ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 9th May 2019, 07:58 AM   #1
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Besźel or Ul Qoma - not sure...
Posts: 9,195
What's wrong with this picture...?

BBC News: 'Sugar daddy' dating site fined for promoting prostitution

"The Norwegian businessman behind a "millionaire dating" site has been handed a six-month suspended sentence for promoting prostitution.

A court in Belgium handed the sentence to Sigurd Vedal, the investor behind RichMeetBeautiful, which connects wealthy older men to young women.

Mr Vedal was personally fined 24,000 and his company 240,000 (207,000).

The site caused a scandal in 2017 after advertising "sugar daddies" to Belgian university students.

Mobile billboards from the company toured areas near the Free University of Brussels campus encouraging students to register for the service for financial gain.

Alongside sexualised imagery, the ads invited students to "improve your lifestyle" or have a "zero euro student loan" by dating a "sugar daddy" - a term for older wealthy men interested in meeting younger women.

Similar adverts caused uproar in France where they advertised "romance, passion and no student loan". Mr Vedal is also accused of "aggravated pimping" in that country."

Not being picky, but the photograph at the top of the article clearly shows that the billboard - of the "student loan" variation - clearly states both "SUGAR DADDY" and "SUGAR MOMA." Now, I'm sure the former greatly outnumbered the latter, but it's bizarre for the article to pretend that it's only about wealthy men and younger women, yet illustrate it with a photograph that plainly shows otherwise.
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th May 2019, 09:13 AM   #2
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 22,466
Maybe the truth is (and the author knows) that the business never did get any Sugar Mama to participate.
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th May 2019, 09:25 AM   #3
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 7,883
to be perfectly honest (I like being honest):
I like the up-front honesty of the concept.
__________________
Opinion is divided on the subject. All the others say it is; I say it isnt.
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th May 2019, 10:33 AM   #4
Thermal
Philosopher
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: NJ USA. We Don't Like You Either
Posts: 7,461
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
to be perfectly honest (I like being honest):
I like the up-front honesty of the concept.
As long as...uh...performance expectations are disclosed and agreed to.

Some guys have funny ideas just how deviant they can be with what they have 'bought and paid for'
__________________
"Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th May 2019, 10:39 AM   #5
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 22,466
And some Sugar Babies like to pull a knife or gun and get a little more than just tuition.
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th May 2019, 10:42 AM   #6
Thermal
Philosopher
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: NJ USA. We Don't Like You Either
Posts: 7,461
Wait...the OP says 'SUGAR MOMA' ...is this about that creepy chicken lady thing?
__________________
"Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th May 2019, 11:01 AM   #7
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 7,883
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
As long as...uh...performance expectations are disclosed and agreed to.

Some guys have funny ideas just how deviant they can be with what they have 'bought and paid for'
absolutely.

But we are talking about adult, if young, women who have a clear expectation of what's in it for them, too.

Still, just the name of the operation makes me feel sick.
__________________
Opinion is divided on the subject. All the others say it is; I say it isnt.
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th May 2019, 01:38 PM   #8
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Besźel or Ul Qoma - not sure...
Posts: 9,195
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Wait...the OP says 'SUGAR MOMA' ...is this about that creepy chicken lady thing?
Nah, just my typo - should be "SUGAR MAMA."
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th May 2019, 03:21 PM   #9
Checkmite
Skepticifimisticalationist
 
Checkmite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Gulf Coast
Posts: 23,414
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
As long as...uh...performance expectations are disclosed and agreed to.

Some guys have funny ideas just how deviant they can be with what they have 'bought and paid for'
It's true. One of the worst misfortunes of prostitution is that sex workers are deemed subhuman from multiple sides. Not just by the obvious opponents of prostitution and law enforcement, but by a sizeable chunk of their own customer base, which one might expect would be their allies.
__________________
"WHAT KIND OF BIRD?
A PARANORMAL BIRD?"
--- Carlos S., 2002
Checkmite is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th May 2019, 03:28 PM   #10
Puppycow
Penultimate Amazing
 
Puppycow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 23,324
Do "Sugar Mamas" actually exist? If they do, do they need some kind of dodgy website to find willing young males? On Ashley Madison the ratio of men to women using the site was so lopsided that the company created "fembots" to create the appearance of actual female users for their male customers. (exactly how lopsided, seems to be unclear.)
__________________
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare
Puppycow is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th May 2019, 04:06 PM   #11
Trebuchet
Penultimate Amazing
 
Trebuchet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: The Great Northwet
Posts: 21,018
They misspelled "$ugar Daddy".
__________________
Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.
Trebuchet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th May 2019, 04:30 PM   #12
Elvis666
Critical Thinker
 
Elvis666's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 370
Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Do "Sugar Mamas" actually exist? If they do, do they need some kind of dodgy website to find willing young males? On Ashley Madison the ratio of men to women using the site was so lopsided that the company created "fembots" to create the appearance of actual female users for their male customers. (exactly how lopsided, seems to be unclear.)
I would assume "Sugar Mamas" would include older women looking for younger women.
__________________
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." - Philip K. Dick
Elvis666 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th May 2019, 05:44 PM   #13
Trebuchet
Penultimate Amazing
 
Trebuchet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: The Great Northwet
Posts: 21,018
I wouldn't mind meeting a Sugar Mama, but she'd have to be in her 90's, given my current age. Doesn't seem likely.
__________________
Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.
Trebuchet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th May 2019, 08:50 PM   #14
rjh01
Gentleman of leisure
Tagger
 
rjh01's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Flying around in the sky
Posts: 24,490
Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
I wouldn't mind meeting a Sugar Mama, but she'd have to be in her 90's, given my current age. Doesn't seem likely.
Men die at a younger age then women. Plus men generally marry younger women. So there will be plenty of single women aged 70+. Some of them have money. If all you want is money you could advertise yourself to this group. Though your people skills would have to be very good.
__________________
This signature is for rent.
rjh01 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th May 2019, 06:49 AM   #15
Lithrael
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,481
Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Do "Sugar Mamas" actually exist? If they do, do they need some kind of dodgy website to find willing young males? On Ashley Madison the ratio of men to women using the site was so lopsided that the company created "fembots" to create the appearance of actual female users for their male customers. (exactly how lopsided, seems to be unclear.)
I watched a great doco (that I cant currently find) on rich old ladies engaging in https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_sex_tourism where theyd go somewhere with lots of handsome young fellas with low income and lavish gifts and cash on em. One of em was like isnt this risky? Im 87, if Im killed or get AIDS doing this then FINE, Im having the time of my life till then (highly paraphrased and possibly misremembered as I cant find it again to check).
Lithrael is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th May 2019, 11:33 PM   #16
dann
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 7,560
Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
It's true. One of the worst misfortunes of prostitution is that sex workers are deemed subhuman from multiple sides. Not just by the obvious opponents of prostitution and law enforcement, but by a sizeable chunk of their own customer base, which one might expect would be their allies.

The worst misfortune of prostitution is the driving force behind it: poverty and the income disparity. A buyer is never an ally. The cynical buyers know what they're getting for their money and don't mind: They've bought a commodity and use it like one: What happens to the commodity they've bought is no concern of theirs: Lithrael's example. (And there's no reason to think that male buyers are any different from female ones):

Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
I watched a great doco (that I cant currently find) on rich old ladies engaging in https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_sex_tourism where theyd go somewhere with lots of handsome young fellas with low income and lavish gifts and cash on em. One of em was like isnt this risky? Im 87, if Im killed or get AIDS doing this then FINE, Im having the time of my life till then (highly paraphrased and possibly misremembered as I cant find it again to check).

The more nave buyers imagine that actual affection is something they can buy.
In the case of students, there may be reason to hope that it's a very temporary situation, but it's still a situation that their buyers take advantage of.
Fining or jailing the pimp does absolutely nothing to change that situation. Financial support for students - which is what this kind of prostitution masquerades as - would, but it does nothing to help the ones who are not selling sex as a temporary solution to financial difficulties.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th May 2019, 07:36 AM   #17
kedo1981
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,583
So wait!

A while back I commented on a similar topic "The oldest profession" that humans "females and males' have always used sexual favors to "take care of business" (get food, shelter, protection, transmissions repaired, water heater fixed, college tuition, a trip to Barbados, yadda yadda yadda).
I, of course, was called the most sexist poster some members had ever seen.
But I would assert, that the above post and article linked to and discussed "kinda" proves my point.
What else does a "Sugar Daddy" do but provide basic needs in exchange for the WANGO TANGO.
Prostitution isn't just the worlds oldest profession, it's the worlds oldest temp job.
kedo1981 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th May 2019, 07:43 AM   #18
dann
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 7,560
And once upon a time we killed and ate people ...
Do you have a point? - other than trying to make a regrettable social phenomenon, i.e. having sex with people you don't like or paying people who don't like you to have sex with you, appear to be the natural order of things ...
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 12th May 2019 at 07:46 AM.
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th May 2019, 09:38 AM   #19
Lithrael
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,481
Originally Posted by dann View Post
The worst misfortune of prostitution is the driving force behind it: poverty and the income disparity. A buyer is never an ally. The cynical buyers know what they're getting for their money and don't mind: They've bought a commodity and use it like one: What happens to the commodity they've bought is no concern of theirs: Lithrael's example. (And there's no reason to think that male buyers are any different from female ones):

The more nave buyers imagine that actual affection is something they can buy.
In the case of students, there may be reason to hope that it's a very temporary situation, but it's still a situation that their buyers take advantage of.
Fining or jailing the pimp does absolutely nothing to change that situation. Financial support for students - which is what this kind of prostitution masquerades as - would, but it does nothing to help the ones who are not selling sex as a temporary solution to financial difficulties.
Yeah. The interviews with the guys involved sounded a lot like what you get from their female counterparts in amateur sex work; many were disappointed with themselves in that they felt used/degraded/like a commodity, but the money was so good and so easy that they had trouble moving away from that kind of work when the novelty wore off and it stopped being fun. Some were still having fun and said they enjoyed making old people feel exciting and getting a wad of cash for it. Some felt like it was never anything else but transactional, they were annoyed with what they saw as the confusion introduced by people acting like they really were just friends with benefits.

ETA: The pie-in-the-sky ending some described was getting married to a sugar mamma to become a citizen of their country and leave home for a better life.

Last edited by Lithrael; 12th May 2019 at 09:42 AM.
Lithrael is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th May 2019, 09:41 AM   #20
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Besźel or Ul Qoma - not sure...
Posts: 9,195
Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
I watched a great doco (that I cant currently find) on rich old ladies engaging in https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_sex_tourism where theyd go somewhere with lots of handsome young fellas with low income and lavish gifts and cash on em. One of em was like isnt this risky? Im 87, if Im killed or get AIDS doing this then FINE, Im having the time of my life till then (highly paraphrased and possibly misremembered as I cant find it again to check).
That Wikipedia page seems almost desperate to claim that female sex tourism is totally not like "real" sex tourism. The page for that only uses the word "romance" once in indirect passing, and certainly doesn't talk about "situational sex tourism."
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th May 2019, 09:51 AM   #21
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 85,671
Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
I wouldn't mind meeting a Sugar Mama, but she'd have to be in her 90's, given my current age. Doesn't seem likely.
Queen Victoria seems to have been a sugar mama to a couple of younger blokes.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th May 2019, 10:13 AM   #22
isissxn
Rough Around the Edges
 
isissxn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Deep Storage
Posts: 5,408
Jeez, I'd rather shovel elephant ****. It's amazing to me what some people are willing to put up with to avoid student loans.

I can't think of a more miserable job than pretending to like and be sexually attracted to someone who is paying me to pretend that. The "sugar daddy" thing always sounds like it would be harder than regular prostitution in some ways. It's basically a pretend relationship for money, not just sessions of sex. I honestly think that would make my soul go coarse.

Not saying people shouldn't do it. Just remarking on how much the rise of sugar-daddy stuff has surprised me.
isissxn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th May 2019, 10:23 AM   #23
dann
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 7,560
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Queen Victoria seems to have been a sugar mama to a couple of younger blokes.

In her 90s?!
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 12th May 2019 at 10:40 AM.
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th May 2019, 10:28 AM   #24
dann
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 7,560
Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
That Wikipedia page seems almost desperate to claim that female sex tourism is totally not like "real" sex tourism. The page for that only uses the word "romance" once in indirect passing, and certainly doesn't talk about "situational sex tourism."

I think that the Wikipedia page is pretty good. It distinguishes between three kinds of female sex tourists:

Quote:
Female sex tourists can be grouped into three types:

- Traditional sex tourists, who have similar characteristics and motives as male sex tourists.
- Situational sex tourists, who do not intentionally put themselves in a sex tourist position, but find themselves involved in a sexual encounter with local men. Situational sex tourists may fall into the category of either being businesswomen, students, women in overseas conferences or other women who have different agendas that are non-sexual.
- Romance tourists, who plan to fulfill their travel with romantic experiences that they cannot experience in their native country.

And it has a pretty thorough discussion of concepts and interpretations.
But there are probably male situational sex tourists and male romance tourists, too.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th May 2019, 10:39 AM   #25
dann
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 7,560
Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
Jeez, I'd rather shovel elephant ****.

Me too, I think. I shoveled pig **** for a week when I was very young, and even though the ammonia (bad ventilation) was killing me, I'd probably prefer that job. Nowadays, I'd be much too old and probably also of the wrong sex anyway.

Quote:
It's amazing to me what some people are willing to put up with to avoid student loans.

I don't think that most of these women are actual students. I think that the majority are regular prostitutes who pretend to be students. They are already used to pretending and know that some johns are attracted to the idea of being sugar daddies to young college students rather than ordinary johns.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th May 2019, 11:27 AM   #26
zooterkin
Nitpicking dilettante
Deputy Admin
 
zooterkin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Berkshire, mostly
Posts: 42,430
Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
Men die at a younger age then women. Plus men generally marry younger women. So there will be plenty of single women aged 70+. Some of them have money. If all you want is money you could advertise yourself to this group. Though your people skills would have to be very good.
Is that what they're calling it these days?
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell
Zooterkin is correct Darat
Nerd! Hokulele
Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232
Ezekiel 23:20
zooterkin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th May 2019, 11:34 AM   #27
dann
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 7,560
I think it's what gentlemen of leisure call it!
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th May 2019, 11:51 PM   #28
rjh01
Gentleman of leisure
Tagger
 
rjh01's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Flying around in the sky
Posts: 24,490
Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Is that what they're calling it these days?
What is it?
If you do not know what people skills are then search for a definition on the internet. Let me help you do that People_skillsWP. What is in that article is what I meant.
__________________
This signature is for rent.
rjh01 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th May 2019, 12:16 AM   #29
Puppycow
Penultimate Amazing
 
Puppycow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 23,324
Originally Posted by dann View Post
The worst misfortune of prostitution is the driving force behind it: poverty and the income disparity.
I wonder if we had universal basic income, and everyone had enough money to cover their basic needs, whether there would still be prostitution? You think it would disappear entirely?
__________________
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare
Puppycow is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th May 2019, 02:16 AM   #30
rjh01
Gentleman of leisure
Tagger
 
rjh01's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Flying around in the sky
Posts: 24,490
Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
I wonder if we had universal basic income, and everyone had enough money to cover their basic needs, whether there would still be prostitution? You think it would disappear entirely?
Some people will want more than the bare minimum. So prostitution will always exist.
__________________
This signature is for rent.
rjh01 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th May 2019, 07:59 AM   #31
dann
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 7,560
Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
I wonder if we had universal basic income, and everyone had enough money to cover their basic needs, whether there would still be prostitution? You think it would disappear entirely?

It did in Cuba (Wikipedia) ... virtually, along with poverty and the income disparity and recognized by the UN as eradicated ... until the collapse of the Soviet bloc when it returned with the poverty - to the embarrassment of the Cuban state.
Daniel Chavarria's novel Adis muchachos gives a good (and very entertaining) impression of this aspect of the early 1990s.
I have talked with representatives of the Cuban state about this question, and they tend to see it as a moral question rather than a financial one.
I disagree.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th May 2019, 08:02 AM   #32
dann
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 7,560
Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
Some people will want more than the bare minimum. So prostitution will always exist.
Not when poverty, i.e. "the bare minimum", and the absurd income disparity nowadays are abolished.
Are you thinking of borderline cases like Melania?
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th May 2019, 08:56 AM   #33
carlitos
"ms divertido"
 
carlitos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 19,876
Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
I watched a great doco (that I cant currently find) on rich old ladies engaging in https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_sex_tourism where theyd go somewhere with lots of handsome young fellas with low income and lavish gifts and cash on em.
There was a pretty well-known film on this called "Paradise Love." Not a documentary though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradise:_Love
carlitos is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th May 2019, 11:43 AM   #34
dann
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 7,560
Not exactly a feel-good movie, but not bad at all and probably very realistic.
Another movie in Ulrich Seidl's Paradise trilogy might interest the atheists on this forum: Paradise: Faith.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th May 2019, 11:56 AM   #35
Horatius
NWO Kitty Wrangler
 
Horatius's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 27,075
Originally Posted by dann View Post
It did in Cuba (Wikipedia) ... virtually, along with poverty and the income disparity and recognized by the UN as eradicated ... until the collapse of the Soviet bloc when it returned with the poverty - to the embarrassment of the Cuban state.


Your own link says otherwise:


Quote:
Transactional sex continued during this period, with some women forming relationships with high-status men in return for better access to consumer goods.[26] During the "Revolutionary Offensive" of 1968, the claim was made that privately-owned nightclubs and bars were havens of prostitution. Most of the remaining private businesses on the island were nationalised.[27] In the 1970s, some women were independently offering sex in Havana hotels in exchange for consumer goods,[23] but prostitution remained extremely limited until the early 1990s

There may be a lot less prostitution, but it will likely never go away entirely. So long as there are people who want more than they have, and people who want sex that they can't get any other way, some prostitution will occur.
__________________
Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd
Horatius is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th May 2019, 12:55 PM   #36
dann
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 7,560
I read the whole thing and noticed the claim that "In the 1970s, some women were independently offering sex in Havana hotels in exchange for consumer goods." It's not what UN reports have claimed - sorry, unable to find a link right now; it was in the 1980s, I think - so I tend to be very skeptical. It refers to this book, Sun, Sex, and Gold: Tourism and Sex Work in the Caribbean, 1999, p. 13, i.e. probably from the preface. I would have liked to see it for myself and wanted to kindle it, but the price is too steep: $50!
This was what made me think of Melania: "some women forming relationships with high-status men in return for better access to consumer goods."

I just found out that you can use the "Look inside" function at Amazon to see p. 13 of the book:

Quote:
del Omo concludes that in the 1970s prostitution was not completely absent in Cuban society. Women, she states, were independently cruising the hotels of Havana offering sex ”in exchange for a pair of ’blue jeans’”.

del Omo is the writer of this article from 1979: The Cuban Revolution and the Struggle against Prostitution, but I'm not even sure that the article is in English. There's a one-liner 'abstract' in Spanish.
So I give up now.

From the same page as the other quotation:

Quote:
The first steps taken by the new government were to conduct a census of the prostitutes and pimps and then to establish medical clinics for special health examinations, rehabilitation programs for “pimps”, and reeducation programs for former sex workers (del Omo 1979). In 1961, the census counted 150,000 working women and 3,000 pimps, yet within two years the majority of both prostitutes and pimps were considered rehabilitated (del Omo 1979: 36).

I find that pretty impressive!
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 13th May 2019 at 12:58 PM.
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th May 2019, 01:22 PM   #37
Arcade22
Philosopher
 
Arcade22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 5,166
Women are usually seen as less dangerous, abusive and harmful than men are. Naturally if you are trying to push ideological and political views it helps if you don't acknowledge, even in principle, that women can also engage in the things you oppose simply because your narrative is robbed of much of the emotional impact it could have.

Same thing with male same-sex prostitution, which is far more common than men being paid to have sex with women. Men, even teenage boys, are both seen as less vulnerable and worthy of sympathy and a need for protection than their female counterparts. Hence why someone who'd campaign smartly against prostitution of minors and youths wouldn't emphasize that teenage males are more likely to have been paid for sex (at least in Sweden).
__________________
Freedom you all want, you want freedom. Why then do you haggle over a more or less? Freedom can only be the whole of freedom; a piece of freedom is not freedom. You despair of the possibility of obtaining the whole of freedom, freedom from everything - yes, you consider it insanity even to wish this? - Well, then leave off chasing after the phantom, and spend your pains on something better than the - unattainable. - Max Stirner
Arcade22 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th May 2019, 03:04 PM   #38
rjh01
Gentleman of leisure
Tagger
 
rjh01's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Flying around in the sky
Posts: 24,490
Originally Posted by dann View Post
Not when poverty, i.e. "the bare minimum", and the absurd income disparity nowadays are abolished.
Are you thinking of borderline cases like Melania?
I doubt that we will ever live in a society where both poverty and absurd income disparity are abolished. That is the society on which Star Trek exists will never happen.
__________________
This signature is for rent.
rjh01 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th May 2019, 01:01 AM   #39
Eddie Dane
Philosopher
 
Eddie Dane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,524
Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
Men die at a younger age then women. Plus men generally marry younger women. So there will be plenty of single women aged 70+. Some of them have money. If all you want is money you could advertise yourself to this group. Though your people skills would have to be very good.
Some years ago there was a big story in Germany of the female heir to BMW cars falling for the charms of a purported 'Gigolo'. The guy in question would hang around expensive hotels and clubs, contact rich women, wrap them around his finger and get them to hand over huge amounts of cash.

BMW-cougar was about to transfer millions of Euros when her kids intervened.

I was expecting the guy to look like Brad Pitt in Troy or something. Instead, his looks were a lot closer to Louis CK.

So yeah, people skills.
__________________
Death to Videodrome! Long live the new flesh!
Eddie Dane is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th May 2019, 01:16 AM   #40
Eddie Dane
Philosopher
 
Eddie Dane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,524
Originally Posted by dann View Post
I read the whole thing and noticed the claim that "In the 1970s, some women were independently offering sex in Havana hotels in exchange for consumer goods." It's not what UN reports have claimed - sorry, unable to find a link right now; it was in the 1980s, I think - so I tend to be very skeptical. It refers to this book, Sun, Sex, and Gold: Tourism and Sex Work in the Caribbean, 1999, p. 13, i.e. probably from the preface. I would have liked to see it for myself and wanted to kindle it, but the price is too steep: $50!
This was what made me think of Melania: "some women forming relationships with high-status men in return for better access to consumer goods."

I just found out that you can use the "Look inside" function at Amazon to see p. 13 of the book:




del Omo is the writer of this article from 1979: The Cuban Revolution and the Struggle against Prostitution, but I'm not even sure that the article is in English. There's a one-liner 'abstract' in Spanish.
So I give up now.

From the same page as the other quotation:




I find that pretty impressive!
I'm fine with governments fighting prostitution through information, vocational training etc. But not by putting poor people in jail.

The was this economics book (I forget the name) that looked at prostitution.

It turns out the lower you are on the prostitution rung, the worse the pay and the higher the chances of abuse and violence.
Moving up the ladder to clubs, escorts, sugar babies etc the higher you go, the less sex you have to have, the less violence you endure and the more money you make.

Worst case: truck stop hooker
Best case: Melania
__________________
Death to Videodrome! Long live the new flesh!
Eddie Dane is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:27 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.