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Tags Josef Stalin , Russia history , Soviet Union history

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Old 12th August 2017, 09:44 AM   #81
caveman1917
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
If you want to spend time doing that rather than reading the exhaustive literature on the subject already composed by scholars, who have in the past performed such exercises, go ahead. Or read the works of these scholars.
What makes you think I haven't?

Quote:
Why don't you do that?
If you got a case to prove it's up to you to prove it, not up to me to prove you wrong. But since this concept seems so terribly hard for you to grasp:

1. Harvest failure affects countries differently depending on a whole range of factors, from available reserves, to trade opportunities, and so on.

2. While Germany was well-equipped to handle the food deficit, even in Romania the situation was much more close, they barely got by until the next harvest.

3. I already asked about the other countries in the region, which you conveniently ignored. For example in Poland peasants were starving. If you want to make this argument you actually have to exclude all of the other places which were hit by these harvest failures.

4. And even if you manage to show that the USSR was unique in its failure to deal with the crisis leading to starvation, then you'd still have to show that, out of all possible causes for this, it was specifically the "economic system introduced by Stalin" which caused it. You still have to argue your case on its own terms.

5. Of course you could also simply start by arguing your case on its own terms, since it's where your current line of argument would lead you anyway, rather than this bizarre non-sequitur you're employing about there being no famine in Germany. It appears that, for some reason, you're just "sticking onto" my argument about harvest-reducing plant disease without realizing that for my argument I merely needed to show the existence of an unpredictable and uncontrollable harvest failure in the USSR, since being unpredictable it refuted the "premeditated Evil Plan" hypothesis.

6. Regarding your methodology based on nothing but "there exists a journalist which says X about a famine somwhere" - well, I've got you an article series by Walter Duranty to sell.

Quote:
Because the scholars are more or less unanimous that Stalin's economic reforms were the prime cause of the disaster.
And?

Quote:
I have set down my reasoning. Over to you.
Your reasoning is a non-sequitur. Find better reasoning.
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Old 12th August 2017, 10:07 AM   #82
Craig B
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
What makes you think I haven't?

If you got a case to prove it's up to you to prove it, not up to me to prove you wrong. But since this concept seems so terribly hard for you to grasp, I'll throw you another bone:
... For example in Poland peasants were starving.
You need to give me a source of data on this Polish famine; with mortality figures etc. Here's what I've found so far, which doesn't seem to establish your case.

But give me the data on these non-USSR famines in 1932-33. If you assert that they happened it's up to you to prove it. You will perhaps say again that you don't care, and that will put an end to this fascinating conversation.
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Old 12th August 2017, 10:16 AM   #83
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So the discussion is really, "which is worse, killing 10 million people on purpose or killing 30 million accidentally?" and "Did Stalin kill those People on purpose or not?"
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Old 12th August 2017, 10:33 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
So the discussion is really, "which is worse, killing 10 million people on purpose or killing 30 million accidentally?" and "Did Stalin kill those People on purpose or not?"
I think Caveman1917 is disputing whether Stalin was responsible for any mass killing.

(Spoiler alert, he was - and given his use of hunger as a weapon in the gulags, I think that Craig B is probably erring on the side of caution in saying that he thinks it was probably a side-effect rather than an intended effect of collectivisation)
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Old 12th August 2017, 10:35 AM   #85
caveman1917
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
You need to give me a source of data on this Polish famine; with mortality figures etc.
I need do no such thing. Again, it's up to you to prove your case, and if that case includes all sorts of assertions about conditions in the countries in the rest of Eastern Europe, then it's up to you to provide evidence for the existence of such conditions.

Quote:
Here's what I've found so far, which doesn't seem to establish your case.
This proves what exactly?

Quote:
But give me the data on these non-USSR famines in 1932-33. If you assert that they happened it's up to you to prove it.
My argument requires no assertion at all about the conditions in the rest of Eastern Europe other than that there was an unpredictable and uncontrollable harvest failure with properties such that we'd have to also conclude it to have existed within the USSR.

If you mean the "in Poland peasants were starving", consider it just one example of many things which you need to exclude for your case. Not that, even if you were to succeed in excluding all that, you'd be much closer to supporting that it was, specifically, the economic policy which caused it. But who am I to judge what you waste your time on...

Quote:
You will perhaps say again that you don't care, and that will put an end to this fascinating conversation.
Yet I really don't care indeed, because it's irrelevant to my argument as well as to the conclusion of yours (ie "Stalin's economic system caused a famine").
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Old 12th August 2017, 10:44 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
I need do no such thing. Again, it's up to you to prove your case, and if that case includes all sorts of assertions about conditions in the countries in the rest of Eastern Europe, then it's up to you to provide evidence for the existence of such conditions.



This proves what exactly?



My argument requires no assertion at all about the conditions in the rest of Eastern Europe other than that there was an unpredictable and uncontrollable harvest failure with properties such that we'd have to also conclude it to have existed within the USSR.

If you mean the "in Poland peasants were starving", consider it just one example of many things which you need to exclude for your case. Not that, even if you were to succeed in excluding all that, you'd be much closer to supporting that it was, specifically, the economic policy which caused it. But who am I to judge what you waste your time on...



Yet I really don't care indeed, because it's irrelevant to my argument as well as to the conclusion of yours (ie "Stalin's economic system caused a famine").
What this shows is that famine was not reported in countries bordering the Soviet Union, despite similar climatic conditions.

As Ahel said, it's either killing millions by malice or incompetence.
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Old 12th August 2017, 10:50 AM   #87
caveman1917
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
What this shows is that famine was not reported in countries bordering the Soviet Union, despite similar climatic conditions.
Can you explain what exactly "this" is, which is supposed to prove that conclusion?

Quote:
As Ahel said, it's either killing millions by malice or incompetence.
And as I said, that's called a false dilemma.

ETA: Interestingly, your false dilemma is about the sequence of events and decisions by which the particular people which starved ended up starving, yet none of you seem even remotely interested in the wealth of documentation regarding this (such as in the archives). At least none of you bothered so far to bring any of it up.
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Old 12th August 2017, 11:18 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Can you explain what exactly "this" is, which is supposed to prove that conclusion?



And as I said, that's called a false dilemma.

ETA: Interestingly, your false dilemma is about the sequence of events and decisions by which the particular people which starved ended up starving, yet none of you seem even remotely interested in the wealth of documentation regarding this (such as in the archives). At least none of you bothered so far to bring any of it up.
Don't take us for simpletons with your nonsense. You have stated that famines occurred in countries other than the USSR. Source and data please. Give us a "wealth of documentation". Or that's an end of our conversation, fascinating as it has been.
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Old 12th August 2017, 11:24 AM   #89
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Craig B linked to a document showing that the Polish government was discussing what to do about the famine in Ukraine. They were not discussing what to do about a famine in Poland, and the paper discusses the Polish government's view of the factors in the artificially-created famine.

It is evidence that Poland was not suffering a famine at this time.
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Old 12th August 2017, 11:27 AM   #90
caveman1917
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Don't take us for simpletons
Why not?

Quote:
You have stated that famines occurred in countries other than the USSR. Source and data please.
The irony.

Quote:
Give us a "wealth of documentation".
Why should I? I took just as much out of it as I needed to make my case, feel free to delve into it yourself and take out whatever you need to make yours.

Quote:
Or that's an end of our conversation, fascinating as it has been.
I'm fine with that. So we can conclude the following?

- Evil PlanTM: refuted
- "Stalin's economic system": unevidenced
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Old 12th August 2017, 11:31 AM   #91
caveman1917
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
They were not discussing what to do about a famine in Poland
Any evidence for that?

Quote:
It is evidence that Poland was not suffering a famine at this time.
Well then I have evidence that nobody was starving in the USSR at the time, because I can give you a document wherein the government was not discussing what to do about the famine in the USSR.
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Old 12th August 2017, 11:34 AM   #92
Craig B
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Why not?



The irony.



Why should I? I took just as much out of it as I needed to make my case, feel free to delve into it yourself and take out whatever you need to make yours.



I'm fine with that. So we can conclude the following?

- Evil PlanTM: refuted
- "Stalin's economic system": unevidenced
I knew you'd start being a cheeky boy again as soon as you thought you had nothing more to lose by it. The repetition thing you were doing can't have been much fun.
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Old 12th August 2017, 11:48 AM   #93
caveman1917
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
I knew you'd start being a cheeky boy again as soon as you thought you had nothing more to lose by it. The repetition thing you were doing can't have been much fun.
It's rather that I concluded that I have nothing to gain from this, as I've concluded you'll probably never back up your claim to any sort of reasonable standard.
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Old 12th August 2017, 12:17 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
It is quite remarkable how profoundly you have missed the point that was made.
The point that was made was that the communists were (partially) blamed for the rise of the NSDAP because they didn't support the liberals, who were in turn supporting the NSDAP in the repression of the communists and other leftists.

Liberals before WW2: "**** the working class" -> get into trouble with the left -> "please save me, Hitler".

Liberals after WW2: "the communists made me vote for the Enabling Act".
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Old 13th August 2017, 01:30 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
I think Caveman1917 is disputing whether Stalin was responsible for any mass killing.

(Spoiler alert, he was - and given his use of hunger as a weapon in the gulags, I think that Craig B is probably erring on the side of caution in saying that he thinks it was probably a side-effect rather than an intended effect of collectivisation)
I would like to make my position clear again. I think that if Stalin could have taken over the peasants' land, harvests, grain stores and livestock without causing mass mortality, he would have done so. I brlieve that, because he committed himself to various population figures which turned out to be hopelessly optimistic when the 1937 census returns were analysed.

But he was willing to dispossess the peasants even at the cost of millions of lives, if that was the price he had to pay, so he is unquestionably guilty of this crime of mass murder. I also think that Ukrainians suffered disproportionately because their Republic was the main breadgrain-cultivating region, and therefore the most ruthlessly plundered by Stalin's grain procurement agencies; not primarily because Stalin wished to destroy the Ukrainians as an ethnic group.

The worst sufferers were the Kazhaks, who were nomadic pastoralists. Their herds and flocks simply vanished, and they had effectively no grain reserves at all.
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Old 13th August 2017, 02:24 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
Considering the documented willingness of the political commissars to summarily execute Russian soldiers and civilians during and immediately after WWII, I don't see much of a case for any benevolence on the part of the Soviet central government.
Well, you see, they did it for the greater good.
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Old 13th August 2017, 04:11 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Well, you see, they did it for the greater good.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUpbOliTHJY
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Old 13th August 2017, 05:06 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
But he was willing to dispossess the peasants even at the cost of millions of lives, if that was the price he had to pay, so he is unquestionably guilty of this crime of mass murder. I also think that Ukrainians suffered disproportionately because their Republic was the main breadgrain-cultivating region, and therefore the most ruthlessly plundered by Stalin's grain procurement agencies; not primarily because Stalin wished to destroy the Ukrainians as an ethnic group.
If only you could back up your "thoughts" with evidence.

Quote:
The worst sufferers were the Kazhaks, who were nomadic pastoralists.
The worst sufferers were the people who starved or died due to famine-induced disease or something. I'm assuming this pathological need to define groups of sufferers by their nationality, even as inaccurate as it is (plenty of Kazakhs survived just fine as well, as did plenty of Ukrainians), is related to this pathological anti-communist need to simply assume that everything that goes wrong is to blame on communists/Bolsheviks/Stalin/generic leftists/etc. Next thing they'll be blamed for the weather even. Oh wait

Quote:
Their herds and flocks simply vanished, and they had effectively no grain reserves at all.
Simply vanished? That doesn't seem consistent with basic physics.
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Old 13th August 2017, 05:31 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
If only you could back up your "thoughts" with evidence.
I see that because I referred to your repetition as being disagreeable, you're going to use it as your major trolling methodology.
Quote:
The worst sufferers were the people who starved or died due to famine-induced disease or something. I'm assuming this pathological need to define groups of sufferers by their nationality, even as inaccurate as it is (plenty of Kazakhs survived just fine as well, as did plenty of Ukrainians), is related to this pathological anti-communist need to simply assume that everything that goes wrong is to blame on communists/Bolsheviks/Stalin/generic leftists/etc. Next thing they'll be blamed for the weather even. Oh wait
About half the Kazakhs survived the two famines, of 1921 and 1932, and about half were lost. Just under 40% died in the collectivisation famine. Russians living in Kazakhstan did better, if this table is accurate. But perhaps it has been fabricated by fascists to discredit generic leftists. Who knows? I refer to the nationality of Kazakhs in 1932 for the same reason that I refer to the nationality of Irish in 1845. The famine seemed to affect them with particular severity. I think I can explain that, but doing so involves me in defining the USSR as (among other things) an imperial state.

Quote:
Simply vanished? That doesn't seem consistent with basic physics.
It is consistent with the basic behaviour of imperial states, believe you me.

I will not respond to any more of these foolish posts from you, as I don't want to be further distracted from rational thinking about important historical issues.

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Old 13th August 2017, 05:55 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
I would like to make my position clear again. I think that if Stalin could have taken over the peasants' land, harvests, grain stores and livestock without causing mass mortality, he would have done so. I brlieve that, because he committed himself to various population figures which turned out to be hopelessly optimistic when the 1937 census returns were analysed.

But he was willing to dispossess the peasants even at the cost of millions of lives, if that was the price he had to pay, so he is unquestionably guilty of this crime of mass murder. I also think that Ukrainians suffered disproportionately because their Republic was the main breadgrain-cultivating region, and therefore the most ruthlessly plundered by Stalin's grain procurement agencies; not primarily because Stalin wished to destroy the Ukrainians as an ethnic group.

The worst sufferers were the Kazhaks, who were nomadic pastoralists. Their herds and flocks simply vanished, and they had effectively no grain reserves at all.
It's only a matter of degree, and you may well be right, I tend to think that he wanted to destroy the Kulaks as a group, and the destruction of them as a group was more important than their survival as slaves, whilst my understanding of your view is that he merely wanted to take over their only means of support and would have preferred to have them as living slaves although without doing anything to help them.

Either way, given the 1,803,392 people deported to the labour colonies between 1930-31 (according to Soviet archives) I think we both agree that it is a bit of a moot point as to Stalin's motives.
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Old 13th August 2017, 05:58 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
"Was the Holodomor intentional genocide, or merely an unintentional side effect of Stalin's policies" could have led to an interesting historical discussion.

"Was Stalin really that bad" was not a good way to lead to that conversation, IMO.
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Old 13th August 2017, 06:28 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
It's only a matter of degree, and you may well be right, I tend to think that he wanted to destroy the Kulaks as a group, and the destruction of them as a group was more important than their survival as slaves, whilst my understanding of your view is that he merely wanted to take over their only means of support and would have preferred to have them as living slaves although without doing anything to help them.

Either way, given the 1,803,392 people deported to the labour colonies between 1930-31 (according to Soviet archives) I think we both agree that it is a bit of a moot point as to Stalin's motives.
These is an important distinction. The term Kulak refers to a (real or imagined) social category. So an attack on them might conceivably be explicable as a result of a social revolution, like French peasants dispossessing feudal aristocrats during the French Revolution, or the Union abolishing slaveowning after the Civil War. Such activity, however violent it may be, is by definition not "genocide". If it is a crime, it is another category of crime.

It is not in doubt that Stalin killed people and committed crimes in Ukraine. The point in dispute is whether the crimes were genocide. If Stalin killed Kulaks as such, or exiled peasants as such, he was certainly committing crimes, but only if he specifically committed these crimes against victims on account of their ethnicity did the crime count specifically as genocide.
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Old 13th August 2017, 06:41 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
These is an important distinction. The term Kulak refers to a (real or imagined) social category. So an attack on them might conceivably be explicable as a result of a social revolution, like French peasants dispossessing feudal aristocrats during the French Revolution, or the Union abolishing slaveowning after the Civil War. Such activity, however violent it may be, is by definition not "genocide". If it is a crime, it is another category of crime.

It is not in doubt that Stalin killed people and committed crimes in Ukraine. The point in dispute is whether the crimes were genocide. If Stalin killed Kulaks as such, or exiled peasants as such, he was certainly committing crimes, but only if he specifically committed these crimes against victims on account of their ethnicity did the crime count specifically as genocide.
I was careful not to mention genocide... although if you are destroying a group by repatriation or killing, then I think the definition might need widening. The obvious one would be the Nazi attempts to exterminate gays.
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link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
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US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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Old 13th August 2017, 06:53 AM   #104
caveman1917
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
I see that because I referred to your repetition as being disagreeable, you're going to use it as your major trolling methodology. About half the Kazakhs survived the two famines, of 1921 and 1932, and about half were lost. Just under 40% died in the collectivisation famine. Russians living in Kazakhstan did better, if this table is accurate. But perhaps it has been fabricated by fascists to discredit generic leftists. Who knows?
Yes, who knows indeed. More importantly, can you give the table for internal migration, deportations and other factors during that timespan so that we can distinguish what changes in the census were caused by what?

For example, at least in the Ukrainian SSR, kulaks were deported and people in general emigrated during those years (hence the passport laws attempting to stop people from leaving).

Quote:
It is consistent with the basic behaviour of imperial states, believe you me.
Breaking the laws of physics is consistent with the basic behaviour of "imperial states"?

Something which is consistent with having a lot of starving people around is animals being eaten, not just "simply disappearing".

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I will not respond to any more of these foolish posts from you, as I don't want to be further distracted from rational thinking about important historical issues.
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Old 13th August 2017, 07:30 AM   #105
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Actually, Russians living in Kazakhstan did not just "do better" but got pumped so full of grain that their population grew by over 100% over the same time period as the Russians in Russia only managed to grow by about 10%. But talking about internal migration as a cause for this observation would be leading us too far from a nice ethno-nationalist narrative, I suppose...
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Old 13th August 2017, 07:36 AM   #106
Craig B
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
I was careful not to mention genocide... although if you are destroying a group by repatriation or killing, then I think the definition might need widening. The obvious one would be the Nazi attempts to exterminate gays.
It is not always considered reprehensible to eliminate a social group, and that's what Stalin's propaganda relied on. He spoke of "destroying the Kulaks as a class". That terminology doesn't necessarily imply killing them all; in the same way that dispossessing slaveowners or feudal aristocrats removes them as social classes, but doesn't necessarily mean that any or all of them should be killed. (Although such revolutions are usually attended by violence. The American Civil War is an example of that violence.) So if Stalin said, "the Kulaks are being driven from the peasant communes in Ukraine", that might sound not entirely outrageous to foreign socialists learning of the event in these terms.

However, destroying people because of their ethnicity is an entirely different matter, and if Stalin was doing that, he would be concerned to keep it completely secret. There is no ideological excuse that can be presented to justify or mitigate it. So it is reasonable to ask whether Stalin was in reality attacking an ethnic group, in the guise of social reforms. Such an accusation should be carefully examined. On the whole, however, I think he was attacking Ukrainian peasants as peasants, and not specifically as Ukrainians.

He had other ways of suppressing ethnic particularism in Ukraine, and he used them lavishly. The leadership of the Ukrainian SSR was obliterated, not merely decimated, in the Terror purge of 1937/38.
in 1937 Stalin decided to liquidate the entire leadership of the Ukrainian Soviet government and the CPU. […] By June 1938 the top seventeen ministers of the Ukrainian Soviet government were arrested and executed. The prime minister, Liubchenko, committed suicide. Almost the entire Central Committee and Politburo of Ukraine perished. An estimated 37% of the Communist party members in Ukraine - about 170,000 people - were purged

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Old Yesterday, 04:39 PM   #107
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Actually the literature on Collectivization is plentiful. For a start there is Lewin's classic study Russian Peasants and Soviet Power published in 1968.

The book goes through the process by which the Soviet authorities decided to collectivize the Russian peasantry. Basically in an all out effort to subordinate the peasantry to the Russian state.

There is also Nove's An Economic History of the USSR 1917-1991. Where you can read about Stalin's violent assault on the peasantry and his attempt to subordinate them to the state. Stalin's assault provoked fierce peasant resistance including the mass destruction of livestock. And Stalin then deported the so-called Kulaks en-mass and thus deported the section of the peasantry that was most productive. Nove says regarding the famine on pp. 178-179 of his book the following regarding the famine and it's causes:

Quote:
Furthermore, the 1932 harvest seems to have been substantially
overstated in official claims. According to evidence collected by
M. Tauger,45 it was perhaps barely 50 million tons, against the
published 69.7, so that even the reduced procurement quotas left
little for the peasants and their animals, especially in areas of
traditional grain-surpluses, such as the Ukraine, the North Caucasus
and the Lower Volga. So the reduced procurement targets
proved too high.

This led to severe counter-measures, which in turn led to the
great tragedy: the famine of 1933. 'All forces were directed to
procurements.' The law of 7 April 1932, which, as we have seen,
provided for the death penalty for pilfering foodstuffs in
kolkhozes, was used against those who 'with evil intent refused to
deliver grain for [state] procurements. This particularly affected
socially alien groups. Organizers of sabotage in kolkhozy were
handed over to the courts, including degenerate communists and
kulak-supporters among the kolkhoz leadership. In accordance
with the central committee directives, regions which did not
satisfactorily fulfil procurement plans ceased to be supplied with
commodities . . . Illegally distributed or pilfered grain was confiscated.
Several thousands of counter-revolutionaries, kulaks and
saboteurs were deported .. .,46 The party was purged. In the
North Caucasus 43 per cent of all investigated party members
were expelled. There were some appalling excesses. Stalin declared,
in a speech to the politbureau on 27 November 1932, that
coercion was justified against 'certain groups of kolkhozes and
peasants', that they had to be dealt a 'devastating blow'. Kaganovich
announced that rural communists were guilty of being
'pro-kulak, of bourgeois degeneration'.47 Mass arrests went
beyond all bounds; half of local party secretaries in the North
Caucasus were expelled on the orders of Kaganovich. 'All grain
without exception was removed, including seed and fodder, and
even that already issued to peasants as an advance [payment for
workdays].'48 The result was 'an extremely grave food shortage
in many southern areas', and a 'heavy loss of livestock', which
took a long time to repair. Much the same happened in the
Ukraine.
An important cause of the famine was the far to high procurement quotas and the ruthless way the procurements were carried out. Apparently Stalin and of the people around him were convinced the peasants were hiding grain when in fact too much had been taken. It does appear the eventually the Soviet authorities realized that a real crisis was happening but their efforts at relief were ham fisted and brutal.

if Nove is anything to go on Soviet agriculture was badly damaged by this ham fisted collectivization and remained probably the weakest and in many respects most inefficient area of the Soviet economy. Further collectivization created a situation of permanent scarcity in the countryside with the peasants heavily dependent on their small private plots in order to get enough sustenance for survival.

Soviet agriculture remained right to the end of the regime a black hole of inefficiency and waste swallowing up huge amounts of investment but characterized by low productivity, mass waste etc. Oh and the Soviet Union became a grain importing nation rather than a grain exporting one.

The argument that Stalin solved the agricultural problem is nonsense he in effect created one.
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Old Yesterday, 04:59 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Actually, Russians living in Kazakhstan did not just "do better" but got pumped so full of grain that their population grew by over 100% over the same time period as the Russians in Russia only managed to grow by about 10%. But talking about internal migration as a cause for this observation would be leading us too far from a nice ethno-nationalist narrative, I suppose...
Well one could also discuss what happened to the Kazakhs between 1926-1939. The Census of 1926 gave the number of Kazakhs in Kazakhstan has 3,627,612 and in 1939 the number of Kazakhs in Kazakhstan has 2,327,625. Meanwhile the Russians in Kazakhstan had more than doubled until by 1939 they outnumbered the Kazakhs.

The effects of collectivization upon the Kazakhs and the brutal way it was carried out were if not actual genocide genocidal in effect. With large numbers of Kazakhs dying and other fleeing the country.
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Old Today, 10:57 AM   #109
dudalb
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BTW Anne Applebaum, who has written excellent books on the Soviet regime (like the Pulitizer Prize Winning "Gulag" a history of the Soviet Prison camp system) has a book coming out next Month called "Red Famine:Stalin's War On The Ukraine".
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