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Old 13th January 2020, 05:30 AM   #81
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One of the highlights of my daily commute.

For cars it is a crossing (gray), for bicycles it is a roundabout (red).

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Old 13th January 2020, 06:55 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by MetalPig View Post
One of the highlights of my daily commute.

For cars it is a crossing (gray), for bicycles it is a roundabout (red).

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...c62c9aa1d6.jpg
As designed by Crowley Associates.
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Old 13th January 2020, 07:12 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
I think the solution is to make it more difficult to get and to keep a drivers license.

We are well into the 21st Century. We have the technology to give everyone a 10-minute test on a very realistic simulator. I submit that even a test as short as that would easily identify the bottom decile of drivers.

Obviously such a test would include merging onto a highway, making left turns at a busy intersection, and passing through a school zone. And of course, the highway-driving portion of the test must include an accident on the other side of the highway - people who slow down to look don’t just fail, and an examiner comes out and says, “you lose! You get NOTHING! Good day sir. I said ‘good day, sir.’”
I'm not convinced, I don't think (although I have no data to prove this) that a lot of problems are caused by people who are incapable of driving within the rules, rather by people who think they don't need the rules. These people could easily pass a 10 min simulator test, then be as dangerous as ever out on the roads.
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Old 13th January 2020, 12:29 PM   #84
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Airport Runway Roundabouts.

https://digg.com/video/why-circular-...became-a-thing
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Old 13th January 2020, 09:12 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Can't watch the video right now, but I think the disadvantages of circular runways outweigh the potential advantages. In practice I think the banked runway would have a somewhat concave shape, putting the aircraft wingtips and engines below the wings closer to the ground. Less margin for error.
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Old 14th January 2020, 02:17 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
I think the solution is to make it more difficult to get and to keep a drivers license.
That has been the knee jerk reaction of governments to motorist problems since driving licences were first issued. From a time when you had to do little more than pay for a testing permit, the hoops an aspiring driver has to go through have been increasing exponentially for decades.

I haven't noticed a corresponding improvement in the driving I see on the roads.
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Old 14th January 2020, 03:03 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by MetalPig View Post
One of the highlights of my daily commute.

For cars it is a crossing (gray), for bicycles it is a roundabout (red).

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...c62c9aa1d6.jpg
Fortunately not on my commute, but I've used this a number of times. J26 on the M60 has a cross over before you enter the motorway, but then you enter the motorway in the fast lane!
https://www.roads.org.uk/badjunctions/60-560

Quote:
What's wrong with it?
It's half a junction, filling in bits of movements that the junctions either side either don't have or, in some cases, already do have. There's no access for traffic heading eastbound on the A560 — but it's still forced to stop at a set of traffic lights where the sliproads take it in turns to cross each other over. The layout of this means that heading eastbound on the A560, and waiting at the traffic lights, there appears to be a sliproad leading up to the left onto the motorway. The danger of this isn't just potential — numerous confused drivers have ended up facing the wrong way round on the M60 here. In addition, the A560 is dualled to the east but single to the west — and of course the west is the busier part.
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Old 14th January 2020, 03:15 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by wobs View Post
Fortunately not on my commute, but I've used this a number of times. J26 on the M60 has a cross over before you enter the motorway, but then you enter the motorway in the fast lane!
https://www.roads.org.uk/badjunctions/60-560
That one is truly special.
I'll send it to my wife. She works at planning highways.
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Old 14th January 2020, 03:33 AM   #89
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Isn't there a 'Mythbusters' that investigates lights over roundabouts?
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Old 14th January 2020, 08:18 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
That has been the knee jerk reaction of governments to motorist problems since driving licences were first issued. From a time when you had to do little more than pay for a testing permit, the hoops an aspiring driver has to go through have been increasing exponentially for decades.

I haven't noticed a corresponding improvement in the driving I see on the roads.
One thinks you are rather exaggerating.
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Old 14th January 2020, 08:56 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
That has been the knee jerk reaction of governments to motorist problems since driving licences were first issued. From a time when you had to do little more than pay for a testing permit, the hoops an aspiring driver has to go through have been increasing exponentially for decades.

I haven't noticed a corresponding improvement in the driving I see on the roads.
If you look at statistics over time you can see real improvements, but I don't know if any of that is attributable to better drivers or just better, safer cars (and possibly better roads, better intersections and so on).

Small, gradual statistical improvements over a long period of time probably aren't the sort of thing you can notice just by driving on the roads, but given enough time, even small incremental improvements can add up to a lot.

https://www.budgetdirect.com.au/car-...tatistics.html

Quote:
Trends

In the past 30 years road fatalities have dropped by 60% in Australia. The largest reductions were in passenger related fatalities, which are down by 72% over the 30 year period, followed by pedestrians, down 63% and cyclists down 63% over the same time period. Since 1987 Australia’s fatalities per 100,000 people dropped from 17 to 4.6. The Northern Territory saw a significant reduction from 53.1 road fatalities per 100,000 people to 20.22 but still stands as the state with the highest fatality rate in the nation. The ACT has seen the most success in reducing their fatalities from 13.6 to 2.14 fatalities per 100,000 people.

In the last decade Australia has seen a 24% increase in the total count of vehicles registered, meaning that there is a lot more cars on Australian roads. Since 2008 motorcycle registrations increased by 62% and light commercial vehicles increased by 36%. These increases in vehicles on the road make the reduction in road fatalities all the more impressive. However there is still a lot of work to be done to reduce the statistics further.
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Old 14th January 2020, 08:59 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
One thinks you are rather exaggerating.
Well, they're not exaggerating about the increasing requirements. When I got my license I had to drive with a licensed passenger displaying L plates for three months, then sit a written and a practical test and I was done.

My son, when he got his license, had to pass a written test, then keep a detailed log book for at least 50 hours of supervised driving, at least 10 hours of which had to be at night, displaying L plates, then pass a practical test, display red P plates and be speed-limited for one year, then display green P plates for another year, before being fully licensed.

About the quality of driving, I can't say. I find the vast majority of drivers to be perfectly adequate.
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Old 15th January 2020, 02:48 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
If you look at statistics over time you can see real improvements, but I don't know if any of that is attributable to better drivers or just better, safer cars (and possibly better roads, better intersections and so on).
Can I add better medical care?

The confounding factors are legion.
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Old 15th January 2020, 04:02 AM   #94
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In the UK in the 30 years since I did my test we have added a separate theory section rather than it being 3 questions at the end of your driving test.

Hardly "... have been increasing exponentially for decades."
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Old 15th January 2020, 04:06 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Can I add better medical care?

The confounding factors are legion.
Yeah, a number of factors in aggregate all add up to a very significant difference. I'm sure that they all contribute some part of the whole but I don't really know how to separate out any single factor from the others. Differences between countries might tell you something though, as some countries have famously bad drivers.
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Old 15th January 2020, 09:20 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
In the UK in the 30 years since I did my test we have added a separate theory section rather than it being 3 questions at the end of your driving test.

Hardly "... have been increasing exponentially for decades."
Maybe it's different in the UK but here, promising to make it harder to get a licence is usually a vote winner - especially when a "Young driver killed" headline makes an appearance.
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Old 15th January 2020, 09:50 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Maybe it's different in the UK but here, promising to make it harder to get a licence is usually a vote winner - especially when a "Young driver killed" headline makes an appearance.
Indeed. As I related, it was considerably more difficult, and took a lot longer, for my son to get his driver's license than it was for me.
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Old 16th January 2020, 01:07 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Indeed. As I related, it was considerably more difficult, and took a lot longer, for my son to get his driver's license than it was for me.
That's disingenuous leaving out the point I was actually making and selectively quoting to make it look like I was agreeing with you. My point was "Hardly "... have been increasing exponentially for decades.""
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Old 16th January 2020, 01:08 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Maybe it's different in the UK but here, promising to make it harder to get a licence is usually a vote winner - especially when a "Young driver killed" headline makes an appearance.
That's a different point to your original claim.
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Old 16th January 2020, 01:09 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
That's a different point to your original claim.
Is it?
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Old 16th January 2020, 04:30 AM   #101
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Motorbike licenses are a better example than cars in the UK.
When I got my first bike you just found a quiet road or industrial estate and worked it out for yourself.
You could ride any bike up to 250cc for as long as you wanted on your L plates (this included bikesl ike the Yamaha 250LC or the Kawasaki KH Triple that could do a 100 and could out accelerate anything on the road just about.
It was tightened up in the 80s so the learner limit was a 12hp 125cc bike with a 2 year learner limit. Then compulsory basic off road training was introduced.
Now there are two different licenses depending on age and bike size you want to ride and lots of offroad training and an offroad riding skills test alongside the theory.
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Old 16th January 2020, 09:15 AM   #102
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Anybody here used the Magic Roundabout in Hemel Hempstead, UK?

I lived there for some years, and used it regularly.

Before it was 'magicked' it could be almost impossible to get onto the roundabout from some roads - the size meant that traffic already on the roundabout was running pretty fast around it. The mini-roundabouts really slowed everything down and allowed you to go left or right when you arrived.
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Old 16th January 2020, 09:18 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
Anybody here used the Magic Roundabout in Hemel Hempstead, UK?

I lived there for some years, and used it regularly.

Before it was 'magicked' it could be almost impossible to get onto the roundabout from some roads - the size meant that traffic already on the roundabout was running pretty fast around it. The mini-roundabouts really slowed everything down and allowed you to go left or right when you arrived.

Yep, used it quite a number of times - never had any difficulty with it.
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Old 16th January 2020, 10:38 AM   #104
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The State of Washington wants to put a roundabout at the West end of the Hood Canal Bridge. Everybody that writes into the local paper hates the idea. The problem is that there are intersecting roads and it's tough for drivers to get out, but there is also the start of a big hill on the main road so that truckers really don't want to be stopped by a light.
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Old 16th January 2020, 12:30 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
The State of Washington wants to put a roundabout at the West end of the ]Hood Canal Bridge[/hilite]. Everybody that writes into the local paper hates the idea. The problem is that there are intersecting roads and it's tough for drivers to get out, but there is also the start of a big hill on the main road so that truckers really don't want to be stopped by a light.
Since I just recently finished this...
(18x24 in. acrylic)
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File Type: jpg IMG_9219 - orig.jpg (92.1 KB, 8 views)
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Old 16th January 2020, 02:25 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Is it?
Yes.
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Old 16th January 2020, 02:28 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
Since I just recently finished this...
(18x24 in. acrylic)
Nice!
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Old 16th January 2020, 04:44 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
That's disingenuous leaving out the point I was actually making and selectively quoting to make it look like I was agreeing with you. My point was "Hardly "... have been increasing exponentially for decades.""
Sorry, who was selectively quoting you? I've only quoted psionl0, agreeing that license requirements have been getting stricter since I first got mine decades ago. You provided a counterexample from your own experience, and there's nothing at all wrong with that.

Maybe you have a problem with the word "exponentially", and I would agree that technically that's not an appropriate word because it isn't a mathematical progression, exponential or otherwise. But speaking rhetorically, which psionl0 was, it conveys the meaning in a reasonable manner.
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Old 16th January 2020, 04:46 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Is it?
Yes, it is. Your first point was that license requirements have been getting stricter for decades. Your second point was that there are votes in making them stricter. Your second point explained the first, but they are not the same point.
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Old 26th June 2020, 04:24 AM   #110
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Some interesting counterintuitive stuff here about traffic.
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Old 26th June 2020, 05:13 AM   #111
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An issue with roundabouts here in the US is that about one out of four drivers confuse them with all-way stops. That "yield to the vehicle on right" BS they were taught makes them stop when they see a car to the right of them. But, of course, that car is yielding to the one on the left and everything comes to a stop.
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Old 26th June 2020, 08:56 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by jadebox View Post
An issue with roundabouts here in the US is that about one out of four drivers confuse them with all-way stops. That "yield to the vehicle on right" BS they were taught makes them stop when they see a car to the right of them. But, of course, that car is yielding to the one on the left and everything comes to a stop.
Yielding to the vehicle on the right makes a lot of sense, actually, If one is seeking to avoid T-boning another driver. I don't know why you would think it BS.
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Old 26th June 2020, 09:21 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Yielding to the vehicle on the right makes a lot of sense, actually, If one is seeking to avoid T-boning another driver. I don't know why you would think it BS.

But that only applies if the two cars get there at the same time. The odds of two people agreeing that has happened is small.

The usual case when two cars arrive at a four way stop at approximately the same time is that there is a negotiation of sorts.
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Old 26th June 2020, 10:54 AM   #114
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“It was a four-way stop dilemma,
We all arrived, the same time...
I yielded to the man, to the right of me,
And he yielded, right back to mine...
The yield went around, and around, and around,
Till Pamela finally tried...
Just then the man, in the light blue sedan,
Hit Pamela’s passenger side...”

John Prine, “The Accident”.
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Old 26th June 2020, 10:58 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Yielding to the vehicle on the right makes a lot of sense, actually, If one is seeking to avoid T-boning another driver. I don't know why you would think it BS.
It's not BS at a regular intersection most of the time. There is a pretty standard code for this which works very well in places where people aren't ***** about it.

At a typical four way intersection, for example, the first right of way goes to priority. Whoever got there first goes first, assuming this is known. If two arrive and it's not entirely certain, usually someone will make a gesture of courtesy and the other will go ahead.

The second right of way, where two or more vehicles arrive at the same time, goes to the one on the right. That obviously works when fewer than four arrive at the same time.

In the event that more than three arrive, the right of way depends on courtesy, with someone waving another through. Ideally the first through would be someone who is signalling a right turn at the intersection, followed by those going through it, followed by anyone making a left.

Here in Vermont, there are a few such intersections in busy places, and it generally works OK. Smooth operation depends largely on people not being ***** about it. Once the sequence begins, the right-first rule kicks in and order continues.

The problem arises because before the recent proliferation of "roundabout" traffic circles in which the ROW goes to the person already in it, who is always to the left of anyone entering, the rule for traffic circles remained, counterintuitively, "right first." People who don't think or don't read the signs prominently displayed at every modern roundabout saying something like "yield to traffic on the left" will look to the right and smash in.

There really never should have been a "right first" rule for circles and roundabouts, but there was, and it's going to cause problems for a long time.
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Old 26th June 2020, 05:35 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Yielding to the vehicle on the right makes a lot of sense, actually, If one is seeking to avoid T-boning another driver. I don't know why you would think it BS.
Roads leading into an all-way stop are like spikes in a wheel. Each road is to the right of another. Strictly following that rule would lead to no one being able to proceed.

Consider a typical four-way stop with two cars arriving from opposite directions and both turning left. Each is equally right of the other. Which goes first?

The first car to stop should be the first to proceed. .Of course, in real-life it isn't so straight-out forward and often both cars will wait on each other until one takes the initiative.

One thing I do like about roundabouts is that the ambiguity is less..It is more obvious when it is your turn to proceed.

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Old 26th June 2020, 08:53 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by jadebox View Post
Roads leading into an all-way stop are like spikes in a wheel. Each road is to the right of another. Strictly following that rule would lead to no one being able to proceed.

Consider a typical four-way stop with two cars arriving from opposite directions and both turning left. Each is equally right of the other. Which goes first?

The first car to stop should be the first to proceed. .Of course, in real-life it isn't so straight-out forward and often both cars will wait on each other until one takes the initiative.

One thing I do like about roundabouts is that the ambiguity is less..It is more obvious when it is your turn to proceed.
There is a busy four-way stop near my home where I encounter the potential stand-off quite often. My strategy is to slow down as I'm approaching the intersection so I'm obviously the last person to arrive. I've seen too many "arguments" where people insist they were there first (even if they made a rolling stop far back from the sign) that it's dangerous to do otherwise.
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Old 26th June 2020, 11:11 PM   #118
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There's a three-way stop near me where every tenth driver or so from one direction tries to ride through on the coattails of the car in front of them, and often almost collides with the left-turning car going the other way. It's a T intersection and the problem direction is coming left-to-right across the top of the T. I don't encounter many of those, so I'm not sure if it is common to three-way Ts, or something unique about this one.
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Old 27th June 2020, 04:15 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by jadebox View Post
Roads leading into an all-way stop are like spikes in a wheel. Each road is to the right of another. Strictly following that rule would lead to no one being able to proceed.

Consider a typical four-way stop with two cars arriving from opposite directions and both turning left. Each is equally right of the other. Which goes first?

The first car to stop should be the first to proceed. .Of course, in real-life it isn't so straight-out forward and often both cars will wait on each other until one takes the initiative.

One thing I do like about roundabouts is that the ambiguity is less..It is more obvious when it is your turn to proceed.
True, if the roundabout is large enough that the car to your left is actually on the roundabout itself. We have such a thing as a mini roundabout, which is a 3 or 4 way give way, and the same "who goes first" tends to occur if all the incoming lanes are filled at the same time. In the end someone has to make a move, but at least they aren't so likely to get shot for it here. The other useful difference for us is that the right of way is the same side as for a large roundabout....

Last edited by Lplus; 27th June 2020 at 04:17 AM.
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Old 28th June 2020, 09:41 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Last time I was in a roundabout, I called it morning driving through the sound and in and out the valley. Then some mountains came out of the sky and they stood there. It was really confusing, and it didn't seem very safe either.
Yes.
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