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Old 14th July 2020, 01:20 PM   #681
psionl0
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
So why not just ignore it?
I have also explained why I respond many times before.

This forum is supposed to be about critical thinking but this thread attracts nutcasery that would do a CTer or religious zealot proud.
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Old 14th July 2020, 01:21 PM   #682
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I'd advise you not to touch it unless you're a criminal or a gambler.
Why? Is the price about to collapse permanently (this time)?
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Old 14th July 2020, 01:25 PM   #683
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
This forum is supposed to be about critical thinking but this thread attracts nutcasery that would do a CTer or religious zealot proud.
If you stop posting here that number might just drop to zero.

Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Why? Is the price about to collapse permanently (this time)?
No, the price's just unreliable and varies wildly. You know this, of course. You've long abandoned any pretense of debating this topic critically.
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Old 14th July 2020, 01:31 PM   #684
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Originally Posted by healthmanifested View Post
What do you all think about BitCoin? I have heard good and bad. I have heard it's really hard to convert it to US dollars.
Well. You need computer on internet. That's about it.
You start account on any exchange, transfer BTC from your wallet to exchange, which is the biggest loss of value, as you have to pay the cloud for the transaction. After that, flipping BTC to USD and back on the exchange is fast and cheap. Then you have to send USD from exchange to your bank, which is usually also pretty cheap.
For quick and small investing you keep your BTC at the exchange, selling it in relatively short term. If you want to use BTC as currency, you have to use the BTC->BTC transfer, and of course, money on exchange are not really yours, so if you want the BTC to be really yours, you have to transfer any BTC you buy to your private wallet, and pay for the transaction again.
I certainly wouldn't call it hard. But depends on your computer literacy.
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Old 14th July 2020, 01:48 PM   #685
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
No, the price's just unreliable and varies wildly. You know this, of course. You've long abandoned any pretense of debating this topic critically.
Investment is always gamble. True BTC offers biger gains and losses, compared to stockmarket or commodities, but in essence it's just the same.
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Old 14th July 2020, 02:06 PM   #686
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
Investment is always gamble. True BTC offers biger gains and losses, compared to stockmarket or commodities, but in essence it's just the same.
Yes but gambling is basically all BTC is good for. I mean, if that's your thing, go with it, but there are some associated risks beyond your BTC losing value.
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Old 14th July 2020, 02:31 PM   #687
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Yes but gambling is basically all BTC is good for. I mean, if that's your thing, go with it, but there are some associated risks beyond your BTC losing value.
Like what ? Making profit ?
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Old 14th July 2020, 02:37 PM   #688
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
Like what ? Making profit ?
Losing your wallet entirely.

But you probably knew that.
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Old 14th July 2020, 03:18 PM   #689
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Losing your wallet entirely.

But you probably knew that.
No, never heard about that one.
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Old 14th July 2020, 04:08 PM   #690
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
No, never heard about that one.
Well, sorry to tell you. It's happened that some BTC wallets were, ahem, "lost" in the chaos that is blockchain.

Better to speculate on the stock market. At least you're dealing with real money and real commodities.
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Old 15th July 2020, 02:34 AM   #691
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Well, sorry to tell you. It's happened that some BTC wallets were, ahem, "lost" in the chaos that is blockchain.

Better to speculate on the stock market. At least you're dealing with real money and real commodities.
Wallets, ahem, "lost" ? Such precise and well supported information !
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Old 15th July 2020, 03:50 AM   #692
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
Wallets, ahem, "lost" ? Such precise and well supported information !
Now you're just being ridiculous. We've talked about this at length in this thread. Yes, wallets "lost". As in poof! Gone.

In most cases it's due to an error from the user, but it can still happen, and it's a lot harder to recover your money in BTC than say with a bank.
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Old 15th July 2020, 04:35 AM   #693
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Now you're just being ridiculous. We've talked about this at length in this thread. Yes, wallets "lost". As in poof! Gone.

In most cases it's due to an error from the user, but it can still happen, and it's a lot harder to recover your money in BTC than say with a bank.
So lost or "lost" ? What does it even mean ? Can you support your claim or not ?
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Old 15th July 2020, 04:44 AM   #694
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
So lost or "lost" ?
What are you babbling about? You're the one who put them in quotation marks to begin with.

The BTC are lost, and it may be very difficult or impossible to recover them. Wouldn't you call that a risk associated with trading BTC?

Quote:
Can you support your claim or not ?
You know, sometimes I wonder if a poster's request for "support" of a "claim" is genuine, or if they're playing games. I have a hard time believing that someone who's either followed this thread over time or that has had any interest in Bitcoin would be ignorant of this issue.

The thing, of course, is that if you call these posters' bluff, they'll just pretend that you can't support your claim. it's a nice trick that allows them to perpetually deny evidence presented, and which shows that dishonesty is a lot easier than honesty.

https://www.investopedia.com/news/20...e-study-shows/

https://nypost.com/2018/05/26/i-acci...th-of-bitcoin/

https://fortune.com/2017/11/25/lost-bitcoins/

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/12/20/man-...-him-look.html

Now, you can argue as I have that this is mostly their own fault, but it's risk that you normally don't run with a bank account with actual money in it.
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Old 15th July 2020, 05:50 AM   #695
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
If you stop posting here that number might just drop to zero.
If you are trying to suggest that all arguments in this thread against bitcoin are sound then you have long abandoned any pretense of debating this topic critically.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Well, sorry to tell you. It's happened that some BTC wallets were, ahem, "lost" in the chaos that is blockchain.
If you wanted to remind us that bitcoin wallets can be lost or stolen then fine but don't suggest that the blockchain is somehow faulty. Only somebody who was totally ignorant would make such a remark.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Better to speculate on the stock market. At least you're dealing with real money and real commodities.
And there we have it. Bitcoin is "not real". That is what is driving your irrational fear of bitcoin.
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Old 15th July 2020, 06:08 AM   #696
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
If you are trying to suggest that all arguments in this thread against bitcoin are sound then you have long abandoned any pretense of debating this topic critically.
Wow, that's pretty bad logic, right there. I'll let you think about why what you said has no relation to what you were responding to.

Quote:
If you wanted to remind us that bitcoin wallets can be lost or stolen then fine but don't suggest that the blockchain is somehow faulty. Only somebody who was totally ignorant would make such a remark.
Only true believers think blockchain is safe.

Quote:
And there we have it. Bitcoin is "not real".
Again, that's not what I said and what you quoted. Why do you lie so obviously?
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Old 15th July 2020, 06:13 AM   #697
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
What are you babbling about? You're the one who put them in quotation marks to begin with.
No, it was you in post 690.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
The BTC are lost, and it may be very difficult or impossible to recover them. Wouldn't you call that a risk associated with trading BTC?

You know, sometimes I wonder if a poster's request for "support" of a "claim" is genuine, or if they're playing games. I have a hard time believing that someone who's either followed this thread over time or that has had any interest in Bitcoin would be ignorant of this issue.

The thing, of course, is that if you call these posters' bluff, they'll just pretend that you can't support your claim. it's a nice trick that allows them to perpetually deny evidence presented, and which shows that dishonesty is a lot easier than honesty.

Now, you can argue as I have that this is mostly their own fault, but it's risk that you normally don't run with a bank account with actual money in it.
No, I genuinely wondered what you are talking about. And the fact you wrote "lost" confused me even more. You made it sounds like BTC can just vanish , by itself.
Besides all these being user error, it's not like the wallet is lost. You just don't have access to it. IMHO it's important, if technical, detail. Bitcoins itself won't vanish, not wallets.

And yes, money in bank cannot be lost this way. Your physical wallet can be. Brick of gold too.

Actually I thought you are speaking about exchange hacks, which are quite common, sadly. Sure, you are only vulnerable as long as you keep your money on the exchange .. but for short term trading, that's what you usually do.

You simply explained yourself poorly, and when asked, didn't improve it a bit, only made it worse. If you linked one case in your first post, all would be easier.

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Old 15th July 2020, 06:16 AM   #698
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
No, it was you in post 690.
My mistake. Yes, lost.

Quote:
Besides all these being user error, it's not like the wallet is lost. You just don't have access to it.
What's the difference? If you can never get hold of that money anymore, it's lost, quotation marks or not. And it's not all user error, but even if it were, it is an inherent risk of trading in BTC, which was my initial point.

Quote:
Actually I thought you are speaking about exchange hacks, which are quite common, sadly.
Those _were_ included.

The point is that BTC can be lost in ways that are not usually risks with investments. That is a risk of BTC, which is why I brought it up when it was asked. I don't know why it was so controversial when it turns out you know what I was talking about.
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Old 15th July 2020, 06:45 AM   #699
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For those of you wanting some Bitcoin related infortainment,

All Lawyers Are Bastards (ALAB), has a podcast episode covering the Faketoshi lawsuits. It's a lawsuit about a guy claiming to be behind the creation of Bitcoin who allegedly stole a bunch of bitcoins worth billions of dollars from his dead business partner.

The man, Craig Wright, claims to 1/3 of the group behind Satoshi Nakamoto, though is widely regarded as a liar, hence "Faketoshi".

It's an interesting lawsuit because Craig is a repeat liar and digs an immensely deep whole for himself throughout the legal process.

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcas...=1000449092346
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Old 15th July 2020, 07:01 AM   #700
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Wow, that's pretty bad logic, right there. I'll let you think about why what you said has no relation to what you were responding to.
You claimed that the amount of nutcasery in this thread would drop to zero if I didn't post here. If you don't believe that the arguments by others are sound then you were telling a bald faced lie.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Only true believers think blockchain is safe.
Then you are totally ignorant. Bitcoin wallets can be lost or stolen, exchanges or personal computers can be hacked but nobody can hack the blockchain.

You should learn a few facts about this new fangled technology before you go off half cocked and attack any arguers who don't denounce bitcoin.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Again, that's not what I said and what you quoted. Why do you lie so obviously?
Your post distinguished between bitcoin and "real" money and "real" commodities. You can't squirm your way out of this one.
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Old 15th July 2020, 10:18 AM   #701
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Yes but gambling is basically all BTC is good for.
It's also good for purchasing certain goods and services equivalent to billions of dollars annually.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Well, sorry to tell you. It's happened that some BTC wallets were, ahem, "lost" in the chaos that is blockchain.
Your wording is a bit ambiguous so to be clear people can lose their wallets or have them stolen/ hacked but there is no glitch or hacking of Btc or its blockchain such that your wallet disappears.
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Old 15th July 2020, 11:10 AM   #702
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
You claimed that the amount of nutcasery in this thread would drop to zero if I didn't post here.
Yes I did. You replied with something about sound arguments. I said nothing about that.

Quote:
You should learn a few facts about this new fangled technology
Oh, I've learned quite a lot in the last few years. For instance, I've learned that psiol0 will always defend bitcoin from any sort of criticism no matter how slight, but will deny doing so.

Quote:
Your post distinguished between bitcoin and "real" money and "real" commodities. You can't squirm your way out of this one.
There's no squirming required. You accused me of saying that bitcoin is not real. I said no such thing. You lied. Hell, you even quote me here, proving yourself wrong.
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Old 15th July 2020, 11:12 AM   #703
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Originally Posted by The_Animus View Post
It's also good for purchasing certain goods and services equivalent to billions of dollars annually.
I didn't say it was not used for anything but gambling. I said gambling is all it's good for.
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Old 15th July 2020, 12:32 PM   #704
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
Investment is always gamble. True BTC offers biger gains and losses, compared to stockmarket or commodities, but in essence it's just the same.
Investing involves risk but that isn’t the same thing as gambling. Investors don’t play the part of the gambler they are playing the part of the casino and look to leverage underlying trends in their favor to come out ahead in the long term. Since bitcoin price is almost entirely a function of speculators betting against each other, there is no legal advantage to be had.
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Old 15th July 2020, 01:00 PM   #705
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Oh, I've learned quite a lot in the last few years. For instance, I've learned that psiol0 will always defend bitcoin from any sort of criticism no matter how slight, but will deny doing so.
But you have clearly learned nothing about the technology. That is why you address the arguer instead.

Even then you have to equate pointing out a faulty argument to defending bitcoin from all criticism.
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Old 15th July 2020, 01:07 PM   #706
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Investing involves risk but that isn’t the same thing as gambling. Investors don’t play the part of the gambler they are playing the part of the casino and look to leverage underlying trends in their favor to come out ahead in the long term. Since bitcoin price is almost entirely a function of speculators betting against each other, there is no legal advantage to be had.
A large factor in the price of bitcoin is "hodling". People buy them and hang onto them. The more people that do this, the more upward pressure on the bitcoin price.

Obviously, this effect is swamped by the activities of speculators but we are not talking about "bitcoin casino".
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Old 15th July 2020, 01:21 PM   #707
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
But you have clearly learned nothing about the technology. That is why you address the arguer instead.
No, the two aren't mutually exclusive.
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Old 15th July 2020, 02:13 PM   #708
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Send your rat poison to these good citizens.

https://decrypt.co/35702/bill-gates-...e=trading-view

His tweet comes just moments after Elon Musk's account was hacked. Musk's account made a very similar tweet pointed users to the same Bitcoin address. That address has since received 5.8 Bitcoin ($54,000) from victims of the attack.

Elon Musk's official account then replied to Bill Gates, calling him his brother. This fake endorsement was likely to convince more people that the scam was genuine.
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Old 15th July 2020, 03:16 PM   #709
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Here's an entirely incidental snippet that any bitcoin noobs reading this -- like yours truly! -- might find interesting.

People keep talking here about "hodling". Clearly a typo, right? But one saw the term used far too often for that.

So I thought to ask, but before typing the question here, ran a one-word search on google. Turns out hodling is, indeed, a thing. Except it means exactly the same as holding, spelt the old-fashioned away, but when applied to bitcoin and to cryptoinvestments generally, that's how you spell it.

And why? Because apparently some years ago, a poster on a bitcoin message board, who happened to be drunk, misspelt the word, and the "hodl" spelling caught on thereafter!
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Old 15th July 2020, 03:18 PM   #710
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Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
Here's an entirely incidental snippet that any bitcoin noobs reading this -- like yours truly! -- might find interesting.

People keep talking here about "hodling". Clearly a typo, right? But one saw the term used far too often for that.

So I thought to ask, but before typing the question here, ran a one-word search on google. Turns out hodling is, indeed, a thing. Except it means exactly the same as holding, spelt the old-fashioned away, but when applied to bitcoin and to cryptoinvestments generally, that's how you spell it.

And why? Because apparently some years ago, a poster on a bitcoin message board, who happened to be drunk, misspelt the word, and the "hodl" spelling caught on thereafter!
Dude, hodling means much more than holding. Everyone can hold, but only true alpha investors can HODL. You have lot to learn.
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Old 15th July 2020, 03:30 PM   #711
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Send your rat poison to these good citizens.

https://decrypt.co/35702/bill-gates-...e=trading-view
Quote:
It's all part of a massive attack taking place throughout Twitter right now. So far, accounts of major crypto exchanges have been hacked, including Binance, Coinbase, Gemini, KuCoin and Bitfinex. Litecoin founder Charlie Lee and Tron CEO Justin Sun have also tweeted the same scam, which encourages users to go to a fake website.

Uber and Apple's official Twitter accounts have also posted the same scam in the last few minutes.
Awesome! This is where Bitcoin really shines. A bunch of bitcoiners have just 'donated' money to an anonymous scammer, with no chance of getting it back! How can I get in on that?

Now that everyone can see where Bitcoin's true potential lies, I bet the price is going to the Moon!
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Old 15th July 2020, 03:31 PM   #712
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
Dude, hodling means much more than holding. Everyone can hold, but only true alpha investors can HODL. You have lot to learn.

Indeed! And yes, point taken about the caps.

Last edited by Chanakya; 15th July 2020 at 03:32 PM.
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Old 15th July 2020, 03:41 PM   #713
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
Dude, hodling means much more than holding. Everyone can hold, but only true alpha investors can HODL. You have lot to learn.
That's right, and true alpha HODLers do it forever!

Bitcoin will never die while people continue to HODL, because it will always have value to them - even if the price drops to zero. Since they never intend to sell, the price is irrelevant! But for others it's a different story. With everyone HODLing there will be no speculation and no mining - just the equivalent of keeping expired banknotes in a tin box under your bed.
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Old 15th July 2020, 03:59 PM   #714
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Thing is, as a concept, bitcoin is actually brilliant. No reason why, going forward, some cryptocurrency/ies might not provide, in practice, what bitcoin promised, back when. (Or, of course, not. But it's possible, I suppose. After all, the dollar as reserve currency makes no more sense, when you think about it -- even less, if anything! -- than this. So if people could work out the glitches and come up with something after learning from the bitcoin misadventure, well, why not?)
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Old 15th July 2020, 04:21 PM   #715
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Awesome! This is where Bitcoin really shines. A bunch of bitcoiners have just 'donated' money to an anonymous scammer, with no chance of getting it back! How can I get in on that?

Now that everyone can see where Bitcoin's true potential lies, I bet the price is going to the Moon!
You mean if you send good old dollars to Nigerian prince, you will get them back ?
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Old 15th July 2020, 08:06 PM   #716
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I didn't say it was not used for anything but gambling. I said gambling is all it's good for.
Obviously it's also good for purchasing certain goods and services.
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Old 15th July 2020, 08:14 PM   #717
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Send your rat poison to these good citizens.

https://decrypt.co/35702/bill-gates-...e=trading-view

His tweet comes just moments after Elon Musk's account was hacked. Musk's account made a very similar tweet pointed users to the same Bitcoin address. That address has since received 5.8 Bitcoin ($54,000) from victims of the attack.

Elon Musk's official account then replied to Bill Gates, calling him his brother. This fake endorsement was likely to convince more people that the scam was genuine.
Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Awesome! This is where Bitcoin really shines. A bunch of bitcoiners have just 'donated' money to an anonymous scammer, with no chance of getting it back! How can I get in on that?

Now that everyone can see where Bitcoin's true potential lies, I bet the price is going to the Moon!
According to some guy named Madoff, fiat money is so awesome that no one ever gets scammed.
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Old 16th July 2020, 05:17 AM   #718
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Originally Posted by The_Animus View Post
According to some guy named Madoff, fiat money is so awesome that no one ever gets scammed.
I think the conversation is important, and this is a serious thread.
Last week I bought 2 pizzas and garlic bread from Dominos.
With a debit card or bank notes. One or other.
I consider the staff would have refused bitcoin.
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Old 16th July 2020, 05:24 AM   #719
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Originally Posted by The_Animus View Post
Obviously it's also good for purchasing certain goods and services.
"Obviously" means "in my opinion".

That is CAN be used for something doesn't mean it's good at it.
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Old 16th July 2020, 06:36 AM   #720
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
I think the conversation is important, and this is a serious thread.
Last week I bought 2 pizzas and garlic bread from Dominos.
With a debit card or bank notes. One or other.
I consider the staff would have refused bitcoin.
And? What does this have to do with what you're responding to? Are you trying to say when people scam your fiat money it's easier to spend those ill gotten gains and you can spend it on a greater variety of things?

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
"Obviously" means "in my opinion".

That is CAN be used for something doesn't mean it's good at it.
It is good at it, for a certain subset of goods and services. That's why there are billions in sales.
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