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Old 23rd January 2020, 10:32 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
It is pretty hard to image a situation where placing a tarp over a body is possible but extracting the body is not. I definitely do not want to do more research to figure out the exact situation though. The posted quotes and links make it seem like its just paper work, which hopefully is not the whole story.
They aren't placing it over the body. They're adhering to kind of a parameter around the area where the body is to obstruct the view.
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Old 23rd January 2020, 10:35 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Joe's link said, "Wimberly's body is difficult to see with the naked eye from the street, but with a zoom lens, his legs are visible."
Look close, you can see him! Where? Look closely for blue jeans and boots... that's him.
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Old 23rd January 2020, 10:36 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You're making an argument from incredulity.

I'd need to know more about how they arrived at their decision, before I judge them for it.
Ideally, you're right, but barring something really odd, it would seem to be inexplicable to just leave a body sit for months near a public street. Whatever obstacles are present, they needed to have a sit down and resolve them months ago. Negligence is the most likely explanation, given the evidence. At this point, anyway. So provisional judgement.
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Old 23rd January 2020, 10:41 AM   #44
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There is so much that is explained in post #14. Everybody needs to read that article.
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Old 23rd January 2020, 10:41 AM   #45
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$$$. They are probably arguing over who will pay for the demolition, any of several insurance companies or the owner.

It's not the city's job to demo anything to recover bodies.
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Old 23rd January 2020, 10:43 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Ideally, you're right, but barring something really odd, it would seem to be inexplicable to just leave a body sit for months near a public street. Whatever obstacles are present, they needed to have a sit down and resolve them months ago. Negligence is the most likely explanation, given the evidence. At this point, anyway. So provisional judgement.
Apparently it's not near the street at all. It's within a structure that isn't safe to enter or work in. What they're covering up are the sight lines into the structure.

As long as we're admitting arguments from incredulity, leaving the bodies for months seems so bizarre to me that I strongly suspect there are other factors that I don't know about.
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Old 23rd January 2020, 10:57 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Apparently it's not near the street at all. It's within a structure that isn't safe to enter or work in. What they're covering up are the sight lines into the structure.

As long as we're admitting arguments from incredulity, leaving the bodies for months seems so bizarre to me that I strongly suspect there are other factors that I don't know about.
Yes, but there are workers photographed next to the tarp. The area is several floors up, so if the legs were visible from the street, the body would have to be right on the outside, not deeper in.

Its not an argument from incredulity so much as the reasonable inference from the given evidence. While I'm sure there is more to the story, the area could be seen to be accessible to men on foot, as pictured. The body would seem to be at least partially exposed, so not entirely inaccessible. The city has made to efforts at all to remove the corpse for three months, except to go back up again and put up a fresh tarp, again with men just a couple feet away.
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Old 23rd January 2020, 11:02 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
The city has made no efforts at all to remove the corpse for three months
Post #14 explains why.
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Old 23rd January 2020, 11:12 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Post #14 explains why.
Post #14 describes the lamest of cop outs and contractor disputes. Men can get to one of the victims. They are pictured being able to walk there. They go up to prop a tarp in front of the rotting corpse once in a while, evidently without problems.

So post #14 affirms IMO that New Orleans just doesn't give a **** about dead bodies on their streets.
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Old 23rd January 2020, 11:15 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Its not an argument from incredulity so much as the reasonable inference from the given evidence. While I'm sure there is more to the story, the area could be seen to be accessible to men on foot, as pictured. The body would seem to be at least partially exposed, so not entirely inaccessible. The city has made to efforts at all to remove the corpse for three months, except to go back up again and put up a fresh tarp, again with men just a couple feet away.
The body is probably stuck between collapsed material. Getting to the body doesn't suffice to remove the body. Simply cutting away surrounding material probably risks further collapse.
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Old 23rd January 2020, 11:45 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The body is probably stuck between collapsed material. Getting to the body doesn't suffice to remove the body. Simply cutting away surrounding material probably risks further collapse.
Yeah, I get that. Its probably not a question of just picking him up and walking away. But logisticly, I doubt his rotting carcass is actually holding the building up. And they are not trying to bring out a survivor, where further damage during extraction is a threat.

This sounds to me like the City saying 'So who's going up there? Phil? Bob?'

'Not part of our union contract'

'Who's department is this, anyway? Let's schedule a meeting to discuss options'

'Yeah, Phil is going to Disney that week. Maybe next month?'
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Old 23rd January 2020, 11:48 AM   #52
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Are there not public health laws or regulations regarding "storage" of human bodies?
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Old 23rd January 2020, 11:54 AM   #53
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My understanding is that victims in earthquake-damaged areas are removed from partially-collapsed buildings in fairly short order all the time without need for months of "stability assessments".
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Old 23rd January 2020, 11:54 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
But logisticly, I doubt his rotting carcass is actually holding the building up. And they are not trying to bring out a survivor, where further damage during extraction is a threat.
The things laying on top of the body might be holding the building up. The things that need to be moved from around the body to get to him might be holding the building up.

They still have to think of the safety of the people that would need to get him. I doubt anyone is sitting around pleased as punch that there's a dead body in a building that's garnering national attention. I also highly doubt that they're just leaving it because "Phil" has a doctor's appt, or is on vacation. More than likely there's an underlying cause.

Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
My understanding is that victims in earthquake-damaged areas are removed from partially-collapsed buildings in fairly short order all the time without need for months of "stability assessments".
In North Dakota we laugh all of the time at how places can get an inch of snow and be shut down for a full day. It's because we're prepared here for snow. Our city has all of the equipment needed to handle those incidents. I'd suspect that might be the case here as well.

I honestly don't know, and I'm not trying to defend the city\state\etc. I don't live there, I don't really care what goes on there, but generally when something like this is in the news there is something more to it.
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Old 23rd January 2020, 12:10 PM   #55
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From NBC they have a link to a twitter post from the city. According to that it's not the city's job to clean it up, and they aren't just leaving it because "Phil" has an eye exam.

Quote:
...notes the condition of the site has further deteriorated since Oct. 12, when a large part of the building crumbled to the ground.
It also says:

Quote:
"Once we implode the building, the bodies will be recovered," McConnell said. "They are in the collapse. We've had experts from every field that we can find to come in here, and no one has been able to present a safe plan to do it without the risk of the building shifting and collapsing."
So it looks like the bodies aren't coming out until after the demolition no matter what. The National Guard was called in to try and help as well, and they couldn't get to the bodies safely. Sounds like everyone is blaming everyone else and it's causing a log jam.
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Old 23rd January 2020, 12:17 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I also highly doubt that they're just leaving it because "Phil" has a doctor's appt, or is on vacation. More than likely there's an underlying cause.
The underlying cause is explained in post #14.
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Old 23rd January 2020, 12:17 PM   #57
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So, until they decide it's time to get the bodies out, they can't get the bodies out? That's not "can't," it's "won't."
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Old 23rd January 2020, 12:20 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
So it looks like the bodies aren't coming out until after the demolition no matter what.
That was already explained in post #14.
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Old 23rd January 2020, 12:29 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
So, until they decide it's time to get the bodies out, they can't get the bodies out? That's not "can't," it's "won't."
Until they decide it's safe to send people in there to try to get the bodies out, they won't send people in there to get the bodies out.

I don't understand all the willful ignorance and hate around this issue. Surely sending live human beings in harm's way to dispose of dead human beings isn't a high priority for anyone, right?
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Old 23rd January 2020, 12:30 PM   #60
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Florida has no experience in this sort of thing. I bet they could find experts on the west coast with experience in earthquake recovery who could retrieve the bodies.
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Old 23rd January 2020, 12:30 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
The underlying cause is explained in post #14.
Jesus Christ, post #14, I got it. I went looking for updated information and just linked to what I was reading off of Google News.

Thank you very much for post #14, William. I will do nothing from this point forward than refer back to post #14. I love that post #14 has everything I need and if there are any questions I will be sure to refer back to post #14 to answer any of them. With the full story being in post #14 I will petition that this thread should be reduced to nothing but post #14. Thank you, William, again, for post #14 and I hope that my support of post #14 will never again be in question. hashtagpostfourteen

Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
So, until they decide it's time to get the bodies out, they can't get the bodies out? That's not "can't," it's "won't."
If that's what you took away from it then that's what it is, yes.
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Old 23rd January 2020, 12:32 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Until they decide it's safe to send people in there to try to get the bodies out, they won't send people in there to get the bodies out.

I don't understand all the willful ignorance and hate around this issue. Surely sending live human beings in harm's way to dispose of dead human beings isn't a high priority for anyone, right?
No. If they were saying the bodies will never come out because it will always be too unsafe to do so, that would make some twisted kind of sense. What we have here is a situation where there are steps they are going to take that will end with being able to remove the bodies, but they haven't taken those steps. Again, that's "won't," not "can't."

ETA: Also, I think you know what you can do with your personal attacks.

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Old 23rd January 2020, 12:36 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Florida has no experience in this sort of thing. I bet they could find experts on the west coast with experience in earthquake recovery who could retrieve the bodies.
I'd be very surprised if Florida had experience with the city of New Orleans.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if experienced earthquake recovery types all agreed that it's not worth going into a half-collapsed building to recover dead bodies.

I also wouldn't be surprised if the city has already consulted the relevant experts, and that the current policy is the result of their recommendations.
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Old 23rd January 2020, 12:38 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
No. If they were saying the bodies will never come out because it will always be too unsafe to do so, that would make some twisted kind of sense. What we have here is a situation where there are steps they are going to take that will end with being able to remove the bodies, but they haven't taken those steps. Again, that's "won't," not "can't."

ETA: Also, I think you know what you can do with your personal attacks.
From what I understand what you've said is kind of half right, half wrong. It's been 3 months and they went through a few different options to try and get the bodies out. The first responders tried, then the National Guard tried, then they brought in others to evaluate the situation, and all of that has failed. Now it's to the point where they know they have to destroy the building which, if you look at post #14, has been planned to be carried out.

So I believe at this point it's more of an "in the process" scenario rather than just won't. Even wiring a building, and imploding it will take time, but they haven't given a status update as to where they are in that process.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I also wouldn't be surprised if the city has already consulted the relevant experts, and that the current policy is the result of their recommendations.
This statement is supported by the fact that the National Guard came out and stated they couldn't get in and the fire chief has said that they've consulted with many people. You can find helpful information about that in the post that has been numbered as 14.
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Old 23rd January 2020, 12:39 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
In North Dakota we laugh all of the time at how places can get an inch of snow and be shut down for a full day.
Reminds me of when Atlanta got two inches and all the cars on the highway were abandoned and the city essentially out of commission. Meanwhile, in Quebec over the same week-end we got 50 or 60 cm of snow and it was just business as usual.
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Old 23rd January 2020, 12:40 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
There is so much that is explained in post #14. Everybody needs to read that article.
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Post #14 explains why.
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
The underlying cause is explained in post #14.
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
That was already explained in post #14.
We heard you the first time.
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Old 23rd January 2020, 12:42 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'd be very surprised if Florida had experience with the city of New Orleans.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if experienced earthquake recovery types all agreed that it's not worth going into a half-collapsed building to recover dead bodies.

I also wouldn't be surprised if the city has already consulted the relevant experts, and that the current policy is the result of their recommendations.
I'm not so sure the city has the budget for long distance calls to the west coast. Let's assume they don't and are too lazy to care about something that is literally causing them actual stress in their jobs. It makes me feel better. God, they are so stupid, when you look at form that point of view.
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Old 23rd January 2020, 12:45 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
From what I understand what you've said is kind of half right, half wrong. It's been 3 months and they went through a few different options to try and get the bodies out. The first responders tried, then the National Guard tried, then they brought in others to evaluate the situation, and all of that has failed. Now it's to the point where they know they have to destroy the building which, if you look at post #14, has been planned to be carried out.

So I believe at this point it's more of an "in the process" scenario rather than just won't. Even wiring a building, and imploding it will take time, but they haven't given a status update as to where they are in that process.
Were they just giving every individual consultant their own week to conduct a brand new examination of the site and ruminate before saying "no?" Three months is a long time, even taking out a week for holidays.
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Old 23rd January 2020, 12:49 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
Were they just giving every individual consultant their own week to conduct a brand new examination of the site and ruminate before saying "no?" Three months is a long time, even taking out a week for holidays.
I certainly won't argue that it's taken a ridiculous amount of time to get this done. I would say the 1.5 months is understandable. Right now we're at the point of incompetence and terrible organization.
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Old 23rd January 2020, 01:01 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I certainly won't argue that it's taken a ridiculous amount of time to get this done. I would say the 1.5 months is understandable. Right now we're at the point of incompetence and terrible organization.
I wasn't implying that you were defending the situation, but there are definitely people in this thread who are doing so, and doing so emphatically enough to insult those who consider this inexcusable incompetence. It's not like demolishing buildings and removing the resulting debris is a brand new human endeavor.

In other words, I don't doubt the opinions of experts that recovering the bodies intact is so unsafe as to be impossible. What I doubt is that there's been a good faith effort to clear the site by whatever means are necessary so that the community and the families can get some closure. Having a rotting corpse out in the open for months on end (yeah, IMO the tarps don't count) should be considered unacceptable by any sensible person...a lot more unacceptable than creepy gawkers taking pictures of said corpse.
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Old 23rd January 2020, 01:07 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
I wasn't implying that you were defending the situation, but there are definitely people in this thread who are doing so, and doing so emphatically enough to insult those who consider this inexcusable incompetence. It's not like demolishing buildings and removing the resulting debris is a brand new human endeavor.

In other words, I don't doubt the opinions of experts that recovering the bodies intact is so unsafe as to be impossible. What I doubt is that there's been a good faith effort to clear the site by whatever means are necessary so that the community and the families can get some closure. Having a rotting corpse out in the open for months on end (yeah, IMO the tarps don't count) should be considered unacceptable by any sensible person...a lot more unacceptable than creepy gawkers taking pictures of said corpse.
Ah, I could have misread as well. I'm putting most of the blame on the company that was building the structure. From what I've read, properly contained in post #14, it looks like the company is in charge of demolition and clean up.
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Old 23rd January 2020, 01:10 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Are there not public health laws or regulations regarding "storage" of human bodies?
That's not storage. Nobody put him there.
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Old 23rd January 2020, 01:12 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I certainly won't argue that it's taken a ridiculous amount of time to get this done. I would say the 1.5 months is understandable. Right now we're at the point of incompetence and terrible organization.
It's an emergency situation. Anything measured in months is too long. Sometimes you gotta bust a move, and not make press releases saying that body removal is not the City's job.

They sure seemed to have no problem getting up there with a new tarp. Guy looks pretty casual, too.

If his legs are exposed and out in the open enough to be seen from the ground, we are talking about three foot of corpse under something. Kind of doubt that three foot of whatever is holding the Hard Rock up.

I wonder what the story is with the second guy? Is he in sight too, or do they just assume he is dead in there? Was he alive while the city talked about how it was not their job?

No, post #14 is generic language and answers nothing for me.
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Old 23rd January 2020, 01:12 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I also wouldn't be surprised if the city has already consulted the relevant experts, and that the current policy is the result of their recommendations.
I wouldn't be surprised if the city hasn't actually consulted with any relevant experts, and is just saying they have as an off-the-cuff excuse.
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Old 23rd January 2020, 01:14 PM   #75
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What's the emergency?
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Old 23rd January 2020, 01:17 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
We heard you the first time.
And yet questions kept coming that were already answered in post #14. They kept coming and coming and coming.
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Old 23rd January 2020, 01:25 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
No, post #14 is generic language and answers nothing for me.
Post #14 explains that the delay is strictly based on how long it takes the owner of the building to decide on a demolition contractor and begin the demolition.

Anyone who is outraged at the length of time should contact the building owner to complain and tell them to hurry up.
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Old 23rd January 2020, 01:28 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Yes, but there are workers photographed next to the tarp. The area is several floors up, so if the legs were visible from the street, the body would have to be right on the outside, not deeper in.

Its not an argument from incredulity so much as the reasonable inference from the given evidence. While I'm sure there is more to the story, the area could be seen to be accessible to men on foot, as pictured. The body would seem to be at least partially exposed, so not entirely inaccessible. The city has made to efforts at all to remove the corpse for three months, except to go back up again and put up a fresh tarp, again with men just a couple feet away.
Here's some more photos.

https://uk.glbnews.com/01-2020/52780564855288/

One without tarp.

https://wcti12.com/news/nation-world...covery-mission

You can't really see anything.

It does appear that the body is under a section where it may be impossible to get it out without a whole bunch of more rubble coming down.
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Old 23rd January 2020, 01:38 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
If his legs are exposed and out in the open enough to be seen from the ground, we are talking about three foot of corpse under something.
We don't know how much of his leg is visible, so no, it could be more than that.

Quote:
Kind of doubt that three foot of whatever is holding the Hard Rock up.
I doubt it's that simple. The problem is probably not that his body is bearing the load, but that you can't physically remove the body without moving stuff which potentially IS bearing significant load.

Quote:
I wonder what the story is with the second guy? Is he in sight too, or do they just assume he is dead in there?
No, he's buried under debris and not visible. They know approximate but not exact location, but aren't prepared to dig through the debris which is still on the unstable building, not on the ground.

Quote:
Was he alive while the city talked about how it was not their job?
From the description, very unlikely.
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Old 23rd January 2020, 01:43 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
If his legs are exposed and out in the open enough to be seen from the ground, we are talking about three foot of corpse under something. Kind of doubt that three foot of whatever is holding the Hard Rock up.
I believe the National Guard and the trained individuals that have come out to survey the situation. I don't have the ability to assess this situation because I don't understand structural integrity as well as experts.

I agree with theprestige as well, this isn't really an emergency situation. They've blocked access to the site, should it fall, and everyone inside are not going to die anymore. It is absolutely imperative that the body be removed, but it isn't an emergency.
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