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Old 1st March 2021, 07:37 PM   #761
theprestige
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Originally Posted by SleepingWeasle View Post
I agree that she should stand trial,. But certainly not for any of the reasons claimed in Darats analogy.
That isn't quite what I asked. Do you think she shouldn't be allowed to be present at her trial?

Quote:
And no, she certainly shouldn't lose her citizenship in my opinion.
Glad we got that cleared up.

Quote:
Just because I agree with the end result doesn't mean I agree with the nonsensical way people "reason" themselves into arriving at that conclusion. The world isn't divided into "Us vs them" no matter how bad some people want that to be the case.
You got ridiculously and personally abusive on this subject, for no good reason. This was very much an "us vs them" scenario, of your own making.
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Old 1st March 2021, 07:38 PM   #762
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
And then I admit my mistake, and ask you what your position is. Don't overlook that part of our conversation.
If you're being sincere, then I truly apologize for my short temperdness.

My position is that there is no way ISIS were in control of her in any way BEFORE she left.

A
My additional position is that the moment some posters see someone questioning any part of their narritive, they assign the opposite of every beliefe they have to that poster.
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Old 1st March 2021, 07:39 PM   #763
theprestige
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Originally Posted by SleepingWeasle View Post
Bullcrap. It has been claimed that ISIS was already in control of her mind and body before she betrayed her family and country. Why the constant need to lie?
It's been stipulated that she was probably groomed before she left to join ISIS, following a well-known and common grooming pattern used by human traffickers and religious zealots.

Why the constant personal abuse?
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Old 1st March 2021, 07:40 PM   #764
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That isn't quite what I asked. Do you think she shouldn't be allowed to be present at her trial?


Glad we got that cleared up.


You got ridiculously and personally abusive on this subject, for no good reason. This was very much an "us vs them" scenario, of your own making.
Show it, or stop lying.

And, of course I think she should be present. Where have I argued anything else? Seriously, please stop making up my positions,
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Old 1st March 2021, 07:41 PM   #765
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's been stipulated that she was probably groomed before she left to join ISIS, following a well-known and common grooming pattern used by human traffickers and religious zealots.

Why the constant personal abuse?

People claim lots of crap. Where is the evidence they were in control of her? Seriously, do you not see how you constantly make things up about my position?
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Old 1st March 2021, 07:45 PM   #766
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Originally Posted by SleepingWeasle View Post
If you're being sincere, then I truly apologize for my short temperdness.
Boop to that. Apology not accepted. Your short temperedness was egregious and uncalled-for. You owe me an apology whether or not I admit to any mistakes on my part. True contrition cannot be conditioned on the sincere acts of anyone else.

Quote:
My position is that there is no way ISIS were in control of her in any way BEFORE she left.
My position is that it's possible, and even likely, that she was being influenced and manipulated by supporters of ISIS, who took advantage of her inexperience to get her to do things a more mature and independent adult would not have chosen to do.

I'm not saying we know for sure this happened, but I do think it's reasonable to assume it probably did, and take that into account when judging the enormity of her crimes, and the severity of her punishment.

You seem to be asserting that this could not possibly have happened.

Quote:
My additional position is that the moment some posters see someone questioning any part of their narritive, they assign the opposite of every beliefe they have to that poster.
Yes, I've seen that dynamic play out repeatedly over the past couple pages.
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Old 1st March 2021, 07:49 PM   #767
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Boop to that. Apology not accepted. Your short temperedness was egregious and uncalled-for. You owe me an apology whether or not I admit to any mistakes on my part. True contrition cannot be conditioned on the sincere acts of anyone else.


My position is that it's possible, and even likely, that she was being influenced and manipulated by supporters of ISIS, who took advantage of her inexperience to get her to do things a more mature and independent adult would not have chosen to do.

I'm not saying we know for sure this happened, but I do think it's reasonable to assume it probably did, and take that into account when judging the enormity of her crimes, and the severity of her punishment.

You seem to be asserting that this could not possibly have happened.


Yes, I've seen that dynamic play out repeatedly over the past couple pages.

I don't owe you squat. You repeatedly make up positions you fantasize I have.
"Influenced and manipulated" is not controled by, which is what I argued against.

Show me where I have asserted that this could not possibly have happened. Statements like that are why I call you out on your repeated lies.
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Old 1st March 2021, 07:51 PM   #768
theprestige
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You got ridiculously and personally abusive on this subject, for no good reason. This was very much an "us vs them" scenario, of your own making.
Originally Posted by SleepingWeasle View Post
Show it, or stop lying.
Here you go:

Originally Posted by SleepingWeasle View Post
Why the obvious lying? If truth is on your side, you shouldn't need to stretch it so much.
Originally Posted by SleepingWeasle View Post
Declaring war on another country or coulture changes all kinds of things ( weather right or wrong) as long as your side is the winners. I honestly can't believe this is news to you.
Originally Posted by SleepingWeasle View Post
Really? You really believe that? Please show how every crime is a betrayal of one's country. Of course, I know you're being dishonest and won't.
Originally Posted by SleepingWeasle View Post
Why do you feel the need to lie so much?
Originally Posted by SleepingWeasle View Post
Her guilt and punishment isn't important to me. Why do you insist on dishonesty?
Originally Posted by SleepingWeasle View Post
Clearly, you can't even be bothered to understand your own arguements.
Originally Posted by SleepingWeasle View Post
If only I argued that being a minor was usefuly in sentencing. Oh wait, I did! Why do you continue to be dishonest? Are you unwilling, or unable to accept that some people have different opinions than you on topics without needing them to disagree with every point of a topic?
Originally Posted by SleepingWeasle View Post
Ignoring all the other idiocy above...
Originally Posted by SleepingWeasle View Post
Bullcrap. [...] Why the constant need to lie?
Almost every post you've made in this thread includes vehement personal attacks.

ETA:
Originally Posted by SleepingWeasle View Post
Show me where I have asserted that this could not possibly have happened. [...] Statements like that are why I call you out on your repeated lies.
ETA:
Originally Posted by SleepingWeasle View Post
Let's try some honesty this time please.

Last edited by theprestige; 1st March 2021 at 08:42 PM.
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Old 1st March 2021, 07:54 PM   #769
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Originally Posted by SleepingWeasle View Post
"Influenced and manipulated" is not controled by, which is what I argued against.

Show me where I have asserted that this could not possibly have happened.
Here you go:

Originally Posted by SleepingWeasle View Post
My position is that there is no way ISIS were in control of her in any way BEFORE she left.
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Old 1st March 2021, 07:56 PM   #770
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and things just keep trolling along.......
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Old 1st March 2021, 07:56 PM   #771
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Those two statements don't fully contradict though, as long as you ensure that "influence and manipulate" are not part of "control". I say that they are the mechanisms of controlling a person's mind, when the body is not yet in range. But I'm not feeding the troll anymore.
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Last edited by Silly Green Monkey; 1st March 2021 at 07:58 PM. Reason: acknowledge another line in the quote
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Old 1st March 2021, 07:58 PM   #772
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I dunno. It just seems like a really weird hill to die on so violently, even for a troll.

Last edited by theprestige; 1st March 2021 at 08:21 PM.
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Old 1st March 2021, 07:58 PM   #773
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Here you go:
LOL
Do you not understand opposing arguements without making up positions? If you really think you're in the right, why the constant need to make things up, and misrepresent my position?
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Old 1st March 2021, 08:00 PM   #774
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I dunno. It just seems like a really weird hill to die on so violently, even for a troll.
Sure, it may seem like a weird hill to die on, but that doesn't matter to the things I have argued. Or, you can show me how the positions I have acutaly claimed are wrong...
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Old 1st March 2021, 08:05 PM   #775
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Originally Posted by SleepingWeasle View Post
If only I argued that being a minor was usefuly in sentencing. Oh wait, I did! Why do you continue to be dishonest? Are you unwilling, or unable to accept that some people have different opinions than you on topics without needing them to disagree with every point of a topic?
You keep arguing that people with a different position are being dishonest. I and they are not doing that. And FYI, me positing an opposing argument does NOT mean I'm saying you are not entitled to your opinion. So quit putting words in my mouth.
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Old 1st March 2021, 08:08 PM   #776
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
You keep arguing that people with a different position are being dishonest. I and they are not doing that. And FYI, me positing an opposing argument does NOT mean I'm saying you are not entitled to your opinion. So quit putting words in my mouth.
Where have I done that?

I have called people dishonest for trying to assign beliefs to me which I have not claimed. Where have I put any words in your mouth?
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Old 1st March 2021, 08:14 PM   #777
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Originally Posted by SleepingWeasle View Post
Where have I done that?

I have called people dishonest for trying to assign beliefs to me which I have not claimed. Where have I put any words in your mouth?
Prestige just posted a pretty fair list on post #768 so I won't bother.
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Old 1st March 2021, 08:16 PM   #778
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768 is me denying the claims prestige pretends I have. Show me where I have claimed any of that nonsense. But specifically, you claimed I put words in your mouth. Where did that happen?
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Old 1st March 2021, 08:22 PM   #779
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Okay, now I'm convinced.
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Old 1st March 2021, 08:31 PM   #780
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Originally Posted by SleepingWeasle View Post
If only I argued that being a minor was usefuly in sentencing. Oh wait, I did! Why do you continue to be dishonest? Are you unwilling, or unable to accept that some people have different opinions than you on topics without needing them to disagree with every point of a topic?
Originally Posted by SleepingWeasle View Post
768 is me denying the claims prestige pretends I have. Show me where I have claimed any of that nonsense. But specifically, you claimed I put words in your mouth. Where did that happen?
See above. Do you post and forget what you post a second later?
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Old 1st March 2021, 08:40 PM   #781
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
See above. Do you post and forget what you post a second later?
Words have meaning. Where have I put words in your mouth? What have I posted and forgot a second later? Let's try some honesty this time please.

Edit:
Corrected "out" to "put"

Last edited by SleepingWeasle; 1st March 2021 at 08:45 PM.
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Old 1st March 2021, 08:55 PM   #782
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Originally Posted by SleepingWeasle View Post
Words have meaning. Where have I put words in your mouth? What have I posted and forgot a second later? Let's try some honesty this time please.

Edit:
Corrected "out" to "put"
I'm done with you Weasle. You don't seem to comprehend English. Enjoy your day.
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Old 2nd March 2021, 12:49 AM   #783
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Originally Posted by SleepingWeasle View Post
Pimps have declared war against our countries? If not, I don't see how your silly comparison makes any sense.
It might be silly in your view, which you are entitled to hold. However, all the other advance western nations have no problems bringing the children back and prosecuting the mothers:

Quote:
Trials of Swedish Isis women to begin next year, says Kurdish representative - the Foreign Ministry is not aware of any criminal suspicions against Finns
Finland has negotiated the repatriation of Finns in the al-Hol camp.
Oct 2020 HS (paywall)

300 Swedes are on their way back to Sweden to face justice, including quite a few children.

Quote:
About 300 people left SWEDEN for Syria and Iraq with the intention of joining the extremist Islamic terrorist organization Isis. According to security police Säpo, about half of those who left have returned to Sweden.

The Public Prosecutor's Office's department investigating international and organized crime has opened a total of a dozen preliminary investigations into the returnees, the Swedish broadcaster Sveriges Radio's news editor Ekot said on Tuesday. The criminal offenses are serious: the investigation includes war crimes and crimes against humanity.

- I think I have found indications of (suspected) on the links between Isis-state. That is why I think there is reason to suspect crimes, Prosecutor Thomas Ahlstrand tells the radio.
IS google translate


Amazing the UK which once had the best justice system in the world has chickened out and reverted to knee-jerk politics instead.
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Old 2nd March 2021, 01:09 AM   #784
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Originally Posted by SleepingWeasle View Post
Pimps have declared war against our countries? If not, I don't see how your silly comparison makes any sense.
We are at threat of the country being invaded by this young woman?
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Old 2nd March 2021, 01:18 AM   #785
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Originally Posted by SleepingWeasle View Post
People claim lots of crap. Where is the evidence they were in control of her? Seriously, do you not see how you constantly make things up about my position?
She left the country to join up.
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Old 2nd March 2021, 12:20 PM   #786
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Anyway, can anyone make a coherent argument for why she should not be allowed to be present for her trial, or why her citizenship should be revoked?

Here's the argument I would make, if she had been an adult at the time: Pledging allegiance to some other regime that's at war with your country voids your right to citizenship in that country. If that other regime can't make it as a sovereign nation-state, that's your problem. If that regime loses the war without ever becoming sovereign, then you are stateless by your own hand. Your former country owes you nothing.

As a separate issue, stateless refugees from a failed regime are a humanitarian problem to be solved collectively by the nations that care to solve it. This would probably end up with a consensus agreement between those nations that refugees would be repatriated to their former homes, which would then deal with them according to rule of law. Such refugees could petition to be repatriated to somewhere else, but that would be entirely up to their desired home to decide whether to grant the petition.

With very few exceptions (none of which occur to me right now), none of these refugees should be tried in absentia for any alleged crimes. If you have the jurisdiction to put them on trial, you have the responsibility to bring them to trial.

However, in cases where the "foreign fighter" was a minor at the time of their absconding, the automatic loss of citizenship should be waived. A trial should be held (with the accused present), and if the accused recants their allegiance to the foreign regime, that should be the end of the citizenship question.

I see nothing in this particular scenario that makes me think I should reconsider. Does anyone else have anything that might change my mind? Or that I should at least give some serious thought?

ETA: One reason not to bring her home for trial just occurred to me.
If ISIS taught her psychic powers, and if she gets within 1,000 km of the Prime Minister, there's a risk she could end up ruling the country by proxy.

Last edited by theprestige; 2nd March 2021 at 12:22 PM.
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Old 2nd March 2021, 01:01 PM   #787
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She could groom others?
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Old 2nd March 2021, 01:08 PM   #788
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
She could groom others?
That seems more like a post-trial problem. Keeping her detained pending trial would mostly address that.

Also, if it were up to me, contact tracing and communications monitoring would be conditions of her probation. Assuming her sentence extended to allowing her to rejoin society in some capacity. I'm not worried enough about the grooming risk to consider banning her from the country during her trial.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 12:19 PM   #789
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Anyway, can anyone make a coherent argument for why she should not be allowed to be present for her trial, or why her citizenship should be revoked?
It makes good press from the point of view of a godawful Tory government playing to a populace educated largely by tabloid 'journalism'?
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Old 3rd March 2021, 12:21 PM   #790
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
It makes good press from the point of view of a godawful Tory government playing to a populace educated largely by tabloid 'journalism'?
Okay, a coherent argument that doesn't reduce to partisan political catchphrases? If nothing else, there's a number of people in this thread who seem fairly excited about keeping her out of the country. Are you suggesting they're all dupes of tabloid journalism and a Tory government?

Last edited by theprestige; 3rd March 2021 at 12:23 PM.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 12:23 PM   #791
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Okay, a coherent argument that doesn't reduce to partisan political catchphrases?
Then, er...

No?
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Old 3rd March 2021, 12:24 PM   #792
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Okay, a coherent argument that doesn't reduce to partisan political catchphrases? If nothing else, there's a number of people in this thread who seem fairly excited about keeping her out of the country. Are you suggesting they're all dupes of tabloid journalism and a Tory government?

I'll be honest, I haven't read the thread, so I can't speak for them.

I'll put a tenner down on mine being the 'why' of it though.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 12:24 PM   #793
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Then, er...

No?
Thanks, but I'm actually interested in an attempt at explanation from one of the anti-return folks.
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