ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Facebook incidents , Facebook issues , free speech issues , internet incidents

Reply
Old 23rd April 2019, 10:54 PM   #361
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 11,377
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Assuming that there exists somebody who is wise enough and incorruptible enough to decide what information the 5% can be exposed to (assuming that this is not a made up statistic) you haven't made a case for trying to suppress this information.

Can you imagine what would happen if governments attempted to make dissenting opinions about vaccinations illegal? Even reasonable people would begin to suspect that a conspiracy was afoot. That 5% of people who were antivaxers would surely rise.

You are proposing tactics similar to those used in the "war" against drugs.

You seem to be confused as to what we are discussing here.... so let me make it clear for you...
"what would happen if governments attempted to make dissenting opinions about vaccinations illegal?"
Outrage... a clear violation of antivaxers' 1A rights
"what would happen if social media platforms attempted to make dissenting opinions about vaccinations outside their terms and conditions?
Nothing. Its their absolute right to choose what they do and do not allow on their platform.
__________________
#THEYAREUS
The Mueller Report must be released to Congress in full - If Trump has nothing to hide, then he should also have nothing to fear!

Last edited by smartcooky; 23rd April 2019 at 10:56 PM.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd April 2019, 11:49 PM   #362
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 14,310
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
You seem to be confused as to what we are discussing here....
Unless I am reading Eddie Dane wrong, he is arguing for more than just editorial discretion by social media sites.
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th April 2019, 12:11 AM   #363
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,610
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Facebook also shut down "venezuela analysis" (leftwing, anti-voiolence page) and Occupy London's facebook page.
I'm sure they did.

__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th April 2019, 12:12 AM   #364
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,610
Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
Evidently, I can listen to hours of right-wing podcasts without hating Jews, laugh my ass off at Alex Jones and still not think school shootings are staged, and I doubt I'll find the Flat Earth society convincing.

I don't think I'm very special at all, but this is a numbers game: 5% of us are idiots and therein lies the problem.

This was fine when we had some Neo-Nazi living in Alaska distributing his message to his ten followers by mailing them casette tapes.

What would you do if you were Marc Zuckerberg? Let Alex Jones have his long angry rants about pedophilic drag queens who groom children? And then one of his followers detonates a nail bomb in a gay bar. People start pointing fingers at your respectable multi-billion advertising business. What will your press release look like?
Quoting someone who understands the problem.
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th April 2019, 12:58 AM   #365
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 11,377
Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
I think it is very important that only the fringes on the right (Nazis) and left (Stalinists) be excluded from the main platforms. But I think the slippery slope is real and there will be never-ending scope-creep.
I don't.

IMO, the slippery slope is a fallacy, like the "thin end of the wedge" fallacy - if you allow "this" then it won't be long before will be allowing "this" and then "this" and before you know it, burglary, rape and murder will be legal.

Banning of extremes will have a soft limit and a hard limit, rather like the lowest likely score and the lowest possible a golf course.
__________________
#THEYAREUS
The Mueller Report must be released to Congress in full - If Trump has nothing to hide, then he should also have nothing to fear!
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th April 2019, 01:24 AM   #366
Eddie Dane
Philosopher
 
Eddie Dane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,549
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I don't.

IMO, the slippery slope is a fallacy, like the "thin end of the wedge" fallacy - if you allow "this" then it won't be long before will be allowing "this" and then "this" and before you know it, burglary, rape and murder will be legal.

Banning of extremes will have a soft limit and a hard limit, rather like the lowest likely score and the lowest possible a golf course.

Not only do I predict there will be scope creep, but this scope creep will also be powered by algorithms.

That means some AI will look at this thread and remove all of Ponderingturtles snarky parodies of conservative positions. Not because they are unfunny strawmen, but because the AI will be incapable of recognising sarcasm.

I don't think this sanitised internet will be particularly fair, fun or sharp. Five years from now you'll be dusting off your VHS copy of Eddie Murphy's RAW because all the clips have been purged from Youtube for being racisthomphobicsexisttoxicmasculinitytransphobicet c.

I hope I'm wrong, but we'll have to see.

For now, it's inevitable that these companies restrict some speech as they cannot risk being liable for its outcomes and because the idiots in radical information bubbles can do disproportionate damage to society.
__________________
Death to Videodrome! Long live the new flesh!

Last edited by Eddie Dane; 24th April 2019 at 01:25 AM.
Eddie Dane is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th April 2019, 01:46 AM   #367
Eddie Dane
Philosopher
 
Eddie Dane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,549
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
And if just a few idiots from 4Chan can create such a furore of hate with so few resources and get the attention Carlson, then just imagine what the resources of the FSB and the Russian Government could do.... oh, wait!!
People are so willing to believe anything negative about the "other" that some troll can just cook up a social media account and play the role of black radical, radical feminist, Trumper etc and get major exposure through social sharing.

It is ridiculously easy. As you mentioned 4Chan has managed to do some absolutely insane social experiments. Freebleeding, recasting the OK sign as a White-power symbol. This is so successful that actual white nationalist are now using it as a symbol AND media companies are now seeing it like the Hitler salute.

The impact of a small group of teenagers having actual real-life effects should alert us to the dangers of organised trolling.
__________________
Death to Videodrome! Long live the new flesh!
Eddie Dane is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th April 2019, 02:44 AM   #368
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 6,848
Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
Not only do I predict there will be scope creep, but this scope creep will also be powered by algorithms.
I'd seriously like to know what this "scope creep" will look like. It seems unlikely that they'd suddenly ban comedy, although advertisers on Youtube may run for the exits rather than have their products associated with, say, Holocaust denial. And as for progressives, minorities, and so on, again, they've been arbitrarily banning them for years, so if there's any "slippery slope", the pro-genocide folks seem to be at the bottom of that slope, not at the top.

Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
People are so willing to believe anything negative about the "other" that sIt is ridiculously easy. As you mentioned 4Chan has managed to do some absolutely insane social experiments. Freebleeding, recasting the OK sign as a White-power symbol. This is so successful that actual white nationalist are now using it as a symbol AND media companies are now seeing it like the Hitler salute.
"Social experiment" isn't really the correct word, when any resistance is met with a storm of doxxing, followed by calls to employers, phone calls threatening rape and murder, and so forth.

(I'll also note that, much like Pepe the Frog in both his original form and the newer clown variant, the splayed-finger OK symbol became associated with white supremacists, not because of some experiment by trolls, but because it was adopted by violent white supremacists like Gavin McGinnis and the Christchurch terrorist.)
Mumbles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th April 2019, 02:56 AM   #369
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 46,061
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
That's a fascinating article, thanks for sharing.

It's so relevant to the subject of social internet haters on these two sites (FB and Twitter) plus flooding comment sections and stalking people.

What is it about feminism that is so threatening to some men?
Losing privilege is terrifying. Look at all the backlash to any civil rights movement.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th April 2019, 03:01 AM   #370
Baylor
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 7,564
Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
Just look what the Russian FSB have managed to accomplish in terms of stoking divisions.
lol
Baylor is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th April 2019, 03:01 AM   #371
Eddie Dane
Philosopher
 
Eddie Dane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,549
Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
I'd seriously like to know what this "scope creep" will look like. It seems unlikely that they'd suddenly ban comedy, although advertisers on Youtube may run for the exits rather than have their products associated with, say, Holocaust denial. And as for progressives, minorities, and so on, again, they've been arbitrarily banning them for years, so if there's any "slippery slope", the pro-genocide folks seem to be at the bottom of that slope, not at the top.



"Social experiment" isn't really the correct word, when any resistance is met with a storm of doxxing, followed by calls to employers, phone calls threatening rape and murder, and so forth.

(I'll also note that, much like Pepe the Frog in both his original form and the newer clown variant, the splayed-finger OK symbol became associated with white supremacists, not because of some experiment by trolls, but because it was adopted by violent white supremacists like Gavin McGinnis and the Christchurch terrorist.)
I agree that 'social experiment' is too benign a term. Social arson more like it.
I imagine it must be a weirdly powerful feeling for some teenage edgelords to throw some idea out there and then see it lead its own life in the web until it shows up at demonstrations and -as was the case with the christchurch shooter- used by an actual terrorist.
__________________
Death to Videodrome! Long live the new flesh!
Eddie Dane is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th April 2019, 03:03 AM   #372
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 46,061
Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
Not only do I predict there will be scope creep, but this scope creep will also be powered by algorithms.

That means some AI will look at this thread and remove all of Ponderingturtles snarky parodies of conservative positions. Not because they are unfunny strawmen, but because the AI will be incapable of recognising sarcasm.
Hey those are just basic sumaries of common conservative beliefs just put into fewer words and made more clear.

What slippery slopes do you believe in and what ones do you not? Is it wrong to make it not rape for two 16 year olds to have sex with each other because that is a slipper slope to 50 year olds having sex with 13 year olds out side of the legal bonds of marriage?

Here is the thing slopes are only really slippery when the issue is only partially addressed. Like sure giving women the vote did lead to anti discrimination laws and married women not needing their husband to sign for them to get a credit card. So that clearly was a slippery slope right, and we shouldn't have given them the vote. But in reality when an argument can be legitimately made for harm there is no slippery slope like how there is no real goal to legalize pedophilia because we legalized homosexuality.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th April 2019, 03:11 AM   #373
Baylor
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 7,564
Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
OK, the Hague has a significant Muslim minority, and they now have their own local party. Trollingly called the Party of Unity.
Not trollingly at all. They want unity. Just not with you. (the Dutch)
Baylor is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th April 2019, 03:18 AM   #374
tyr_13
Penultimate Amazing
 
tyr_13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 15,960
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Is anyone here arguing that Facebook should be forced to give up their freedom of association? I haven't so argued, I've only claimed that Facebook is acting badly, not illegally.

But more generally, businesses are frequently denied freedom of association on the grounds of anti-discrimination laws.
I contend that denying service to Nazis and white supremacist is not 'acting badly', and that those are not protected classes. Further I contend that anyone who thinks denying service to Nazis is acting badly but denying service to homosexuals is not is doing as Joe described.

Any criticisms of Facebook defining 'Nazi' too broadly would have to wait for that to happen and be judged on the merits of that case.
__________________
Circled nothing is still nothing.
"Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel
Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong
tyr_13 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th April 2019, 03:21 AM   #375
Craig B
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 22,641
Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Not trollingly at all. They want unity. Just not with you. (the Dutch)
Are citizens of The Hague not Dutch if they are Muslims? What is the religious qualification for being Dutch? I didn't know there was one. Do you have to be a Calvinist Protestant, or something like that?
Craig B is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th April 2019, 03:21 AM   #376
Eddie Dane
Philosopher
 
Eddie Dane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,549
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I was giving Eddie the credit of knowing that the government can't tell a multinational media company what it can publish in a foreign country.
Why should the government tell them to do this?

Fake news spread via Facebook has led to severe ethnic violence in Myanmar. Facebook just didn't understand the potential for disaster there, but they do now.

FB wants to be known for making connections between people, burned villages and gangrape are not FB's brand values. They will have to address this by hiring locals to curate news.
__________________
Death to Videodrome! Long live the new flesh!
Eddie Dane is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th April 2019, 03:25 AM   #377
Baylor
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 7,564
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Are citizens of The Hague not Dutch if they are Muslims? What is the religious qualification for being Dutch? I didn't know there was one. Do you have to be a Calvinist Protestant, or something like that?
Please ask one question per post. People reply to me with these-string-of question posts frequently and it gets annoying
Baylor is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th April 2019, 03:32 AM   #378
Eddie Dane
Philosopher
 
Eddie Dane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,549
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Hey those are just basic sumaries of common conservative beliefs just put into fewer words and made more clear.

What slippery slopes do you believe in and what ones do you not? Is it wrong to make it not rape for two 16 year olds to have sex with each other because that is a slipper slope to 50 year olds having sex with 13 year olds out side of the legal bonds of marriage?

Here is the thing slopes are only really slippery when the issue is only partially addressed. Like sure giving women the vote did lead to anti discrimination laws and married women not needing their husband to sign for them to get a credit card. So that clearly was a slippery slope right, and we shouldn't have given them the vote. But in reality when an argument can be legitimately made for harm there is no slippery slope like how there is no real goal to legalize pedophilia because we legalized homosexuality.
I'm obviously speculating. But people already have a problem with being banned for completely benign comments on Twitter.

Vocal ex-Muslims have been banned for criticising radical Islam, for instance. Plus the moderating teams might be infiltrated by people of a certain political or religious conviction. People who are incorrectly banned will have no place to publicly complain about their ban because there are only a few big social media platforms and I fully expect those to start coordinating their bans at some point.

Mumbles also pointed out that some groups were silenced who were much less deserving of a ban than literal Nazis. I don't expect that to get better as these platforms get more restrictive.

Plus, the platforms are in it for the money. If they could just sell advertising on the back of cat pictures and inspirational quotes posted by soccer moms, they would. Controversial content is a liability to them.
__________________
Death to Videodrome! Long live the new flesh!
Eddie Dane is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th April 2019, 03:33 AM   #379
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 46,061
Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
Why should the government tell them to do this?

Fake news spread via Facebook has led to severe ethnic violence in Myanmar. Facebook just didn't understand the potential for disaster there, but they do now.

FB wants to be known for making connections between people, burned villages and gangrape are not FB's brand values. They will have to address this by hiring locals to curate news.
But they are muslims so for american conservatives spreading fake news to incite violence against them is presidential, and hence not something facebook should ever ban.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th April 2019, 03:37 AM   #380
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 46,061
Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
I'm obviously speculating. But people already have a problem with being banned for completely benign comments on Twitter.

Vocal ex-Muslims have been banned for criticising radical Islam, for instance. Plus the moderating teams might be infiltrated by people of a certain political or religious conviction. People who are incorrectly banned will have no place to publicly complain about their ban because there are only a few big social media platforms and I fully expect those to start coordinating their bans at some point.
Show your sources then.
Quote:
Mumbles also pointed out that some groups were silenced who were much less deserving of a ban than literal Nazis. I don't expect that to get better as these platforms get more restrictive.
Yes I know lots of people who get into trouble all the time for posting pictures of themselves that facebook decides are indecent. And Mumbles point was that these groups were being banned for a long time before they came for the nazis. So why didn't you care about the censorship then and now only when nazis are a target it becomes a problem?
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th April 2019, 04:10 AM   #381
Eddie Dane
Philosopher
 
Eddie Dane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,549
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Show your sources then.


Yes I know lots of people who get into trouble all the time for posting pictures of themselves that facebook decides are indecent. And Mumbles point was that these groups were being banned for a long time before they came for the nazis. So why didn't you care about the censorship then and now only when nazis are a target it becomes a problem?
Am I failing in communicating my position?

I used to hold absolute free speech as a value, thinking that open debate would expose bad ideas.
I've recently changed my position because I now see that there is always a small minority of idiots to adhere to any idea. Nazis, Nation of Islam, healing crystals, anti-vax, unironically liking Rick Astley, doesn't matter. if you expose 2 billion people to an idea, a small number will fall for it and make it their identity. Case in point: Flat Earth Society.

These small minorities of people have negative consequences disproportionate to their numbers.
In addition to that, I go beyond the usual talking point that these companies have the right to ban certain speech and think that it is inevitable that they will ban certain speech for simple reasons of corporate responsibility and fear of damage to their brand.

Lastly, I predict that the constant process of curating user-generated content will be messy and imperfect. As an example: your constant schtick of impersonating right-wing idiots would be indistinguishable from an actual right-wing idiot to an algorithm.
__________________
Death to Videodrome! Long live the new flesh!
Eddie Dane is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th April 2019, 05:20 AM   #382
TofuFighter
Master Poster
 
TofuFighter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,120
Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Please ask one question per post. People reply to me with these-string-of question posts frequently and it gets annoying
What an odd response.

Since at least two of those questions were rhetorical, this post is probably best interpreted as 'I don't want to-answer-your questions'.
TofuFighter is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th April 2019, 05:37 AM   #383
Baylor
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 7,564
Originally Posted by TofuFighter View Post
What an odd response.

Since at least two of those questions were rhetorical, this post is probably best interpreted as 'I don't want to-answer-your questions'.
That'd be a wrong interpretation. If he'd ask just one well-thought out question, I'd be happy to answer it.
Baylor is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th April 2019, 05:48 AM   #384
Baylor
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 7,564
Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
If someone labels themselves as a nazi, then I am going to treat them as though they are a nazi.

If you have any objections to my behavior in this regard, state your case.
Go get 'em, Tiger!

Baylor is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th April 2019, 05:57 AM   #385
TofuFighter
Master Poster
 
TofuFighter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,120
Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
That'd be a wrong interpretation. If he'd ask just one well-thought out question, I'd be happy to answer it.
Your original complaint was that there were too many questions. Is your new, or amended, complaint that the questions were unclear? Or that they do not meet your quality requirements?
TofuFighter is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th April 2019, 07:26 AM   #386
isissxn
Rough Around the Edges
 
isissxn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Deep Storage
Posts: 5,428
Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
People are so willing to believe anything negative about the "other" that some troll can just cook up a social media account and play the role of black radical, radical feminist, Trumper etc and get major exposure through social sharing.

It is ridiculously easy. As you mentioned 4Chan has managed to do some absolutely insane social experiments. Freebleeding, recasting the OK sign as a White-power symbol. This is so successful that actual white nationalist are now using it as a symbol AND media companies are now seeing it like the Hitler salute.

The impact of a small group of teenagers having actual real-life effects should alert us to the dangers of organised trolling.
Looked up what "freebleeding" is, thinking it was some 4chan BS I missed. I was imagining a supposed "challenge" where people have to cut themselves and drip blood on camera or something. Click on the first hit - Wikipedia? Weird. This must have been a big meme, how did I not hear about it on Snopes? Started as reaction to the dangers of Toxic Shock Syndrome huh? *reads a little more*

Oh.
isissxn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th April 2019, 07:37 AM   #387
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 81,500
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Are you trying to suggest that there aren't legitimate free speech concerns here? It used to be that many people on the left recognized the need to protect freedom of speech even for racists.
Except that private businesses are under no obligation to let everyone speak.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th April 2019, 07:51 AM   #388
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 81,500
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Matt Taibbi articulates my position on this well.

https://www.rollingstone.com/politic...-jones-705766/
SEVENTY percent from FB and Google?

Not that I usually hesitate to call people stupid but, that's stupid.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th April 2019, 07:53 AM   #389
Eddie Dane
Philosopher
 
Eddie Dane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,549
Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
Looked up what "freebleeding" is, thinking it was some 4chan BS I missed. I was imagining a supposed "challenge" where people have to cut themselves and drip blood on camera or something. Click on the first hit - Wikipedia? Weird. This must have been a big meme, how did I not hear about it on Snopes? Started as reaction to the dangers of Toxic Shock Syndrome huh? *reads a little more*

Oh.
Just had a quick look on my phone. This may have had a precursor in radfem circles in the seventies. As I recall, it was an organised attempt by 4Chan to get women to stop using female hygiene products as a form of protest against patriarchal oppression.

I remember it getting some traction and media exposure, to the amusement of many a teenage troll.
__________________
Death to Videodrome! Long live the new flesh!
Eddie Dane is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th April 2019, 08:07 AM   #390
isissxn
Rough Around the Edges
 
isissxn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Deep Storage
Posts: 5,428
Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
Just had a quick look on my phone. This may have had a precursor in radfem circles in the seventies. As I recall, it was an organised attempt by 4Chan to get women to stop using female hygiene products as a form of protest against patriarchal oppression.

I remember it getting some traction and media exposure, to the amusement of many a teenage troll.
Oh! Haha, yeah, apparently it was a real thing at one time.

I can't imagine too many people got down with it either time. If there were no men in a society whatsoever, women still wouldn't want to bleed all over themselves. It's the same reason I don't just piss on myself when I'm alone.

4chan is strange. (I mean the parts that make these pranks, before anyone not-all-4chans me.)
isissxn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th April 2019, 08:09 AM   #391
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 81,500
Originally Posted by ServiceSoon View Post
Declaring "we don't serve your kind here" is discriminatory and oppressive regardless of the source.
"Excuse me, sir. You can't pee on the rug. I'm going to have to ask you to leave."

"That's oppressive and discriminatory! How about my right to pee?"

__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th April 2019, 08:11 AM   #392
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 11,377
Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
As an example: your constant schtick of impersonating right-wing idiots would be indistinguishable from an actual right-wing idiot to an algorithm.
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then its probably a duck!
__________________
#THEYAREUS
The Mueller Report must be released to Congress in full - If Trump has nothing to hide, then he should also have nothing to fear!
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th April 2019, 08:17 AM   #393
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 20,536
Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Go get 'em, Tiger!

https://i.imgur.com/JEetytK.png
Do you realise the difference between a tasteless fancy dress choice (for which the prince was rightly criticised) and actually espousing Nazi ideology?

Or are you implying that the Charlottesville marchers were in fancy dress and weren't neo Nazis?

If not, what are you implying, and what is the point of you posting that image?
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th April 2019, 08:28 AM   #394
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 81,500
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Just say that you don't believe in free speech. It's shorter, and more accurate.
He doesn't believe in YOUR version of free speech.

When you have to misconstrue an argument about a thing as being the other person not believe in that thing, then you're really just conceding that argument. If you can't support your stance, then bow out; don't use pubnlic shaming to try to get your way by putting the other person on the defensive. That's childish.

For what it's worth, I understand the concerns about the slippery slope. But when talking about laws, make very specific ones; and when talking about private soapboxes, so what? If I want to kick you out of my restaurant for flipping tables and being loud and obnoxious, I can do that.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th April 2019, 08:31 AM   #395
Craig B
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 22,641
Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Please ask one question per post. People reply to me with these-string-of question posts frequently and it gets annoying
You're being facetious I take it, or more likely intentionally obstructive. Just answer the question if there is any religious qualification for being Dutch, if you will.
Craig B is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th April 2019, 08:49 AM   #396
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 81,500
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
No, it doesn’t work that way. Voting for an actual communist doesn’t make you a communist, but supporting Israel makes you a Nazi.
Well you would have to work very hard to make your right-wing bias any more evident than in the above. No one ever said that supporting Israel makes you a Nazi. Also, no one said that supporting an actual communist doesn't make you a communist. Disagreeing that the person you're supporting is a communist is quite a bit different.

But you know that.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th April 2019, 08:56 AM   #397
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 81,500
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Words mean thing.
Not anymore.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th April 2019, 09:00 AM   #398
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 17,528
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Jesus Christ. I keep warning you. But does anyone listen? No. The pants-on-head-retarded arguments multiply without end.

As is Cassandra to the fall of Troy, so am I to the argument by analogy.
This whole crusade you've started against analogies is the dumbest hill anyone's decided to die defending on this board in a long time, and that's saying something.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th April 2019, 09:02 AM   #399
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 81,500
Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
I really don't see the problem here. If Facebook heads into a situation where they start banning anyone that even seems to suggest racist or separatism of anything else for that matter, then, so so what?

At the end of the day they will just be reducing their customer base, and that will hurt them, and you know what, it gives someone else that chance to come forward and pick up people kicked out of Facebook, and for them to build up a new platform.
Oh, my! You just pitted the idea of free speech against the concept of the free market. Like James T Kirk talking a computer to death, you might make some libertarian heads explode, here.

Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
I think some people have fallen so hard for the "pro-free speech for nazis" argument that they have begun to empathize with any inconvenience an avowed nazi might face. It even leads them to set aside rational moral consideration and instead lash out at their perceived opponents, which is... communists, I guess?
It is indeed very interesting that those who are defending the Nazis from being thrown out of the restaurant are asking why the communists are allowed in there in the first place. Very historically interesting.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th April 2019, 09:12 AM   #400
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 14,310
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
If I want to kick you out of my restaurant for flipping tables and being loud and obnoxious, I can do that.
It wasn't so long ago that everybody in this forum was condemning a baker for refusing to write a pro-gay message on a wedding cake.

Apparently the right to refuse to provide a soapbox for somebody only applies when politically incorrect views are concerned.
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:16 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.