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Old 29th October 2019, 08:24 AM   #41
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Old 29th October 2019, 11:48 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
Horrible. Disgusting. I hope she won't see the light of day ever again. Prison.
Typical rush to judgement. You should be ashamed.
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Old 29th October 2019, 11:55 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Typical rush to judgement. You should be ashamed.
Not even for a moment.

If it turns out she is guilty, it is indeed just as horrible and disgusting as wasapi says. Most statements of this nature can be effectively considered to have an implicit "if this is true" at the beginning of them.
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Old 29th October 2019, 12:32 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Not even for a moment.

If it turns out she is guilty, it is indeed just as horrible and disgusting as wasapi says. Most statements of this nature can be effectively considered to have an implicit "if this is true" at the beginning of them.
Are you in favor of life imprisonment for this woman, "if this is true?"
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Old 29th October 2019, 03:05 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Not saying "echoism" doesn't exist but I think you need to watch out for thinking that becoming a victim to coercive behaviour doesn't happen to "normal" people. The evidence is overwhelming that "normal" people can be the victim of coercive behaviour, one does not need to have had something happen in their childhood or have a health issue of their own to become ensnared by an abuser. We are all potential victims.

I guess it depends on how you define "normal" in this context.

I have a close friend who was in an abusive relationship for quite a few years, and had no history of abuse at home. He did, however, have a history of depression, which is the sort of thing that abusers like to latch onto, since it makes their victims easier to manipulate. He also has a minor physical disability which limits his mobility.

In his case, the abuse progressed slowly, his wife graduated from merely being dominating, to controlling, to psychological and emotional abuse, to outright physical abuse. Along the way she managed to separate him from all of his friends, keep him unemployed and therefore financially dependent, and finally moved him clear across the country, well away from any possible support system or resources.

Fortunately, he was eventually able to get help.

AAMOF, I've got two male friends who were in abusive relationships, and both of them have chronic mental health issues (depression in one, bipolar in the other).

While abuse can definitely happen to "normal" people; it's a fairly well-established phenomenon that people, men or women, who experienced abuse as a child are more likely to end up in abusive relationships as an adult. Abusers will always target those they feel can be more easily manipulated, and who are least likely to fight back. Former abuse victims and those with mental or developmental disorders are high on their list of preferred victims.
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Old 29th October 2019, 03:21 PM   #46
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That's a good reply.
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Old 29th October 2019, 09:11 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by DuvalHMFIC View Post
Besides, it only takes like two seconds to type "kill yourself loser"
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Yeah, with a smartphone it knows that Kill is followed by Yourself and followed by Loser. And if you cut and paste event quicker.
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
There's got to be an emoji for that.
In Japan (I've noticed this with my own kids and heard it discussed in the media) it has become a popular insult among the younger generations to just tell someone to die using the imperative form 死ね. (A bit like telling someone to "drop dead" although I don't hear that in English much anymore). So you can say it with just one word of two characters in Japanese. And it's so common here, like maybe "(F-word)-off!" in English. I wonder if there's something similar in Korean.
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Old 30th October 2019, 01:20 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Just heard on the news the girl is currently in South Korea, so it is relying on her to hand herself in or applying for arrest and deportation.
Yes, because the United States has been setting such a sterling example itself in that department recently.

Oh... wait...
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Old 30th October 2019, 01:25 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
They might have just communicated that way on Line or something with loads of smileys, gifs and pictures. It’s not that weird given how a lot of younger people text.
Or just use multiple texts for what is effectively a single response, where us normal oldies would have put them in one.

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Old 30th October 2019, 01:52 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
We've tried to address this type of abusive behaviour under new legislation - coercive controlling behaviour: https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidanc...y-relationship
And, of course, we all know the kind of "posed by models" images the press prefer to use to illustrate the issue. These are the first five that Google throws up for "coercive controlling behaviour":











This despite the fact that - in the UK at least - the male/female split of victims is reckoned to be 50/50.

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Old 30th October 2019, 01:58 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
This despite the fact that - in the UK at least - the male/female split of victims is reckoned to be 50/50.
Not what your link claims.
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Old 30th October 2019, 04:45 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by sphenisc View Post
Not what your link claims.
Which bit of "50|50 - Exactly the same percentage of male and female respondents had experienced being in a coercive/controlling relationship" don't you understand?"
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Old 30th October 2019, 04:56 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Which bit of "50|50 - Exactly the same percentage of male and female respondents had experienced being in a coercive/controlling relationship" don't you understand?"
The bit where it says "victim".
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Old 30th October 2019, 05:00 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by sphenisc View Post
The bit where it says "victim".
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Old 30th October 2019, 05:02 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by sphenisc View Post
The bit where it says "victim".
I think you're going to have to be more specific. What do you think the "50|50" text is saying?
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Old 30th October 2019, 05:13 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
I think you're going to have to be more specific. What do you think the "50|50" text is saying?
I think it says that exactly the same percentage of male and female respondents had experienced being in a coercive/controlling relationship.

What it doesn't say is whether those people experienced the coercive relationship as victim or perpetrator.
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Old 30th October 2019, 05:24 AM   #57
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I think there are some things we might reasonably infer, though.
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Old 30th October 2019, 05:42 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I think there are some things we might reasonably infer, though.
Agreed.

Although, many, or possibly even most people who are coercive and controlling in relationships probably see themselves as the victims in the relationship, too.
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Old 30th October 2019, 05:50 AM   #59
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I will withhold judgement pending further information, mostly.

The text thing, would seem to indicate it was a pretty obsessive relationship and telling someone to kill themselves makes you a pretty awful person so....
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Old 30th October 2019, 05:53 AM   #60
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I must admit that even though women can be absolutely hellish controlling bitches, there's no doubt about that, I'd have thought the majority (maybe not an overwhelming majority) of victims would have been women. Given the way the power balance usually lies between the sexes.

But who knows. It's not going to be an easy thing to gather reliable data on.
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Old 30th October 2019, 06:17 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by sphenisc View Post
I think it says that exactly the same percentage of male and female respondents had experienced being in a coercive/controlling relationship.

What it doesn't say is whether those people experienced the coercive relationship as victim or perpetrator.
Oh, yeah. I'm sure most of the boys in that study meant that they were the abuser.

Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I must admit that even though women can be absolutely hellish controlling bitches, there's no doubt about that, I'd have thought the majority (maybe not an overwhelming majority) of victims would have been women. Given the way the power balance usually lies between the sexes.
Strength is not the only power you can have on someone.
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Old 30th October 2019, 06:24 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Not saying "echoism" doesn't exist but I think you need to watch out for thinking that becoming a victim to coercive behaviour doesn't happen to "normal" people. The evidence is overwhelming that "normal" people can be the victim of coercive behaviour, one does not need to have had something happen in their childhood or have a health issue of their own to become ensnared by an abuser. We are all potential victims.

The experts always stress that we are all potential victims of physical as well as emotional abuse, but some of us are more likely potential victims than others.
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Old 30th October 2019, 06:33 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Not even for a moment.

If it turns out she is guilty, it is indeed just as horrible and disgusting as wasapi says. Most statements of this nature can be effectively considered to have an implicit "if this is true" at the beginning of them.

Alternatively, people could refrain from being wannabe judges handing out imaginary punishment.
I never understood the appeal of this behaviour.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 30th October 2019, 06:36 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
I guess it depends on how you define "normal" in this context.

...snip... ssues (depression in one, bipolar in the other).

While abuse can definitely happen to "normal" people; it's a fairly well-established phenomenon that people, men or women, who experienced abuse as a child are more likely to end up in abusive relationships as an adult. Abusers will always target those they feel can be more easily manipulated, and who are least likely to fight back. Former abuse victims and those with mental or developmental disorders are high on their list of preferred victims.
Nothing I disagree with but I'm very wary of "folk wisdom" and sadly I've heard it too many times people being "surprised" when someone who was "so normal" becomes a victim to abuse.

Of course there are other health issues that can make someone more vulnerable to coercive control abuse, for example someone housebound, but you can't just focus on those groups, it really helps no one to have this type of abuse defined in terms of both victim and abuser having "health issues" and that is why it happens.
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Old 30th October 2019, 06:38 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Alternatively, people could refrain from being wannabe judges handing out imaginary punishment.
I never understood the appeal of this behaviour.
It's a discussion. Online, by a bunch of people totally unrelated and uninvolved in the case. What else could we possibly talk about? "I read an event occurred, but as we have limited information I cannot state an opinion on it"? "And me as well ditto also" would be the response. End of thread.
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Old 30th October 2019, 06:45 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
It's a discussion. Online, by a bunch of people totally unrelated and uninvolved in the case. What else could we possibly talk about? "I read an event occurred, but as we have limited information I cannot state an opinion on it"? "And me as well ditto also" would be the response. End of thread.
It's a discussion on a sceptics' forum. If you can't attach a few caveats to your opinion you're in the wrong place.




Probably.
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Old 30th October 2019, 06:46 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I must admit that even though women can be absolutely hellish controlling bitches, there's no doubt about that, I'd have thought the majority (maybe not an overwhelming majority) of victims would have been women. Given the way the power balance usually lies between the sexes.

But who knows. It's not going to be an easy thing to gather reliable data on.

Notice that text messages are what makes this possible nowadays. They leave a trace. Some experts have hypothesized that homicidal psychopaths are typically men because women tend to use more subtle methods, like poison.

There are other differences in aggression:

Quote:
Male psychopaths tend to display their aggression behaviorally. They engage in physical assault, abuse animals, or commit violent crimes. This helps explain why the percentage of psychopaths in male prisons is double that of female prisons. Since male psychopaths are more likely to engage in violent behavior, they are more likely to get caught and locked up.

Female psychopaths are better equipped to fly under the radar. This is because they tend to display their aggression relationally. They spread gossip about you at work. They gaslight you to the point that you doubt your own sanity. They leech off you and manipulate you into doing their bidding (think Jennifer Jason Leigh’s character in the movie Single White Female).
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 30th October 2019, 06:51 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by sphenisc View Post
It's a discussion on a sceptics' forum. If you can't attach a few caveats to your opinion you're in the wrong place.




Probably.
And as a skeptics board it should be accepted as an unspoken given that opinions are opinions. As my history professor explained to the class after the first essays were handed in: "you don't need to write 'in my opinion' in your papers. I've been teaching for forty years, and history has been studied for somewhat longer. I am not in danger of mistaking any of you for Almighty God with new, definitive facts that will radically transform previous understanding of history."
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Old 30th October 2019, 06:52 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by sphenisc View Post
I think it says that exactly the same percentage of male and female respondents had experienced being in a coercive/controlling relationship.

What it doesn't say is whether those people experienced the coercive relationship as victim or perpetrator.
Oh dear. Sadly for your desperate attempt at deflection, section 1 of the full report by the polling organisation makes it clear that the answers are from the perspective of victims:

"Coercive and Controlling behaviour is rife and it’s not gender specific

More than a third of the UK population (34%) have admitted to being in a coercive control relationship. However, over half of respondents (53%) reported having experienced some kind of bullying or controlling behaviour at the hands of their partner.

The same percentage of male respondents had experienced being in a coercive /controlling relationship."

Also from the conclusions in section 5:

"Whilst male domestic violence support groups are campaigning tirelessly to show that this is not a gender specific crime, we would urge the Government to support a UK-wide media campaign to address the current misperception that men are more often than not the perpetrator."
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Old 30th October 2019, 06:53 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Strength is not the only power you can have on someone.

Which is why I didn't say strength.
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Old 30th October 2019, 06:53 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
It's a discussion. Online, by a bunch of people totally unrelated and uninvolved in the case. What else could we possibly talk about? "I read an event occurred, but as we have limited information I cannot state an opinion on it"? "And me as well ditto also" would be the response. End of thread.

As you know, I participate in online discussions all the time. I don't think that I have ever handed out imaginary punishment, and even in this thread I don't see most of the posters doing so, so there appears to be other things to talk about than that. Why not go to Trials and Errors if you feel one feels the need to fantasize about punishing people?
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 30th October 2019, 06:57 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
As you know, I participate in online discussions all the time. I don't think that I have ever handed out imaginary punishment, and even in this thread I don't see most of the posters doing so, so there appears to be other things to talk about than that. Why not go to Trials and Errors if you feel the need to fantasize about punishing people?
"As I know"? Sweetie, you overestimate your fame. And confused me with someone else if you think I "handed out imaginary punishment". Scroll up. Feel free to quote the post where you feel I did so.

And when I fantasize about punishing people it's a sex thing, thanks very much. Which I detail in much more interesting places than here!
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Old 30th October 2019, 06:58 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Oh, yeah. I'm sure most of the boys in that study meant that they were the abuser.

It happens. Some boys are able to recognize and regeret that they have abused somebody. And some boys are gay, and so are some girls, so unless the study was exclusively about heterosexual relationships, that it something that should be taken into account, too.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 30th October 2019, 07:04 AM   #74
dann
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
"As I know"? Sweetie, you overestimate your fame. And confused me with someone else if you think I "handed out imaginary punishment". Scroll up. Feel free to quote the post where you feel I did so.

There's no reason to think that I refer to any kind of fame. I refer to this forum only. There's also no reason to call me "Sweetie." And I was using the generic you. I have no idea if you yourself are one of those who hand out imaginary punishment, so in hindsight, I should probably have used one instead of you.

Quote:
And when I fantasize about punishing people it's a sex thing, thanks very much. Which I detail in much more interesting places than here!

No concern of mine.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 30th October 2019, 07:06 AM   #75
Darat
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
And as a skeptics board it should be accepted as an unspoken given that opinions are opinions. As my history professor explained to the class after the first essays were handed in: "you don't need to write 'in my opinion' in your papers. I've been teaching for forty years, and history has been studied for somewhat longer. I am not in danger of mistaking any of you for Almighty God with new, definitive facts that will radically transform previous understanding of history."
Did you then smite him?
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Old 30th October 2019, 07:09 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Did you then smite him?
Well, I didn't dazzle him with any great new insights an 18 year old might have into Julius Caesar. Apparently he's been studied before?
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Old 30th October 2019, 07:18 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Did you then smite him?
It's Tragic Monkey. He smut him.
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Old 30th October 2019, 07:28 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
And, of course, we all know the kind of "posed by models" images the press prefer to use to illustrate the issue. These are the first five that Google throws up for "coercive controlling behaviour"

Some book titles give the same impression:
Men Who Hate Women and the Women Who Love Them: When Loving Hurts And You Don't Know Why (Amazon)
Women Who Love Too Much: When You Keep Wishing and Hoping He'll Change (Amazon)

However, even books like these usually present cases where the abusers are women, maybe the titles don't mention that because women are more likely to buy books about relationship abuse.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 30th October 2019 at 07:32 AM.
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Old 30th October 2019, 07:34 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Oh dear. Sadly for your desperate attempt at deflection, section 1 of the full report by the polling organisation makes it clear that the answers are from the perspective of victims:

"Coercive and Controlling behaviour is rife and it’s not gender specific

More than a third of the UK population (34%) have admitted to being in a coercive control relationship. However, over half of respondents (53%) reported having experienced some kind of bullying or controlling behaviour at the hands of their partner.

The same percentage of male respondents had experienced being in a coercive /controlling relationship."

Also from the conclusions in section 5:

"Whilst male domestic violence support groups are campaigning tirelessly to show that this is not a gender specific crime, we would urge the Government to support a UK-wide media campaign to address the current misperception that men are more often than not the perpetrator."
Not sure the vituperation is necessary, but thanks for posting a link to the report.
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Old 30th October 2019, 08:01 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
And as a skeptics board it should be accepted as an unspoken given that opinions are opinions. As my history professor explained to the class after the first essays were handed in: "you don't need to write 'in my opinion' in your papers. I've been teaching for forty years, and history has been studied for somewhat longer. I am not in danger of mistaking any of you for Almighty God with new, definitive facts that will radically transform previous understanding of history."
The man's clearly an imbecile who doesn't understand the importance of upping a word count.
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