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Tags general discussion , holocaust , holocaust denial , World War II history

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Old 28th February 2015, 05:50 AM   #41
sadhatter
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Originally Posted by MaxMurx View Post
The point is that the video shows Ernst Zündel and other deniers being rigorously persecuted. Pro Holocausters do not speak up against that unusual practice, which means: they support it. In this case a discussion is not a discussion, science is not science. Thesis without anti thesis cannot lead to sythesis, is unscientific, if not unethical. Everybody being involved in such a pseudo discussion behaves this unethical way - deniers as well as all others. First persecution has to be removed everywhere. Then discussions can be called discussions.
In my experience persecution can be summed up as people, especially academics disagreeing with them.

They seem top have this mindset that because the holocaust is accepted that responding to their claim is persecution, they don't want a two way conversation, they want to just make a statement and let whatever fish bite, bite.

And when this doesn't happen, they claim persecution.
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Old 28th February 2015, 07:16 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Saggy View Post
I cannot find the holohoax denial forum?

Is discussion of the hoax still allowed?

How do I find it?

For those interested, the best intro to the subject is provided by 'The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, the Case Against the Presumed Extermination of European Jewry' by Northwestern prof Arthur Butz. This is a great book, every skeptic should read it.
Can't imagine why Saggy would come here to peddle that nonsense. He can't really think too many people here would be interested in the dishonest ranting of some Hitler hugger.
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Old 28th February 2015, 09:56 AM   #43
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I like the description of him as a Northwestern Professor.

While he is that it is interesting to read how the University, which gave him tenure has disavowed his,

Quote:
Butz is a Holocaust denier who has made similar assertions previously. His latest statement, like his earlier writings and pronouncements, is a contemptible insult to all decent and feeling people. While I hope everyone understands that Butz's opinions are his own and in no way represent the views of the University or me personally, his reprehensible opinions on this issue are an embarrassment to Northwestern.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Butz

by the way he is an associate professor of electrical engineering
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Old 28th February 2015, 10:08 PM   #44
Matthew Ellard
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Originally Posted by Saggy View Post
Is discussion of the hoax still allowed?
Absolutely. However, once the the gas chamber at Treblinka II had been excavated, further discussion seemed pointless and the remaining members of the cult faded away or joined other cults.

Perhaps we can now discuss some of the various claims you have made over the years and apply them to the new existing evidence?


Perhaps you would enjoy discussing some of Eric Hunt's propaganda videos to discuss their "accuracy". The Treblinka propaganda video would be a good start. Have you watched Eric's video from start to finish? ( I can't find many deniers who have or who are willing to talk about Eric's videos, once Eric became the "new Richard Krege" )


Perhaps you would enjoy a discussion on "Revisionism". Apparently "Revisionists" have the goal of revising established history based on new evidence. I would ask you if you are demanding that Eric Hunt fixes the clear errors in his video's facts. Is Eric still a "Revisionist" for refusing to do so? Have you discussed this with him on CODOH?
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Old 1st March 2015, 08:01 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard View Post
Perhaps you would enjoy discussing some of Eric Hunt's propaganda videos to discuss their "accuracy". The Treblinka propaganda video would be a good start. Have you watched Eric's video from start to finish? ( I can't find many deniers who have or who are willing to talk about Eric's videos, once Eric became the "new Richard Krege" )
Speaking of, did Krege ever release his "report", or are we still left with a handful of unconnected images that mean nothing and his word that the rest blows the whole thing wide open?
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Old 1st March 2015, 06:20 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard View Post
Absolutely. However, once the the gas chamber at Treblinka II had been excavated, further discussion seemed pointless and the remaining members of the cult faded away or joined other cults.

Perhaps we can now discuss some of the various claims you have made over the years and apply them to the new existing evidence?


Perhaps you would enjoy discussing some of Eric Hunt's propaganda videos to discuss their "accuracy". The Treblinka propaganda video would be a good start. Have you watched Eric's video from start to finish? ( I can't find many deniers who have or who are willing to talk about Eric's videos, once Eric became the "new Richard Krege" )


Perhaps you would enjoy a discussion on "Revisionism". Apparently "Revisionists" have the goal of revising established history based on new evidence. I would ask you if you are demanding that Eric Hunt fixes the clear errors in his video's facts. Is Eric still a "Revisionist" for refusing to do so? Have you discussed this with him on CODOH?
Matthew could you be so kind and link to the report on the excavation at T-II please?

TIA
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Old 3rd March 2015, 08:29 PM   #47
Matthew Ellard
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Originally Posted by Hans View Post
Matthew could you be so kind and link to the report on the excavation at T-II please?
OK

Preliminary Results of the Survey at Treblinka II (the extermination camp)

https://blogs.staffs.ac.uk/archaeolo...mination-camp/

Preliminary Results of the Survey at Treblinka I (the labour camp) and the Execution Site
https://blogs.staffs.ac.uk/archaeolo...xecution-site/
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Old 3rd March 2015, 08:51 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Nonpareil View Post
Speaking of, did Krege ever release his "report", or are we still left with a handful of unconnected images that mean nothing and his word that the rest blows the whole thing wide open?
There was never any paper at all released by Richard Krege. There is a "Krege report" by the Barnes Review, but this appears to be fake as it has so many technical errors concerning the soil at Treblinka

"It (GPR) is based on modern radar technology permitting the analysis of the composition of soil to a depth of 30 meters"
http://barnesreview.org/wp/archives/280

Das Gerät kann, abhängig von der Einstellung, Veränderungen in der Beschaffenheit des Erdbodens bis zu 30 Metern Tiefe finden.
http://vho.org/VffG/2000/1/Krege62-64.html

(It is actually only 4 to 5 metres at Treblinka.)

Sturdy Colls: Unfortunately no. The survey technology does not allow us to go to certain depths. I know that it is over 4 meters.

It is hard to work out what he actually did. No university was engaged to analyse the raw GPR data, if there was any GPR data anyway. The still image that was released "suggests" under ground disturbances, which Krege denied. He claimed to have also taken soil samples, however as he fled Poland on his brother's passport, I'm skeptical he kept any soil samples at all. Once Sturdy Colls had located 11 of the mass graves at Treblinka II, Krege was exposed as lying.
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File Type: jpg Krege-GPR.jpg (29.9 KB, 5 views)
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Old 3rd March 2015, 09:53 PM   #49
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Holocaust Denial is not a conspiracy theory. It is racism. It is a well-documented historical fact and there is even evidence of Hitler's desire to cover-it-up with the acquiescence of the German population. This black propaganda originated somewhere, and it certainly isn't born out of facts, it is a complete forgery and divorce from any coherent historical legitimacy. Two suspects come to mind -- the Nazis themselves or the Soviets.
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Old 4th March 2015, 02:45 AM   #50
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Krege...



Lawnmower man.

One of our forum pals who makes disaster ware (windmills with vanes shaped like swastikas etc.) was on the computer wireless. The Carolyn Yeager gargling white racist radio paranoia hour. He talked about the "Krege report" and how the people from Holocaust Controversies, "who took over one of the forums that he used to belong to" ( wonder what one that is ;-) ) said then whenever he mentioned Treblinka and used to demand to be shown the Krege report, they laughed at him. He asks Germar Rudolf about it (Yeager's guest on the show) and finds that it actually turned out that it never existed!

Rudolf says that the reason it doesn't exist though is that Richard Craigie did not publish it because he was scared of something. All perfectly in keeping with the miasma of fear and anxiety that Carolyn peddles...or incompetence.

The report (unalysed GPR data) is still on 2 CD ROMs, apparently. It was apparently mailed out to numerous University departments. None of whom ever said they had received it. Or the data,That is according to Toben of the Adelaide Institute who funded the expedition to the camp in order to definitely prove that there were no mass graves at Treblinka.

Revisionists may tell a different tale..
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Old 4th March 2015, 06:13 PM   #51
Matthew Ellard
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Originally Posted by Jango View Post
Holocaust Denial is not a conspiracy theory. It is racism. It is a well-documented historical fact and there is even evidence of Hitler's desire to cover-it-up with the acquiescence of the German population. This black propaganda originated somewhere, and it certainly isn't born out of facts, it is a complete forgery and divorce from any coherent historical legitimacy. Two suspects come to mind -- the Nazis themselves or the Soviets.
The Soviets?

Please explain how "the Soviets" ordered German SS senior officers to dig up and cremate all the bodies at Treblinka? In your own words please.
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Old 5th March 2015, 07:46 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by MaxMurx View Post
The point is that the video shows Ernst Zündel and other deniers being rigorously persecuted. Pro Holocausters do not speak up against that unusual practice, which means: they support it.
Zundel and his ideas have been properly debunked. When he persisted in his false claims, and doubled down on racist agitation Canada PROSECUTED him (which allowed him to attempt to prove in a court that what he was doing was not promoting hatred - he failed), whereupon he was sent back to his home country. It was Zundel's choice to break German law.

Quote:
In this case a discussion is not a discussion, science is not science. Thesis without anti thesis cannot lead to sythesis, is unscientific, if not unethical.
Sounds rather Marxist.

However, thesis and antithesis does not necessarily lead to synthesis - in the case of in question here, denial of historical events, the interplay leads only to the elimination of the antithesis as a valid point, leaving the thesis.

Quote:
Everybody being involved in such a pseudo discussion behaves this unethical way - deniers as well as all others. First persecution has to be removed everywhere. Then discussions can be called discussions.
The problem is that the deniers have not been prepared to accept that their antithesis may be incorrect - namely that the Nazi regime was not engaged in deliberate genocide and mass murder.
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Old 5th March 2015, 09:51 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard View Post
The Soviets?

Please explain how "the Soviets" ordered German SS senior officers to dig up and cremate all the bodies at Treblinka? In your own words please.
I may be wrong, but I believe Jango is referring to Holocaust denialism, not the existence of the pits at Treblinka as the "black propaganda."
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Old 5th March 2015, 04:30 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard View Post
OK

Preliminary Results of the Survey at Treblinka II (the extermination camp)

https://blogs.staffs.ac.uk/archaeolo...mination-camp/

Preliminary Results of the Survey at Treblinka I (the labour camp) and the Execution Site
https://blogs.staffs.ac.uk/archaeolo...xecution-site/
Thanks, sorry for the delay took a while to read all that!
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Old 5th March 2015, 05:52 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Jango View Post
Holocaust Denial is not a conspiracy theory. It is racism. It is a well-documented historical fact and there is even evidence of Hitler's desire to cover-it-up with the acquiescence of the German population. This black propaganda originated somewhere, and it certainly isn't born out of facts, it is a complete forgery and divorce from any coherent historical legitimacy. Two suspects come to mind -- the Nazis themselves or the Soviets.
Flase dichotomy. Holocause Deinal is both a racist doctrine and a wacked out conspiracy theory.
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Old 5th March 2015, 06:33 PM   #56
Matthew Ellard
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Originally Posted by Hans View Post
Thanks, sorry for the delay took a while to read all that!
The tiles in the gas chamber are interesting as eyewitnesses accurately described them in 1945 and when excavated in 2013, it was an exact match.


Regarding Holocaust Denial initiated from Germany or the Soviet Union
OK I must admit I did misread Jango's comment and must apologise. I will leave it to a qualified historian, who has specifically studied the topic, to summarise the origins of holocaust denial. (hint hint)


It is obvious that in the mid 80s, the Iranian government financially supported and attempted to "flip" holocaust deniers into an anti-American destabilisation group, without any luck.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interna..._the_Holocaust

However, nowadays, the shrinking cult simply seems to be a method of swindling donations out of teenage boys and into the hands of three of four individuals. As the cult has almost died out, I imagine these three of four individuals will look for other conspiracies to join and fleece a larger population of disturbed and gullible teenage boys.
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Old 30th March 2015, 09:49 AM   #57
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I lose all sense of humor over holocaust denial, you can laugh at big footers and such but this just makes me feel sad. I'm a lover of history(I have like800 history books)and I can't see how anyone could look honestly at the overwhelming evidence and not conclude the Nazis shot gassed and starved at least six and a half million jews. At the end of January 1945 my grandad took part in the liberation of Bergen Belsen he never spoke to me of it. I got all his other war stories but not that, my gran told me what he told her though too sleep at night he used a sock clothspegged to his nose for the smell and about the huts full of dead and dying-people alive, dying and dead in a sea of filth. How can people say it never happened those that deny the holocaust are all neo Nazis, anti semites and bigots. Please don't reply if your a denier because I won't lower myself to arguing with you.
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Old 31st March 2015, 10:25 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Jango View Post
Holocaust Denial is not a conspiracy theory. It is racism. It is a well-documented historical fact and there is even evidence of Hitler's desire to cover-it-up with the acquiescence of the German population. This black propaganda originated somewhere, and it certainly isn't born out of facts, it is a complete forgery and divorce from any coherent historical legitimacy. Two suspects come to mind -- the Nazis themselves or the Soviets.
It is a conspiracy theory, and many (if not most) conspiracy theories have racist subtexts.
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Old 1st April 2015, 07:37 AM   #59
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Matthew

Could you help out those of us who do not follow this subject as closely as you do. Might you comment on the state or status of Holocaust denial; is it becoming less or more widespread and who are the top three people/organizations doing so?

Thanks
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Old 1st April 2015, 10:32 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard View Post
The tiles in the gas chamber are interesting as eyewitnesses accurately described them in 1945 and when excavated in 2013, it was an exact match.
Wishful thinking is also thinking.

Fact: No homicidal gas chamber has ever been found or excavated at Treblinka. Some old bricks and handful of tiles do not a gas chamber make.
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Old 2nd April 2015, 08:39 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Charles Traynor View Post
Wishful thinking is also thinking.

Fact: No homicidal gas chamber has ever been found or excavated at Treblinka. Some old bricks and handful of tiles do not a gas chamber make.
You don't do this very well:

http://www.livescience.com/44443-tre...xcavation.html

It is not the bricks alone that make up the evidence of the chamber there.

By that logic the hearths, postholes and middens do not reveal the existence of ancient home.
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Old 2nd April 2015, 05:56 PM   #62
Matthew Ellard
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Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard
The tiles in the gas chamber are interesting as eyewitnesses accurately described them in 1945 and when excavated in 2013, it was an exact match.
Originally Posted by Charles Traynor View Post
Wishful thinking is also thinking.
Fact: No homicidal gas chamber has ever been found or excavated at Treblinka. Some old bricks and handful of tiles do not a gas chamber make.
Thankfully, Charles Traynor, a holocaust denier, has given up a perfect example, above, to show the "working methodology" of the cult.

The cult "group think" compels Charles to respond on one isolated issue while Charles pretends to forget all the complimentary evidence. For example Charles "forgets" that the German commanding officers of Treblinka II extermination camp confessed openly to the executions.

Hauptsturmführer Franz Stangl CO Treblinka "I think it started the day I first saw the Totenlager [extermination area] in Treblinka. I remember Wirth standing there, next to the pits full of black-blue corpses. It had nothing to do with humanity"

Charles then "forgets" That the Polish government initiated a formal investigation of Treblinka II just after the war. The leading Judge, Justice Lukaszkiewicz, issued a formal reports that confirms the German officer's confessions.

Justice Lukaszkiewicz (examining mass burial pits after bodies were removed, cremated (to hide the crime) and returned to the burial pits, by the Germans.)
".... its walls give recognizable evidence of the presence of a large quantity of ashes as well as human remains – was further excavated in order to discover the depth of the pit in this part of the camp. Numerous human remains were found by these excavations, partially still in a state of decomposition.[208] The soil consists of ashes interspersed with sand, is of a dark gray color and granulous in form. During the excavations, the soil gave off an intense odor of burning and decay. At a depth of 7.5 meters the bottom was reached, which consisted of layers of unmixed sand. At this point the digging was stopped here."

Evidence of Gassing
"The examination of human skulls could discover no trace of wounding."

"During the inspection, which I made with the assistance of an expert in forensic medicine, it was determined that the ashes are without any doubt of human origin (remains of cremated human bones)."

Charles also forgets that the Poles did take photos and the photos show the enormous scale of examining the cremated remains of over 800,000 adults & children. (See bottom of post)

Charles then forgets that the SS kept beautiful records of all the dead people's clothing that was carefully recycled due to shortages.

Nuremberg Document NO-1257 Pohl to Himmler 6 February 1943 containing a detailed list of items seized . Among them were 221 train cars' worth of appropriated clothing
[...]2. Office for Germanization [VoMi]
Men's clothing:
overcoats - 99,000
jackets - 57,000
vests - 27,000
pants - 62,000
drawers - 38,000
shirts - 132,000
pullovers - 9,000
scarves - 2,000
pajamas - 6,000
collars - 10,000
gloves - 2,000 pairs
socks - 10,000 pairs
shoes - 31,000 pairs

Women's clothing:
coats - 155,000 pieces
dresses - 119,000 pieces
blouses - 30,000 pieces
pullovers - 60,000 pieces
drawers - 49,000 pieces
panties - 60,000 pieces
jackets - 26,000 pieces
shirts - 30,000 pieces
chemises - 125,000 pieces
pajamas - 27,000 pieces
aprons - 36,000 pieces
brassieres - 25,000 pieces
underwear - 22,000 pieces
kerchiefs - 85,000 pieces
shoes - 111,000 pieces

Children's clothing:
overcoats - 15,000
boys' jackets - 11,000
boys' pants - 3,000
shirts - 3,000
scarves - 4,000
pullovers - 1,000
drawers - 1,000
girls' dresses - 9,000
girls' chemises - 5,000
aprons - 2,000
drawers - 5,000
stockings - 10,000 pairs
shoes - 22,000 pairs


Charles then forgets his own claim that the victims were resettled "somewhere" in the east, because Charles can't explain why they were all nude

Charles then forgets about the Polish Treblinka Station Master, Franciszek Zabecki. Mr Zabecki wrote down the trains arriving at Treblinka II and handed a log book to the post war authorities. As there was only a single line leading into the extermination camp, Charles has to explain how more than 800,000 people "left" Treblinka II. Was it by hovercraft, Charles?

Finally Charles forgets the very obvious fact that, he claims Treblinka II was a transit camp, but can'y explain why there were no barracks, or water, or food, for the 6,000 people that arrived with each train.

Thankfully Staffordshire University has answered that question. They performed a forensic archaeological survey of Treblinka in 2013 and identifies 11 (so far) mass burial pits, created at the time the Jews arrived.

https://blogs.staffs.ac.uk/archaeolo...ing-treblinka/
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File Type: jpg Ash Treblinka 1945.jpg (24.6 KB, 403 views)
File Type: jpg Polish investigation at Treblinka .JPG (70.5 KB, 7 views)
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Old 3rd April 2015, 04:04 AM   #63
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Holocaust deniers as a 'fifth column' for the Iranians? Really?
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Old 3rd April 2015, 08:28 PM   #64
Matthew Ellard
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Originally Posted by nodster78 View Post
Holocaust deniers as a 'fifth column' for the Iranians? Really?
Yes. The Tehran holocaust denial conference, to which most of the Western Holocaust deniers went. Would you like to read some post conference editorials by Western holocaust deniers, praising former Iranian President Ahmadinejad? They are extremely funny as Iranian propaganda was fairly rudimentary back then.
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Old 22nd April 2015, 10:01 AM   #65
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Quote:
As CBS News correspondent Mark Phillips reports, the man facing charges didn't kill anyone. But Oskar Groening, now a 93-year-old man, has a dark past, and it has finally caught up with him.

He was the accountant at the Nazi's Auschwitz concentration camp in Poland. He took the victims' money, and a German court will now decide whether he's guilty as an accessory to murder.



http://www.cbsnews.com/news/nazi-aus...ns-in-germany/
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Old 22nd April 2015, 10:49 PM   #66
Matthew Ellard
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Originally Posted by HghrSymmetry View Post
As CBS News correspondent Mark Phillips reports, the man facing charges didn't kill anyone. But Oskar Groening, now a 93-year-old man, has a dark past, and it has finally caught up with him.

He was the accountant at the Nazi's Auschwitz concentration camp in Poland. He took the victims' money, and a German court will now decide whether he's guilty as an accessory to murder.
This has been very interesting. Groening has confirmed the executions at Auschwitz. In 2013 Treblinka's gas chamber was excavated. Recently, it really has been a bad period for holocaust denier fund raising scams.

There were two remaining holocaust deniers at the Skeptic Society's forum. One has stopped posting and the other has switched to claiming UFO's are real.

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Old 23rd April 2015, 07:49 AM   #67
Rincewind
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Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard View Post
This has been very interesting. Groening has confirmed the executions at Auschwitz. In 2013 Treblinka's gas chamber was excavated. Recently, it really has been a bad period for holocaust denier fund raising scams.

There were two remaining holocaust deniers at the Skeptic Society's forum. One has stopped posting and the other has switched to claiming UFO's are real.

Groening was interviewed on the BBC DVD "Auschwitz The Nazis & the Final Solution".

Seemed to be pretty honest.
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Old 23rd April 2015, 10:44 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard View Post
This has been very interesting. Groening has confirmed the executions at Auschwitz. In 2013 Treblinka's gas chamber was excavated. Recently, it really has been a bad period for holocaust denier fund raising scams.

There were two remaining holocaust deniers at the Skeptic Society's forum. One has stopped posting and the other has switched to claiming UFO's are real.

Acknowledged. I have been only skimming the topics as of late, but haven't seen too much of the main denier (aka: D).
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Old 23rd April 2015, 12:34 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
Groening was interviewed on the BBC DVD "Auschwitz The Nazis & the Final Solution".

Seemed to be pretty honest.
Indeed, Gröning's experiences sums up the trouble with trying to reason with Holocaust deniers. After he pointed out that he had been to Auschwitz and pretty much had seen the entire process from start to finish, he found himself recieving mail from deniers who claimed that he clearly was mistaken...

He gave en interview to Der Spiegel 10 years ago recounting his experiences then and now: http://www.spiegel.de/international/...-a-355188.html
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Old 23rd April 2015, 02:02 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Charles Traynor View Post
Wishful thinking is also thinking.

Fact: No homicidal gas chamber has ever been found or excavated at Treblinka. Some old bricks and handful of tiles do not a gas chamber make.
Facts:
The bricks and tiles match the descriptions given by witness to the chambers such as Abraham Krzepicki.

The location is where various witnesses said the gas chambers were in the camp.

That the remains were found under sand and soil matches the detail given by Yankel Wiernik that there was a cover up at the camp to hide what was done.
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Old 24th April 2015, 02:12 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard View Post
Recently, it really has been a bad period for holocaust denier fund raising scams.

Unfortunately this will no stop the deniers.

At best they will just wait a while until these facts come under the radar and then they will resume spreading their ********.

They are like the members of any other sect: they have the faith and are out of reach of rational arguments based on checked facts...
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Old 26th April 2015, 01:39 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Degeneve View Post
Unfortunately this will no stop the deniers.

At best they will just wait a while until these facts come under the radar and then they will resume spreading their ********.

They are like the members of any other sect: they have the faith and are out of reach of rational arguments based on checked facts...
This.

Nothing short of inventing a time machine and sending them to Treblinka or Birkenau c.1943 would be enough to convince them, and I suspect even that wouldn't be enough for some.
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Old 26th April 2015, 11:13 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Dash80 View Post
This.

Nothing short of inventing a time machine and sending them to Treblinka or Birkenau c.1943 would be enough to convince them, and I suspect even that wouldn't be enough for some.
I think you're right.

What's that old saying?

"There's none so blind as those who don't want to see."
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Old 27th April 2015, 12:20 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
"There's none so blind as those who don't want to see."
As I've gotten older, I think that quote needs a revision:

"There's none so blind as those who have already seen the light."
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Old 27th April 2015, 04:30 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
As I've gotten older, I think that quote needs a revision:

"There's none so blind as those who have already seen the light."
OR

"There's none so blind as those who have already know what they want to see".
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Old 27th April 2015, 05:53 PM   #76
Matthew Ellard
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Originally Posted by Degeneve View Post
Unfortunately this will no stop the deniers.

At best they will just wait a while until these facts come under the radar and then they will resume spreading their ********.

They are like the members of any other sect: they have the faith and are out of reach of rational arguments based on checked facts...
My gut feeling is that we can sort of assess the holocaust denial cult, by reviewing other cult "models". It is not an isolationist cult seeking total separation from normal human society, but rather seeks public donations and wants to "tell the world the truth". It appears, the cult must engage with the public to survive.

I would agree that the "lower ranks" of the cult are true believers who simply accept the propaganda and ignore conflicting evidence. However, to keep the message acceptable to normal members of the public ( potential donors) , the "bosses" need to produce sanitised propaganda, generally on secondary issues ( Right of free speech to discuss denial, persecution of "free speech" freedom fighters, secret Jewish-Soviet organisations and so on)

For this reason, I am suspicious that the cult "bosses" would need to be a bit more educated than the "lower ranks". This brings me to my main point. I have no way of proving this, but I'm suspicious that some holocaust denier "bosses" are very aware that the holocaust was real and are simply going through the motions to keep receiving donations. I'm not talking about large amounts of money. I talking about "one on one" scams by "bosses" to one or two, dumb but rich people.

Do the "lower ranks" make donations?
I'm going to say something a bit unusual. My gut feeling is that the holocaust denial "lower ranks" are uneducated, with little disposable income to donate. All because a particular cult may seem to pump out volumes of propaganda to the public, does not mean the bosses have any intention of conning the public or maintaining the "lower ranks". The intent may be to con one or two richer blokes by saying "See, look at all the good work we do informing the public". I don't know if this is the case here. I'm just thinking about different ways of looking at the holocaust denial cult "bosses"
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Old 1st May 2015, 01:25 PM   #77
Degeneve
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Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard View Post
For this reason, I am suspicious that the cult "bosses" would need to be a bit more educated than the "lower ranks". This brings me to my main point. I have no way of proving this, but I'm suspicious that some holocaust denier "bosses" are very aware that the holocaust was real and are simply going through the motions to keep receiving donations. I'm not talking about large amounts of money. I talking about "one on one" scams by "bosses" to one or two, dumb but rich people.
As a matter of facts they may also find financial support with some governements which officially (or unofficially) support Holocaust denial.

I would guess that a country like Iran which has organised twice an "International Holocaust Cartoon Competition" and one "International Conference to Review the Global Vision of the Holocaust" attended by the "elite" of the world deniers is also ready to spend money to donate to those who support and try to spread the denialist theories. And I can not exclude that there might be other governments which do it too, but in a less visible fashion...

With respect to "lower ranks" donations I can ygree with your statement. However "lower ranks" members may also buy some material (e.g. books) which provides funding to the "denialist churches"...
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Old 7th June 2015, 03:31 PM   #78
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Everything I Learned About WW II Is A LIE!

There are many conspiracies out there. That the U.S. was behind the 9-11 attacks, the moon landing being faked, the earth being 6000 years old, etc. To the best of my ability to judge, what I am going to tell you isn't one of those crackpot conspiracies. Keep in mind a couple old sayings. "In war, truth is the first casualty" and "History is written by the victors."

Edited by Locknar:  SNIPed, breach of rule 4; http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/fo...olocaust-Cult/


Don't believe it? Look up the old Red Cross documents I mentioned. Watch the documentary I mentioned. Do what the makers of the documentary invite you to do at the end of it. Look up the facts for yourself.

Last edited by Locknar; 9th June 2015 at 07:07 AM.
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Old 7th June 2015, 03:39 PM   #79
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I guess everything I've read for the past fifty years is wrong. Silly me.
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Old 7th June 2015, 03:42 PM   #80
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