond them.
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Old 13th April 2018, 03:22 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Of course it was a trick question. He did elaborate, it is just nothing that you're supposed to read.

See: http://tass.com/defense/999641
LOL. From that article:
Quote:
According to Konashenkov, officers of the Russian defense ministry spoke with two Syrian who had taken part in filming the framed-up attack. Both have medical diplomas and work with the emergency department of Doumas hospital. The two men do not conceal their names. They told Russian officers that all those who had been taken to hospital during the filming had no symptoms of exposure to toxic agents.
So why doesn't the article never mention their names?

And if they've taken part in the filming, where's the video?
Quote:
"When the patients were receiving first aid unidentified people burst into the hospital, some were holding video cameras," the spokesman cited them as saying. "These people started shouting, fanning hysteria. They carried hose and douched all present with water crying out that all of them had been exposed to poisonous agents."
Oh, it was others who were filming. Can't keep the story straight? And why do these MDs let unidentified people get into the emergency room?

Cool story bro.
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Old 13th April 2018, 03:23 PM   #151
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What scares me is what if Putin begins to eye Turkey closely. If you begin hearing the words Tsargrad be afraid....
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Old 13th April 2018, 03:38 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
What we are seeing in this thread is what happens when people take a extreme "Anti Establishment" point of view. They end up supporting anybody they see as Sticking It To The Man. In this case, the man is The Western Governments.
That, whatever their flaws..and they have some serious ones..the Westerns Democracies are a hundred times better then anything that the likes of Putin or his puppet Assad have to offer seems beyond them.
No argument from me here.

I only have to question what "we", as western democracies, should be doing right now in or with Syria. Sure, Assad, like has father, is a ruthless dictator who doesn't mind killing a couple of thousands, or tens of thousands, more of his own citizens to keep in power.

But are any of the rebel groups better? ISIS certainly isn't, but they're now running on their last legs. All the other rebel groups are Al-Qaeda like Islamist groups. When those take over, Syria gets from the frying pan into the fire.

The only group that sounds sympathetic to me are the Kurds, and they're now under attack from our "ally" Adolf Erdogan.

I don't see a realistic end game there that leads to a fundamental better situation for the Syrians. Remember also, we invaded Afghanistan 16 years ago and it's still a mess.
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Old 13th April 2018, 04:02 PM   #153
Childlike Empress
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
So why doesn't the article never mention their names?

And if they've taken part in the filming, where's the video?

Watch the presentation.

Unpleasant to see that you are now also in "but..but...but my country are the good guys" mode. One could have expected a better ability to judge the present from someone with that much knowledge of the past.
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Old 13th April 2018, 04:11 PM   #154
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Compared the the filth in Russia they are angels.
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Old 13th April 2018, 04:45 PM   #155
dudalb
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
No argument from me here.

I only have to question what "we", as western democracies, should be doing right now in or with Syria. Sure, Assad, like has father, is a ruthless dictator who doesn't mind killing a couple of thousands, or tens of thousands, more of his own citizens to keep in power.

But are any of the rebel groups better? ISIS certainly isn't, but they're now running on their last legs. All the other rebel groups are Al-Qaeda like Islamist groups. When those take over, Syria gets from the frying pan into the fire.

The only group that sounds sympathetic to me are the Kurds, and they're now under attack from our "ally" Adolf Erdogan.

I don't see a realistic end game there that leads to a fundamental better situation for the Syrians. Remember also, we invaded Afghanistan 16 years ago and it's still a mess.

WIth Afghansitan, there was a clear and present danger in the Taliaban's support of Al Qaida.
and the US really had no choice but to go into Afghanistan.\
Syria is a different story.
There is no good option in Syria, period.
The most dangerous thing is that Isreal, which has carefully avoided getting involved in the SYrian mess, now sees,rightly or wrongly, a imminent threat there. This could really head for an expolision.
God, I hate the Sykes Picot agreement. We are seeing no end of the trouble it caused.

"A British civil servant named Sykes Got Together with a French Civil Servan called Picot"....
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Old 13th April 2018, 04:54 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Watch the presentation.
You mean the one in post #144? I'm sorry, it's got no English subtitles, only Russian ones, and I lost track after "gospoda".

Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Unpleasant to see that you are now also in "but..but...but my country are the good guys" mode. One could have expected a better ability to judge the present from someone with that much knowledge of the past.
I think there rare several people in this thread with more knowledge of history than I have; at least one with a degree in it.

I'm not sure what you're referencing to with your comment "my country are the good guys"? The MH17 remark? Both the Dutch Safety Board and the Prosecutor have a long-standing reputation and tradition of political impartiality.
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Old 13th April 2018, 04:57 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
As a skeptic who believes in fairies and everything I read in the National Enquirer and that I see on Press TV and RT, I think it makes sense.
What did the UK call this Syrian Operation?

Operation Exporter 2?

(I wonder if anybody will get that joke...)
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Old 13th April 2018, 07:23 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Watch the presentation.

Unpleasant to see that you are now also in "but..but...but my country are the good guys" mode. One could have expected a better ability to judge the present from someone with that much knowledge of the past.
Again with the straw man. Does nuance exist anymore?
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Old 13th April 2018, 09:57 PM   #159
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Now that the bombing of Syrian targets by the USA, France, and UK has taken place, will the team of chemical weapons investigators still go ahead with their planned visit?
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Old 13th April 2018, 10:28 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
<snip>

He has been extremely sane on this.

<snip>
Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
<snip>

I feel a lot better since Trump's yesterday tweet

<snip>

How do ya like him now?
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