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Tags Cyprus incidents , Cyprus issues , rape cases

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Old 10th January 2020, 05:55 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
Isn't the issue here that she was found guilty of lying about it (not my position to be clear) therefore, technically, not a victim of any sexual offence and consequently not afforded such protection?
Under English law, the right to anonymity is forfeit if the 'victim' is subsequently charged with perjury or conspiracy to pervert the course of justice in relation to the incident in question. Or at least that was the case when I was working for a local paper back in the mid-nineties. It might have changed since.
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Old 10th January 2020, 04:45 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
Under English law, the right to anonymity is forfeit if the 'victim' is subsequently charged with perjury or conspiracy to pervert the course of justice in relation to the incident in question. Or at least that was the case when I was working for a local paper back in the mid-nineties. It might have changed since.
Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
Isn't the issue here that she was found guilty of lying about it (not my position to be clear) therefore, technically, not a victim of any sexual offence and consequently not afforded such protection?

Just putting that out there.
But any anonymity would remain since the current conviction is subject to appeal. As I understand it it does not matter whether the crime was committed abroad identifying the victim of a sex crime (unless they agree to identification) is an offence in England, so this is only an issue for UK posters. Also the recording of the sex act and putting it up on the internet without the participants consent (which earlier posters linked to) would probably also be a sex crime and no one is saying that did not happen. So on that basis she is probably entitled to anonymity under English law.

I don't really care. The police are unlikely to come knocking on anyone's door unless there is some concerted drive to do so. But I thought it was good neighbourly to flag it up.

Last edited by Planigale; 10th January 2020 at 04:49 PM.
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Old 12th January 2020, 06:50 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
But any anonymity would remain since the current conviction is subject to appeal. As I understand it it does not matter whether the crime was committed abroad identifying the victim of a sex crime (unless they agree to identification) is an offence in England, so this is only an issue for UK posters. Also the recording of the sex act and putting it up on the internet without the participants consent (which earlier posters linked to) would probably also be a sex crime and no one is saying that did not happen. So on that basis she is probably entitled to anonymity under English law.

I don't really care. The police are unlikely to come knocking on anyone's door unless there is some concerted drive to do so. But I thought it was good neighbourly to flag it up.
First of all, I am not based in the UK. In any case, privacy laws in Finland are much stronger and privacy is king. Victims of road accidents or murders are never named, neither are perpetrators of crimes, except in cases of extreme notoriety, such as the various high school shooters/stabbers. There are a huge number of the Finnish mafia in jail (known as the United Brotherhood). None have been named. If there is a coachload of people killed in the UK or the USA the victims all get their photos splashed across the papers and are named. Not in Finland. I believe Germany and Sweden have similarly strict privacy laws.

Secondly, we don't know she is a victim of rape as the seven to twelve men who were taken into custody for up to ten days were released without charge and the woman charged with public nuisance for allegedly lying about it. One of these men was able to prove he was elsewhere and released immediately. Another with whom she had consensual sex and then claimed held her down whilst up to twelve men raped her has come out publicly to deny he held her down. So, on the one hand we have a woman who was taken for medical help by her friends who found her in distress and which referred her to the police. Personally, I believe she suffered a terrible ordeal. However, because of irreconcilable gaps in her story and the video found on the phones of some of those arrested did not tally with non-consensual sex. For example, when one man entered the room, she was heard asking him to leave. I assume the judge thought a woman being raped would have shouted out for help. The youths claimed that she only became upset when she realised she was being filmed. This is upsetting but it wouldn't necessarily amount to rape although at that point it likely became non-consensual. I suspect the truth of the matter is that it falls somewhere in between. It was probably harsh of the police to charge her with lying. OTOH if it is true, as claimed by someone else, that she had claimed rape before in the past and had won compensation, it does raise the question of whether this was a possible scam to earn victim compensation.

As to the matter of identity, the woman's mother did appear to waive her anonymity on TV, shouting out her thanks to all the supporters who had arrived from Israel by the planeload and the local Cypriots. By identifying the mother, it is surely identifying the daughter? However, I notice her face was later pixellated when the BBC realised this. The woman concerned also chose to avoid the press on her return to England. However, call me cynical but I can't help thinking she will soon emerge with an 'exclusive' newspaper interview or book telling of 'My Holiday from Hell in Cyprus'.

Finally, the justice system in Cyprus is based on British law, not Roman, whereby an appeal is virtually guaranteed if you can find a point of law under the proscribed section which allows one. Under UK law in general, there is of course a right to appeal any court decision, including a verdict. However, once a trial has been been decided, it is rare for an appeal to be allowed. This is because although the principle of a right to appeal is enshrined in the UK justice system, problem is, at the first stage the application to appeal goes through a 'sift' (where a judge or judges study the appeal application) and it is here that nine out of ten applications for an appeal are rejected without a further hearing. At the High Court stage permission has to be sought from the judges to take it further to the Supreme Court (Brexit was a good example of this). It will only be granted if it fulfils the criteria of 'in the 'public interest' insofar it is felt that a precedent is needed. Under latin law two stages of appeal are virtually guaranteed (Appeal, Supreme) as long as you can dig out a point of law, whereas in the UK (and therefore presumably, Cyprus) this is purely by the grace of the judge who receives your appeal.

Now, the lawyer in this case says he will appeal and mentions the Supreme Court and the ECHR. He believes this will be possible by showing that her retraction of her rape claim was unfairly coerced by the police and because she did not have a lawyer present (he claims). As there is no need to have a lawyer present when reporting a crime, at the point she retracted her claims, then a lawyer should have been provided before she signed her statement if it then put her in a position of potentially committing a criminal offence in so doing. OTOH merely retracting a claim and issuing an apology doesn't necessarily lead to a charge of 'public nuisance'. If the Cyprus police can show it followed the correct procedures as per Cypriot law, then that wouldn't qualify as a point of law (i.e., a deviation therefrom). AIUI she was not charged with a crime until some ten days after her signed retraction and apology, so obviously did not take place simultaneously with the withdrawal of her claim. She might win a case at the ECHR in respect of not having a lawyer present (if that is the case) when she was charged. However, the ECHR can only make Cyprus pay compensation (average pay-out is less than £5K), and can take years. In addition, the ECHR has no jurisdiction to overturn the conviction. It would only go to the Supreme Court if it is felt the laws surrounding rape allegations need to be look at again with this case as the blueprint, and this might have a fair chance, especially with the international outcry. However, remember this is about a conviction for public nuisance, not about rape, as that was never tried (so cannot be appealed).

In other words, your claim the person involved is protected by law with anonymity in the UK is misconceived.

Last edited by Vixen; 12th January 2020 at 07:06 PM.
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Old 13th January 2020, 02:33 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
This is upsetting but it wouldn't necessarily amount to rape although at that point it likely became non-consensual.
At the point it became non-consensual, it surely became rape?
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Old 13th January 2020, 05:06 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
At the point it became non-consensual, it surely became rape?
And how will the prosecution prove that if her story was completely different when she first reported it?
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Old 13th January 2020, 08:14 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
And how will the prosecution prove that if her story was completely different when she first reported it?
Non sequiturs are us.

Your statement was self-contradictory; whether it can be proved in court is a different question, but if she withdrew consent at any point, any further penetration of her by other parties constituted rape, at least by UK law.
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Old 13th January 2020, 09:27 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Non sequiturs are us.

Your statement was self-contradictory; whether it can be proved in court is a different question, but if she withdrew consent at any point, any further penetration of her by other parties constituted rape, at least by UK law.
Only if so found by a court of law.
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Old 13th January 2020, 09:36 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Only if so found by a court of law.
But this is about the definition of rape, not a specific instance of it. Do you accept that continued penetration after consent has been withdrawn constitutes rape?
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Old 13th January 2020, 10:24 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
At the point it became non-consensual, it surely became rape?
I think it is more correct to say it would be at the point where it was both non-consensual and no longer reasonable to believe it was consensual.
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Old 13th January 2020, 05:28 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
But this is about the definition of rape, not a specific instance of it. Do you accept that continued penetration after consent has been withdrawn constitutes rape?
It's probably not that easy to expect a testosterone-fuelled young guy to suddenly stop after having been eagerly encouraged.
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Old 13th January 2020, 09:41 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It's probably not that easy to expect a testosterone-fuelled young guy to suddenly stop after having been eagerly encouraged.
And?
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Old 13th January 2020, 10:41 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It's probably not that easy to expect a testosterone-fuelled young guy to suddenly stop after having been eagerly encouraged.
I expect them to stop whether it is “easy” for them or not. I demand that they stop. Under moral and legal penalty. And I am a guy with a sexual drive and also who was once even younger.

No one is allowed to do anything to another’s body when the second person objects. Prior consent can be terminated at any time. And it is a lie that somehow men “can’t” stop, as if we are biologically unable to do so. Sure it is a major emotional 180 turnaround but it’s not emotionally, mentally, or physically impossible. It is the moral thing to do.

Do we defend people who in the heat of a physical assault on a person due to hatred press on and on until it is murder? Are they allowed to be caught up in the emotion of the attack and forgiven for continuing it?
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Old 14th January 2020, 02:54 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It's probably not that easy to expect a testosterone-fuelled young guy to suddenly stop after having been eagerly encouraged.
Nothing to do with the definition of rape. Try again.
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Old 14th January 2020, 03:19 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It's probably not that easy to expect a testosterone-fuelled young guy to suddenly stop after having been eagerly encouraged.
Astounding....
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Old 14th January 2020, 04:02 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
I expect them to stop whether it is “easy” for them or not. I demand that they stop. Under moral and legal penalty. And I am a guy with a sexual drive and also who was once even younger.

No one is allowed to do anything to another’s body when the second person objects. Prior consent can be terminated at any time. And it is a lie that somehow men “can’t” stop, as if we are biologically unable to do so. Sure it is a major emotional 180 turnaround but it’s not emotionally, mentally, or physically impossible. It is the moral thing to do.

Do we defend people who in the heat of a physical assault on a person due to hatred press on and on until it is murder? Are they allowed to be caught up in the emotion of the attack and forgiven for continuing it?
But did she ask him to stop having sex or was she only concerned about the filming? She told one guy to leave the room so was obviously able to assert herself. She wasn't heard on the video objecting to the sex or asking for help (according to the court report of the judge's comments having viewed the video on the youths' phones, which were confiscated immediately by the police).
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Old 15th January 2020, 12:29 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It's probably not that easy to expect a testosterone-fuelled young guy to suddenly stop after having been eagerly encouraged.
There ought to be a law against that sort of behaviour.
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Old 15th January 2020, 02:14 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Only if so found by a court of law.
Determining if a crime has been committed or not, is not the same as getting a conviction in a court. Plenty of crimes are evidenced to have happened, but no one is found guilty of the crime.

Quote:
It's probably not that easy to expect a testosterone-fuelled young guy to suddenly stop after having been eagerly encouraged.
Easy or not, if someone says stop, no more during sex, that is it. If the other continues, it is rape.

This case does look like it is one where consent was withdrawn. Cypriot law makes it clear consent is required and it has to be freely obtained and so where consent is withdrawn, it becomes rape.
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Old 15th January 2020, 01:34 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by The Common Potato View Post
There ought to be a law against that sort of behaviour.
It has always seemed a grey area that consent can be withdrawn during the act. The act may be consummated just prior or simultaneously with consent withdrawal, which would make for a fairly arcane legal debate in court.
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Old 16th January 2020, 09:47 AM   #99
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OK, arguing as 'devil's advocate': consider an attractive young woman aged 18 who is footloose and fancy-free and enjoys sex with handsome young guys, especially on holiday when there are no repercussions (assuming contraception and good hygiene) such as the guy turning up on your doorstop wanting 'a relationship' or turning out to be married or having a girlfriend at home; IOW a no-commitments fling.

So, she meets nice guy and discovers half his friends fancy her, too. Flattered, and in sun-sea-and-sangria mood, and invites them for a fun party. Noting it is only guys invited, the select few invite various of their mates along. British girl known to be free and easy. Not like the locals or at home with strict Mum and Dad.

After getting into, shall we say, 'party mood' with a couple of them, Brit girl realises there is a potentially degrading problem. It is one thing to have guys bragging about having sex with you, as young guys do, but quite another to have the whole thing filmed on smartphone and distributed via WhatsApp. So guy number eleventy-one is told to stop just as he is in the middle of - ahem - 'taking off'. So Brit Girl now become 'Prick Tease'.

Question: is it all right to 'prick tease'?
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Old 16th January 2020, 10:49 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
It has always seemed a grey area that consent can be withdrawn during the act. The act may be consummated just prior or simultaneously with consent withdrawal, which would make for a fairly arcane legal debate in court.
Obviously the law varies, but in Scotland, consent can be ended at any time and if sex continues, it is rape;

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/asp/2009/9/section/1

1Rape

(1)If a person (“A”), with A's penis—

(a)without another person (“B”) consenting, and

(b)without any reasonable belief that B consents,

penetrates to any extent, either intending to do so or reckless as to whether there is penetration, the vagina, anus or mouth of B then A commits an offence, to be known as the offence of rape.

(2)For the purposes of this section, penetration is a continuing act from entry until withdrawal of the penis; but this subsection is subject to subsection (3).

(3)In a case where penetration is initially consented to but at some point of time the consent is withdrawn, subsection (2) is to be construed as if the reference in it to a continuing act from entry were a reference to a continuing act from that point of time.
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Old 16th January 2020, 11:09 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
OK, arguing as 'devil's advocate': consider an attractive young woman aged 18 who is footloose and fancy-free and enjoys sex with handsome young guys, especially on holiday when there are no repercussions (assuming contraception and good hygiene) such as the guy turning up on your doorstop wanting 'a relationship' or turning out to be married or having a girlfriend at home; IOW a no-commitments fling.

So, she meets nice guy and discovers half his friends fancy her, too. Flattered, and in sun-sea-and-sangria mood, and invites them for a fun party. Noting it is only guys invited, the select few invite various of their mates along. British girl known to be free and easy. Not like the locals or at home with strict Mum and Dad.

After getting into, shall we say, 'party mood' with a couple of them, Brit girl realises there is a potentially degrading problem. It is one thing to have guys bragging about having sex with you, as young guys do, but quite another to have the whole thing filmed on smartphone and distributed via WhatsApp. So guy number eleventy-one is told to stop just as he is in the middle of - ahem - 'taking off'. So Brit Girl now become 'Prick Tease'.

Question: is it all right to 'prick tease'?
Her body, her choice. If the guy continues, it's rape. How is this even a question?
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Old 17th January 2020, 02:16 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
OK, arguing as 'devil's advocate': consider an attractive young woman aged 18 who is footloose and fancy-free and enjoys sex with handsome young guys, especially on holiday when there are no repercussions (assuming contraception and good hygiene) such as the guy turning up on your doorstop wanting 'a relationship' or turning out to be married or having a girlfriend at home; IOW a no-commitments fling.

So, she meets nice guy and discovers half his friends fancy her, too. Flattered, and in sun-sea-and-sangria mood, and invites them for a fun party. Noting it is only guys invited, the select few invite various of their mates along. British girl known to be free and easy. Not like the locals or at home with strict Mum and Dad.

After getting into, shall we say, 'party mood' with a couple of them, Brit girl realises there is a potentially degrading problem. It is one thing to have guys bragging about having sex with you, as young guys do, but quite another to have the whole thing filmed on smartphone and distributed via WhatsApp. So guy number eleventy-one is told to stop just as he is in the middle of - ahem - 'taking off'. So Brit Girl now become 'Prick Tease'.

Question: is it all right to 'prick tease'?
At the point of telling "eleventy-one" to stop, she went from whatever pejorative you might insist on calling her to a non consenting participant.

I'm struggling to see you in the role of devils advocate having read your prior posts in this thread.
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Old 17th January 2020, 05:40 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
At the point of telling "eleventy-one" to stop, she went from whatever pejorative you might insist on calling her to a non consenting participant.

I'm struggling to see you in the role of devils advocate having read your prior posts in this thread.
OK. So how would you, in the role of detective or prosecutor, go about establishing the facts and bringing the perps to justice, bearing in mind you have to show probable cause (=reasonable prospect of success) to bring it to court?
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Old 17th January 2020, 07:34 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
OK. So how would you, in the role of detective or prosecutor, go about establishing the facts and bringing the perps to justice, bearing in mind you have to show probable cause (=reasonable prospect of success) to bring it to court?
Irrelevant to the point.
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Old 17th January 2020, 07:41 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Irrelevant to the point.
It is relevant because the boyfriend has come out publicly to say their relationship was consensual. She claims he held her down whilst up to twelve men raped her. Whilst I fully believe she suffered a terrible rape ordeal, how are the courts going to begin to determine guilt if a couple of the guys she said were there were not and three of them say it was consensual? In her retraction she claims she lied about being raped and only submitted a report because she didn't like being filmed and that she was sorry. OK so she is claiming she was forced to retract her rape claim and only did so because the police threatened to prosecute her friends as well. Where does a prosecutor even begin to present a case?
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Old 17th January 2020, 07:44 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It is relevant because the boyfriend has come out publicly to say their relationship was consensual. She claims he held her down whilst up to twelve men raped her. Whilst I fully believe she suffered a terrible rape ordeal, how are the courts going to begin to determine guilt if a couple of the guys she said were there were not and three of them say it was consensual? In her retraction she claims she lied about being raped and only submitted a report because she didn't like being filmed and that she was sorry. OK so she is claiming she was forced to retract her rape claim and only did so because the police threatened to prosecute her friends as well. Where does a prosecutor even begin to present a case?
You're not doing a great job of convincing us of the highlighted point.
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Old 18th January 2020, 11:18 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
You're not doing a great job of convincing us of the highlighted point.
In cases such as these where you have single-issue campaign lobbyists (for example: Justice Abroad) driving the news narrative and the slogan by some ultra-feminists that 'all men are rapists', it helps to adopt a 180° viewpoint to test one's own and other's possible assumptions and prejudices.

IMV it doesn't help to just slap these twelve then 15-18-year-olds with a life jail sentence just because some believe if a woman reports rape then it must be so.

ISTM this case has been rather complicated by various factors.

Or do you prefer people to spout meaningless slogans, especially if it is based on the fact 'it's a Brit involved', with little mention in the Brit press about what they are not telling us.
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Old 18th January 2020, 04:30 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
In cases such as these where you have single-issue campaign lobbyists (for example: Justice Abroad) driving the news narrative and the slogan by some ultra-feminists that 'all men are rapists', it helps to adopt a 180° viewpoint to test one's own and other's possible assumptions and prejudices.

IMV it doesn't help to just slap these twelve then 15-18-year-olds with a life jail sentence just because some believe if a woman reports rape then it must be so.

ISTM this case has been rather complicated by various factors.

Or do you prefer people to spout meaningless slogans, especially if it is based on the fact 'it's a Brit involved', with little mention in the Brit press about what they are not telling us.


Hmmm.... so firstly, you think that investigating injustice (and campaigning against convictions if you believe an injustice may have been committed) is a "single issue" campaign? I would suggest you need to look up the definition of "single-issue" in the context of campaigning......

Secondly, you cannot know how many cases a group like Justice Abroad examines each year, and what proportion it therefore rejects as seeing no potential injustice. Furthermore, you have no idea what the benchmarks are of an organisation like that, in terms of deciding whether or not any given case is deserving of their support. You seem to be operating under the impression that Justice Abroad will scream "injustice" about just about any case of a British national being convicted of a crime outside of the industrialised nations of the world.

Thirdly, and in respect of this case in particular, I cannot possibly reconcile this quoted post of yours with your claim in a previous post that "(you) fully believe she suffered a terrible rape ordeal". Please expand and explain (if that's possible).

And lastly, you appear to be singularly unfamiliar with the salient points in this case (which, lest we forget, is about the criminal conviction of a woman for "lying" about having been raped - and whether this specific conviction is safe or may be unsafe). And the salient points are not so much to do with the accusations which the women made (which, remember, have never got as far as charges let alone a court trial), but rather are almost entirely to do with the alleged circumstances in which the woman "retracted" her accusations (including, crucially, her lack of access to counsel, lack of any recordings of the interview in which she allegedly recanted her accusations, and certain apparent suspicions around the statements which the police claim were hers alone).

As the old hackneyed saying goes: "apart from that......"
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Old 18th January 2020, 04:52 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It is relevant because the boyfriend has come out publicly to say their relationship was consensual. She claims he held her down whilst up to twelve men raped her. Whilst I fully believe she suffered a terrible rape ordeal, how are the courts going to begin to determine guilt if a couple of the guys she said were there were not and three of them say it was consensual? In her retraction she claims she lied about being raped and only submitted a report because she didn't like being filmed and that she was sorry. OK so she is claiming she was forced to retract her rape claim and only did so because the police threatened to prosecute her friends as well. Where does a prosecutor even begin to present a case?
Then why are you also going out of your way to slut-shame her, blame her for being a "prick tease", and argue the case for her assailants?
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Old 18th January 2020, 06:07 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It is relevant because the boyfriend has come out publicly to say their relationship was consensual. She claims he held her down whilst up to twelve men raped her. Whilst I fully believe she suffered a terrible rape ordeal, how are the courts going to begin to determine guilt if a couple of the guys she said were there were not and three of them say it was consensual? In her retraction she claims she lied about being raped and only submitted a report because she didn't like being filmed and that she was sorry. OK so she is claiming she was forced to retract her rape claim and only did so because the police threatened to prosecute her friends as well. Where does a prosecutor even begin to present a case?
Actually she says she was raped by about three men, but around twelve were present. She is unclear about how many or which of the twelve men present raped her. Sadly she did not keep an accurate count of the men raping her, nor did she try to remember in detail what was happening to her. Surprisingly people may be a little vague about traumatic events, some people try to dissociate themselves from what is being done to their body.
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Old 19th January 2020, 03:34 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Actually she says she was raped by about three men, but around twelve were present. She is unclear about how many or which of the twelve men present raped her. Sadly she did not keep an accurate count of the men raping her, nor did she try to remember in detail what was happening to her. Surprisingly people may be a little vague about traumatic events, some people try to dissociate themselves from what is being done to their body.
No, she doesn't say that. The police say there was only DNA from three (or four, if we count her boyfriend?). From the video as described by the presiding judge in her case the men were coming into the room one by one. She is heard telling one of them to leave the room.

One of the youths was able to prove he was not present. Seven in all were kept in custody for ten days and thirty witnesses in all had their statements taken, including one who claimed the woman had falsely reported rape in the past to get compensation.

Who knows the truth? It could be a case of faulty memory seeing twelve guys in the room. The youths who have come out publicly claim she was consenting. But then they would say that.
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Old 19th January 2020, 03:41 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Then why are you also going out of your way to slut-shame her, blame her for being a "prick tease", and argue the case for her assailants?
If she did indeed fabricate her rape claim - and it is possible - and the marathon sex session was consensual (note the word, 'if') but then she cried rape afterwards then how else would you expect the youths accused to describe her character? To refresh your memory, they were seen celebrating at Ben Gurion airport describing the woman as a 'whore Brit'. I was simply testing the issue of are they right or wrong?

Having said that it seems to me there very likely was a distressing rape which for some reason she was unable to describe accurately, perhaps because of post-traumatic stress disorder.
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Old 19th January 2020, 03:51 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Hmmm.... so firstly, you think that investigating injustice (and campaigning against convictions if you believe an injustice may have been committed) is a "single issue" campaign? I would suggest you need to look up the definition of "single-issue" in the context of campaigning......

Secondly, you cannot know how many cases a group like Justice Abroad examines each year, and what proportion it therefore rejects as seeing no potential injustice. Furthermore, you have no idea what the benchmarks are of an organisation like that, in terms of deciding whether or not any given case is deserving of their support. You seem to be operating under the impression that Justice Abroad will scream "injustice" about just about any case of a British national being convicted of a crime outside of the industrialised nations of the world.

Thirdly, and in respect of this case in particular, I cannot possibly reconcile this quoted post of yours with your claim in a previous post that "(you) fully believe she suffered a terrible rape ordeal". Please expand and explain (if that's possible).

And lastly, you appear to be singularly unfamiliar with the salient points in this case (which, lest we forget, is about the criminal conviction of a woman for "lying" about having been raped - and whether this specific conviction is safe or may be unsafe). And the salient points are not so much to do with the accusations which the women made (which, remember, have never got as far as charges let alone a court trial), but rather are almost entirely to do with the alleged circumstances in which the woman "retracted" her accusations (including, crucially, her lack of access to counsel, lack of any recordings of the interview in which she allegedly recanted her accusations, and certain apparent suspicions around the statements which the police claim were hers alone).

As the old hackneyed saying goes: "apart from that......"
The campaigners, including her mother, say she was 'interrogated' 'for eight hours' at the end of which she signed a written statement retracting her rape claim and apologising. Firstly, when reporting a crime there is no compulsion to have a lawyer present. Secondly, writing things down is a 'recording'. Of course her claims were recorded. How else could police bring a case without a detailed description of what took place.

Thirdly, as for the 'eight-hour interrogation', I am willing to bet it was not actually eight-hours non-stop but likely spread over several days. Alas, saying 'four two-hour interviews' spread over two weeks (twelve perps to describe, remember) doesn't sound nearly so emotionally heart-rending to the unwary reader than 'eight-hour interrogation' with the subtext 'brutish sexist bullying Cypriot police'. There was even a conspiracy theory thrown in that the Cypriots didn't want to upset the Israelis, with whom they were in the middle of a trade deal and another that one of the boys had an influential father who was somehow involved in this deal.

Finally, the woman was not charged until TEN DAYS after she made her retraction.

In face of all this emotional blackmail, it is important to try to get the full story.

There is a moral for both parties: be a bit more careful next time.

Last edited by Vixen; 19th January 2020 at 03:55 AM.
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Old 19th January 2020, 05:36 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Thirdly, as for the 'eight-hour interrogation', I am willing to bet it was not actually eight-hours non-stop but likely spread over several days.
Evidence?
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Old 19th January 2020, 06:20 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
Evidence?
In my opinion, I am sceptical she was subjected to a non-stop 'eight-hour interrogation' culminating in being forced to sign a retraction and apology.

Riiight, so she was marched off to a police station at, say, eight in the morning and 'interrogated' non-stop until four in the afternoon, whereupon she was made to sign her retraction.

As completely separate to describing the events to the police when reporting a crime.

Yet, she wasn't actually charged with public nuisance until ten days later. It just doesn't add up.
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Old 19th January 2020, 06:35 AM   #116
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OK, so none then. As I thought.
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Old 19th January 2020, 08:34 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The campaigners, including her mother, say she was 'interrogated' 'for eight hours' at the end of which she signed a written statement retracting her rape claim and apologising. Firstly, when reporting a crime there is no compulsion to have a lawyer present. Secondly, writing things down is a 'recording'. Of course her claims were recorded. How else could police bring a case without a detailed description of what took place.

Thirdly, as for the 'eight-hour interrogation', I am willing to bet it was not actually eight-hours non-stop but likely spread over several days. Alas, saying 'four two-hour interviews' spread over two weeks (twelve perps to describe, remember) doesn't sound nearly so emotionally heart-rending to the unwary reader than 'eight-hour interrogation' with the subtext 'brutish sexist bullying Cypriot police'. There was even a conspiracy theory thrown in that the Cypriots didn't want to upset the Israelis, with whom they were in the middle of a trade deal and another that one of the boys had an influential father who was somehow involved in this deal.

Finally, the woman was not charged until TEN DAYS after she made her retraction.

In face of all this emotional blackmail, it is important to try to get the full story.

There is a moral for both parties: be a bit more careful next time.


Kudos for not answering any of my points/questions in your response.
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Old 19th January 2020, 08:42 AM   #118
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Oh and by the way, Vixen (and directly pertaining to the explicit point I made in my earlier post), the salient point related to the safety (or otherwise) of this woman's conviction is very specifically to do with the police interrogation in which she - allegedly - admitted falsely accusing these men. It has nothing whatsoever to do with "reporting a crime". You continually make exactly the same mistake in respect of a certain other criminal slander case with which we are both conversant....

So firstly, it's vital the the precise circumstances of this interview/interrogation are known. It's hardly a vanishing possibility that the police for some reason suspected the woman of having lied, and it's also hardly a vanishing possibility that the police may have exerted some form of pressure upon her to "admit" to the lie.

But secondly - and actually far more importantly in law - this woman should have been cautioned AS SOON AS she made whatever form of confession she may have made. The interview should have been immediately terminated, and the woman should have been informed of her right to silence and her right to a lawyer. And no written statement should have been obtained or signed until/unless the woman had been able to consult with a competent lawyer who spoke good English.

It appears that you still don't understand why all of the above is so vital. Surprise, surprise......
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Old 19th January 2020, 08:44 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
OK, so none then. As I thought.


As Yogi Berra once said: it's deja vu all over again.....
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Old 22nd January 2020, 04:41 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Oh and by the way, Vixen (and directly pertaining to the explicit point I made in my earlier post), the salient point related to the safety (or otherwise) of this woman's conviction is very specifically to do with the police interrogation in which she - allegedly - admitted falsely accusing these men. It has nothing whatsoever to do with "reporting a crime". You continually make exactly the same mistake in respect of a certain other criminal slander case with which we are both conversant....

So firstly, it's vital the the precise circumstances of this interview/interrogation are known. It's hardly a vanishing possibility that the police for some reason suspected the woman of having lied, and it's also hardly a vanishing possibility that the police may have exerted some form of pressure upon her to "admit" to the lie.

But secondly - and actually far more importantly in law - this woman should have been cautioned AS SOON AS she made whatever form of confession she may have made. The interview should have been immediately terminated, and the woman should have been informed of her right to silence and her right to a lawyer. And no written statement should have been obtained or signed until/unless the woman had been able to consult with a competent lawyer who spoke good English.

It appears that you still don't understand why all of the above is so vital. Surprise, surprise......
You are wrong. You do not need to have a lawyer present to retract a statement.
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