ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 12th January 2020, 09:52 AM   #321
Giordano
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 16,355
Originally Posted by shemp View Post
It's a good thing the U.S. doesn't have that kind of leadership!
Yes, a good thing indeed!
Giordano is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 09:59 AM   #322
trustbutverify
Philosopher
 
trustbutverify's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 7,819
Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Huh?

But in any case I am not claiming that Iran did not commit a horrible action that resulted in the loss of hundreds of lives. I am only providing facts in response to suggestions in this thread that somehow only Iran, or only an evil country, could ever commit such an act.
Who suggested that? And when the USG commits its own abominations, do you routinely lecture outraged critics on the atrocities committed by her enemies...for balance?
__________________
"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." -- Mahatma Gandhi

Wollen owns the stage
trustbutverify is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 10:08 AM   #323
Giordano
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 16,355
Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
Who suggested that? And when the USG commits its own abominations, do you routinely lecture outraged critics on the atrocities committed by her enemies...for balance?
If they ask if another country ever did the same, I answer to the best of my knowledge. Isn't that why someone asks a question?
Giordano is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 10:28 AM   #324
trustbutverify
Philosopher
 
trustbutverify's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 7,819
Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
If they ask if another country ever did the same, I answer to the best of my knowledge. Isn't that why someone asks a question?
Asked in response to to a whataboutism comment comparing the two incidents.

If the geopolitical actors were reversed in that comparison, you'd never tolerate it. And you'd be right to.
__________________
"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." -- Mahatma Gandhi

Wollen owns the stage
trustbutverify is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 10:48 AM   #325
Giordano
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 16,355
Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
Asked in response to to a whataboutism comment comparing the two incidents.

If the geopolitical actors were reversed in that comparison, you'd never tolerate it. And you'd be right to.
The question was itself a "whatabout?" And it was apparently to contradict the "whataboutism" of the prior post (i.e.to deny the comparison).

But this little discussion we are having doesn't advance any useful discussions here or provide any insights. I suggest we just stop here.
Giordano is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 11:02 AM   #326
Elagabalus
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 5,364
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
If they succeed, it will not be Trump who is the biggest winner.

And I consider Trump a lot less important than 80 million Iranians.


I'm fascinated with the apparent anger displayed by crowds over the downing of the jetliner. Accidents happen. Why is it a huge deal?


Is it that they hate their government anyway, and this is just one more reason?

Is it that they don't want war, but thinks their government is pushing them close to war, with civilian casualties being one more example.

Is it that they are angered by the incredibly blatant lies told after the incident. Iran said that it was mechanical failure, when in fact they knew, with complete certainty, that it was not mechanical failure. That kind of blatant, unapologetic, lying rarely makes people happy. (Some exceptions apply.)

Maybe it is that the attack by the Vincennes thirty years ago has been a big thing with the Iranians for a long time, and part of that, I'm guessing, has been insisting that the US could not possibly have shot down an airliner by mistake. They had to have known it was a passenger plane. Perhaps the rdinary Iranians believed that story, but the implication would be that this incident, too, could not have been a mistake.

Maybe someone understands the Iranian "man in the street", but I don't. It would be nice, though, if somehow this led to the demise of a radical and tyrannical theocracy, but I'm not optimistic.
I think Giordano's post #312 answers your question.
Elagabalus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 11:38 AM   #327
sackett
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Detroit
Posts: 5,877
Immediately after the Vincennes shootdown, we heard reports of Iranians who were sure that it was an accident. Then we stopped hearing the reports, and the news was full of spittle-flying shrieks of hatred of the great satan and so on.

The US handed over money to pay reparations to the families. I wonder how much they eventually got?
__________________
Fill the seats of justice with good men; not so absolute in goodness as to forget what human frailty is. -- Thomas Jefferson

What region of the earth is not filled with our calamities? -- Virgil

Last edited by sackett; 12th January 2020 at 11:43 AM.
sackett is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 11:58 AM   #328
trustbutverify
Philosopher
 
trustbutverify's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 7,819
Well worth reading:

Quote:
Ukrainian officials criticized Iran’s conduct, suggesting that the Iranians would not have admitted responsibility if investigators from Ukraine had not found evidence of a missile strike in the wreckage of the crash, which killed all 176 people aboard.
Quote:
The Ukrainians further accused Iran of recklessly permitting commercial flights during a security emergency and of violating universally accepted procedures for a post-crash investigation. Bulldozers had heaped debris from the plane into piles on the ground.

“Everything was done absolutely inappropriately,” Oleksiy Danilov, the Ukrainian security official overseeing the crash inquiry, said in an interview with The New York Times, referring to how Iranian authorities had handled the site of the crash.
Quote:
He said Ukrainian experts on the ground in Iran had gathered such evidence since their arrival on Thursday despite apparent Iranian efforts to complicate the investigation, including by sweeping debris into piles rather than carefully documenting it.

“When a catastrophe happens, everything is supposed to stay in its place,” he said. “Every element is described, every element is photographed, every element is fixed in terms of its location and coordinates. To our great regret, this was not done.”

Quote:
Some protest images posted on Iranian social media even showed torn photos of General Suleimani.

“Death to liars!” and “Death to the dictator!” shouted Iranians gathered in squares in the capital, Tehran, videos shared on social media showed. “You have no shame!” shouted several young men, and the crowd joined in a chorus.
Quote:
Mehdi Karroubi, a leader of the opposition Green Movement who has been under house arrest since 2011, issued a statement telling Mr. Khamenei that he no longer had the moral qualifications to be supreme leader.

And the editor in chief of the official Tasnim News Agency, Kian Abdollahi, said that lying to the public was as catastrophic as the plane tragedy and that all officials who lied must be prosecuted.
__________________
"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." -- Mahatma Gandhi

Wollen owns the stage
trustbutverify is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 01:15 PM   #329
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 44,515
Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
I read your entire post before I replied. The answer to my question was "no, the USG did not deny shooting down the airliner despite knowing otherwise. The IR did. That part of the issue is straightforward.

The warship initially denied they had shot down IR655 and tried to blame the nearby HMS York despite that ship not having weapons capable of hitting a plane at that altitude. However they admitted it about 15 minutes later when it became obvious what had happened. The two US ships then buggered off and left the British ship to deal with the casualties. A former colleague of mine, at the age of 20, spent two weeks fishing body parts out of the Persian Gulf. He said they were matching legs by the shoes they were wearing.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 01:16 PM   #330
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 44,515
Originally Posted by sackett View Post
Immediately after the Vincennes shootdown, we heard reports of Iranians who were sure that it was an accident. Then we stopped hearing the reports, and the news was full of spittle-flying shrieks of hatred of the great satan and so on.

The US handed over money to pay reparations to the families. I wonder how much they eventually got?

I did read that somewhere, but I can't remember the amount. It wasn't huge. It was very much less than the amounts received by the relatives of the passengers on PA103.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 01:43 PM   #331
Bob001
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 9,736
Originally Posted by sackett View Post
Immediately after the Vincennes shootdown, we heard reports of Iranians who were sure that it was an accident. Then we stopped hearing the reports, and the news was full of spittle-flying shrieks of hatred of the great satan and so on.

The US handed over money to pay reparations to the families. I wonder how much they eventually got?

The U.S. paid up eventually, after a lot of lies and long delays.
Quote:
Finally, in 1996, President Bill Clinton’s administration expressed “deep regret” and paid the Iranian government $131.8 million in compensation, of which $61.8 million would go to the victims’ families. In exchange, Tehran agreed to drop its case against the United States in the International Court of Justice.
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/...ger-plane.html
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 01:53 PM   #332
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 79,045
Originally Posted by shemp View Post
It's a good thing the U.S. doesn't have that kind of leadership!
I know right? I can't believe the complaint people in this thread are having that Iran took a couple days to finally have everyone on the same page admitting to the accident. Our military and government have never been shining examples of truth, without even adding Trump in.

Anyone need a list?

Not whataboutism, rather this is about relative level of outrage. Taking a couple days to get the right story out shouldn't generate more than a minor degree of outrage.

The Iranians own outrage at their own government denying responsibility for shooting down a plane leaving the Iran airport is a different matter.
__________________
TRUMP CHEATS What color hat should I order with that logo? Red on black maybe? Or black on pink?

Space Force.
Because feeding poor people is socialism.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 12th January 2020 at 02:02 PM.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 02:32 PM   #333
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 45,749
Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Added: My own take on Iran is that they are a nasty dictatorship run primarily by a evil theocracy. I am more amazed that they eventually owned up to the truth than by the fact it took them several days to do so.
They haven't owned up to the truth. They've owned up to having shot down the plane, but their story of how and why it happened are still a lie.

https://www.asiatimes.com/2020/01/op...on-downed-jet/
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 03:26 PM   #334
Dr.Sid
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Olomouc, Czech Republic
Posts: 2,369
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
They haven't owned up to the truth. They've owned up to having shot down the plane, but their story of how and why it happened are still a lie.

https://www.asiatimes.com/2020/01/op...on-downed-jet/
Some information in that article is fishy. 2 minutes to launch the missile ? Can't believe that. That's way too much. 2 minutes from cold, sure. But then it can be on standby. Windows of opportunity for short range AA systems count in seconds. I believe the missiles were ready to be launched on button press. Otherwise they would be pointless.
I'm also skeptical about the ability of this military system to receive standard transponder. Because in standard war, for which these were designed, they are irrelevant. If targets could be save from AA missiles just by having civilian transponder, the cruise missiles would simply use civilian transponders. We also know about other cases where transponder didn't save commercial airplane against rusian military AA system.
And IFF doesn't work like that. IFF requires friendly aircraft to respond in specific way, which enemy cannot replicated. The codes are changed every day, if not faster. Civilian aircrafts are typically not equipped with such systems. And if you know no friendly aircraft is in the air, there is no need for IFF altogether, as that only slows things down.
I think there was some simple protocol for not shooting civies, like timetable and phone line. And big portion of incompetence on all levels.

Last edited by Dr.Sid; 12th January 2020 at 03:33 PM.
Dr.Sid is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 03:35 PM   #335
trustbutverify
Philosopher
 
trustbutverify's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 7,819
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
The warship initially denied they had shot down IR655 and tried to blame the nearby HMS York despite that ship not having weapons capable of hitting a plane at that altitude. However they admitted it about 15 minutes later when it became obvious what had happened. The two US ships then buggered off and left the British ship to deal with the casualties. A former colleague of mine, at the age of 20, spent two weeks fishing body parts out of the Persian Gulf. He said they were matching legs by the shoes they were wearing.
Thanks for that. Did they deny firing, or hitting any targets?
__________________
"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." -- Mahatma Gandhi

Wollen owns the stage
trustbutverify is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 03:49 PM   #336
Planigale
Illuminator
 
Planigale's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 3,569
Originally Posted by sackett View Post
Immediately after the Vincennes shootdown, we heard reports of Iranians who were sure that it was an accident. Then we stopped hearing the reports, and the news was full of spittle-flying shrieks of hatred of the great satan and so on.

The US handed over money to pay reparations to the families. I wonder how much they eventually got?
About $150 million for 290 deaths.
Planigale is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 03:55 PM   #337
Planigale
Illuminator
 
Planigale's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 3,569
Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
Thanks for that. Did they deny firing, or hitting any targets?
I think the RN would feel opening fire on a civilian airliner was not the done thing.
Since they never launched an AA missile they were pretty sure they didn't hit it, and they probably saw the USN missile on their radar.
Planigale is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 03:55 PM   #338
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 44,515
Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
Thanks for that. Did they deny firing, or hitting any targets?

They insisted that they'd hit an F1 fighter bomber that was diving towards them, the destroyed passenger plane was nothing to do with them, must have been the York. But that was only at the very beginning, the immediate reaction of utter incomprehending denial that they'd committed an atrocity. It was soon clear that there was no FI fighter bomber and there never had been an F1 fighter bomber.

I was ribbiting to my colleague Calum in the post mortem room, as we usually chatted while we were working (he was the post mortem room attendant), while I was in my Lockerbie-obsessed phase. I mentioned IR655 as the probable motive for the bombing and he said "we got the blame for that!" At the time I didn't know he'd joined the navy straight out of school and been on the York in the Persian Gulf in 1988, but he soon told me all about it. He said the denial got as far as the media because his mother heard on the radio that the York had shot down a passenger plane before the misapprehension was corrected. (Small world. My next-door-but-one neighbour's grandmother was killed on the ground at Lockerbie, another colleague in the same department with Calum was driving very close to Lockerbie at the time and saw the plane come down, and a few years ago the total stranger I found myself chatting to over mince pies and mulled wine at the church Christmas bun-fight turned out to have been the first TV cameraman on the scene and to have knowledge of reams of film in the STV archives that could never be shown because it's too horrific.)

There was a documentary crew filming on board the Vincennes when it happened so the whole ghastly sequence of events was recorded. I most vividly remember two contrasting shots, one of the artillery crew throwing their hands up in jubilation and "we got him!" and then the same people leaning on their consoles trying to process the enormity of what had happened.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

Last edited by Rolfe; 12th January 2020 at 04:00 PM.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 03:57 PM   #339
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 45,749
Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
I'm also skeptical about the ability of this military system to receive standard transponder. Because in standard war, for which these were designed, they are irrelevant. If targets could be save from AA missiles just by having civilian transponder, the cruise missiles would simply use civilian transponders.
That doesn't make sense. Military systems should be able to recognize civilian transponders because every military wants to avoid shooting their own civilian planes. A military system probably won't prevent you from shooting at a civilian for exactly the reasons you describe, but it should still inform you that that's what you're doing.

And I suspect a military craft using a civilian transponder code would probably be a war crime, like soldiers dressing up in civilian clothes, so there's an incentive not to do it.

Quote:
And IFF doesn't work like that. IFF requires friendly aircraft to respond in specific way, which enemy cannot replicated. The codes are changed every day, if not faster. Civilian aircrafts are typically not equipped with such systems.
Military IFF works by encrypting a challenge message and a response message. Civilian transponders work by replying with an unencrypted descriptor that doesn't depend on the challenge message. These are different "modes" of operation, but either mode should be detectable by the radar system.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 04:01 PM   #340
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 44,515
Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
I think the RN would feel opening fire on a civilian airliner was not the done thing.
Since they never launched an AA missile they were pretty sure they didn't hit it, and they probably saw the USN missile on their radar.

I think he was talking about the Vincennes, who initially believed they'd hit an Iranian military jet. The York never fired on anything and didn't have artillery capable of bringing down a plane at that altitude anyway.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 04:04 PM   #341
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 44,515
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That doesn't make sense. Military systems should be able to recognize civilian transponders because every military wants to avoid shooting their own civilian planes.

A lot has been written about what the Vincennes did and as I said the whole thing was filmed by a documentary crew anyway. There was an inquiry. They were calling the supposed hostile aircraft on military frequencies. I'm not an expert but I have read about it. It should be easy to google.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 04:13 PM   #342
Dr.Sid
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Olomouc, Czech Republic
Posts: 2,369
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Military IFF works by encrypting a challenge message and a response message. Civilian transponders work by replying with an unencrypted descriptor that doesn't depend on the challenge message. These are different "modes" of operation, but either mode should be detectable by the radar system.
I think the issue will be those systems often use completely different frequencies. Civilian transponders only reply to civilian radars.
In normal war this is not really an issue. You simply don't have civilian airplanes flying around.
Dr.Sid is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 04:15 PM   #343
trustbutverify
Philosopher
 
trustbutverify's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 7,819
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I know right? I can't believe the complaint people in this thread are having that Iran took a couple days to finally have everyone on the same page admitting to the accident. Our military and government have never been shining examples of truth, without even adding Trump in.
It was about three days of a coordinated cover-up, from top to bottom. It did not take three days to "finally have every one on the same page". It took three days for international investigators to get them dead to rights, at which time the regime decided it had no other choice but to come clean. Had their plan to frustrate the investigation been successful, they would have never told the truth.

Quote:
Not whataboutism, rather this is about relative level of outrage.
It's exactly whataboutism, and the level of outrage concerning 655 was epic at the time. If the actors involved in this current incident were reversed, your reactions would be reversed. It's as simple as that.

Quote:
Taking a couple days to get the right story out shouldn't generate more than a minor degree of outrage.
As I said, it didn't take a couple days to get the story out, it took three days for their story to crumble. Their attempts to keep the victims families from ever finding out the truth is a despicable outrage, as the Iranian protesters are now making clear. Again, if the roles were reversed, you and your fellow travelers would be stomping the ground so hard, it would throw the Earth out of orbit.
__________________
"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." -- Mahatma Gandhi

Wollen owns the stage
trustbutverify is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 04:20 PM   #344
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 45,749
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
A lot has been written about what the Vincennes did and as I said the whole thing was filmed by a documentary crew anyway. There was an inquiry. They were calling the supposed hostile aircraft on military frequencies. I'm not an expert but I have read about it. It should be easy to google.
According to the Wikipedia article, they called on both military and civilian frequencies. That account suggests that the pilots may have assumed that the calls were to a different plane, since they identified the plane according to its ground speed, which differed significantly from its airspeed.

The most interesting bit of new information for me on reading that article was about the Aegis interface flaw (the first of the listed "Potential factors"). Tragic.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 04:22 PM   #345
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 45,749
Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
I think the issue will be those systems often use completely different frequencies. Civilian transponders only reply to civilian radars.
The airport should have radar going all the time, so the plane should have been squawking its codes regularly.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 04:37 PM   #346
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 44,515
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
According to the Wikipedia article, they called on both military and civilian frequencies. That account suggests that the pilots may have assumed that the calls were to a different plane, since they identified the plane according to its ground speed, which differed significantly from its airspeed.

The most interesting bit of new information for me on reading that article was about the Aegis interface flaw (the first of the listed "Potential factors"). Tragic.

Thanks. It's some time since I read the details about this, or watched a documentary. And of course articles and documentaries can contain inaccuracies. I do remember a lot being made of the repeated, unanswered, calls on the military frequency. I believe the nutshell explanation in the end was "scenario fulfillment", which I can actually understand. The belligerent captain had drilled the crew in how to respond to an attacking plane and when they convinced themselves they were being attacked they went into a sort of auto-pilot and followed the drill despite a number of clear clues that the identification of the plane was wrong and that it was climbing rather than diving.

I do note "They (the ICAO) also said that "American warships in the gulf had no equipment that allowed them to monitor civilian air traffic control radio frequencies, and thus no means of hearing the many radio transmissions between Iran Air Flight 655 and air traffic controllers that would have identified the aircraft to the Vincennes's crew." "
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

Last edited by Rolfe; 12th January 2020 at 04:40 PM.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 04:42 PM   #347
LondonJohn
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 14,717
Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
Thanks for that. Did they deny firing, or hitting any targets?


No they didn't.

But at the same time, the original question you posed to Giordano was ambiguous and somewhat loaded. You asked:

"Did the USG ever deny shooting down the airliner, in spite of the fact they knew they did?"

If you interpret "the airliner" literally, then yes, the US Navy did indeed deny for many hours that they had shot down "the airliner" which had been reported missing by Iran.... and it's also arguable that for a reasonable period of time of that denial (perhaps even within minutes of the event), they did indeed know that the target they'd hit was not a military aircraft sizeing up to attack the Vincennes, but was rather a commercial airliner flying on a regular commercial corridor at a regular height and flight pattern (and lest we forget, even for months following the admission that they'd actually shot down the airliner, the US Navy was still trying - incorrectly and misleadingly - to claim that the aircraft had been flying in a manner which suggested aggressive intentions towards Navy ships......)

I see you've now apparently modified and clarified your position - correctly - by changing "airliner" to "target", but without explaining the change.

And FWIW I'd also agree that Iran's attempted subterfuge was definitely much worse than the US Navy's continued insistence that the airliner was flying an aggressive route/pattern. And it's several orders worse than the US Navy's original incorrect claim to have shot down an Iranian military aircraft (IIRC, incidentally, there were issues around the transponder squawk code, making it seem on radar as if it were non-commercial...).
LondonJohn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 04:42 PM   #348
trustbutverify
Philosopher
 
trustbutverify's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 7,819
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
They insisted that they'd hit an F1 fighter bomber that was diving towards them, the destroyed passenger plane was nothing to do with them, must have been the York. But that was only at the very beginning, the immediate reaction of utter incomprehending denial that they'd committed an atrocity. It was soon clear that there was no FI fighter bomber and there never had been an F1 fighter bomber.
Yes, I was aware of this. I thought you were saying the crew intentionally attempted to lie about launching... or that they knew they had downed 655, but continued to claim it was an F1.
__________________
"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." -- Mahatma Gandhi

Wollen owns the stage
trustbutverify is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 04:43 PM   #349
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 44,515
No, I don't think that was the case. Calum never implied that, just that there was an initial knee-jerk reaction that of course they hadn't done it and it must have been the York. Then the realisation set in.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 04:44 PM   #350
trustbutverify
Philosopher
 
trustbutverify's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 7,819
Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
I think the RN would feel opening fire on a civilian airliner was not the done thing.
Since they never launched an AA missile they were pretty sure they didn't hit it, and they probably saw the USN missile on their radar.
Nothing whatsoever to do with my comment(s).
__________________
"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." -- Mahatma Gandhi

Wollen owns the stage
trustbutverify is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 04:53 PM   #351
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 79,045
Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
It was about three days of a coordinated cover-up, from top to bottom. It did not take three days to "finally have every one on the same page". It took three days for international investigators to get them dead to rights, at which time the regime decided it had no other choice but to come clean. Had their plan to frustrate the investigation been successful, they would have never told the truth.
Oooo, three days instead of two, and you can add a couple more for the sin of lying about the cause.

One: name one country and incident that was immediately upfront in public announcements about such tragic accidents caused by their military.

Two: how long does it take for the details of something like this to get reported accurately in the news? Just look at this thread. How long past the facts being reported did it take people to let go of the 'could have been an accident' position?


Quote:
It's exactly whataboutism, and the level of outrage concerning 655 was epic at the time. If the actors involved in this current incident were reversed, your reactions would be reversed. It's as simple as that.
You can use this excuse to ignore the issue: outrage over nothing.



Quote:
As I said, it didn't take a couple days to get the story out, it took three days for their story to crumble. Their attempts to keep the victims families from ever finding out the truth is a despicable outrage, as the Iranian protesters are now making clear. Again, if the roles were reversed, you and your fellow travelers would be stomping the ground so hard, it would throw the Earth out of orbit.
:
__________________
TRUMP CHEATS What color hat should I order with that logo? Red on black maybe? Or black on pink?

Space Force.
Because feeding poor people is socialism.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 04:58 PM   #352
trustbutverify
Philosopher
 
trustbutverify's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 7,819
Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
No they didn't.

But at the same time, the original question you posed to Giordano was ambiguous and somewhat loaded. You asked:

"Did the USG ever deny shooting down the airliner, in spite of the fact they knew they did?"

If you interpret "the airliner" literally, then yes, the US Navy did indeed deny for many hours that they had shot down "the airliner" which had been reported missing by Iran.... and it's also arguable that for a reasonable period of time of that denial (perhaps even within minutes of the event), they did indeed know that the target they'd hit was not a military aircraft sizeing up to attack the Vincennes, but was rather a commercial airliner flying on a regular commercial corridor at a regular height and flight pattern (and lest we forget, even for months following the admission that they'd actually shot down the airliner, the US Navy was still trying - incorrectly and misleadingly - to claim that the aircraft had been flying in a manner which suggested aggressive intentions towards Navy ships......)

I see you've now apparently modified and clarified your position - correctly - by changing "airliner" to "target", but without explaining the change.

And FWIW I'd also agree that Iran's attempted subterfuge was definitely much worse than the US Navy's continued insistence that the airliner was flying an aggressive route/pattern. And it's several orders worse than the US Navy's original incorrect claim to have shot down an Iranian military aircraft (IIRC, incidentally, there were issues around the transponder squawk code, making it seem on radar as if it were non-commercial...).
I should have used the term target originally, for accuracy, because that's actually what I meant. Not meant to be misleading.
__________________
"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." -- Mahatma Gandhi

Wollen owns the stage
trustbutverify is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 04:58 PM   #353
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 45,749
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
One: name one country and incident that was immediately upfront in public announcements about such tragic accidents caused by their military.

Two: how long does it take for the details of something like this to get reported accurately in the news?
Iran claimed it was a mechanical failure almost immediately. That isn't a "fog of war" error. That was a deliberate lie. Even if it had been a mechanical failure, there's no possible way Iran could have known that so quickly.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 05:03 PM   #354
LondonJohn
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 14,717
Another interesting comparator case is KAL007, in which a Korean Air 747 was shot down by a Soviet aircraft (meaning that the Soviets obv instantly knew for certain that it had shot down a 747 with Korean Air livery). The Soviet Union initially denied all knowledge, and they claimed that there was evidence that the flight had been on a "false flag" intelligence mission. The matter was somewhat complicated by the fact that the aircraft had mistakely flown way off its intended route and into restricted Soviet air space.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean...nes_Flight_007
LondonJohn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 05:05 PM   #355
LondonJohn
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 14,717
Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
I should have used the term target originally, for accuracy, because that's actually what I meant. Not meant to be misleading.


Oh no, I wasn't suggesting that you'd in any way attempted deliberately to mislead or anything. I just think that the question you originally asked, posed in that format with those words, was (unintentionally) capable of an interpretation that was different to the one you'd intended.
LondonJohn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 05:09 PM   #356
LondonJohn
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 14,717
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Iran claimed it was a mechanical failure almost immediately. That isn't a "fog of war" error. That was a deliberate lie. Even if it had been a mechanical failure, there's no possible way Iran could have known that so quickly.

Absolutely.

Another factor to consider is this: in these sorts of incidents - which clearly have the capability of causing very large repercussions - the country at fault almost always looks for any possible opportunity to stall before accepting any responsibility. And that's for two main reasons: firstly, the country responsible wants to try to ensure that it's as ready as possible for any potential recriminations (whether diplomatic/political/economic or military...); and secondly, the country responsible wants as much time as possible to optimise the presentational aspect of admitting responsibility.
LondonJohn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 05:10 PM   #357
trustbutverify
Philosopher
 
trustbutverify's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 7,819
Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Oh no, I wasn't suggesting that you'd in any way attempted deliberately to mislead or anything. I just think that the question you originally asked, posed in that format with those words, was (unintentionally) capable of an interpretation that was different to the one you'd intended.
No problem, I understood you. You're 100% correct- it was sloppy.
__________________
"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." -- Mahatma Gandhi

Wollen owns the stage
trustbutverify is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 06:12 PM   #358
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 79,045
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Iran claimed it was a mechanical failure almost immediately. That isn't a "fog of war" error. That was a deliberate lie. Even if it had been a mechanical failure, there's no possible way Iran could have known that so quickly.
OMG! I'm so outraged.

Meanwhile, Trump and company continue to lie, telling mixed stories about said imminent threat, changing their stories, settling on Trump "believed" and claiming they've always been on the same page when there is video evidence they were not. And they cannot produce one lick of evidence.

How many days has it been since the assassination?
__________________
TRUMP CHEATS What color hat should I order with that logo? Red on black maybe? Or black on pink?

Space Force.
Because feeding poor people is socialism.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 12th January 2020 at 06:16 PM.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 06:51 PM   #359
Steve
Philosopher
 
Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 6,713
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Iran claimed it was a mechanical failure almost immediately. That isn't a "fog of war" error. That was a deliberate lie. Even if it had been a mechanical failure, there's no possible way Iran could have known that so quickly.
I see you find deliberate lies from governments upsetting. Is that all deliberate government lies, or just the ones that come from governments you disagree with?
__________________
Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"
Steve is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 08:06 PM   #360
Giordano
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 16,355
Okay, he killed his mother and ate her heart, but what really bothers me is he lied about it for 3 days!
Giordano is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:02 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.