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Tags Boston incidents , suicide incidents

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Old 28th October 2019, 04:36 PM   #1
Puppycow
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Another woman accused of causing her boyfriend's suicide

Woman charged with urging boyfriend to kill himself in "suicide by text" case in Boston

Quote:
Prosecutors say a former Boston College student who had "complete and total control" over her boyfriend has been indicted on an involuntary manslaughter charge for allegedly encouraging him to take his own life. Suffolk District Attorney Rachael Rollins announced the indictment against 21-year-old Inyoung You during a news conference Monday.

Rollins said You and Alexander Urtula exchanged thousands of text messages, including "hundreds" in which she urged Urtula to kill himself.

Urtula leapt to his death from a parking garage in Boston on May 20, the day of his Boston College graduation, as his family, in town from New Jersey, waited for him to arrive at the ceremony. Rollins said You had been tracking Urtula's location on her cell phone and was "present" when he killed himself, but did not detail their interactions leading up to his death.
On the day of his college graduation??? I understand that people commit suicide, but isn't the day you graduate from college supposed to be a happy one?

This one's a little hard to evaluate because they don't give any specific quotes from the texts, but they claim this woman had "complete and total control" over her boyfriend?? She would use threats of self-harm to manipulate him supposedly.
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Old 28th October 2019, 05:41 PM   #2
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Horrible. Disgusting. I hope she won't see the light of day ever again. Prison.
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Old 28th October 2019, 06:02 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
Horrible. Disgusting. I hope she won't see the light of day ever again. Prison.
We're hearing only one side of the story here. The prosecutor's side.

I wouldn't be so quick to be sure. Even the alleged evidence is only described in a general way, without specifics.

Maybe she's a monster. I'd just need to hear what a good defense attorney would have to say before being so sure.
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Old 28th October 2019, 06:55 PM   #4
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In the two months before Urtula's suicide, the couple exchanged more than 75,000 text messages, about 47,000 of which were sent by You, Rollins said.
I didn't really think about it at first, but that seems like a lot of text messages for a 2 month period. If 2 months means 62 days, that would be about 1209 texts per day, 67 per hour if they sleep 6 hours per night. More than 1 text every minute! I think I would have a difficult time doing anything else if constantly being bombarded with texts every minute from morning to night. No wonder he did himself in!

Personally, I wouldn't put up with it. I'd have to mute them or something. Turn off my phone.
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Old 28th October 2019, 07:01 PM   #5
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I'm really torn on this.

The actions, (if they occurred as the side of the story we have gotten so far states, retaining the right to adjust this opinion as we gain more information) taken by the woman are morally reprehensible on a scale I find hard to put into words. It's sadistic in a way that even violence doesn't strike me as and seems to have no upside for the woman in question outside of the sadism.

But the legal ramifications of this rub me the wrong way. I've long argued that the law, by it's very design, is the one place where the slippery slope argument doesn't apply and this is precedent we should be very, very careful about setting.

I don't like it when my moral and practical centers don't align.
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Old 28th October 2019, 07:09 PM   #6
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Sounds good like this guy could have used a good dose of MGTOW.
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Old 28th October 2019, 07:17 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
We're hearing only one side of the story here. The prosecutor's side.

I wouldn't be so quick to be sure. Even the alleged evidence is only described in a general way, without specifics.

Maybe she's a monster. I'd just need to hear what a good defense attorney would have to say before being so sure.
Fair enough. My reaction was knee-jerk.
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Old 28th October 2019, 07:27 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Sounds good like this guy could have used a good dose of MGTOW.
Or just a different girlfriend. Seems like he had the girlfriend from hell.

I don't have a problem with MGTOW. Nobody should feel like they need to be in a relationship if it's not for them. I'm sure some people are happier being single. But this is an extreme case, with what appears to be a very abusive person. There's lots of kinder women out there.
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Old 28th October 2019, 07:31 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
Fair enough. My reaction was knee-jerk.
I may be coming around to your view.

I'm guessing though that this woman had some mental issues of her own as well.
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Old 28th October 2019, 08:06 PM   #10
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More details here.
Quote:
Suffolk County District Attorney Rachael Rollins announced involuntary manslaughter charges Monday against Inyoung You, after she said investigators found evidence that You was “physically, verbally, and psychologically abusive” toward Urtula during their 18-month relationship — and that the “abuse became more frequent and more powerful, and more demeaning, in the days and hours leading up to” his death.
https://www.boston.com/news/crime/20...e-suicide-case

I dunno, if you know that somebody is psychologically fragile, and you tell him continuously that he's worthless and should kill himself, you might have the same legal responsibility as if you handed him a loaded gun and said "Do it!"
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Old 28th October 2019, 08:16 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
More details here.
https://www.boston.com/news/crime/20...e-suicide-case

I dunno, if you know that somebody is psychologically fragile, and you tell him continuously that he's worthless and should kill himself, you might have the same legal responsibility as if you handed him a loaded gun and said "Do it!"
Devil's advocate: If I were the defendant's lawyer, I think I might argue that the prosecutor here, with this press conference, is trying to try this case in the press rather than the courtroom, and is tainting the jury pool with prejudicial information.
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Old 28th October 2019, 08:20 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Devil's advocate: If I were the defendant's lawyer, I think I might argue that the prosecutor here, with this press conference, is trying to try this case in the press rather than the courtroom, and is tainting the jury pool with prejudicial information.
It's pretty standard for prosecutors to announce prosecutions in major cases and the reasons therefore. The alternative would be people getting swept off the streets and locked up with no public explanation. In general, her lawyer will have far more latitude to make public statements about the case, including outright lying, than the prosecutor will have.

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Old 28th October 2019, 09:05 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'm really torn on this.

The actions, (if they occurred as the side of the story we have gotten so far states, retaining the right to adjust this opinion as we gain more information) taken by the woman are morally reprehensible on a scale I find hard to put into words. It's sadistic in a way that even violence doesn't strike me as and seems to have no upside for the woman in question outside of the sadism.

But the legal ramifications of this rub me the wrong way. I've long argued that the law, by it's very design, is the one place where the slippery slope argument doesn't apply and this is precedent we should be very, very careful about setting.

I don't like it when my moral and practical centers don't align.
The question seems simple enough - did you or did you not coerce someone to commit suicide? The evidential bar should be high, but there is no reason in principle why it cannot be met.
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Old 28th October 2019, 10:22 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
I didn't really think about it at first, but that seems like a lot of text messages for a 2 month period. If 2 months means 62 days, that would be about 1209 texts per day, 67 per hour if they sleep 6 hours per night. More than 1 text every minute! I think I would have a difficult time doing anything else if constantly being bombarded with texts every minute from morning to night. No wonder he did himself in!

Personally, I wouldn't put up with it. I'd have to mute them or something. Turn off my phone.
Gezzes

I wouldn't send that many in a year, let alone a day.

Feel sorry for the poor sap who has trawl through them all.

Just heard on the news the girl is currently in South Korea, so it is relying on her to hand herself in or applying for arrest and deportation.
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Old 28th October 2019, 10:47 PM   #15
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They might be able to have her extradited if she won't come voluntarily.
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Old 28th October 2019, 10:57 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
They might be able to have her extradited if she won't come voluntarily.
Had a feeling I might have used the opposite word there.

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Old 28th October 2019, 11:01 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Gezzes

I wouldn't send that many in a year, let alone a day.

Feel sorry for the poor sap who has trawl through them all.

Just heard on the news the girl is currently in South Korea, so it is relying on her to hand herself in or applying for arrest and deportation.
They might have just communicated that way on Line or something with loads of smileys, gifs and pictures. It’s not that weird given how a lot of younger people text.
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Old 28th October 2019, 11:08 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Gezzes

I wouldn't send that many in a year, let alone a day.

Feel sorry for the poor sap who has trawl through them all.

Just heard on the news the girl is currently in South Korea, so it is relying on her to hand herself in or applying for arrest and deportation.
Assuming the numbers are correct, that would be nothing less than a grim paralysis just dealing with them all. How did he have time to graduate? Or eat?
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Old 28th October 2019, 11:27 PM   #19
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I don't understand how people get pressured into committing suicide without an apparent immediate threat.
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Old 29th October 2019, 12:04 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
I don't understand how people get pressured into committing suicide without an apparent immediate threat.

Start here:

Echoism Is the Little-Known Condition that Affects Victims of Narcissistic Abuse (Vice, Dec. 12, 2018)
Why Survivors Of Malignant Narcissists Don’t Get The Justice They Deserve (HuffPost, July 16, 2017)

ETA: After guilty verdict in texting suicide case, what's next for Michelle Carter? (CNN, June 16, 2017 - has links to other articles)
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Old 29th October 2019, 12:38 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Assuming the numbers are correct, that would be nothing less than a grim paralysis just dealing with them all. How did he have time to graduate? Or eat?
According to the article he had already finished enough credits to graduate in December, but the graduation ceremony was in May. The numbers were given for the final 2 months before he committed suicide. And the ratio of texts was roughly 2:1 hers to his.
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Old 29th October 2019, 03:16 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Woman charged with urging boyfriend to kill himself in "suicide by text" case in Boston



On the day of his college graduation??? I understand that people commit suicide, but isn't the day you graduate from college supposed to be a happy one?
Sure but depression and an abusive partner can screw up your life in all kinds of ways.
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Old 29th October 2019, 04:06 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by dann View Post

That's extremely interesting. It would suggest that this poor young man had suffered similar treatment from an adult in his close family when he was younger, which both predisposed him to hook up with an abusive girlfriend and prevented him from breaking off with her when anyone with a normal degree of self-esteem would have walked away long before it got to this.
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Old 29th October 2019, 04:19 AM   #24
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Yes, it's the most likely scenario. I've been there: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...7#post12870687
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Old 29th October 2019, 04:27 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
That's extremely interesting. It would suggest that this poor young man had suffered similar treatment from an adult in his close family when he was younger, which both predisposed him to hook up with an abusive girlfriend and prevented him from breaking off with her when anyone with a normal degree of self-esteem would have walked away long before it got to this.

So the young woman holds no fault then?

I await with baited breath you links to him getting similar treatment from other adults, before discounting your post
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Old 29th October 2019, 04:33 AM   #26
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That's not at all what Rolfe says!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 29th October 2019, 04:38 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
So the young woman holds no fault then?

I await with baited breath you links to him getting similar treatment from other adults, before discounting your post
  1. Rule of so. I said no such thing.
  2. "Bated" breath.
  3. So you're prepared to asphyxiate then?
It was in response to Dann's reply to this very understandable query.

Originally Posted by Venom View Post
I don't understand how people get pressured into committing suicide without an apparent immediate threat.

"Normal" people would be expected to break up with someone as toxic and manipulative as that. The huge question is why someone would fail to do that but instead actually kill himself. The articles Dann linked to go quite some way to explaining that conundrum.
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Old 29th October 2019, 04:57 AM   #28
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And the articles aren't sexist: Both men and women can be both victims and perpetrators of narcissistic abuse. And it isn't confined to parent-children or heterosexual relationships.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 29th October 2019, 05:00 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Yes, it's the most likely scenario. I've been there: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...7#post12870687

Oh dear, that's awful.
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Old 29th October 2019, 05:07 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'm really torn on this.

The actions, (if they occurred as the side of the story we have gotten so far states, retaining the right to adjust this opinion as we gain more information) taken by the woman are morally reprehensible on a scale I find hard to put into words. It's sadistic in a way that even violence doesn't strike me as and seems to have no upside for the woman in question outside of the sadism.

But the legal ramifications of this rub me the wrong way. I've long argued that the law, by it's very design, is the one place where the slippery slope argument doesn't apply and this is precedent we should be very, very careful about setting.

I don't like it when my moral and practical centers don't align.
We've tried to address this type of abusive behaviour under new legislation - coercive controlling behaviour: https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidanc...y-relationship
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Old 29th October 2019, 05:12 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Oh dear, that's awful.

It was, but it was also a very l-o-n-g time ago, and I got over it. And I was never the least bit suicidal. Other grownups can do a lot to counteract some of the effects that a narcissistic upbringing has on children.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 29th October 2019, 05:16 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
That's extremely interesting. It would suggest that this poor young man had suffered similar treatment from an adult in his close family when he was younger, which both predisposed him to hook up with an abusive girlfriend and prevented him from breaking off with her when anyone with a normal degree of self-esteem would have walked away long before it got to this.
Not saying "echoism" doesn't exist but I think you need to watch out for thinking that becoming a victim to coercive behaviour doesn't happen to "normal" people. The evidence is overwhelming that "normal" people can be the victim of coercive behaviour, one does not need to have had something happen in their childhood or have a health issue of their own to become ensnared by an abuser. We are all potential victims.
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Old 29th October 2019, 05:19 AM   #33
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It's certainly a lot of texts, but I'd guess that a vast majority of them were probably quick responses and such. My brother and I will text each other during a 3 hour american football game, and I'd assume that there's probably 200-300 texts in that time span. It seems like a lot until you realize many of them are just things like "stupid play," "dumb penalty," and "wow what a catch!" We aren't emoji users, but you could easily throw in eyerolls and such and your "number" of texts can get significant quickly without actually taking much of your time.
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Old 29th October 2019, 05:39 AM   #34
angrysoba
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Originally Posted by DuvalHMFIC View Post
It's certainly a lot of texts, but I'd guess that a vast majority of them were probably quick responses and such. My brother and I will text each other during a 3 hour american football game, and I'd assume that there's probably 200-300 texts in that time span. It seems like a lot until you realize many of them are just things like "stupid play," "dumb penalty," and "wow what a catch!" We aren't emoji users, but you could easily throw in eyerolls and such and your "number" of texts can get significant quickly without actually taking much of your time.
This
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Old 29th October 2019, 05:42 AM   #35
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Besides, it only takes like two seconds to type "kill yourself loser"
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Old 29th October 2019, 05:46 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by DuvalHMFIC View Post
Besides, it only takes like two seconds to type "kill yourself loser"
Yeah, with a smartphone it knows that Kill is followed by Yourself and followed by Loser. And if you cut and paste event quicker.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 29th October 2019, 05:48 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Yeah, with a smartphone it knows that Kill is followed by Yourself and followed by Loser. And if you cut and paste event quicker.
There's got to be an emoji for that.
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Old 29th October 2019, 06:13 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Not saying "echoism" doesn't exist but I think you need to watch out for thinking that becoming a victim to coercive behaviour doesn't happen to "normal" people. The evidence is overwhelming that "normal" people can be the victim of coercive behaviour, one does not need to have had something happen in their childhood or have a health issue of their own to become ensnared by an abuser. We are all potential victims.
I'd guess* that anyone can become a victim to some extent, but a vast majority of people who were previously emotionally and psychologically well will get out before something this extreme happens.

*not sure data exists either way on this stuff, so unless someone has evidence, we're going to be left guessing
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Old 29th October 2019, 06:22 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
There's got to be an emoji for that.
I just found out there are plenty of GIFs.

Thanks to Dad!
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 29th October 2019, 07:39 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by DuvalHMFIC View Post
It's certainly a lot of texts, but I'd guess that a vast majority of them were probably quick responses and such. My brother and I will text each other during a 3 hour american football game, and I'd assume that there's probably 200-300 texts in that time span. It seems like a lot until you realize many of them are just things like "stupid play," "dumb penalty," and "wow what a catch!" We aren't emoji users, but you could easily throw in eyerolls and such and your "number" of texts can get significant quickly without actually taking much of your time.
I don't think the number of texts sent are that significant. It is the content of some that are significant.

Granted, the man who died must bare some responsibility, I suppose, but he is the one now dead.
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