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Old 13th August 2017, 07:04 AM   #961
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Simply repeating the strawman does not make part of the actual argument.
It is only a strawman if it is intentional.
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Old 13th August 2017, 07:19 AM   #962
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
It is only a strawman if it is intentional.
No, it's a strawman regardless of the intent. I would imagine that people expressing unintentional strawman would want to correct the problem once it had been pointed out.
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Old 13th August 2017, 07:21 AM   #963
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
No, it's a strawman regardless of the intent. I would imagine that people expressing unintentional strawman would want to correct the problem once it had been pointed out.

From rational wiki
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Straw_man

Quote:
A straw man is a logical fallacy which occurs when a debater intentionally misrepresents their opponent's argument as a weaker version, and rebuts said version — rather than their opponent's genuine argument.

Intent is right there
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Old 13th August 2017, 08:51 AM   #964
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I didn't see anyone saying they were wrong because they lost. They were just pointing out they lost. Because it is funny to note they lost.

They are wrong for other reasons.
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Old 13th August 2017, 08:59 AM   #965
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
I didn't see anyone saying they were wrong because they lost. They were just pointing out they lost. Because it is funny to note they lost.

They are wrong for other reasons.
Then it isn't relevant to the conversation.
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Old 13th August 2017, 09:54 AM   #966
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Then it isn't relevant to the conversation.
I tried to argue with myself how that can be relevant. I failed.
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Old 13th August 2017, 10:02 AM   #967
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And even more to come down!

Quote:
The mayor of Lexington, Kentucky, is taking action to remove two Confederate-era monuments from his city's former courthouse after the deadly clashes in Virginia.

Mayor Jim Gray revealed his intention Saturday after the attack in Charlottesville. He said he planned to announce it this week, but the incident prompted him to declare his intentions earlier.

Violent clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters left three people dead in Charlottesville, including a woman killed when a driver plowed into a group of counterprotesters. Dozens more were injured.
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Old 13th August 2017, 10:10 AM   #968
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
The first good steps in getting rid of all government advocacy through statuary.
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Old 14th August 2017, 03:15 AM   #969
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
"John C Breckinridge, who was the 14th Vice President of the US, owned slaves."

So we're taking down statues of significant historical figures because they owned slaves now? Any outcry for the removal of statues of Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, James Madison and George Washington?
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Old 14th August 2017, 03:15 AM   #970
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Originally Posted by Arisia View Post
These folks seem so proud of backing the losers of history... Confederate and Nazi flags fly in equal measure at these events... are they hoping that 'third times the charm' since they have a PotUS who won't confront them for what they are?
Really shows the reason such statues were erected though.
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Old 14th August 2017, 03:18 AM   #971
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
"John C Breckinridge, who was the 14th Vice President of the US, owned slaves."

So we're taking down statues of significant historical figures because they owned slaves now? Any outcry for the removal of statues of Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, James Madison and George Washington?
Of course Franklin became an abolitionist by the time of the revolutionary war. I figure most statues of Ben are of him for actions he did while an abolitionist and not while a slave owner.
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Old 14th August 2017, 03:46 AM   #972
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
"John C Breckinridge, who was the 14th Vice President of the US, owned slaves."

So we're taking down statues of significant historical figures because they owned slaves now? Any outcry for the removal of statues of Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, James Madison and George Washington?
He was the Confederate Secretary of War not just an American historical figured that owned slaves. Odd that the article skipped over that.
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Old 14th August 2017, 04:33 AM   #973
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
"John C Breckinridge, who was the 14th Vice President of the US, owned slaves."

So we're taking down statues of significant historical figures because they owned slaves now? Any outcry for the removal of statues of Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, James Madison and George Washington?
Where's the parallel? Searching.... searching... searching....

Nope. Can't find where Jefferson, Franklin, Madison or Washington took a position of "General" in a secessionist army and then served as their Secretary of WAR at the end of the insurrection.

Did you miss that part or are you saying that he gets a pass because he "used ta not be a traitor".
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Old 14th August 2017, 04:37 AM   #974
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Did you miss that part or are you saying that he gets a pass because he "used ta not be a traitor".
I didn't 'miss that part' because it wasn't there. I was instead addressing the argument raised by the article, that his statue is coming down because he owned slaves.

If we want to bring treason into the discussion, though, how about taking down the statues of the founding fathers due to their treasonously leaving the Empire? Or is a traitor not a traitor when he wins?
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Old 14th August 2017, 04:55 AM   #975
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Where's the parallel? Searching.... searching... searching....

Nope. Can't find where Jefferson, Franklin, Madison or Washington took a position of "General" in a secessionist army and then served as their Secretary of WAR at the end of the insurrection.

Did you miss that part or are you saying that he gets a pass because he "used ta not be a traitor".
Well Washington did that, but it wasn't a war centered on the preservation and expansion of slavery.
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Old 14th August 2017, 05:49 AM   #976
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
I didn't 'miss that part' because it wasn't there. I was instead addressing the argument raised by the article, that his statue is coming down because he owned slaves.

If we want to bring treason into the discussion, though, how about taking down the statues of the founding fathers due to their treasonously leaving the Empire? Or is a traitor not a traitor when he wins?
This idiotic gotcha defense again? Those who ask this might want to explain how they also only support selective revolutionaries like Lee and Jefferson Davis. Or were you a big supporter of Ho Chi Minh, too? The Ayatollah? That's what the straw man is tantamount to. Obviously, one supports the causes one agrees with.
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Old 14th August 2017, 05:51 AM   #977
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
I didn't 'miss that part' because it wasn't there. I was instead addressing the argument raised by the article, that his statue is coming down because he owned slaves.

If we want to bring treason into the discussion, though, how about taking down the statues of the founding fathers due to their treasonously leaving the Empire? Or is a traitor not a traitor when he wins?
If England decides to take down any statues of treasonous Colonials, I will not object.
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Old 14th August 2017, 05:56 AM   #978
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Well Washington did that, but it wasn't a war centered on the preservation and expansion of slavery.
Yes, and that's my point. We support the insurrections and revolutions that we believe in. It's not a blanket free pass, e.g. /= all revolutions are good. I kinda didn't support Franco. And it's not a blanket condemnation, e.g. /= all insurrections are bad. Again, the Sepoy Mutiny is probably something I side with. (I ain't that old - I wasn't alive for either of them.)
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Old 14th August 2017, 06:16 AM   #979
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Where's the parallel? Searching.... searching... searching....

Nope. Can't find where Jefferson, Franklin, Madison or Washington took a position of "General" in a secessionist army and then served as their Secretary of WAR at the end of the insurrection.

Did you miss that part or are you saying that he gets a pass because he "used ta not be a traitor".
Jefferson was a rapist but that's a different issue regarding slavery.
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Old 14th August 2017, 06:27 AM   #980
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
If England decides to take down any statues of treasonous Colonials, I will not object.
There shouldn't be any government statues, period.
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Old 14th August 2017, 06:50 AM   #981
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
This idiotic gotcha defense again? Those who ask this might want to explain how they also only support selective revolutionaries like Lee and Jefferson Davis. Or were you a big supporter of Ho Chi Minh, too? The Ayatollah? That's what the straw man is tantamount to. Obviously, one supports the causes one agrees with.
It isn't about whether we support the (alleged) insurrection, but whether we support the statues being taken down. That article clearly said the John C Breckinridge statue should be removed because he owned slaves. As Stako very kindly pointed out, there's more to it than was presented in the article, but it still leaves us wondering whether the writer would support the removal of the founding fathers' statues for the exact same reasons he espouses for the removal of John C Breckinridge's.
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Old 14th August 2017, 06:58 AM   #982
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
It isn't about whether we support the (alleged) insurrection, but whether we support the statues being taken down. That article clearly said the John C Breckinridge statue should be removed because he owned slaves. As Stako very kindly pointed out, there's more to it than was presented in the article, but it still leaves us wondering whether the writer would support the removal of the founding fathers' statues for the exact same reasons he espouses for the removal of John C Breckinridge's.
The article does not say that owning slaves is the reason that Breckinridge's statue is being removed. That's your strawman. The mayor explicitly states in his tweets they are being removed because they are Confederate statues.
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Old 14th August 2017, 06:58 AM   #983
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
It isn't about whether we support the (alleged) insurrection, but whether we support the statues being taken down. That article clearly said the John C Breckinridge statue should be removed because he owned slaves. As Stako very kindly pointed out, there's more to it than was presented in the article, but it still leaves us wondering whether the writer would support the removal of the founding fathers' statues for the exact same reasons he espouses for the removal of John C Breckinridge's.
If you'd like to discuss this writer's opinions, I'm sure you could make a thread about that.
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Old 14th August 2017, 07:03 AM   #984
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
It isn't about whether we support the (alleged) insurrection, but whether we support the statues being taken down. That article clearly said the John C Breckinridge statue should be removed because he owned slaves. As Stako very kindly pointed out, there's more to it than was presented in the article, but it still leaves us wondering whether the writer would support the removal of the founding fathers' statues for the exact same reasons he espouses for the removal of John C Breckinridge's.
The Mayor's Tweet says they are taking action to remove "Confederate statues"
Quote:
I am taking action to relocate the Confederate statues. We have thoroughly examined this issue, and heard from many of our citizens.
I think you took the "owned slaves" out of context. Certainly nothing in the article says that was the reason for the statue to be removed.
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Old 14th August 2017, 07:12 AM   #985
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
It isn't about whether we support the (alleged) insurrection, but whether we support the statues being taken down. That article clearly said the John C Breckinridge statue should be removed because he owned slaves. As Stako very kindly pointed out, there's more to it than was presented in the article, but it still leaves us wondering whether the writer would support the removal of the founding fathers' statues for the exact same reasons he espouses for the removal of John C Breckinridge's.
If the article said, "let's jump off a bridge" would you do so. Sadly, the article - like many articles - is not well-written. The mayor clearly said he was removing CONFEDERATE statues. Perhaps you could've taken that as a clue. That might have led one to delve a little farther before opening their yap. Unless, of course, one has an agenda.

Hilited: There's that straw man again. It doesn't leave us wondering at all. It's been addressed. We support the revolutions and insurrections we agree with. What the author's opinions have to do with it, I'm not sure. It's an article on the actions of a mayor. Maybe he had a longer sentence or paragraph and the editors trimmed for space. Maybe he's a BLM supporter. It doesn't matter. The question is why YOU give a rat's ass about the statues. Those of us who are in favor of removing them to "Museums of the Sociology of the Southern Apologists" have stated our piece. You're just picking holes to pick holes.
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Old 14th August 2017, 07:12 AM   #986
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
The article does not say that owning slaves is the reason that Breckinridge's statue is being removed.
Well, it was certainly heavily implied, else why bring it up?
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Old 14th August 2017, 07:15 AM   #987
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
Well, it was certainly heavily implied, else why bring it up?
If it was only implied, why did you originally say "the article clearly said"?
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Old 14th August 2017, 07:17 AM   #988
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
Well, it was certainly heavily implied, else why bring it up?
Now that you've had your misperceptions addressed, you agree that the statues should be removed, right?
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Old 14th August 2017, 07:23 AM   #989
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Now that you've had your misperceptions addressed, you agree that the statues should be removed, right?
Personally, no. I don't see the value in doing so.
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Old 14th August 2017, 07:26 AM   #990
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
If it was only implied, why did you originally say "the article clearly said"?
Some of you guys would make great copywriters for insurance terms and conditions.

If you read the article, you will see that the author gave his slave-owning as a reason for the statue's removal, and didn't offer the far more significant (though in my view, still insufficient) information that he was also the Confederate Secretary of War. And that's what I reacted to when I commented that he was hardly the only slave-owner celebrated in statues.
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Old 14th August 2017, 07:34 AM   #991
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
Some of you guys would make great copywriters for insurance terms and conditions.

If you read the article, you will see that the author gave his slave-owning as a reason for the statue's removal, and didn't offer the far more significant (though in my view, still insufficient) information that he was also the Confederate Secretary of War. And that's what I reacted to when I commented that he was hardly the only slave-owner celebrated in statues.
I haven't even read the article, I was just curious as to your thinking process going from stating something was "clearly stated" to agreeing just a couple of posts later that it was only "implied".
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Old 14th August 2017, 07:38 AM   #992
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
I haven't even read the article, I was just curious as to your thinking process going from stating something was "clearly stated" to agreeing just a couple of posts later that it was only "implied".
Maybe you should. On reflection, I should probably have gone for 'clearly implied' in the first place rather than 'clearly said', as the slave-owning justification for the removal of the statue wasn't attributed to the Mayor. But as it's clear the author has making that connection, we're getting very picky now.
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Old 14th August 2017, 09:21 AM   #993
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
Maybe you should. On reflection, I should probably have gone for 'clearly implied' in the first place rather than 'clearly said', as the slave-owning justification for the removal of the statue wasn't attributed to the Mayor. But as it's clear the author has making that connection, we're getting very picky now.

You decide that the important part of the article isn't what it reported that the mayor actually said, but what you imagine the writer implied, and you have the chutzpah to accuse other people of being "picky"?

Classic.
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Old 14th August 2017, 10:55 AM   #994
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The Confederate statue in my home town was just removed today with very little fanfare. There were a lot of protests over the last year about it, but all in all, it went out with barely a whimper. Good riddance.

https://www.facebook.com/Gainesville...Sc8qXcJulfwspA
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Old 14th August 2017, 01:53 PM   #995
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Originally Posted by foophil View Post
The Confederate statue in my home town was just removed today with very little fanfare. There were a lot of protests over the last year about it, but all in all, it went out with barely a whimper. Good riddance.

https://www.facebook.com/Gainesville...Sc8qXcJulfwspA

Every little bit helps.

This one's gonna be the toughie ...

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Old 14th August 2017, 02:15 PM   #996
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Every little bit helps.

This one's gonna be the toughie ...
Yes, being in a cemetery surrounded by graves of Confederate soldiers and not celebrating any particular Confederate leader makes it unlikely that it will ever be removed. I am not in favor of removing it because of the reasons I listed.
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Old 14th August 2017, 02:15 PM   #997
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So odd that, with every Confederate statue that is removed, the names, dates, and historical facts of the Confederacy aren't changing or being "forgotten".
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Old 14th August 2017, 02:17 PM   #998
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
So odd that, with every Confederate statue that is removed, the names, dates, and historical facts of the Confederacy aren't changing or being "forgotten".
I don't understand your post.
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Old 14th August 2017, 02:31 PM   #999
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I'm afraid you will have to settle for not understanding, because if anything has been proven in this thread it's that I'm not adequate to the task of clarifying anything to your satisfaction.
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Old 14th August 2017, 02:32 PM   #1000
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
"John C Breckinridge, who was the 14th Vice President of the US, owned slaves."

So we're taking down statues of significant historical figures because they owned slaves now? Any outcry for the removal of statues of Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, James Madison and George Washington?
Breckinridge also went south after Fort Sumter, became a Confederate General, and Seceratary of War of the Confederacy. He was a traitor as well as a slaveholder.
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