ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 7th February 2018, 05:39 PM   #201
sts60
Illuminator
 
sts60's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,397
Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
This is all so wonderful , the passing of the baton from NASA to private industry. When the shuttle retired, you had to wonder if we were out of the space business, despite claims that private industry would take over.
The baton is only the one for hauling cargo and passengers to space. NASA has Been There and Done That. Lifting people and stuff into Earth orbit is not exploration anymore; itís logistics for the real exploration. If we can do that part more cheaply with the purely commercial arrangement, fine.

And yes, it takes more time and a lot more money for NASA to build the new super-heavy-lift rocket. As people have pointed out, a lot of it has to do with Congress pulling things every which way and constantly screwing with the budget. Part of it has to do with the inevitable inertia and inefficiencies of a large, established organization. But you also have to remember that NASA is custodian of national assets in a way that dwarfs the responsibilities of SpaceX. They canít just clean-sheet and throw away the LC-39 infrastructure; thatís untold billions of dollars of unique and irreplaceable capabilities. So, while SpaceX can lease LC-39A and just waltz up with their own horizontal assembly approach and make use of the existing pad and range infrastructure and Ignore everything else, NASA basically has to use the same flow with the same facilities as Apollo and Shuttle - while upgrading everything and making it compatible with potential future commercial users.
sts60 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th February 2018, 05:47 PM   #202
macdoc
Philosopher
 
macdoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Planet earth on slow boil
Posts: 7,965
BTW Apollo 13 is on Netflix
macdoc is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th February 2018, 06:01 PM   #203
sts60
Illuminator
 
sts60's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,397
Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
So it is in a harmless orbit. Fine, but that was, apparently, a 50% chance. What if it hadn't reached an escape orbit?

It's no big deal, but I find it tasteless.

Hans
Iíve already elaborated why I donít find it tasteless, and I hate billboards and most advertising. But YMMV.

For the first part, other people have already answered, but I think it bears emphasizing that there was no additional hazard with the test mass used. Probably less; a car is less robust than solid chunks of metal or concrete.

And one thing that NASA does dictate is the means to destroy the rocket on ascent if it decides it would rather visit Orlando than Mars. The selection, integration, and test of the range safety devices is tightly enforced by NASA, unlike most of the rest of the development. And the little car and the big rocket it rides on are carefully monitored by Air Force personnel in a windowless building over on the Cape side, and those folks will rend the whole thing asunder right quick if it goes astray en route to space.
sts60 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th February 2018, 06:07 PM   #204
Checkmite
Skepticifimisticalationist
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Gulf Coast
Posts: 24,840
Originally Posted by sts60 View Post
And one thing that NASA does dictate is the means to destroy the rocket on ascent if it decides it would rather visit Orlando than Mars. The selection, integration, and test of the range safety devices is tightly enforced by NASA, unlike most of the rest of the development.
We've been able to see these devices in action on a couple of occasions, too - they are highly effective. In fact I believe one was activated just a couple of years ago - I don't think it was on a SpaceX vehicle, but I believe it is essentially the same system on all rockets no matter the manufacturer.
__________________
"ŅWHAT KIND OF BIRD?
ŅA PARANORMAL BIRD?"
--- Carlos S., 2002
Checkmite is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th February 2018, 06:08 PM   #205
sts60
Illuminator
 
sts60's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,397
Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
...After years of working very hard for SpaceX competitors, I have spent a fair amount of time resenting SpaceX fandom. But in my older age I've come to see that whatever its faults may be, and whatever the faults of its founder, SpaceX has reinvigorated public interest and enthusiasm for space, which is something that I think has been sorely lacking in recent decades. I think that's a good thing. So the other reason he launches a car and faux driver into space is that most people find it entertaining. It's a lot more entertaining that launching a pile of concrete castings into orbit, which is what we usually do. And that has ongoing value for everyone in the industry, not just Tesla drivers or SpaceX.
I used to work for a SpaceX competitor, though not in anything related to the competition part. I feel pretty much the same way you do. Most people not really informed on space things kind of mash it altogether in one idea-ball and call it ďNASAĒ anyway, after the initial publicity wears off.
sts60 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th February 2018, 06:12 PM   #206
Marcus
Illuminator
 
Marcus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,156
sts60, I am very much looking forward to the SLS launch next year. I do have to wonder though, if the tremendous costs associated with NASA don't go beyond the infrastructure like LC-39, "inertia and inefficiencies" like you say. Do you think that space exploration could eventually be made to pay for itself by private industry, PR stunts, space tourism, ect.?
Marcus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th February 2018, 06:13 PM   #207
sts60
Illuminator
 
sts60's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,397
Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
We've been able to see these devices in action on a couple of occasions, too - they are highly effective. In fact I believe one was activated just a couple of years ago - I don't think it was on a SpaceX vehicle, but I believe it is essentially the same system on all rockets no matter the manufacturer.
I had the ďpleasureĒ of being aboard a Shuttle on the pad, running tests on our payload, when they announced a test of the range safety system. That was OK, but the techs in the crew compartment with me started arguing about what kept the test from becoming the real thing. Iíve come to believe they were just screwing with me. :-)
sts60 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th February 2018, 06:34 PM   #208
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 88,393
Originally Posted by macdoc View Post
BTW Apollo 13 is on Netflix
It's also on Blu-Ray.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th February 2018, 07:01 PM   #209
sts60
Illuminator
 
sts60's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,397
Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
sts60, I am very much looking forward to the SLS launch next year. I do have to wonder though, if the tremendous costs associated with NASA don't go beyond the infrastructure like LC-39, "inertia and inefficiencies" like you say. Do you think that space exploration could eventually be made to pay for itself by private industry, PR stunts, space tourism, ect.?
Space tourism, both actual and virtual (like teleoperated lunar rovers) will eventually pay for itself, I imagine. Suborbital tourism will be the first; itís by far the easiest.

Serious manned exploration and exploration and colonization of the Moon and Mars takes national resources; no company can do it yet, unless a group of multi- (and I mean multi) billionaires decide to collectively put all their money into it with no clear prospect of getting any of it back. If we could develop such an exploration infrastructure, e.g., water extraction on the Moon with mass drivers to get it as water (or hydrogen and oxygen already split for fuel) cheaply to space vehicles, that would open up more commercial prospects.

Then there are other applications, like robotically finding and returning a nice chunk of valuable metals in an asteroid, which sound relatively cheap but will need more working out than, say, ďweíll just use solar-electric propulsion to drop the 500-ton boulder from space into our yard! No worries!Ē (Iím not warranting thatís what people really thinking about it are saying, mind you; Iím just illustrating.)
sts60 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th February 2018, 07:22 PM   #210
crescent
Illuminator
 
crescent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,357
Originally Posted by sts60 View Post
Debits for failure to retrieve the core F9, and apparent failure to insert the payload into the desired Mars cycler orbit. The latter would be a much bigger deal if it actually mattered where the car went, but it doesnít.
On some other forums people are suggesting that getting out to where the aphelion intersects with Mars orbit was just a minimal goal. They also wanted to make sure the second stage could reignite after a longer period of time had elapsed than previously tried, and they just wanted to run it fully out of fuel, the further/faster it went, the better. Mars was the minimum target distance, but further was better.

So I have heard others argue. I have not heard that from SpaceX.
crescent is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th February 2018, 07:25 PM   #211
alfaniner
Penultimate Amazing
 
alfaniner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 21,449
Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
I wonder if the battery will keep its charge? Gonna need headlights out there, and it could get chilly.
Don't need headlights. The Sun's always up!
__________________
Science is self-correcting.
Woo is self-contradicting.
alfaniner is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th February 2018, 10:10 PM   #212
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 26,486
angrysoba has a birthday
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
There are people who complain about the eradication of polio.
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
What? Where?
Quote:
Seven Pakistani policemen, three of whom were guarding polio workers, have been killed in Karachi, officials say.

Eight gunmen on motorcycles fired at a group of three police guards and later at a van containing four officers, officials told the Pakistan Tribune.

Islamist militants oppose vaccination, saying it is a Western conspiracy to sterilise Pakistani children.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-36090891

There are always people who complain about progress in one way or another. If people can be against polio vaccination, of course there will be people against launching cars into space.

"Why did you have to do that? Why couldn't you have done something differently!?"
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th February 2018, 10:15 PM   #213
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 26,486
angrysoba has a birthday
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post

SpaceX is the closest thing to a legit space program we have right now. I'll tolerate a little bit of eccentricity for that.
Tolerate it!? I think the eccentricity is a bonus! I would think the use of the car has only increased interest in the space program, rather than diminished it. That can only be a good thing, in my opinion.
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th February 2018, 10:18 PM   #214
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 26,486
angrysoba has a birthday
Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post

If I want to pin it down, I think I'm probably less annoyed by the fact that it happened, or that people who enjoyed it are all "lol, car in space with a little guy in it!" as a result which is fine, than I am with the fact that some (not in this forum, necessarily) seemed in the aftermath of the launch to be pressing to portray the First Advert in Space as having the same landmark historical achievement status as other space achievements that were actually noteworthy. I suppose it's an important landmark for SpaceX as a corporation, but that doesn't mean anything to me; there was nothing especially noteworthy about this launch as a space launch save for its ridiculous payload. Certainly nothing along the lines of the first time a Falcon booster successfully landed, which was a great achievement for space transport in general.
I think Elon Musk has generated more interest in space than has been around for a long time. The fact that more people are excited about it than before is a thing to be celebrated, not bemoaned.
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th February 2018, 10:30 PM   #215
Elagabalus
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 5,355
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
So at this point we've sent aliens nude photos with directions to our place, a mix tape, and now a car.

Are we trying to make contact with aliens or trying to seduce them?
As much as alien primordial sludge, to busy consuming and defecating through the same primitive buccal cavity, can be seduced!*






*Whaaaaaaaaat? I can do cynical ....
Elagabalus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2018, 01:10 AM   #216
Reactor drone
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,182
Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
So it is in a harmless orbit. Fine, but that was, apparently, a 50% chance. What if it hadn't reached an escape orbit?

It's no big deal, but I find it tasteless.

Hans
Initial parking orbit had a perigee of about 180km so even if the second stage had failed to relight it would get dragged down by the atmosphere fairly quickly.

Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
It was literally made out of known-good Falcon 9 rockets bolted together.
Apart from the core, that's a completely different airframe.
Reactor drone is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2018, 02:15 AM   #217
Matthew Best
Philosopher
 
Matthew Best's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Leicester Square, London
Posts: 7,271
Originally Posted by macdoc View Post
Really good amateur footage of the dual landing ...turn the sound up

http://digg.com/video/simultaneous-l...cex-sonic-boom

anyone who watched this live should have been simply mind boggled
That is seriously cool, but that enormous noise isn't a sonic boom, is it? I mean, it's a noise so it could be called "sonic", and it's a booming sound, so it called be called a "boom", but it's not a sonic boom as I understand the term, as those rockets are slowing down, not breaking the sound barrier.
Matthew Best is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2018, 02:18 AM   #218
MRC_Hans
Penultimate Amazing
 
MRC_Hans's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 22,548
Originally Posted by sts60 View Post
Iíve already elaborated why I donít find it tasteless, and I hate billboards and most advertising. But YMMV.

For the first part, other people have already answered, but I think it bears emphasizing that there was no additional hazard with the test mass used. Probably less; a car is less robust than solid chunks of metal or concrete.

And one thing that NASA does dictate is the means to destroy the rocket on ascent if it decides it would rather visit Orlando than Mars. The selection, integration, and test of the range safety devices is tightly enforced by NASA, unlike most of the rest of the development. And the little car and the big rocket it rides on are carefully monitored by Air Force personnel in a windowless building over on the Cape side, and those folks will rend the whole thing asunder right quick if it goes astray en route to space.
The car is far more harmless than the rocket (I do assume it does not contain a battery), but .... the rocket is necessary for the test. The car is not.

A harmless dummy payload would be water, possibly as gel.

Well, it's there. So be it.

Hans
__________________
Experience is an excellent teacher, but she sends large bills.
MRC_Hans is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2018, 02:20 AM   #219
MikeG
Now. Do it now.
 
MikeG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 24,804
Originally Posted by fagin View Post
Plus a bit of duct tape, obviously.
Duck tape.
__________________
"The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place." The Don That's what we've sunk to here.
MikeG is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2018, 02:30 AM   #220
autumn1971
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,111
Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
That is seriously cool, but that enormous noise isn't a sonic boom, is it? I mean, it's a noise so it could be called "sonic", and it's a booming sound, so it called be called a "boom", but it's not a sonic boom as I understand the term, as those rockets are slowing down, not breaking the sound barrier.
They had slowed down, but were supersonic until a relatively low altitude. So the booms were true sonic booms catching up to suddenly sub-sonic boosters.

Sonic booms only travel at the speed of sound, and the returning rockets didn't get that slow until their final burns.
__________________
'A knave; a rascal; an eater of broken meats; a base, proud, shallow, beggardly, three-suited, hundred-pound, filthy, worsted-stocking knave; a lily-livered, action-taking knave, a whoreson, glass-gazing, superservicable, finical rogue;... the son and heir of a mongral bitch: one whom I will beat into clamorous whining, if thou deniest the least syllable of thy addition."'
-The Bard
autumn1971 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2018, 02:32 AM   #221
autumn1971
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,111
also, every time I visit this thread I have to watch the boosters landing. Makes me feel tingly, off to do it now.
__________________
'A knave; a rascal; an eater of broken meats; a base, proud, shallow, beggardly, three-suited, hundred-pound, filthy, worsted-stocking knave; a lily-livered, action-taking knave, a whoreson, glass-gazing, superservicable, finical rogue;... the son and heir of a mongral bitch: one whom I will beat into clamorous whining, if thou deniest the least syllable of thy addition."'
-The Bard
autumn1971 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2018, 02:35 AM   #222
Clive
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 368
Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
That is seriously cool, but that enormous noise isn't a sonic boom, is it? I mean, it's a noise so it could be called "sonic", and it's a booming sound, so it called be called a "boom", but it's not a sonic boom as I understand the term, as those rockets are slowing down, not breaking the sound barrier.
A sonic boom comes from an object travelling through something like the atmosphere at more than the speed of sound, not from slowing down as such, nor only breaking through the "sound barrier".

The "boom" heard was generated when the boosters were exceeding the speed of sound. If a jet flies overhead (and reasonably "close" to you) at a constant but supersonic speed, you will hear a sonic boom.

Last edited by Clive; 8th February 2018 at 02:36 AM. Reason: Fix typo
Clive is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2018, 02:56 AM   #223
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 19,232
Originally Posted by Crawtator View Post
Do you really believe that it was as easy as that? I mean....really?!


Next week he's going to triple the payload by strapping nine cores together. After all, if it's trivially easy...

Some people do not have a *********** clue.
__________________
Up the River!

Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted]
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2018, 03:05 AM   #224
Roboramma
Penultimate Amazing
 
Roboramma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 13,496
Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Next week he's going to triple the payload by strapping nine cores together. After all, if it's trivially easy...

Some people do not have a *********** clue.
Come on man, it only cost them half a billion dollars to develop that rocket. Something that cheap must have been easy.
__________________
"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together."
Isaac Asimov
Roboramma is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2018, 04:11 AM   #225
Tolls
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,971
Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
A harmless dummy payload would be water, possibly as gel.
Why would that be more harmless than the car?
They would both have the same mass and velocity.
Tolls is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2018, 04:28 AM   #226
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 19,232
Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
Why would that be more harmless than the car?
They would both have the same mass and velocity.
Added complexity with baffles or a pressurised vessel in order to stop what would probably be terminal sloshing around
__________________
Up the River!

Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted]
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2018, 04:55 AM   #227
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 89,810
Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
I would be pissed if a government agency had done it. In the present circumstance I'm merely disappointed, like the parent of a teenager who got busted for shoplifting.
Why? Really don't understand why you are so negative about the launch.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2018, 05:05 AM   #228
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 26,486
angrysoba has a birthday
Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
More like a parent whose child pulls out a straight-A report card to show me on the way home from the police station where I had to pick her up because she got busted for shoplifting.
It reminds me of the Peep Show episode after Jeremy is caught shoplifing:

Jeremy [indignantly]: You know how I feel about capitalism.

Mark: Yes, confused!
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2018, 05:27 AM   #229
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 19,232
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Why? Really don't understand why you are so negative about the launch.
It's either total Bobbing or he's jealous that he's not a genius multimillionaire.
__________________
Up the River!

Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted]
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2018, 05:50 AM   #230
Porpoise of Life
Illuminator
 
Porpoise of Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 4,950
My guess is that he doesn't think it's dignified and detached enough to be respectable. Like having bikini babes present the cure for cancer.

I don't agree, but I see where he's coming from.
Space exploration has always been a solemn government labcoaty kind of affair, and Musk made a bit of a circus out of his launch.
But hey, you can't expect to involve commercial parties and not expect them to be commercial.
Porpoise of Life is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2018, 06:09 AM   #231
The Norseman
Meandering fecklessly
 
The Norseman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,405
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I think Elon Musk has generated more interest in space than has been around for a long time. The fact that more people are excited about it than before is a thing to be celebrated, not bemoaned.
Yes, this describes me as a matter of fact.

For years as I grew older, all I could look forward to was the constant cutting back of the NASA budget and no more wonderful inventions that the non-military side of government provided (my life would have been sadly diminished if it weren't for Tang as I'm sure everyone will agree) nor any more work developing treks to the stars.

But, then again, perhaps like many people as well, I stopped following what was going on with most of space exploration; I fully admit I am therefore ignorant of the goings on in that arena and there probably is a vast amount of interesting things that have been happening behind my veil of general disgust and disquiet.

However, watching the take off and landing of the two booster stages and seeing footage of the Earth from a Roadster ó I swear, I literally wouldn't have believed it was real had I not seen the news broadcast explaining it; the video was so crisp and clean, it first looked like some idiotic commercial that was CGI. I mean, how would a frikkin' car be circling the Earth with a laid-back-looking dude in a space suit?!

But! It did the job and caught my attention. Watching the almost perfect landing of the two rockets was breathtaking, IMO. I'd never seen anything like it and it once again kindled an excitement about space exploration I haven't had since I was a kid.
The Norseman is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2018, 06:11 AM   #232
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 88,393
Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
Yes, this describes me as a matter of fact.

For years as I grew older, all I could look forward to was the constant cutting back of the NASA budget and no more wonderful inventions that the non-military side of government provided (my life would have been sadly diminished if it weren't for Tang as I'm sure everyone will agree) nor any more work developing treks to the stars.

But, then again, perhaps like many people as well, I stopped following what was going on with most of space exploration; I fully admit I am therefore ignorant of the goings on in that arena and there probably is a vast amount of interesting things that have been happening behind my veil of general disgust and disquiet.

However, watching the take off and landing of the two booster stages and seeing footage of the Earth from a Roadster ó I swear, I literally wouldn't have believed it was real had I not seen the news broadcast explaining it; the video was so crisp and clean, it first looked like some idiotic commercial that was CGI. I mean, how would a frikkin' car be circling the Earth with a laid-back-looking dude in a space suit?!

But! It did the job and caught my attention. Watching the almost perfect landing of the two rockets was breathtaking, IMO. I'd never seen anything like it and it once again kindled an excitement about space exploration I haven't had since I was a kid.
Now see, that's the proper response to all this.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2018, 06:30 AM   #233
Matthew Best
Philosopher
 
Matthew Best's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Leicester Square, London
Posts: 7,271
Originally Posted by Clive View Post
A sonic boom comes from an object travelling through something like the atmosphere at more than the speed of sound, not from slowing down as such, nor only breaking through the "sound barrier".

The "boom" heard was generated when the boosters were exceeding the speed of sound. If a jet flies overhead (and reasonably "close" to you) at a constant but supersonic speed, you will hear a sonic boom.
I assumed the noise was just the noise of the rocket boosters firing. I imagine they're pretty loud whatever speed they go at.
Matthew Best is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2018, 06:58 AM   #234
MRC_Hans
Penultimate Amazing
 
MRC_Hans's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 22,548
Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
Why would that be more harmless than the car?
They would both have the same mass and velocity.
I can't believe you asked that question.

Hans
__________________
Experience is an excellent teacher, but she sends large bills.
MRC_Hans is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2018, 07:00 AM   #235
MRC_Hans
Penultimate Amazing
 
MRC_Hans's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 22,548
Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Added complexity with baffles or a pressurised vessel in order to stop what would probably be terminal sloshing around
Gel, ice .... The point is that water disperses and eventually evaporates if accidentally released e.g. high in the atmosphere.

.... The car it is, so ... over and out.

Hans
__________________
Experience is an excellent teacher, but she sends large bills.
MRC_Hans is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2018, 07:15 AM   #236
rwguinn
Penultimate Amazing
 
rwguinn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 16 miles from 7 lakes
Posts: 11,104
Originally Posted by SusanB-M1 View Post
Thank you. I hope it doesn't cause an accident by being space junk and the space station bumping into it or something!
Bags of cement/sand or chunks of lead/steel/ unobtanium would be in the same godsdamned orbit, and considerably less findable.
In fact, sand or cement bags would deteriorate and manufacture billions of micrometeorites...
__________________
"Political correctness is a doctrine,...,which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."
"
I pointed out that his argument was wrong in every particular, but he rightfully took me to task for attacking only the weak points." Myriad http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=6853275#post6853275
rwguinn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2018, 07:16 AM   #237
erlando
Graduate Poster
 
erlando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,649
Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Gel, ice .... The point is that water disperses and eventually evaporates if accidentally released e.g. high in the atmosphere.

.... The car it is, so ... over and out.

Hans
I can see several problems with both a large amount of ice or a large amount of gel.

The gel will slosh around increasing the risk of mission failure. With the ice you increase the complexity because you essentially have to keep it cooled or deal with the melted water possibly for days.

I really don't get the outrage about the car. It's a gimmick. You (ETA: the general you - not you personally) really have to be an old, bitter man to get upset over something like this.
__________________
"If it can grow, it can evolve" - Eugenie Scott, Ph.D Creationism disproved?
Evolution IS a blind watchmaker

Last edited by erlando; 8th February 2018 at 07:17 AM.
erlando is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2018, 07:20 AM   #238
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 26,486
angrysoba has a birthday
Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
Yes, this describes me as a matter of fact.

For years as I grew older, all I could look forward to was the constant cutting back of the NASA budget and no more wonderful inventions that the non-military side of government provided (my life would have been sadly diminished if it weren't for Tang as I'm sure everyone will agree) nor any more work developing treks to the stars.

But, then again, perhaps like many people as well, I stopped following what was going on with most of space exploration; I fully admit I am therefore ignorant of the goings on in that arena and there probably is a vast amount of interesting things that have been happening behind my veil of general disgust and disquiet.

However, watching the take off and landing of the two booster stages and seeing footage of the Earth from a Roadster ó I swear, I literally wouldn't have believed it was real had I not seen the news broadcast explaining it; the video was so crisp and clean, it first looked like some idiotic commercial that was CGI. I mean, how would a frikkin' car be circling the Earth with a laid-back-looking dude in a space suit?!

But! It did the job and caught my attention. Watching the almost perfect landing of the two rockets was breathtaking, IMO. I'd never seen anything like it and it once again kindled an excitement about space exploration I haven't had since I was a kid.
Absolutely!

It's astonishing and amazing what SpaceX has done, and some of the reactions have been astonishing and amazing as well - for different reasons.

"Putting a car in space? What a circus! Landing the rocket boosters? Oh, puh-leaze...that's been done!"

How did some people get so jaded and so outraged at the same time?

I suppose the last time that space news has been so exciting is when they managed to land a probe on a comet some dude had the audacity to wear an "inappropriate" shirt. The po-faced brigade was out in force then as well to rubbish great achievements with their petty-minded griping.
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2018, 07:20 AM   #239
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 19,232
Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Gel, ice .... The point is that water disperses and eventually evaporates if accidentally released e.g. high in the atmosphere.
So will a car if it's high and fast enough.
__________________
Up the River!

Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted]
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2018, 07:30 AM   #240
The Norseman
Meandering fecklessly
 
The Norseman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,405
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Absolutely!

It's astonishing and amazing what SpaceX has done, and some of the reactions have been astonishing and amazing as well - for different reasons.

"Putting a car in space? What a circus! Landing the rocket boosters? Oh, puh-leaze...that's been done!"

How did some people get so jaded and so outraged at the same time?

I suppose the last time that space news has been so exciting is when they managed to land a probe on a comet some dude had the audacity to wear an "inappropriate" shirt. The po-faced brigade was out in force then as well to rubbish great achievements with their petty-minded griping.
I mean, I do understand Checkmite's point of view; I'm quite like-mindedly jaded (is 'mindedly' even a word? Well, it is now.) when it comes to adverts and the "look at me and how awesome I am" attitudes often exhibited by the super-wealthy.

I do get it and nearly always I would be marching right along Checkmite's side. Except in this instance where the advert worked. It got my attention long enough to demonstrate how advanced it's gotten, how much progress has been made even without government funding (but with government help) towards getting off the planet perhaps now within my lifetime.

I frankly do not believe anyone with that kind of wealth actually "earned it" though that rant is for another time. But. I personally am willing to let it slide because of how humanity benefits from their work and their risk and their efforts. That's where I draw the line, I guess.

Last edited by The Norseman; 8th February 2018 at 07:32 AM.
The Norseman is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:08 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.