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Old 14th May 2019, 02:24 PM   #2241
abaddon
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Originally Posted by alexi_drago View Post
Can someone draw a diagram of where these pushing forces of the big flamey bit and the atmosphere occur and how those forces are transferred to the vehicle please.
Mass is hurtling out the nozzle due to the combustion of propellants. Since those have nowhere to go except for out the nozzle, there must be an opposite force per Newton and that force is exerted on the rocket.

And you need a diagram to demonstrate this? When childrens diagrams have already been posted? Surely you cannot be claiming that your understanding is below the level of what a child understands, right?

I am sitting at a desk right now in my home, on an admittedly luxurious leather office wheely chair. By now it is a little old and battered, but I do not replace it because it is really comfy. If I exert a force on the desk, what do you think happens? According to your claim, nothing should happen at all. Do you want to stand by that claim? Really?
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Old 14th May 2019, 02:34 PM   #2242
smartcooky
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Mass is hurtling out the nozzle due to the combustion of propellants. Since those have nowhere to go except for out the nozzle, there must be an opposite force per Newton and that force is exerted on the rocket.

And you need a diagram to demonstrate this? When childrens diagrams have already been posted? Surely you cannot be claiming that your understanding is below the level of what a child understands, right?

I am sitting at a desk right now in my home, on an admittedly luxurious leather office wheely chair. By now it is a little old and battered, but I do not replace it because it is really comfy. If I exert a force on the desk, what do you think happens? According to your claim, nothing should happen at all. Do you want to stand by that claim? Really?

Am I the only one who understands that this is not what alexi_drago is asking for. (see my post #2240)
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Old 14th May 2019, 02:46 PM   #2243
p0lka
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Mass is hurtling out the nozzle due to the combustion of propellants. Since those have nowhere to go except for out the nozzle, there must be an opposite force per Newton and that force is exerted on the rocket.

And you need a diagram to demonstrate this? When childrens diagrams have already been posted? Surely you cannot be claiming that your understanding is below the level of what a child understands, right?

I am sitting at a desk right now in my home, on an admittedly luxurious leather office wheely chair. By now it is a little old and battered, but I do not replace it because it is really comfy. If I exert a force on the desk, what do you think happens? According to your claim, nothing should happen at all. Do you want to stand by that claim? Really?
alexi_drago isn't the OP, that's Gingervytes.

do you know what goes with luxurious leather? Whisky.

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Old 14th May 2019, 02:52 PM   #2244
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Seems to be a little hitch in its get-along at the end. At least on my screen.
Yeah, it bounces off the right of the screen. I was going to fix it but I quite liked it.
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Old 14th May 2019, 02:58 PM   #2245
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
That doesn't answer what alexi_drago is asking, which is...
The claim has been made that rockets don't work unless there is atmosphere for the rocket exhaust to push against. If the claim is true, the pushing forces at the interface of the rocket exhaust and atmosphere ought to be quantifiable and measurable, and a theory of exactly how this happens needs to be presented. The claimant needs to be able to draw a diagram (perhaps a vector diagram) showing how those forces interact, and how they diminish to zero as the rocket climbs and the atmospheric density decreases. The claimant should be able to work out and present a formula to show mathematically how this happens. The formula needs to be provable with consistent results at every level of thrust and atmospheric density from 1 bar to 0 bar.

Seems to me that this diagram is what alexi-drago is asking for. i.e. if atmosphere is required, when the exhaust pushes against it, what connects the escaping gases back to the rocket?


NOTE: The formula should also show that Newtons Third Law of motion either plays no part in the acceleration of the rocket, or that its influence diminishes as the atmospheric density decreases, until there are no forces at play in a vacuum. The claimant needs to prove that this happens, or the claim fails.
I will freely admit that I am unfamiliar with alexi_drago's posting style and was unable to discern whether alexi_drago actually wanted a visual diagram (in order to understand better the gas-particle-nozzle-rocket interface) or that alexi_drago was cleverly agreeing with Robin and adding a further dig at the OP in an "Oh, if only there was a diagram that showed such force interactions in a simplified diagram freely available on the internet" kind of way.
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Old 14th May 2019, 03:05 PM   #2246
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
I will freely admit that I am unfamiliar with alexi_drago's posting style and was unable to discern whether alexi_drago actually wanted a visual diagram (in order to understand better the gas-particle-nozzle-rocket interface) or that alexi_drago was cleverly agreeing with Robin and adding a further dig at the OP in an "Oh, if only there was a diagram that showed such force interactions in a simplified diagram freely available on the internet" kind of way.
I'm sure it was the latter

Essentially, if rockets really do move because of the exhaust pushing against the atmosphere, then it ought to be possible to scientifically and mathematically prove this. It would require a formula that explains

a. the exhaust/atmosphere interaction
b. the connection back from the exhaust/atmosphere interaction to the rocket
c. the influence, if any, of Newton's Third Law of Motion, and how that influence diminishes with the lessening of atmospheric pressure.

Its not enough to just say that its not Newton's Third Law but its the exhaust pushing against atmosphere - the claimant most prove it.
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Old 14th May 2019, 03:17 PM   #2247
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Originally Posted by alexi_drago View Post
Can someone draw a diagram of where these pushing forces of the big flamey bit and the atmosphere occur and how those forces are transferred to the vehicle please.
For the simple tube rocket it is fairly obvious.

For a more sophisticated rocket I have been on the lookout for a good diagram of how the shape relates exhaust velocity to forward momentum. I could do a rough diagram of how I think it works.
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Old 14th May 2019, 03:36 PM   #2248
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I assumed alexi_drago's request was in earnest. The simple diagrams have already been made available, but I sense that he and others want to know the more nuanced relationship between the two terms in the rocket equation, and a graphical reconciliation of the two trees that Gingervytes' critics seem like they're barking up.

Unfortunately when you shift into nuance, diagrams start to make less sense until you've laid unshakable foundations in more advanced physics. The rocket equation is more nuanced than a simple formulation that follows from Newton's third law. But it's less nuanced than the actual fluid models that depict the underlying behavior and drive the design exercises. As in all engineering, there is always more detail to pursue if you're actually trying to build it better. The next most expressive model treats Pe not as a scalar but as a rank-1 tensor. It also blurs the distinction (properly) between "expanding gas in the thrust chamber" and "expanding gas through the nozzle."
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Old 14th May 2019, 05:16 PM   #2249
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Then I must encourage the reader to seek out one of the finest works on rocketry ever produced. I am, of course, referring to Prof. Axxman300's Tour de Force treatise "Of Rocketry and other Crotchety Things". In this case, example number four.

Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post

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Old 14th May 2019, 05:20 PM   #2250
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Originally Posted by alexi_drago View Post
Can someone draw a diagram of where these pushing forces of the big flamey bit and the atmosphere occur and how those forces are transferred to the vehicle please.
Code:
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             ^   |
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<------------X-->|
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             v   |
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Old 14th May 2019, 06:49 PM   #2251
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Hey, Gingervytes! Some here have suggested you are probably a flat-earther! I don't know enough to tell for sure, so can you enlighten me?
Do you think the Earth is a spheroid in orbit around the sun, which is a star somewhere on the outer reaches of the "Milky Way" galaxy, one of a gazillion such galaxies in the universe?
Or is it perhaps a sphere which is the center of the universe, with everything else revolving around it on assorted epicycles and such, as decreed by God Almighty?
Or is it a disc resting on the backs of four elephants, which are standing on the great turtle A'Tuin?
Ok, scratch that last part. Is it a spheroid, or a disc?
Be advised: I'll be happy to PM this to you if you say you didn't see it.
Oh, by the way: Do you agree the pressure increases when you descend into the sea? Do you even agree with what I've said pressure is?
Enquiring minds want to know.
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Old 14th May 2019, 08:08 PM   #2252
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
For the simple tube rocket it is fairly obvious.

For a more sophisticated rocket I have been on the lookout for a good diagram of how the shape relates exhaust velocity to forward momentum. I could do a rough diagram of how I think it works.
I'm guessing the outer part is a parabola with the hole where the focus would be, this would get all forward momentum out of the molecules exiting through the center of the hole but with increasing inefficiency as the molecules exit further from the center of the hole. Presumably the inner part is then designed to counteract this inefficiency that exists as you go further from the center of the hole, with possibly another parabola?
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Old 14th May 2019, 11:42 PM   #2253
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
So when wind blows on the back of your head, why canít you feel the air in front of you push off your face as it moves away from you?
You can. Get your facts right.

Anyone who has tried to light a cigarette on a windy day knows that wind flows around your head and ďoff ď your face and will blow the lighter/match out.
You have to cup your hands around the flame to block this wind flow around your head.

Have you never been outside?
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Old 15th May 2019, 12:30 AM   #2254
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
So when wind blows on the back of your head, why canít you feel the air in front of you push off your face as it moves away from you?
I am not sure how is this related, but I have an answer for you anyway.
"Because your head is not aerodynamically shaped".
The airflow detaches from the surface because of its dynamics and creates an area of small disorganised vortexes behind the object.
A streamlined object allows the airflow stay attached all the way without separation from the object and there will be uninterrupted laminar flow detectable immediately behind the object.
More from any sources about dynamic of a wing - Nasa has quite a few pages about this issue.
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Old 15th May 2019, 02:51 AM   #2255
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Code:
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             ^   |
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<------------X-->|
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             v   |
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Gingervites thinks that the reason rockets take off from the ground but don't work in space is that the rocket exhaust can push against the atmosphere, but there's no atmosphere in space for it to push against. So alexi_drago was asking Gingervites how that's supposed to work.

He's not asking how actual rockets work. He's asking how Gingervites' false version of rockets are supposed to work in the atmosphere by pushing off the air.
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Old 15th May 2019, 03:09 AM   #2256
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Gingervites thinks that the reason rockets take off from the ground but don't work in space is that the rocket exhaust can push against the atmosphere, but there's no atmosphere in space for it to push against. So alexi_drago was asking Gingervites how that's supposed to work.

He's not asking how actual rockets work. He's asking how Gingervites' false version of rockets are supposed to work in the atmosphere by pushing off the air.
At last, someone else who gets what alexi was asking! I thought I was the only one, so I gave up.
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Old 15th May 2019, 03:15 AM   #2257
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
At last, someone else who gets what alexi was asking! I thought I was the only one, so I gave up.
Yeah, after your post I figured everyone else would catch on, but...
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Old 15th May 2019, 05:01 AM   #2258
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Oh and what about take-off. The gases push off of SOLID GROUND (one word) and therefore rockets are much faster at take-off than later on when there is only atmosphere.


(Also the launch pad is flat and when we extrapolate to the entire planet then BOOM Flat Earth.)
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Old 15th May 2019, 05:27 AM   #2259
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Originally Posted by MetalPig View Post
(Also the launch pad is flat and when we extrapolate to the entire planet then BOOM Flat Earth.)
Woah.
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Old 15th May 2019, 05:41 AM   #2260
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What would happen to a champagne bottle if the cork was taken out in the vacuum of space?

https://i.imgur.com/kYi99Jh.mp4

https://i.imgur.com/e6Tpyp7.gifv

According to the "Rockets don't work in space" crowd the bottle would just hang there motionless as the champagne spewed out. According to anyone with a remedial understanding of physics the bottle would be propelled in the opposite direction of the liquid being expelled from the bottle.

This third video doesn't do anything to advance the topic, but it came up when I was looking for videos of champagne bottles being shot around. It seemed a waste not to post it. https://i.imgur.com/5wKDkCN.mp4
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Old 15th May 2019, 06:03 AM   #2261
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
I have yet to see a Flat Earth explanation for the region where Sigma Octantis is visible.

https://i.imgur.com/kIejjco.png

Gingervytes, can YOU explain why Sigma Octantis is visible where it is?
Oh, and while you're at it, please explain why an observer outside that line observes the Moon upside-down in comparison to an observer inside the line. I always wondered about that.
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Old 15th May 2019, 06:11 AM   #2262
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Originally Posted by erlando View Post
Oh, and while you're at it, please explain why an observer outside that line observes the Moon upside-down in comparison to an observer inside the line. I always wondered about that.
According to the model, the moon is above the line, so anyone outside the line WOULD see the moon upside down compared to being inside the line.

The model is still a load of hogwash though.
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Old 15th May 2019, 06:25 AM   #2263
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
According to the model, the moon is above the line, so anyone outside the line WOULD see the moon upside down compared to being inside the line.

The model is still a load of hogwash though.
Indeed. The awkward question is where should someone on the line look to watch the moon rise and set. Since the line is curved, it's clearly not East or West respectively.
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Old 15th May 2019, 09:30 AM   #2264
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
At last, someone else who gets what alexi was asking! I thought I was the only one, so I gave up.
Yeah, I totally misread his comment.
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Old 15th May 2019, 10:09 AM   #2265
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No posts by GV for three days now, but we probably shouldn't get our hopes up. Perhaps he's trying to figure out what causes water pressure at the bottom of a ship.
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Old 15th May 2019, 10:48 AM   #2266
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
No posts by GV for three days now, but we probably shouldn't get our hopes up. Perhaps he's trying to figure out what causes water pressure at the bottom of a ship.
Nah, probably just waiting for the posts to die down a bit before lobbing in fresh nonsense.
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Old 15th May 2019, 11:07 AM   #2267
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Originally Posted by MetalPig View Post
Oh and what about take-off. The gases push off of SOLID GROUND (one word) and therefore rockets are much faster at take-off than later on when there is only atmosphere.


(Also the launch pad is flat and when we extrapolate to the entire planet then BOOM Flat Earth.)
But what happens when you use the douchenozzle?
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Old 15th May 2019, 11:12 AM   #2268
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
You can. Get your facts right.

Anyone who has tried to light a cigarette on a windy day knows that wind flows around your head and ďoff ď your face and will blow the lighter/match out.
You have to cup your hands around the flame to block this wind flow around your head.

Have you never been outside?
This can also cause unpleasant results when urinating outdoors in a strong wind. This applies primarily to males. It is fairly obvious that urinating facing directly into a strong wind is a bad idea. It is somewhat less obvious that facing directly downwind is also a bad idea (until you actually try it). The swirling currents will cause results unpleasantly similar to urinating directly upwind. The proper direction to face is just slightly downwind of crosswind.
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Old 15th May 2019, 11:14 AM   #2269
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
Nah, probably just waiting for the posts to die down a bit before lobbing in fresh nonsense.
No. More likely he will recycle the same nonsense. He really doesn't have anything else.
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Old 15th May 2019, 12:11 PM   #2270
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
No. More likely he will recycle the same nonsense. He really doesn't have anything else.
True, but I'd rather not contemplate how many times Gingervytes has recycled content pulled from their lower abdomen.
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Old 15th May 2019, 02:12 PM   #2271
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Originally Posted by alexi_drago View Post
Can someone draw a diagram of where these pushing forces of the big flamey bit and the atmosphere occur and how those forces are transferred to the vehicle please.
Get a balloon. Blow up the balloon. Instead of tying the end off, let it go.
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Old 15th May 2019, 02:54 PM   #2272
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
No posts by GV for three days now, but we probably shouldn't get our hopes up. Perhaps he's trying to figure out what causes water pressure at the bottom of a ship.
Or diligently trying to figure out how the nonexistence of tigers in India fits into the grand conspiracy.
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Old 15th May 2019, 03:18 PM   #2273
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
You can. Get your facts right.

Anyone who has tried to light a cigarette on a windy day knows that wind flows around your head and ďoff ď your face and will blow the lighter/match out.
You have to cup your hands around the flame to block this wind flow around your head.

Have you never been outside?
Then why is it if I turn away from the blowing wind I can light the cigarette?
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Old 15th May 2019, 03:19 PM   #2274
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Get a balloon. Blow up the balloon. Instead of tying the end off, let it go.
It doesnít eliminate the possibility of it pushing off the atmosphere. So Iím sure you didnít watch the balloon car experiment.
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Old 15th May 2019, 03:21 PM   #2275
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
So Iím sure you didnít watch the balloon car experiment.
I'm sure you aren't able to answer any of my questions about that experiment.
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Old 15th May 2019, 03:22 PM   #2276
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
What would happen to a champagne bottle if the cork was taken out in the vacuum of space?

https://i.imgur.com/kYi99Jh.mp4

https://i.imgur.com/e6Tpyp7.gifv

According to the "Rockets don't work in space" crowd the bottle would just hang there motionless as the champagne spewed out. According to anyone with a remedial understanding of physics the bottle would be propelled in the opposite direction of the liquid being expelled from the bottle.

This third video doesn't do anything to advance the topic, but it came up when I was looking for videos of champagne bottles being shot around. It seemed a waste not to post it. https://i.imgur.com/5wKDkCN.mp4

Itís pushing off the atmosphere.
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Old 15th May 2019, 03:22 PM   #2277
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
Then why is it if I turn away from the blowing wind I can light the cigarette?
It is irrelevant. Address the real problems if you still wanna play.

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Old 15th May 2019, 03:24 PM   #2278
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
It doesnít eliminate the possibility of it pushing off the atmosphere. So Iím sure you didnít watch the balloon car experiment.
Ya. A 700W vacuum cleaner can overcome a toy balloon.

Explain how accelerating the gasses out of the rocket does not produce a force.

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Old 15th May 2019, 03:25 PM   #2279
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
Itís pushing off the atmosphere.
No.

You already conceded that gas from a balloon popping in space near a free-body surface would exert some pressure on it. While you argued that the magnitude of the force would be extremely small, you nevertheless already conceded that there is no need for an intervening medium. Having thus conceded that an atmosphere is unnecessary, your claim here fails by your own admission.
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Old 15th May 2019, 03:25 PM   #2280
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
Then why is it if I turn away from the blowing wind I can light the cigarette?
Did my beautiful post with the nice drawings get wasted on you again?
You should give up smoking anyway...
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