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Tags assault incidents , Charlottesville riot , protest incidents , Virginia incidents , white supremacists

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Old 13th August 2017, 09:24 AM   #321
Tony
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
There is an area between "celebrating" and "purging." Stop pretending there isn't.
You should take your own advice.
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Old 13th August 2017, 09:24 AM   #322
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Originally Posted by C_Felix View Post
This is akin to when people call #44, Barack Hussein Obama.
Because specious association to Saddam Hussein makes #44 bad somehow.

Or something like that.

And, when people do that, I remind them, I inform them that "Hussein" translates to "blessed."
Except that the association between the name of the month "July" and the figure of Julius Caesar isn't specious.
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Old 13th August 2017, 09:32 AM   #323
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Originally Posted by Tony View Post
You should take your own advice.
Okay.

Nothing being discussed here, either in real world context (the removal of Confederate Statues, the renaming of buildings named after Confederate leaders, etc) or theoretical (changing the name of a month) would lead to these events being purged from history Brave New World style and the suggestion that it would is insane.

You think the only reason people know who Julius Ceaser was is because of Jul? Hell do you even think most people know that July is named after Julius Ceaser?
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Old 13th August 2017, 09:47 AM   #324
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
True plenty people are standing up to Antifa now
Yes, plenty of Nazis. They recently murdered one with a speeding vehicle.
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Old 13th August 2017, 09:49 AM   #325
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
Godwin violation reported.


The fact that thousands of white nationalist- neo nazis were walking through the streets, many wearing MAGA hats...That David Duke talks about Trump like a saviour... That Bannon is a white nationalist...That Gorka IS a nazi sympathizer... Ok, so, NOT Godwin's Law? It isn't like we were debating recipes and I dropped a , ''But, Hitler!!''

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Old 13th August 2017, 09:52 AM   #326
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
Okay.

Nothing being discussed here, either in real world context (the removal of Confederate Statues, the renaming of buildings named after Confederate leaders, etc) or theoretical (changing the name of a month) would lead to these events being purged from history Brave New World style and the suggestion that it would is insane.

You think the only reason people know who Julius Ceaser was is because of Jul? Hell do you even think most people know that July is named after Julius Ceaser?
Tony has a point. There are no monuments to Mitsuo Fuchida in Hawaii, and now no one knows what happened at Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941.
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Old 13th August 2017, 09:56 AM   #327
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Apparently not.
Based on what?

Quote:
Because you were using it.
I'm asking you to demonstrate it, not simply repeat the same claim.

Quote:
No your point really doesn't stand at all. Even if we accept your contention, then it's still just a modern form of this:

"But how can you be against feudalism when you're wearing rags made under feudalism? Ha, checkmate, you *********** peasant! I'm such a wise man!"
This isn't a response to my question.

Quote:
I have.
Where? You're named a fallacy, then left it at that. That's not making a point. Your statements are ridiculous. Either support them or admit that they are unfounded.
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Old 13th August 2017, 09:57 AM   #328
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Why didn't the Christian community of Maumee, Ohio say anything to federal authorities about the radicalized young man in their midst?
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Old 13th August 2017, 10:01 AM   #329
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
He says he was maced, no mention of any arrest. The hair of the guy getting arrested doesn't look the same.
It is exactly the same hairstyle. It looks to be a different color, though.
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Old 13th August 2017, 11:19 AM   #330
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
I fully appreciate that this is a sensitive matter. It's partly due to the after effects of the American civil war. Robert E Lee was a great Confederate General. You can't just airbrush these people out of history by demolishing their statues. Have statues of Lincoln and Grant and Sherman been demolished?

There is a similar sort of problem in Bristol UK at the moment where black people are urging the Local Authority to demolish the statue of the extremely rich slave owner hundreds of years ago, Edward Colston, who had a couple of schools named after him, and alms houses and a Concert hall They want the names changed, besides closing most of the libraries. Call me old-fashioned but leave it as it is I say.

There was another controversy when the Queen Mother unveiled a statue a few years ago to 'Bomber Harris' of RAF Bomber Command during the second world war. I think it's having a sense of history to have such a statue.

This is from the internet about the matter:
You do realize that if this was merely an academic argument about the merits of building and maintaining monuments to people who might, in the past, have done things that are seen as terrible in the present no one would've died or been wounded today (except perhaps the cops who died, if that helicopter was going to crash anyways).

This wasn't really about those confederate statues rather it's about white supremacists inserting themselves into a debate and controversy in order to drum up public visibility.

They are so protective about their "heritage" and "history" simply because they view the slave fueled white-supremacist past not as something worthwhile to remember but rather something that's important to reestablish right now. At least they might argue that the past state of affairs is a good enough reason to maintain racist beliefs and attitudes in the present.
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Old 13th August 2017, 11:34 AM   #331
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
What I'll say is this: at least someone is standing up to these fascist pricks.
Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
True plenty people are standing up to Antifa now

I'd like to think the implication in your response to Travis was unintentional, an unfortunate accident of your lack of wisdom and care. However, the frequency with which you make such errors can not be ignored.

Your dedication to defending the "wrong side of history" is... well... something. You do yourself and your cause no favors.

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Old 13th August 2017, 11:36 AM   #332
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
Even Drudge is calling out the white nationalists.

https://mobile.twitter.com/lrozen/st...53459465547776
Judge Janine on Fox had an interesting debate between two talking heads. One called the white nationalists out and the counter argument was that there were too few of them to bother with.

She sided with the calling them out.
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Old 13th August 2017, 11:39 AM   #333
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
Why didn't the Christian community of Maumee, Ohio say anything to federal authorities about the radicalized young man in their midst?
One of his high school teachers said his white supremacist views did get him in some trouble at school.

Which made the interview with his mother (who had no idea) all the more bizarre.
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Old 13th August 2017, 11:42 AM   #334
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
You do realize that if this was merely an academic argument about the merits of building and maintaining monuments to people who might, in the past, have done things that are seen as terrible in the present no one would've died or been wounded today (except perhaps the cops who died, if that helicopter was going to crash anyways).

This wasn't really about those confederate statues rather it's about white supremacists inserting themselves into a debate and controversy in order to drum up public visibility.

They are so protective about their "heritage" and "history" simply because they view the slave fueled white-supremacist past not as something worthwhile to remember but rather something that's important to reestablish right now. At least they might argue that the past state of affairs is a good enough reason to maintain racist beliefs and attitudes in the present.
Indeed, if as proposed by many of their defenders that these statues are in support of "Southern heritage" and not "slavery" why are they so very special for so many white supremacists and Nazis? I understand that a political position is not invalidated simply because a few scum also favor it, but if one looks at the bulk of the statements made in support of these Civil War monuments one realizes why white supremacists feel so much at home in the keep/restore the statues movement. Clearly the heritage alluded to had slavery at its center, and the soldiers being honored are honored expressly because they fought to support slavery.
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Old 13th August 2017, 11:46 AM   #335
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
One of his high school teachers said his white supremacist views did get him in some trouble at school.

Which made the interview with his mother (who had no idea) all the more bizarre.
That's likely because the mother is steeped in it herself, so doesn't notice it, don't you think?

"Well, yeah, he hates black people, but that doesn't mean he's racist, does it? I mean, we all do to some extent. Sure, he's more boisterous about it, but it's nothing no one else is feeling."
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Old 13th August 2017, 11:52 AM   #336
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
That's likely because the mother is steeped in it herself, so doesn't notice it, don't you think?

"Well, yeah, he hates black people, but that doesn't mean he's racist, does it? I mean, we all do to some extent. Sure, he's more boisterous about it, but it's nothing no one else is feeling."
Hard to say, didn't see enough of the mother to know.
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Old 13th August 2017, 11:57 AM   #337
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
That's likely because the mother is steeped in it herself, so doesn't notice it, don't you think?

I don't know about "likely". It's certainly possible, but so is her simply "overlooking" some of her precious baby boy's more extreme views.
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Old 13th August 2017, 12:04 PM   #338
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Originally Posted by Cl1mh4224rd View Post
I don't know about "likely". It's certainly possible, but so is her simply "overlooking" some of her precious baby boy's more extreme views.
It will be interesting if we do or do not find evidence of premeditation.
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Old 13th August 2017, 12:04 PM   #339
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
Godwin violation reported.

Interesting question.

Is it still a Godwin if they really are Nazis?
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Old 13th August 2017, 12:06 PM   #340
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
... White Nationalists don't hate. Maybe Nazis and KKK do but White Nationalists want White ethnostates. That's all. No hate required for that. Condemning White Christians who want an ethnostate for their people is like condemning Zionists who want an ethnostate for their people.
There are several "ethnostates" called "Europe" from whence these "non-hating nationalists" all originally hail. Why shouldn't they simply shove off? Curiously, one of the chants by the alt-right demonstrators was "We will not be replaced," and one of the claims was of "cultural genocide." So, when conquering whites invade, all is OK, but it is certain genocide if... OMG! TV is in color! No, no hate there, the hypocrisy is a mere artifact of vacuous argument, that's all.

Fancy thinking there, boys.
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Old 13th August 2017, 12:09 PM   #341
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Judge Janine on Fox had an interesting debate between two talking heads. One called the white nationalists out and the counter argument was that there were too few of them to bother with.

She sided with the calling them out.
That's kind of what puzzles me about The PDJT's reluctance to call them out. Even in its group entirety, there can't be that many of them to alienate. Can there?
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Old 13th August 2017, 12:10 PM   #342
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
There are several "ethnostates" called "Europe" from whence these "non-hating nationalists" all originally hail. Why shouldn't they simply shove off? Curiously, one of the chants by the alt-right demonstrators was "We will not be replaced," and one of the claims was of "cultural genocide." So, when conquering whites invade, all is OK, but it is certain genocide if... OMG! TV is in color! No, no hate there, the hypocrisy is a mere artifact of vacuous argument, that's all.

Fancy thinking there, boys.
My primary guess would be if you had to assign an ethnostate status to the US, the answer will be white. Which then makes the ideal test how they feel about kicking out white south Africans.
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Old 13th August 2017, 12:12 PM   #343
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Interesting question.

Is it still a Godwin if they really are Nazis?
The answer is, no.

Godwin's Law (that given enough time, a thread will have a posting where somebody's accused of being a Nazi) does not apply to threads that are actually about Nazis. Since this thread is about actual Nazis marching in the streets, it can't be Godwinned.
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Old 13th August 2017, 12:13 PM   #344
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
I don't think ANTIFA is for anything that would allow them to organize into anything more than a counter protest group. And hell no marketing isn't the only difference. We're talking about Nazis that are killing people.
Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
The ANTIFA may be misguided. The Jackboots are scum.
Yes
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Old 13th August 2017, 12:15 PM   #345
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
One of his high school teachers said his white supremacist views did get him in some trouble at school.

Which made the interview with his mother (who had no idea) all the more bizarre.
Well, not bizarre so much as pointless.

"I raised a Nazi sociopath," is not something one would admit to, even if one realizes it's true.

"Idiot went and started a race war. I taught him, we're not ready yet. The plan is to start the Purge the day after Trump's third inauguration in 2025."
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Old 13th August 2017, 12:18 PM   #346
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Judge Janine on Fox had an interesting debate between two talking heads. One called the white nationalists out and the counter argument was that there were too few of them to bother with.
Almost a false dilemma, unless you think that "calling them out" is bothering with them.
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Old 13th August 2017, 12:23 PM   #347
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
Almost a false dilemma, unless you think that "calling them out" is bothering with them.

Uhh... That's kind of implied by "not worth bothering with" being offered as a counter to "call them out".
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Old 13th August 2017, 12:51 PM   #348
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Sorry, but I cannot sign on to support the Antifa as long as they welcome the Anarchists and the Hard Line Marxist.Just because Hitler was Evil does not mean I have to become a Stalinist.
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Old 13th August 2017, 12:52 PM   #349
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
That's kind of what puzzles me about The PDJT's reluctance to call them out. Even in its group entirety, there can't be that many of them to alienate. Can there?
He does not want to offend his alt right base.....
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Old 13th August 2017, 12:54 PM   #350
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
It will be interesting if we do or do not find evidence of premeditation.
According to the witness accounts, and the half dozen videos, this nonsense, maybe it wasn't premeditated or wasn't purposeful, are a waste of thread space.


Reminds me of people arguing beating Rodney King wasn't what it looked like.
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Old 13th August 2017, 12:59 PM   #351
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
That's kind of what puzzles me about The PDJT's reluctance to call them out. Even in its group entirety, there can't be that many of them to alienate. Can there?
Bannon, Miller, Gorka, ...
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Old 13th August 2017, 01:01 PM   #352
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Sorry, but I cannot sign on to support the Antifa as long as they welcome the Anarchists and the Hard Line Marxist.Just because Hitler was Evil does not mean I have to become a Stalinist.

I'm pretty sure that's not a requirement for, or consequence of, supporting them anyway, so...

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Old 13th August 2017, 01:21 PM   #353
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
According to the witness accounts, and the half dozen videos, this nonsense, maybe it wasn't premeditated or wasn't purposeful, are a waste of thread space.


Reminds me of people arguing beating Rodney King wasn't what it looked like.
You can't make that jump that he necessarily planned the crime. We don't have circumstantial evidence like a trunk rental. He could have decided at that moment.
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Old 13th August 2017, 02:17 PM   #354
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
You'd think with all the violence and drama in the news that everyone in the US have lost their minds. But when I walk down the street, or go out somewhere, I don't see it.
me either, but my brother in law, who is a cop, sees a bit of it every day since he's back with the patrol/uniformed division after a vacation in narco.
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
When two groups of protestors begin physically fighting each other, yes, it is time to end the protest. Nothing to do with free speech.
Yeah, once the fighting starts, time to shut it down
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
The license plate is clearly visible and they have arrested the driver.
Guess he'll get to find out how much fun it is to get his 15 minutes of fame .. or infamy.
Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
The only difference is marketing.
Hmm, this whole news event strikes me as surreal. I got my Atlantic Montly on Wednesday and read the article in antifa out on the west coast the next day. It informs my view that the sickness in our political system is getting more dire, not healing. This latest madness is a symptom of that. KKK and their ilk have been using 1st amendment to air their malodorous views for decades, and usually they get either counter protested, or ignored. Now and again their trolling ends up with violence. I suppose this is going to happen more frequently now. (Based on the conclusion in the article).
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
The Governor of Virginia just blasted the white supremists...something that the Orange Fungus did not do.
Yeah, he's from Virginia, and Trump is a (rule 10) from New York. How is this a surprise? My niece and my younger brother both wen to UVa,
in Charlottesville. Needless to say I am not pleased to see what's going on there, and that someone decided to troll the world with this.
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
McAullife pointed out how sick that his happened in the Home of Thomas Jefferson, one of the founders of democracy.
And a rabid anti federalist. (Read Chernow's Hamilton for an interesting view on Jefferson/Hamilton rivalry). You might be surprised to find out how ofter WN's quote Jefferson, about the tree of liberty being watered with the blood of ....
Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
I'd guess it's "linked" because the helicopter was there appropriately observing, and likely recording, the activity. The crash was almost certainly an accident.
Yeah. 7 miles away. Am in touch with someone who knew the pilot. (I didn't).
Originally Posted by zorro99 View Post
I didn't see any communists today.
There's a silver lining to this cloud, eh?

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
You realise that 300K is like a 10th of the population of the US? This stat seems to have come from the same orifice your 40 Countries attacked by the US since the Korean War came from.
1/1000th. That's arithmetic, not even math.
Originally Posted by Travis View Post
When the states refused to segregate Eisenhower sent in the Army. I really don't see Trump sending in troops to stop fascists when local police aren't doing anything about them.
The news reports suggest to me that cops were out and about. Not sure what you are getting at there, beyond President Trump not being helpful.
Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
I fully appreciate that this is a sensitive matter.
Then I suggest, henri, that you consider putting a sock in it.
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Old 13th August 2017, 02:26 PM   #355
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Originally Posted by Cl1mh4224rd View Post
I'm pretty sure that's not a requirement for, or consequence of, supporting them anyway, so...
I refuse to support authoritarian movements of any kind,period. They are all bad news.
That is what is scary. The left might now become as radicalized as the right,and start going down the same road..to dictatorship.
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Old 13th August 2017, 02:36 PM   #356
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Originally Posted by Beerina View Post
I am triggered by the lack of an Oxford comma.
There's no Oxford comma missing in the post to which you're responding. There's a garden variety comma missing, but not one of the Oxford sort.
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Old 13th August 2017, 02:49 PM   #357
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
That's kind of what puzzles me about The PDJT's reluctance to call them out. Even in its group entirety, there can't be that many of them to alienate. Can there?
Tough to gauge numbers, but one thing I've noted is that a lot of the guys on the alt-right tend to be very thin-skinned and hypersensitive (essentially the conservative equivalent of liberal snowflakes) and tend to be very quick to assume that any real or imagined slight in their general direction is a grave insult. See the recent whining about the Statue of Liberty cover on Vogue. A lot of alt-right guys who might not embrace the label "white supremacist" for themselves would still see a denunciation of white supremacists as an affront to their own group.
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Old 13th August 2017, 02:52 PM   #358
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I refuse to support authoritarian movements of any kind,period. They are all bad news.
That is what is scary. The left might now become as radicalized as the right,and start going down the same road..to dictatorship.
100% agreed.

The problem is that the moderates, in fighting against one kind of extremism (left or right) often find themselves siding the other kind. That's bad news one way or another.

The way to fight extremism is to stay moderate.
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Old 13th August 2017, 02:57 PM   #359
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Anybody else surprised that Skeptic Tank has not shown up in this thread yet?
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Old 13th August 2017, 02:58 PM   #360
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
100% agreed.

The problem is that the moderates, in fighting against one kind of extremism (left or right) often find themselves siding the other kind. That's bad news one way or another.

The way to fight extremism is to stay moderate.
Moderates should stay moderates in their opinions, but more militant in presenting them to the public.They need to as willing to campaign for their beliefs as the radicals are.
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