ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Economics, Business and Finance
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags bitcoin

Reply
Old 10th September 2014, 04:52 AM   #41
EGarrett
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,086
Originally Posted by jhunter1163 View Post
And at the height of the frenzy, it was up around $1,250. Ask the guy who bought, say, 20 BTC at that point, and whose $25,000 investment is now worth about $9,500, what BTC is "up to".
Oh I see, so as long as we cut the graph at your arbitrary points, you can claim it's down, rather than looking at the actual long-term trend from its creation until now, where it's skyrocketed.

By the way, I'm not surprised at all that you ignored me asking to hold you to your claims. Because I found this, from you, in the old thread...

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=702

"Actually, it looks like it's spiked up pretty sharply in the last week or so, not really a steady increase. And this mini-bubble will only last till one of the early adopters dumps a couple thousand back on the market, then it'll go back to around $3 (which is where it's been for months, and where it will likely stay.)"

Coupled with a nice, rude snicker not long after.

Now, regarding what you said before, that Dell and ebay are "pushing the risk off on Coinbase," let's quote something I said 3 years ago in the original thread, responding to someone saying there were too many security issues for it to be largely adopted...

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=360

All you're saying is that it's desirable for someone to develop convenient security software or security sites to accompany the Bitcoin client. That's inevitable...and is probably so easy to implement that I wouldn't even be surprised if they're free and open-sourced."

You, and several others, like the poster in my sig, owe the people who were respectfully and patiently explaining Bitcoin, an apology.
__________________
"So if a tard came up to me and offered to sell me 10 bitcoins for $100, not only would I not do it, I think I'd punch him in the head, just for being stupid." -The Central Scrutinizer
EGarrett is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th September 2014, 06:34 AM   #42
Almo
Masterblazer
 
Almo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Posts: 6,825
I won't dispute it's a currency. But it doesn't work very well as a currency for reasons already discussed ad nauseum. So I would treat it as an investment commodity rather than a currency.
__________________
Almo!
My Blog
"No society ever collapsed because the poor had too much." — LeftySergeant
"It may be that there is no body really at rest, to which the places and motions of others may be referred." –Issac Newton in the Principia
Almo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th September 2014, 06:54 AM   #43
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 11,811
Originally Posted by jhunter1163 View Post
And at the height of the frenzy, it was up around $1,250. Ask the guy who bought, say, 20 BTC at that point, and whose $25,000 investment is now worth about $9,500, what BTC is "up to".
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th September 2014, 07:25 AM   #44
jhunter1163
beer-swilling semiliterate
 
jhunter1163's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Connecticut, or King Arthur's Court. Hard to tell sometimes.
Posts: 24,934
Originally Posted by EGarrett View Post
You, and several others, like the poster in my sig, owe the people who were respectfully and patiently explaining Bitcoin, an apology.
Oh, I understand Bitcoin fully, make no apology for my previous comments, and stand by them. Bitcoin will inevitably be obsoleted by the big banks. It might take a year or two, but at least one of the bigs has already patented a virtual private lockbox (essentially the same tech as Bitcoin, with the added advantage of being denominated in USD). The market for such a thing is probably too small right now to justify the marketing expense, but when that changes Bitcoin will be relegated to the shadows from whence it came.
jhunter1163 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th September 2014, 08:37 AM   #45
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 11,811
Originally Posted by jhunter1163 View Post
It might take a year or two, but at least one of the bigs has already patented a virtual private lockbox (essentially the same tech as Bitcoin, with the added advantage of being denominated in USD).
Source?
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th September 2014, 09:12 AM   #46
jhunter1163
beer-swilling semiliterate
 
jhunter1163's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Connecticut, or King Arthur's Court. Hard to tell sometimes.
Posts: 24,934
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Source?
Here you go. It's JPMorgan Chase doing this, but the others are no doubt watching with interest.

http://money.cnn.com/2013/12/10/tech...coin-jpmorgan/
jhunter1163 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th September 2014, 09:39 AM   #47
Tippit
Master Poster
 
Tippit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,621
Originally Posted by jhunter1163 View Post
Oh, I understand Bitcoin fully, make no apology for my previous comments, and stand by them. Bitcoin will inevitably be obsoleted by the big banks. It might take a year or two, but at least one of the bigs has already patented a virtual private lockbox (essentially the same tech as Bitcoin, with the added advantage of being denominated in USD). The market for such a thing is probably too small right now to justify the marketing expense, but when that changes Bitcoin will be relegated to the shadows from whence it came.
Good thing the "big banks" have cheerleaders like you, they have fallen on hard times recently and need all the support they can get.

I'm sure all of the bitcoin supporters are simply waiting for the big banks to get their acts together and come up with a real solution that doesn't benefit the big banks.
__________________
"The issue which has swept down the centuries and which will have to be fought sooner or later is the people versus the banks."
- Lord Acton
Tippit is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th September 2014, 09:47 AM   #48
jhunter1163
beer-swilling semiliterate
 
jhunter1163's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Connecticut, or King Arthur's Court. Hard to tell sometimes.
Posts: 24,934
Originally Posted by Tippit View Post
Good thing the "big banks" have cheerleaders like you, they have fallen on hard times recently and need all the support they can get.

I'm sure all of the bitcoin supporters are simply waiting for the big banks to get their acts together and come up with a real solution that doesn't benefit the big banks.
Surely you're not so naive as to think that the big banks would ever do anything for humanitarian reasons. If the market's big enough to make a profit, they'll roll the VPL out. I'm sure they're gathering data on transaction volume even as we type.
jhunter1163 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th September 2014, 10:19 AM   #49
Argumemnon
World Maker
 
Argumemnon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the thick of things
Posts: 68,676
Originally Posted by Tippit View Post
Good thing the "big banks" have cheerleaders like you, they have fallen on hard times recently and need all the support they can get.
Did jhunter ever say it was a good or bad thing, or was he just predicting what would happen ? Or is even that cheerleading because the conclusion disagrees with you ?
__________________
渦巻く暗雲天を殺し 現る凶事のうなりか

Argumemnon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th September 2014, 07:07 PM   #50
Brian-M
Daydreamer
 
Brian-M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 8,044
Originally Posted by jhunter1163 View Post
Bitcoin will inevitably be obsoleted by the big banks. It might take a year or two, but at least one of the bigs has already patented a virtual private lockbox (essentially the same tech as Bitcoin, with the added advantage of being denominated in USD).
Originally Posted by jhunter1163 View Post
Here you go. It's JPMorgan Chase doing this, but the others are no doubt watching with interest.

http://money.cnn.com/2013/12/10/tech...coin-jpmorgan/

That doesn't seem to be "essentially the same" to me.
There are two major differences between that and bitcoin.

While you would be able to make and receive payments anonymously with this system, the ownership of the account itself would most likely not be anonymous. The bank (and any government or law enforcement service that can produce a warrant to look at the account) would still know who the money belongs to.

Also, since it's being handled by financial institutions rather than being fully decentralized, the government can force them to freeze your account. With bitcoin, they have to get hold of your keys/wallet before they can do anything with your account. They can't freeze a bitcoin account without them.
__________________
"That is just what you feel, that isn't reality." - hamelekim
Brian-M is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th September 2014, 07:43 PM   #51
AlaskaBushPilot
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,861
Originally Posted by Almo View Post
I won't dispute it's a currency. But it doesn't work very well as a currency for reasons already discussed ad nauseum. So I would treat it as an investment commodity rather than a currency.
How one individual treats it is irrelevant. You don't use Yen or Marks, but that does not negate them as currency. Both would be speculative investments for you, but that is not what others are doing it with it. This is a strange kind of closed-mindedness. "I don't use it personally, therefore it isn't used by others".

They are using it as currency, whether you like it or not.
AlaskaBushPilot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th September 2014, 09:02 PM   #52
jhunter1163
beer-swilling semiliterate
 
jhunter1163's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Connecticut, or King Arthur's Court. Hard to tell sometimes.
Posts: 24,934
Originally Posted by Brian-M View Post
That doesn't seem to be "essentially the same" to me.
There are two major differences between that and bitcoin.

While you would be able to make and receive payments anonymously with this system, the ownership of the account itself would most likely not be anonymous. The bank (and any government or law enforcement service that can produce a warrant to look at the account) would still know who the money belongs to.
The security tech is the same algorithm. And I don't have a problem with a government or law enforcement agency knowing who owns my account, since I don't engage in any activities that would motivate them to come and seize it. It's the security that is appealing.

Quote:
Also, since it's being handled by financial institutions rather than being fully decentralized, the government can force them to freeze your account. With bitcoin, they have to get hold of your keys/wallet before they can do anything with your account. They can't freeze a bitcoin account without them.
Since about one of every eight bitcoins ever mined has been stolen, this doesn't seem to be too difficult.
jhunter1163 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2014, 03:32 AM   #53
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 11,811
Originally Posted by jhunter1163 View Post
Since about one of every eight bitcoins ever mined has been stolen, this doesn't seem to be too difficult.
2/3 of all statistics are made up.
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2014, 04:13 AM   #54
EGarrett
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,086
Originally Posted by jhunter1163 View Post
Oh, I understand Bitcoin fully, make no apology for my previous comments, and stand by them. Bitcoin will inevitably be obsoleted by the big banks. It might take a year or two, but at least one of the bigs has already patented a virtual private lockbox (essentially the same tech as Bitcoin, with the added advantage of being denominated in USD). The market for such a thing is probably too small right now to justify the marketing expense, but when that changes Bitcoin will be relegated to the shadows from whence it came.
Ignoring 90% of the conversation, claiming you "stand by your previous comments," then try to quote something that has nothing to do with your previous comments, are classic evasive tactics.

Your bad behavior and demonstrably false claims are not going to disappear until you own up to them.

By the way, that statement I made from 3 years ago?

Bitcoin wallet Coinbase returns to the App Store via company-endorsed open-source iOS app

I just went to the App Store also. The one that came up for "Coinbase" is listed as free too.

So yup, that's right. The Coinbase app that you yourself pointed to as some kind of excuse for why eBay was integrating Bitcoin is both FREE and OPEN-SOURCED. Which is EXACTLY what I said would inevitably appear to trigger this.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=360

Originally Posted by EGarrett
"All you're saying is that it's desirable for someone to develop convenient security software or security sites to accompany the Bitcoin client. That's inevitable...and is probably so easy to implement that I wouldn't even be surprised if they're free and open-sourced."
Emphasis mine.

You were dead-wrong on your predictions and you and others were highly immature and rude and inappropriate on top of it.

Own up to it.
__________________
"So if a tard came up to me and offered to sell me 10 bitcoins for $100, not only would I not do it, I think I'd punch him in the head, just for being stupid." -The Central Scrutinizer
EGarrett is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2014, 06:58 AM   #55
jhunter1163
beer-swilling semiliterate
 
jhunter1163's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Connecticut, or King Arthur's Court. Hard to tell sometimes.
Posts: 24,934
Originally Posted by EGarrett View Post
Ignoring 90% of the conversation... <snip>
I am not "ignoring" anything. eBay, Overstock.com and the other retailers (with a few trivial exceptions) do not accept Bitcoin; they accept USD from Coinbase, who accepts BTC from purchasers. The volatility risk falls on Coinbase, not on eBay or Overstock, which is how the retailers want it, I'm sure. Until some retailer accepts BTC directly, there's nothing new under the sun.

And I'll make an avatar bet that Coinbase is hacked before the end of the year. It's just too tempting a target for the scammers.

If you want a source for my "one in eight" claim, I listed the major thefts in the previous thread. Including Mt. Gox, the total was something around 1.5 million BTC, or about one in eight of all BTC ever mined.

Last edited by jhunter1163; 11th September 2014 at 06:59 AM. Reason: Spelling
jhunter1163 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2014, 10:10 AM   #56
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 11,811
Originally Posted by jhunter1163 View Post
If you want a source for my "one in eight" claim, I listed the major thefts in the previous thread.
You couldn't find that post either?

Originally Posted by jhunter1163 View Post
Including Mt. Gox, .......
If you are going to classify exchange failures as theft ..........
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2014, 10:12 AM   #57
jhunter1163
beer-swilling semiliterate
 
jhunter1163's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Connecticut, or King Arthur's Court. Hard to tell sometimes.
Posts: 24,934
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
You couldn't find that post either?


If you are going to classify exchange failures as theft ..........
Perhaps you'd care to explain why Mt. Gox failed then, if not theft?
jhunter1163 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2014, 10:17 AM   #58
jhunter1163
beer-swilling semiliterate
 
jhunter1163's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Connecticut, or King Arthur's Court. Hard to tell sometimes.
Posts: 24,934
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
You couldn't find that post either?
Here you go; it wasn't my post but the numbers are the same.

http://duncanpredicts.wordpress.com/...ank-robberies/
jhunter1163 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2014, 11:13 AM   #59
The_Animus
Master Poster
 
The_Animus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,655
Originally Posted by jhunter1163 View Post
Oh, I understand Bitcoin fully, make no apology for my previous comments, and stand by them. Bitcoin will inevitably be obsoleted by the big banks. It might take a year or two, but at least one of the bigs has already patented a virtual private lockbox (essentially the same tech as Bitcoin, with the added advantage of being denominated in USD). The market for such a thing is probably too small right now to justify the marketing expense, but when that changes Bitcoin will be relegated to the shadows from whence it came.
Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. You aren't doing yourself any favors by living in denial or moving goalposts.

Bitcoin will probably be replaced eventually as the main crypto currency but that's not different than many new products. Someone puts the first one out there, issues are discovered, others get into the market, improvements are made, and someone else becomes #1.
__________________
Straw Man, Ad Hominem, Moving the Goalposts, and a massive post count are all good indicators that a poster is intellectually dishonest and not interested in real discussion.

Feeding trolls only makes them stronger, yet it is so hard to refrain.
The_Animus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2014, 12:03 PM   #60
jhunter1163
beer-swilling semiliterate
 
jhunter1163's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Connecticut, or King Arthur's Court. Hard to tell sometimes.
Posts: 24,934
Originally Posted by The_Animus View Post
Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. You aren't doing yourself any favors by living in denial or moving goalposts.

Bitcoin will probably be replaced eventually as the main crypto currency but that's not different than many new products. Someone puts the first one out there, issues are discovered, others get into the market, improvements are made, and someone else becomes #1.
I'm not sure where you get the idea that I've moved the goalposts; you just said pretty much what I said in my posts about the VPL. The encryption tech is the appealing thing; that's what the big banks will coopt and roll out as the VPL or similar. BTC will go back to being the currency of choice for drug dealers and child-porn purveyors, and the would-be get-rich-quick speculators who got burned in the various thefts will go on about their way, poorer but hopefully wiser in the ways of chasing rainbows.
jhunter1163 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2014, 01:56 PM   #61
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 11,811
Originally Posted by jhunter1163 View Post
Here you go; it wasn't my post but the numbers are the same.

http://duncanpredicts.wordpress.com/...ank-robberies/
That article (which is referring to https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=576337) classifies every bitcoin loss as "theft" regardless of how the loss incurred. Even forgetting your encryption password is counted as a theft. It is meaningless.

Trusting larges sums of bitcoins to third party repositories of unknown reliability is a separate issue from bitcoin itself. ie MtGox is a MtGox issue - not a bitcoin issue.

You have raised nothing new. The fact remains that if you take sensible precautions with the storage and trading of your bitcoins, the risks are no higher than with any other form of money (whether it be a currency or not).
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2014, 02:38 PM   #62
jhunter1163
beer-swilling semiliterate
 
jhunter1163's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Connecticut, or King Arthur's Court. Hard to tell sometimes.
Posts: 24,934
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
That article (which is referring to https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=576337) classifies every bitcoin loss as "theft" regardless of how the loss incurred. Even forgetting your encryption password is counted as a theft. It is meaningless.

Trusting larges sums of bitcoins to third party repositories of unknown reliability is a separate issue from bitcoin itself. ie MtGox is a MtGox issue - not a bitcoin issue.

You have raised nothing new. The fact remains that if you take sensible precautions with the storage and trading of your bitcoins, the risks are no higher than with any other form of money (whether it be a currency or not).
Remember "transaction malleability"? How can you trust any exchange after that fiasco?
jhunter1163 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2014, 03:38 PM   #63
eirik
Muse
 
eirik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 706
Originally Posted by The_Animus View Post
Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. You aren't doing yourself any favors by living in denial or moving goalposts.

Bitcoin will probably be replaced eventually as the main crypto currency but that's not different than many new products. Someone puts the first one out there, issues are discovered, others get into the market, improvements are made, and someone else becomes #1.
Gosh, this bitcoin thing sure is many things. A currency, a company share, a technology and now a product. All this to buy pizza without the government finding out. Impressive!
__________________
"I do not believe in the immortality of the individual, and I consider ethics to be an exclusively human concern without any superhuman authority behind it." -Albert Einstein
eirik is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2014, 07:45 PM   #64
The_Animus
Master Poster
 
The_Animus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,655
Originally Posted by eirik View Post
Gosh, this bitcoin thing sure is many things. A currency, a company share, a technology and now a product.
Which of these is it not? It seems to have aspects of all of these.

Quote:
All this to buy pizza without the government finding out. Impressive!
If that's all you think it is you should read more about it.
__________________
Straw Man, Ad Hominem, Moving the Goalposts, and a massive post count are all good indicators that a poster is intellectually dishonest and not interested in real discussion.

Feeding trolls only makes them stronger, yet it is so hard to refrain.
The_Animus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2014, 11:45 PM   #65
eirik
Muse
 
eirik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 706
I have. All i can do with it is speculate. That's not really a product or a share or a currency, any more than lottery tickets with winnings in krusty dollars.

With some work, it seems a viable technology though. Which anyone can put to use.
__________________
"I do not believe in the immortality of the individual, and I consider ethics to be an exclusively human concern without any superhuman authority behind it." -Albert Einstein
eirik is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th September 2014, 01:13 AM   #66
TeapotCavalry
Master Poster
 
TeapotCavalry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Estonia
Posts: 2,116
Originally Posted by eirik View Post
I have. All i can do with it is speculate. That's not really a product or a share or a currency, any more than lottery tickets with winnings in krusty dollars.
Well, golly! I've used it to buy products. Did I by chance misuse it since it's not supposed to be a currency?
__________________
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” – Christopher Hitchens.
TeapotCavalry is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th September 2014, 02:26 AM   #67
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 11,811
Originally Posted by jhunter1163 View Post
Remember "transaction malleability"? How can you trust any exchange after that fiasco?
Remember? I was the one who explained what happened in How To Use Bitcoin – The Most Important Creation In The History Of Man - post #4765.

Of course you are confirming that this is a MtGox issue - not a bitcoin issue. I haven't heard of any other exchanges being stupid enough to fall for transaction malleability type scams since but no exchange is totally secure.
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th September 2014, 02:29 AM   #68
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 11,811
Originally Posted by eirik View Post
That's not really a product or a share or a currency
On the balance sheet they are all listed as "assets".
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th September 2014, 02:54 AM   #69
Argumemnon
World Maker
 
Argumemnon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the thick of things
Posts: 68,676
Originally Posted by TeapotCavalry View Post
Well, golly! I've used it to buy products. Did I by chance misuse it since it's not supposed to be a currency?
Depends. If someone accepts hot dogs as payment, are hot dogs a currency ?
__________________
渦巻く暗雲天を殺し 現る凶事のうなりか

Argumemnon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th September 2014, 03:28 AM   #70
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 11,811
Maybe you missed post #37.
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th September 2014, 03:30 AM   #71
eirik
Muse
 
eirik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 706
Originally Posted by TeapotCavalry View Post
Well, golly! I've used it to buy products. Did I by chance misuse it since it's not supposed to be a currency?
You can buy products with krusty dollars as well. That doesn't make it a currency.
__________________
"I do not believe in the immortality of the individual, and I consider ethics to be an exclusively human concern without any superhuman authority behind it." -Albert Einstein
eirik is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th September 2014, 04:30 AM   #72
Argumemnon
World Maker
 
Argumemnon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the thick of things
Posts: 68,676
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Maybe you missed post #37.
That actually doesn't answer my question. I assume your answer is "no" ?
__________________
渦巻く暗雲天を殺し 現る凶事のうなりか

Argumemnon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th September 2014, 04:59 AM   #73
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 11,811
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That actually doesn't answer my question. I assume your answer is "no" ?
I don't care if bitcoin/hotdogs are a currency or not. It depends on how you define "currency".
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th September 2014, 05:55 AM   #74
jhunter1163
beer-swilling semiliterate
 
jhunter1163's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Connecticut, or King Arthur's Court. Hard to tell sometimes.
Posts: 24,934
BTC can be used us a currency, but it is not well suited to the purpose because its value fluctuates so wildly. That's why retailers who want to be "hip" and "edgy" are saying "We accept Bitcoin*!" with the asterisk being "What we mean is, we accept USD from a company that deals in Bitcoin. We don't want BTC on our balance sheet, ever."

BTC is best described (and used) as a highly speculative investment.
jhunter1163 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th September 2014, 06:36 PM   #75
TeapotCavalry
Master Poster
 
TeapotCavalry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Estonia
Posts: 2,116
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Depends. If someone accepts hot dogs as payment, are hot dogs a currency ?
Yes, if enough people accepted it. Hot dogs doesn't seem to be very practical though.

Originally Posted by eirik View Post
You can buy products with krusty dollars as well. That doesn't make it a currency.
So the problem isn't that you can't use it as currency, but that it doesn't fit some specific definition of currency? I don't care what you call it, it's a medium of exchange, a token used for money, hence justifiably called a currency. You know, like crypto-currency.
__________________
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” – Christopher Hitchens.
TeapotCavalry is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th September 2014, 09:50 PM   #76
jhunter1163
beer-swilling semiliterate
 
jhunter1163's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Connecticut, or King Arthur's Court. Hard to tell sometimes.
Posts: 24,934
Originally Posted by TeapotCavalry View Post
Yes, if enough people accepted it. Hot dogs doesn't seem to be very practical though.
Neither is Bitcoin. Hardly anyone accepts it as currency, and its value fluctuates wildly (not unlike hot dogs, whose value fluctuates wildly depending on how long it's been since you've eaten).
jhunter1163 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th September 2014, 05:18 AM   #77
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 11,811
Originally Posted by jhunter1163 View Post
Neither is Bitcoin. Hardly anyone accepts it as currency, and its value fluctuates wildly (not unlike hot dogs, whose value fluctuates wildly depending on how long it's been since you've eaten).
Not a very good comparison since hotdogs are not fungible and are a poor store of value (they become worthless after a couple of days).

Maybe you would prefer to compare bitcoins to raw sewerage.
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th September 2014, 05:23 AM   #78
EGarrett
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,086
In other news, the Bank of England has now co-signed the idea of the Bitcoin concept, and the related technology, labeling it as "revolutionary."

http://www.businessinsider.com/bank-...bitcoin-2014-9

Originally Posted by Bank of England, via Business Insider
But the exciting part of this is that this technology could have implications far beyond payment systems alone. The Bank provides some fascinating hints for just how wide the applications of this could be (emphasis mine):

The majority of financial assets — such as loans, bonds, stocks and derivatives — now exist only in electronic form, meaning that the financial system itself is already simply a set of digital records ... This development could allow any type of financial asset, for example shares in a company, to be recorded on a distributed ledger.

Bitcoin may only be temporary phenomenon but the technology that underpins it may soon become ubiquitous. According to the Bank, it could mark "a first attempt at an 'internet of finance.'"
Moving on...

Originally Posted by jhunter1163 View Post
I am not "ignoring" anything.
After you *snip* 90% of my post to leave only the part where I say you're doing exactly that. You're now falling into self-parody.

It's very clear at this point that you DON'T want to be participating in this discussion anymore and are only doing so in vague attempts to save face. Which won't work because I have a long memory, a search function, and a strong desire to hold you and others accountable.

You were dead-wrong in your behavior, your claims, AND your knowledge. Admit it.
__________________
"So if a tard came up to me and offered to sell me 10 bitcoins for $100, not only would I not do it, I think I'd punch him in the head, just for being stupid." -The Central Scrutinizer
EGarrett is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th September 2014, 08:12 AM   #79
jhunter1163
beer-swilling semiliterate
 
jhunter1163's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Connecticut, or King Arthur's Court. Hard to tell sometimes.
Posts: 24,934
The bolded:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bank of England, via Business Insider
But the exciting part of this is that this technology could have implications far beyond payment systems alone. The Bank provides some fascinating hints for just how wide the applications of this could be (emphasis mine):

The majority of financial assets — such as loans, bonds, stocks and derivatives — now exist only in electronic form, meaning that the financial system itself is already simply a set of digital records ... This development could allow any type of financial asset, for example shares in a company, to be recorded on a distributed ledger.

Bitcoin may only be temporary phenomenon but the technology that underpins it may soon become ubiquitous. According to the Bank, it could mark "a first attempt at an 'internet of finance.'"
is essentially what I said in post 60:

Quote:
The encryption tech is the appealing thing; that's what the big banks will coopt and roll out as the VPL or similar.
and in the previous thread at #4684:

Quote:
I've said before that the fundamental principle of bitcoin (a secure and anonymous place to store value) is a sound one.
and in the previous thread at #4409:

Quote:
This is the way of all tech; a good idea arises (and I have never disputed that the fundamental idea behind Bitcoin is a good one), the pioneers get it out there in the public consciousness, and the big boys come in and use their resources to implement it better and cheaper. I don't think BTC will be any different.
I'm not really sure where you get the idea that I think BTC is inherently bad. It's not a good investment, it's not a good currency, and over the long haul I think it's going to be either legislated out of existence or crushed by competition, but the tech is not going to magically disappear. There is clearly a market for a secure and anonymous store of value, and some bank (or banks) will service that market.
jhunter1163 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th September 2014, 11:01 AM   #80
Argumemnon
World Maker
 
Argumemnon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the thick of things
Posts: 68,676
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Not a very good comparison since hotdogs are not fungible and are a poor store of value (they become worthless after a couple of days).
Yeah but you can convert them to calories which (unfortunately) tend to stick around for decades.
__________________
渦巻く暗雲天を殺し 現る凶事のうなりか

Argumemnon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Economics, Business and Finance

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:18 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.