ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 13th October 2016, 08:27 AM   #281
RussDill
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,304
Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Your opinion is irrelevant. it is either real or fake as a matter of fact, and you are doing pretty much everything you can to avoid determining fact. My conclusion is that, you take some sort of perverse satisfaction from continuing to insinuate that it is fake despite the balance of evidence to the contrary. I don't agree with my colleagues that money is invariably the motivator. In my experience conspiracy theorists are far more likely to be motivated by the prospect of being seen as important or noteworthy.
I really think the motivation is much less direct. I think most people who push conspiracy theories not only have really good methods of avoiding internal intellectual conflict, but encountering cognitive dissonance is extremely uncomfortable. Excellent video on the topic BTW:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
__________________
The woods are lovely, dark and deep
but i have promises to keep
and lines to code before I sleep
And lines to code before I sleep
RussDill is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th October 2016, 08:28 AM   #282
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 13,622
Originally Posted by esspee View Post
As soon as i see suitable evidence and proof that it is real I too will change my mind.
There is suitable evidence. You are desperately trying to undermine the strength of that evidence by claiming affirmatively instead that it was all hoaxed. Since that is an affirmative attempt to explain the evidence, you have the burden to prove that, and you have utterly failed. That failure allows the evidence to remain probative in favor of authenticity. The details of your failure have been adequately explained to you: you apply an irrational, ad hoc, subjective, and entirely unsubstantiated standard of proof to the available evidence, based almost entirely on what you simply dictate should be true if the evidence were genuine. It takes very little discussion to reveal that your dicta are based largely in ignorance. Then you apply a false dilemma to the notion of believing to have disproven the claim of authenticity and expect your claim of hoax to stand by default, without having show any direct evidence whatsoever of a hoax.

Until you correct that deficiency in your argument or present a different argument, no one has any obligation to address your claim further.
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th October 2016, 08:31 AM   #283
RussDill
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,304
Originally Posted by esspee View Post
As soon as i see suitable evidence and proof that it is real I too will change my mind.
Please describe for us what plausible course of events you would accept as suitable evidence. For instance, Franky flying to your house and letting your fly around on the flyboard air is implausible, so isn't a suitable response.
__________________
The woods are lovely, dark and deep
but i have promises to keep
and lines to code before I sleep
And lines to code before I sleep
RussDill is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th October 2016, 08:40 AM   #284
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 13,622
Originally Posted by RussDill View Post
I really think the motivation is much less direct. I think most people who push conspiracy theories not only have really good methods of avoiding internal intellectual conflict, but encountering cognitive dissonance is extremely uncomfortable.
Indeed, I agree. I have a book coming out on the subject hopefully in the summer of next year.

To expand on your point and mine, some conspiracy theorists create a perceptual construct in which they are the hero. They pick some event or phenomenon upon which they can imagine a controversy and fashion a narrative in which some designated authority is the oppressor in the controversy and they are the investigator or revelator of some truth. The goal is ego reinforcement. The effectiveness of the construct depends in part upon the degree to which the conspiracist can weave actual fact into the narrative, and (more importantly) the degree to which he can bring whatever knowledge he has to bear in appearing to investigate or test that fact.

Cognitive dissonance arises when facts don't fit the constructed narrative. The common method of adapting is to imagine the contrary facts are planted or fabricated by the oppressor as disinformation, often with an overtone suggesting the oppressor is functionally omnipotent. This necessitates retreating further into the construct. Others here notate this behavior as Appeal to Conspiracy. The contradiction of the conspiracist's judgment or professions of expertise engender a congruent behavior: the conspiracist's judgment is affirmed first by doubling down on the bluff, second by diluting it as not requiring any expertise, and finally by insinuating that the genuine expert is ideologically compromised or emotionally entrenched. Again this requires a further retreat into the construct, numbering more and more people as part of the agressor group, the enabler group, or the intractable "sheeple" group.
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th October 2016, 09:09 AM   #285
esspee
black goo
 
esspee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 980
@JayUtah

"Quote:
Then it can finally be put to bed.


"You beg the question that your argument has any objective merit. Again, it's just you trying to set up your ignorant expectations as some sort of standard of proof. I asked you if you had a stronger line of reasoning, and it appears you do not."

I am not here to prove to anyone it is a hoax.
The only proof i seek is for myself, (or it being either fake or real but for certain)
I want to 'put this to bed' for myself, not for the forum or the world.

My intuition says it is fake.
My intuition tends to be right on things.
If my intuition is off, then I want to know that it is off for certain.

That is what this is about.
esspee is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th October 2016, 09:15 AM   #286
esspee
black goo
 
esspee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 980
Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Indeed, I agree. I have a book coming out on the subject hopefully in the summer of next year.

To expand on your point and mine, some conspiracy theorists create a perceptual construct in which they are the hero. They pick some event or phenomenon upon which they can imagine a controversy and fashion a narrative in which some designated authority is the oppressor in the controversy and they are the investigator or revelator of some truth. The goal is ego reinforcement. The effectiveness of the construct depends in part upon the degree to which the conspiracist can weave actual fact into the narrative, and (more importantly) the degree to which he can bring whatever knowledge he has to bear in appearing to investigate or test that fact.

Cognitive dissonance arises when facts don't fit the constructed narrative. The common method of adapting is to imagine the contrary facts are planted or fabricated by the oppressor as disinformation, often with an overtone suggesting the oppressor is functionally omnipotent. This necessitates retreating further into the construct. Others here notate this behavior as Appeal to Conspiracy. The contradiction of the conspiracist's judgment or professions of expertise engender a congruent behavior: the conspiracist's judgment is affirmed first by doubling down on the bluff, second by diluting it as not requiring any expertise, and finally by insinuating that the genuine expert is ideologically compromised or emotionally entrenched. Again this requires a further retreat into the construct, numbering more and more people as part of the agressor group, the enabler group, or the intractable "sheeple" group.

That could be a really interesting book.
And with the rampantness of conspiracy these days - timely.

My only suggestion might be to simplify the language a bit if it anything like your posts.
I mean is for mass appeal and the general public and for people like me..

But if its more of an academic thing - maybe the level of language you use here is spot on.

Serious question aside from the debate- have you written books before? Must be pretty cool to finish a huge project like that and have a book you have written in your hand.
esspee is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th October 2016, 09:23 AM   #287
Jrrarglblarg
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 12,673
My intuition says intuition is not a reliable datapoint. For instance, my intuition is that you are part of Zapata racing, here to post English language googlebait for white(ish) hat SEO.
Jrrarglblarg is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th October 2016, 09:33 AM   #288
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 13,622
Originally Posted by esspee View Post
I am not here to prove to anyone it is a hoax.
Ostensibly you are. But what you're really here to do is create the illusion that your claims have survived critical evaluation.

Quote:
I want to 'put this to bed' for myself, not for the forum or the world.
I don't believe you. You are firmly entrenched in the notion that the Flyboard Air is a hoax. You dismiss any evidence of its authenticity by the flimsiest of speculation that it may have been hoaxed. You believe it's hoaxed. You want to continue believing it's hoaxed. And you want to create the illusion that your belief has some sort of objective strength by pretending to allow others to test it. Others have tested it, and rejected it. All that has happened since then is you figuring out how to adapt to the cognitive dissonance that created.

Quote:
My intuition says it is fake.
How is that any sort of evidence anyone except you is bound to respect? How is that a basis on which to claim affirmatively that evidence is fake? We have determined that your intuition is not suitably informed in all the areas you say here that you have applied it. Uninformed intuition is indistinguishable from ignorant speculation.

Whether it's real or hoaxed is a matter of fact. You have alleged that it is hoaxed. That is a testable allegation of fact, aside from any "opinion" or "intuition" you might hold.

Quote:
If my intuition is off, then I want to know that it is off for certain.
And this forum has done so to the level of certainty that can be reasonably obtained here. You have aired your suspicions, and you have been presented with explanations for those suspicions that are both reasonable and don't require a hoax to enliven them. You simply ignore them. That evasion is hardly consistent with a profession that you simply want the question resolved one way or another, for with reasonable alternate explanations for your purported suspicions, the evidence stands unrefuted. Your evasion is far more consistent with the notion that you want to continue believing there is an objectively viable case for the Flyboard Air being a hoax.

Again the nut-job playbook has a play for this. Conspiracy theorists always believe that their very act of "questioning the official story" somehow entitles them personally to a greater degree of production from the custodians of the common narrative and a justification for a greater standard of proof than everyone else finds reasonable. UFO "researchers" seem to think they are entitled to a greater disclosure from the military. Apollo hoax proponents always think NASA is on the hook to provide more evidence than it already has. This is all part and parcel of the delusion of grandeur that conspiracism inevitably feeds.

This manufactured dilemma feeds into the construct. The custodians of the official narrative rarely recognize any special status conferred on people whose doubt has no greater basis than their uninformed intuition. Therefore the enhanced "standard" of production and "standard" of proof are rarely addressed or met. This leads the conspiracist to speculate that he is being stonewalled, that he is "onto something." More importantly, it justifies his continued digging for that "final" bit of evidence.

But here's the secret. The last thing the conspiracist wants is resolution. You don't want to know for sure whether the Flyboard Air is real or fake because your relevance depends entirely on ongoing controversy, not being right or wrong. You want to prolong the debate, because as long as there is debate you are getting the attention you seek.

If you were proven right, you'd enjoy a flash of notoriety in the pan of public attention, and then the world would move on. Frankly would fade into obscurity, and your role in the whole thing would eventually be forgotten. Similarly if you were proven wrong, you'd fade quickly into the gray soup of every other crackpot. But as long as you can pretend there's a controversy, you can enjoy an ongoing role in it.

That's why you want to keep your videos up as a "perspective" on the Flyboard Air development, even if proven wrong. It's not about whether it's real or not. It's whether you get attention or not. Waffling around on a web forum and clicking your way around the Internet isn't consistent with wanting to have the controversy "put to rest." None of that has the power to produce incontrovertible evidence, especially since you so effortlessly declare all that to be hoaxed. If you really wanted the kind of evidence that would conclusively decide the matter, you'll have to change your approach.
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th October 2016, 09:35 AM   #289
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 13,622
Originally Posted by esspee View Post
My only suggestion...
My publisher has a building full of professional editors, thank you.
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th October 2016, 09:40 AM   #290
esspee
black goo
 
esspee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 980
Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
My publisher has a building full of professional editors, thank you.
lol


Feel free to use me as a case study for your book on conspiracy-tards.

My slow stubborn and unshifting descent into this personal delusion is well documented.

I would appreciate the attention.
Of course.

Last edited by esspee; 13th October 2016 at 09:51 AM.
esspee is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th October 2016, 09:45 AM   #291
esspee
black goo
 
esspee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 980
Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Ostensibly you are. But what you're really here to do is create the illusion that your claims have survived critical evaluation.



I don't believe you. You are firmly entrenched in the notion that the Flyboard Air is a hoax. You dismiss any evidence of its authenticity by the flimsiest of speculation that it may have been hoaxed. You believe it's hoaxed. You want to continue believing it's hoaxed. And you want to create the illusion that your belief has some sort of objective strength by pretending to allow others to test it. Others have tested it, and rejected it. All that has happened since then is you figuring out how to adapt to the cognitive dissonance that created.



How is that any sort of evidence anyone except you is bound to respect? How is that a basis on which to claim affirmatively that evidence is fake? We have determined that your intuition is not suitably informed in all the areas you say here that you have applied it. Uninformed intuition is indistinguishable from ignorant speculation.

Whether it's real or hoaxed is a matter of fact. You have alleged that it is hoaxed. That is a testable allegation of fact, aside from any "opinion" or "intuition" you might hold.



And this forum has done so to the level of certainty that can be reasonably obtained here. You have aired your suspicions, and you have been presented with explanations for those suspicions that are both reasonable and don't require a hoax to enliven them. You simply ignore them. That evasion is hardly consistent with a profession that you simply want the question resolved one way or another, for with reasonable alternate explanations for your purported suspicions, the evidence stands unrefuted. Your evasion is far more consistent with the notion that you want to continue believing there is an objectively viable case for the Flyboard Air being a hoax.

Again the nut-job playbook has a play for this. Conspiracy theorists always believe that their very act of "questioning the official story" somehow entitles them personally to a greater degree of production from the custodians of the common narrative and a justification for a greater standard of proof than everyone else finds reasonable. UFO "researchers" seem to think they are entitled to a greater disclosure from the military. Apollo hoax proponents always think NASA is on the hook to provide more evidence than it already has. This is all part and parcel of the delusion of grandeur that conspiracism inevitably feeds.

This manufactured dilemma feeds into the construct. The custodians of the official narrative rarely recognize any special status conferred on people whose doubt has no greater basis than their uninformed intuition. Therefore the enhanced "standard" of production and "standard" of proof are rarely addressed or met. This leads the conspiracist to speculate that he is being stonewalled, that he is "onto something." More importantly, it justifies his continued digging for that "final" bit of evidence.

But here's the secret. The last thing the conspiracist wants is resolution. You don't want to know for sure whether the Flyboard Air is real or fake because your relevance depends entirely on ongoing controversy, not being right or wrong. You want to prolong the debate, because as long as there is debate you are getting the attention you seek.

If you were proven right, you'd enjoy a flash of notoriety in the pan of public attention, and then the world would move on. Frankly would fade into obscurity, and your role in the whole thing would eventually be forgotten. Similarly if you were proven wrong, you'd fade quickly into the gray soup of every other crackpot. But as long as you can pretend there's a controversy, you can enjoy an ongoing role in it.

That's why you want to keep your videos up as a "perspective" on the Flyboard Air development, even if proven wrong. It's not about whether it's real or not. It's whether you get attention or not. Waffling around on a web forum and clicking your way around the Internet isn't consistent with wanting to have the controversy "put to rest." None of that has the power to produce incontrovertible evidence, especially since you so effortlessly declare all that to be hoaxed. If you really wanted the kind of evidence that would conclusively decide the matter, you'll have to change your approach.

All I am going to say for now is - that that post was excellent.

You may even have a future customer of your book sitting here.
esspee is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th October 2016, 09:53 AM   #292
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 13,622
Originally Posted by esspee View Post
All I am going to say for now is - that that post was excellent.

You may even have a future customer of your book sitting here.
Flattering one's critics as a method of currying for less rigor in criticism is also a play in the conspiracism playbook.

You're claiming you have certain motives in posting here. I have noted wherein your arguments don't fit that purported motive and suggested a different motive that better fits your argument. Do you have a rejoinder? Is your praise tantamount to conceding your point? Or are you just trying to distract?
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th October 2016, 10:09 AM   #293
esspee
black goo
 
esspee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 980
Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Flattering one's critics as a method of currying for less rigor in criticism is also a play in the conspiracism playbook.

You're claiming you have certain motives in posting here. I have noted wherein your arguments don't fit that purported motive and suggested a different motive that better fits your argument. Do you have a rejoinder? Is your praise tantamount to conceding your point? Or are you just trying to distract?
No - I read a lot of stuff online.
And its rare that i laugh the whole way through reading something.

This is not a sideways insult.

I was laughing because it was good stuff.


No grand deception at play on my part.
esspee is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th October 2016, 10:17 AM   #294
esspee
black goo
 
esspee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 980
Originally Posted by RussDill View Post
I really think the motivation is much less direct. I think most people who push conspiracy theories not only have really good methods of avoiding internal intellectual conflict, but encountering cognitive dissonance is extremely uncomfortable. Excellent video on the topic BTW:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
I watched 13 minutes of it.

I would have watched it till the end but i have the washing machine in the same room on the go so concentrating on dialogue is taxing.

I will watch it all later though.

I will say this - the author of the video might have done better to just do his video on as an example of how groups effect individuals. And how group perceptions are created and how the reality of individuals in a group are warped. ie. not just using 'maipulaive groups' as an example - because all groups are manipulative.
Smae goes for the more individual stuff about individuals world views and dissonence.
It applies to everyone. Not just a few.
No one is more immune or has less of it going on.

Everything he has said so far applies to any group, any person, and any world view - no matter how sober or balanced or 'informed' the group person or belief might be.

I guess what i am saying is - to a large degree all of us are full of crap, and all groups manipulate the individuals who make it up ( and their world view) and all of us have vast mental networks of bias and affirmation and assumption and crap.
This video so far did well to examine that - but kind of seemed to miss out that it effects all of us all the time.

It is my belief that when it comes down to it, that groups, individuals, or outlooks are all the same in blueprint.

ALthough - to be fair - I am only 13 mins into the video.
Thanks for posting it.

Did you make it?

Last edited by esspee; 13th October 2016 at 10:21 AM.
esspee is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th October 2016, 10:55 AM   #295
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 13,622
Originally Posted by esspee View Post
No grand deception at play on my part.
Then why am I still waiting for answers to the points I brought up in the post you find so excellent?
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th October 2016, 11:19 AM   #296
smartcooky
Philosopher
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 6,023
Originally Posted by esspee View Post
Lets lighten the mood in here.

Here is the latest - and maybe greatest - Zapata Flyboard Air video yet.

Its the Florida demonstration but from a new angle,

CHeck it out

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMmGux8Jw1o
There is no doubt that he is getting more and more confident flying the thing.
__________________
► 9/11 was a terrorist attack by Islamic extremists; 12 Apollo astronauts really did walk on the Moon; JFK was assassinated by Lee Harvey Oswald,who acted alone.
► Never underestimate the power of the Internet to lend unwarranted credibility to the colossally misinformed. - Jay Utah
► Heisenberg's Law - The weirdness of the Universe is inversely proportional to the scale at which you observe it, or not.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th October 2016, 11:22 AM   #297
esspee
black goo
 
esspee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 980
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
There is no doubt that he is getting more and more confident flying the thing.
In my opinion this is easily the best video so far.

No distraction from changing viewpoints, no music, just good quality footage taken from one source.
esspee is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th October 2016, 11:29 AM   #298
smartcooky
Philosopher
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 6,023
Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
You were not compelled against your will to believe it. That's not at all consistent with your behavior here. Your behavior is more consistent with someone who decided ahead of time it was a hoax and is trying his very best to backfill a case toward that conclusion. If you were so "gutted" by Franky's alleged betrayal, it makes more sense that you would be relieved to discover that all your claimed suspicions have reasonable explanations that don't require it to be a hoax. But you cling to the hoax explanation, despite all rational alternatives, like a drowning man to a buoy.

... and unfortunately for espee, that buoy turned out to be a lead weight!!
__________________
► 9/11 was a terrorist attack by Islamic extremists; 12 Apollo astronauts really did walk on the Moon; JFK was assassinated by Lee Harvey Oswald,who acted alone.
► Never underestimate the power of the Internet to lend unwarranted credibility to the colossally misinformed. - Jay Utah
► Heisenberg's Law - The weirdness of the Universe is inversely proportional to the scale at which you observe it, or not.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th October 2016, 03:35 PM   #299
EHocking
Philosopher
 
EHocking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,353
Originally Posted by esspee View Post
...I am not here to prove to anyone it is a hoax.
The only proof i seek is for myself, (or it being either fake or real but for certain)
I want to 'put this to bed' for myself, not for the forum or the world....
Rubbish - just read your own press and you'll see that this is exactly what you think you're doing.

Originally Posted by esspee View Post
...I think that now more people will start to make videos about why they think it is a hoax. And more eyes will be looking into the strange aspects of the story.

I think it will be busted fairly soon.
Originally Posted by esspee View Post
...I genuinely believe that this is very likely a hoax. ...
BUt i think it is hoax - and i think it will come out as such.
...I predict that this will mean that the hoax (if it is one) will be busted pretty soon.
... I think the doubters will reach critical mass soon and someone with inside knowledge or who sees something I have missed will bust it open.
Originally Posted by esspee View Post
My current % is 80% hoax 20% real.
Originally Posted by esspee View Post
...In this thread i have outsourced the intelligence and knowledge base that will be needed to break this hoax...
And these were just from the first two pages of this split thread.
I couldn't be bothered looking at the original thread - you know, the one in Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology that you had to abandon because you have no scientific or technological basis to your belief.
__________________
"A closed mouth gathers no feet"
"Ignorance is a renewable resource" P.J.O'Rourke
Prayer: "a sophisticated way of pleading with thunderstorms." T.Pratchett
"It's all god's handiwork, there's little quality control applied", Fox26 reporter on Texas granite
Forum Birdwatching Webpage
EHocking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th October 2016, 05:21 PM   #300
RussDill
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,304
Originally Posted by esspee View Post
I watched 13 minutes of it.

I would have watched it till the end but i have the washing machine in the same room on the go so concentrating on dialogue is taxing.

I will watch it all later though.

I will say this - the author of the video might have done better to just do his video on as an example of how groups effect individuals. And how group perceptions are created and how the reality of individuals in a group are warped. ie. not just using 'maipulaive groups' as an example - because all groups are manipulative.
Smae goes for the more individual stuff about individuals world views and dissonence.
It applies to everyone. Not just a few.
No one is more immune or has less of it going on.

Everything he has said so far applies to any group, any person, and any world view - no matter how sober or balanced or 'informed' the group person or belief might be.

I guess what i am saying is - to a large degree all of us are full of crap, and all groups manipulate the individuals who make it up ( and their world view) and all of us have vast mental networks of bias and affirmation and assumption and crap.
This video so far did well to examine that - but kind of seemed to miss out that it effects all of us all the time.

It is my belief that when it comes down to it, that groups, individuals, or outlooks are all the same in blueprint.

ALthough - to be fair - I am only 13 mins into the video.
Thanks for posting it.

Did you make it?
Not my video. It's concentrating on groups, but I think the information on ideas applies pretty well. When I initially learned about cognitive dissonance it was especially interesting to me not because it explained other's behavior, but because it explained my own behavior and thoughts.
__________________
The woods are lovely, dark and deep
but i have promises to keep
and lines to code before I sleep
And lines to code before I sleep
RussDill is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th October 2016, 07:18 PM   #301
Drs_Res
NWO Acorn Hoarder
 
Drs_Res's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: N 34 3 8 / W 118 14 33
Posts: 2,100
360 degree video from one of the jet skis during the world record flight:

https://youtu.be/fc6KoS4izZo

Available in HD.
__________________
If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning.
Drs_Res is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th October 2016, 05:43 AM   #302
smartcooky
Philosopher
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 6,023
Originally Posted by Drs_Res View Post
360 degree video from one of the jet skis during the world record flight:

https://youtu.be/fc6KoS4izZo

Available in HD.

That is astonishing. You can put your mouse on the video screen, left click and drag the field of view around to anywhere you like while the video continues to run. I didn't realise this could be done on youtube!

That would be near impossible to fake
__________________
► 9/11 was a terrorist attack by Islamic extremists; 12 Apollo astronauts really did walk on the Moon; JFK was assassinated by Lee Harvey Oswald,who acted alone.
► Never underestimate the power of the Internet to lend unwarranted credibility to the colossally misinformed. - Jay Utah
► Heisenberg's Law - The weirdness of the Universe is inversely proportional to the scale at which you observe it, or not.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th October 2016, 05:59 AM   #303
Tolls
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 3,448
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
That would be near impossible to fake
We've had lots of stuff that's nigh on impossible to fake, but that hasn't stopped esspee...
Tolls is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th October 2016, 07:58 AM   #304
Nay_Sayer
I say nay!
 
Nay_Sayer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Long Island
Posts: 3,232
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
That is astonishing. You can put your mouse on the video screen, left click and drag the field of view around to anywhere you like while the video continues to run. I didn't realise this could be done on youtube!

That would be near impossible to fake
Adobe Photoshop combined with holographic projection and 5 unseen helicopters.

The obvious answer is of course youtube has now joined in on the con.
__________________
I am 100% confident all psychics and mediums are frauds.
----------------------------------------------
Proud woo denier
----------------------------------------------
“That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.” -Christopher Hitchens-
Nay_Sayer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th October 2016, 08:16 AM   #305
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 13,622
Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
We've had lots of stuff that's nigh on impossible to fake, but that hasn't stopped esspee...
Indeed, if one has no experience in video production and post-production and has never experienced the limitations that apply to those exercises, one can speculate endlessly about the magic that "must" have happened to achieve some effect.
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th October 2016, 08:48 AM   #306
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 13,622
Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
Rubbish - just read your own press and you'll see that this is exactly what you think you're doing.
Early in the game, yes. But the nut-job playbook has a set of plays that are equivalent to the punt. After a while the claimant realizes his arguments are not convincing his audience. He has to come up with a face-saving explanation for that, something besides the arguments themselves being flimsy and illogical.

One play is to portray the critics as emotionally or ideologically entrenched, or closed-minded in some other way. Another is to deny that there was ever any attempt to prove anything: he's "just asking questions" or "just covering all the bases." Conspiracists style themselves as inquisitive skeptics, guardians of society who hold powerful interests accountable. When the proof fails for the conspiracy theory, they claim to still maintain a "healthy skepticism" and pat themselves on the back for rigorously testing claims, regardless of the outcome.

All rubbish, of course. The "tests" a conspiracy theory proposes to apply to the conventional narrative rarely have any logical or factual basis.
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th October 2016, 08:54 AM   #307
esspee
black goo
 
esspee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 980
Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Indeed, if one has no experience in video production and post-production and has never experienced the limitations that apply to those exercises, one can speculate endlessly about the magic that "must" have happened to achieve some effect.
Do you have such experience?

If so....

Are you saying a 360degree video like that can not be faked?
Really?


Also have you watched it? It not very good quality.
esspee is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th October 2016, 09:04 AM   #308
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 13,622
Originally Posted by esspee View Post
Do you have such experience?
Yes, both in documentary and feature films, from pre-production conceptual work through production and post-production.

Quote:
Are you saying a 360degree video like that can not be faked?
I've made no representations about whether any particular video can or cannot be faked. In any case the question for any specific example would not be whether it can be faked, but whether it was faked. Conspiracy theorists always confuse those two things.

My point in bringing up video production was that you have based your entire argument on speculation regarding what is possible or impossible in fields in which you have no expertise or experience. Why would anyone be obliged to respect your judgment? Why would that judgment be in any way probative?

Quote:
Also have you watched it? It not very good quality.
Are you claiming it was faked?

Last edited by JayUtah; 14th October 2016 at 09:22 AM.
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th October 2016, 09:11 AM   #309
RussDill
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,304
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
That is astonishing. You can put your mouse on the video screen, left click and drag the field of view around to anywhere you like while the video continues to run. I didn't realise this could be done on youtube!

That would be near impossible to fake
It's actually best viewed with a VR headset, even just google cardboard. It's quite an experience
__________________
The woods are lovely, dark and deep
but i have promises to keep
and lines to code before I sleep
And lines to code before I sleep
RussDill is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th October 2016, 09:39 AM   #310
esspee
black goo
 
esspee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 980
Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Yes, both in documentary and feature films, from pre-production conceptual work through production and post-production.

Do you have much experience in digital effects?

I've made no representations about whether any particular video can or cannot be faked. In any case the question for any specific example would not be whether it can be faked, but whether it was faked. Conspiracy theorists always confuse those two things.

So basically it can be used as evidence of it being real despite the possibility that it can be fake footage?
So a photograph of fairies must be accepted as evidence that they to be real unless someone can prove the photo was fake - not that it could be a fake?
Am i missing something here.
If the footage can be faked - then how is it solid evidence?


My point in bringing up video production was that you have based your entire argument on speculation regarding what is possible or impossible in fields in which you have no expertise or experience. Why would anyone be obliged to respect your judgment? Why would that judgment be in any way probative?



Are you claiming it was faked?
At the moment - i think it is a hoax.

For it to be a hoax all of the footage must be faked or doctored.
Or misrepresented.

Its as simple as that - all of the footage is illusion - of the flyboard air (as depicted) is real.

I am 90% in favour of it being a fake - therefore i am 90% in favour of the footage all being fake in some way.

10% is the allowance for the possibility that i am delusional and unable to perceive my own delusion. (Fish can't see water)
esspee is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th October 2016, 09:49 AM   #311
The Greater Fool
Illuminator
 
The Greater Fool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Scottsdale, AZ, USA, North America, Earth, Sol, Milky Way
Posts: 3,064
Originally Posted by esspee View Post
At the moment - i think it is a hoax.

For it to be a hoax all of the footage must be faked or doctored.
Or misrepresented.

Its as simple as that - all of the footage is illusion - of the flyboard air (as depicted) is real.

I am 90% in favour of it being a fake - therefore i am 90% in favour of the footage all being fake in some way.

10% is the allowance for the possibility that i am delusional and unable to perceive my own delusion. (Fish can't see water)
Not only would all the video necessarily be fake, but anyone at any of the locales it was demonstrated would have to be kept from such reporting, or the internet would have to prevent views.

The conspiracy is getting larger and larger.

What is the motivation for all these people and companies to forward the conspiracy? Certainly there isn't enough money that can result from this scam to spread around. How many reputations will be destroyed to give Franky a temporary ego boost?

Not a single piece of contrary evidence has been revealed, no matter how tentative.

The breadth and scope of this hoax are beyond reason, not that any of this will sway you.

10-1 odds? Let's double it. Put your money were your mouth is... $10 gets you $200. That you won't make the wager demonstrates your faith in your premise.
__________________
- "Who is the Greater Fool? The fool? Or the one arguing with the Fool?" [Various; Uknown]
- "The only way to win is not to play." [Tsig quoting 'War Games']
The Greater Fool is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th October 2016, 10:11 AM   #312
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 13,622
Originally Posted by esspee View Post
Do you have much experience in digital effects?
Extensive. Credits include Hawking's The Fate of the Universe, The Core (with apologies to the geology community), and a Spider-Man promo shot in my city. All these used combinations of purely digital effects and digital effects combined with live-action elements.

Quote:
So basically it can be used as evidence of it being real despite the possibility that it can be fake footage?
Of course, as with any other evidence. A witness statement, for example, can be probative even though it is possible that the witness may be lying. If the evidence is to be impeached with an affirmative claim that the witness is lying, proof of the actuality of the lie must be produced, not just the abstract statement that it's not impossible he is lying.

Similarly photographic evidence purporting to be of an event can be considered evidence of the authenticity of the event. If that evidence is to be impeached with an affirmative claim that it was fabricated or altered, then the putative impeacher bears the burden to show evidence of fabrication or alteration, not merely the abstract statement that it's not impossible to fake evidence.

Conspiracy theorists never seem to understand how evidence actually works.

Quote:
At the moment - i think it is a hoax.
Do you have any evidence to support that belief?

Quote:
Its as simple as that - all of the footage is illusion - of the flyboard air (as depicted) is real.
But we've dealt with that. Your argument thus far has simply been the impotent statement that it could be faked. You provide no credible evidence that it was. The argument you do provide in favor of fakery is simply that it fails to meet your uninformed expectations for what real footage should look like. Further, your speculation regarding how it may have been faked runs afoul of your ignorance of the practical limitations in video production. Several examples of this have been mentioned to you, but you seem unimpressed.

Quote:
I am 90% in favour of it being a fake - therefore i am 90% in favour of the footage all being fake in some way.
This sounds like you're arguing that the footage must be faked because the Flyboard Air itself is a fake. That's as illogical and irrational as an argument can possibly get. That's like claiming alibi evidence must be fake because you have concluded the defendant is guilty.

This sort of blatantly biased proposition is why no one takes you seriously.

Quote:
10% is the allowance for the possibility that i am delusional and unable to perceive my own delusion. (Fish can't see water)[/b]
Straw man. No one is claiming you are delusional. They are simply claiming your belief lacks a rational basis. Attempting to shame critics away from questioning your claims -- such as by amplifying the social consequence of their criticism -- is, as you can imagine, a play out of the nut-job playbook. You make it sound as if your critics are accusing you of some sort of mental disorder so that they seem mean-spirited for doing so. You really are so very predictable.
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th October 2016, 11:15 AM   #313
esspee
black goo
 
esspee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 980
Originally Posted by The Greater Fool View Post
Not only would all the video necessarily be fake, but anyone at any of the locales it was demonstrated would have to be kept from such reporting, or the internet would have to prevent views.

The conspiracy is getting larger and larger.

What is the motivation for all these people and companies to forward the conspiracy? Certainly there isn't enough money that can result from this scam to spread around. How many reputations will be destroyed to give Franky a temporary ego boost?

Not a single piece of contrary evidence has been revealed, no matter how tentative.

The breadth and scope of this hoax are beyond reason, not that any of this will sway you.

10-1 odds? Let's double it. Put your money were your mouth is... $10 gets you $200. That you won't make the wager demonstrates your faith in your premise.
okay - how is such a bet done?

Would need a deadline too. Like if it is fake it might take a while for it to come out.

But I am well up for a bet.

i have to watch how much money I play with - as I owe some very dangerous men money ( the local council)
But at 20-1 i'd happily put up $30 today.

Last edited by esspee; 14th October 2016 at 11:26 AM.
esspee is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th October 2016, 11:31 AM   #314
The Greater Fool
Illuminator
 
The Greater Fool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Scottsdale, AZ, USA, North America, Earth, Sol, Milky Way
Posts: 3,064
Originally Posted by esspee View Post
okay - how is such a bet done?

Would need a deadline too. Like if it is fake it might take a while for it to come out.

But I am well up for a bet.

i have to watch how much money I play with - as I owe some very dangerous men money ( the local council)
But at 20-1 i'd happily put up $30
I guess we'd need to pound it all out. I've never done such online, so I ask help of the greater intellects about.
__________________
- "Who is the Greater Fool? The fool? Or the one arguing with the Fool?" [Various; Uknown]
- "The only way to win is not to play." [Tsig quoting 'War Games']
The Greater Fool is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th October 2016, 12:05 PM   #315
smartcooky
Philosopher
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 6,023
Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Early in the game, yes. But the nut-job playbook has a set of plays that are equivalent to the punt
Yep. No coach in his right mind is going call a running or passing play on 4th and 25!!
__________________
► 9/11 was a terrorist attack by Islamic extremists; 12 Apollo astronauts really did walk on the Moon; JFK was assassinated by Lee Harvey Oswald,who acted alone.
► Never underestimate the power of the Internet to lend unwarranted credibility to the colossally misinformed. - Jay Utah
► Heisenberg's Law - The weirdness of the Universe is inversely proportional to the scale at which you observe it, or not.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th October 2016, 12:10 PM   #316
Nay_Sayer
I say nay!
 
Nay_Sayer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Long Island
Posts: 3,232
Originally Posted by The Greater Fool View Post
Not only would all the video necessarily be fake, but anyone at any of the locales it was demonstrated would have to be kept from such reporting, or the internet would have to prevent views.

The conspiracy is getting larger and larger.

What is the motivation for all these people and companies to forward the conspiracy? Certainly there isn't enough money that can result from this scam to spread around. How many reputations will be destroyed to give Franky a temporary ego boost?

Not a single piece of contrary evidence has been revealed, no matter how tentative.

The breadth and scope of this hoax are beyond reason, not that any of this will sway you.

10-1 odds? Let's double it. Put your money were your mouth is... $10 gets you $200. That you won't make the wager demonstrates your faith in your premise.
For CT's there is no limit, Everything must be interconnected for the whole of their hypothesis to work, Multiple conspiracies within the main idea are necessity.

It almost seems the more elaborate the hoax becomes the more true it must be for them.
__________________
I am 100% confident all psychics and mediums are frauds.
----------------------------------------------
Proud woo denier
----------------------------------------------
“That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.” -Christopher Hitchens-
Nay_Sayer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th October 2016, 12:30 PM   #317
The Greater Fool
Illuminator
 
The Greater Fool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Scottsdale, AZ, USA, North America, Earth, Sol, Milky Way
Posts: 3,064
Espee deposits $30, The Greater Fool deposits $570 into an online escrow account (such as Paypal), for a total of $600. On 30 November 2016 at 12:00 noon PST a 3 person panel will respond to the question "Is the Flyboard Air a hoax?" If a majority answer in the affirmative, $600 is released to Espee. Otherwise funds are released to a charity.

Notes:

The 3 person panel will be selected from members of this forum, preferably participants in this thread, mutually agreed upon by Espee and The Greater Fool;

The charity for a deadlock will be mutually agreed up by Espee and The Greater Fool;

The charity for an Espee loss will be determined solely by The Greater Fool at the time of disbursement;

Espee has previously stated that Flyboard Air should be revealed as a hoax by October 2016. An end date of 30 November 2016 allows an additional month for the question to be resolved.
__________________
- "Who is the Greater Fool? The fool? Or the one arguing with the Fool?" [Various; Uknown]
- "The only way to win is not to play." [Tsig quoting 'War Games']
The Greater Fool is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th October 2016, 12:59 PM   #318
esspee
black goo
 
esspee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 980
Originally Posted by The Greater Fool View Post
Espee deposits $30, The Greater Fool deposits $570 into an online escrow account (such as Paypal), for a total of $600. On 30 November 2016 at 12:00 noon PST a 3 person panel will respond to the question "Is the Flyboard Air a hoax?" If a majority answer in the affirmative, $600 is released to Espee. Otherwise funds are released to a charity.

Notes:

The 3 person panel will be selected from members of this forum, preferably participants in this thread, mutually agreed upon by Espee and The Greater Fool;

The charity for a deadlock will be mutually agreed up by Espee and The Greater Fool;

The charity for an Espee loss will be determined solely by The Greater Fool at the time of disbursement;

Espee has previously stated that Flyboard Air should be revealed as a hoax by October 2016. An end date of 30 November 2016 allows an additional month for the question to be resolved.

Although the first video I ever saw was this one - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNKRxsNyOho in early may 2015,

the first flyboard air videos came out around early April. April the 9th was the release date of the "flyboard Air test 1" video.

So how about we have that as the date - 2017. They have kept th hoax up for 6 months if it is a hoax - but for a year? Well i think too many people doubt it now. So even i admit it wold be super hard for them to keep such a hoax up for a year. Especially with me on the case.

TO MAKE IT FAIR - I will put the $30 in the special account this weekend, but you do not have to put any money in at all. Or if you like just match my $30 as a deposit.

You putting 600 bucks in an account for such a long time is just silly - you might need it for an emergency or something.
I trust you to pay up if you are proven wrong.

As for the jury - I think we need a panel bigger than 3. How about on April the 9th 2017 i choose 3 people - you choose 3 people, and then to make it 7 one admin gets a vote too.

I also suggest that at any time - if i am completely convinced it is real due to new evidence - i retain the right to give you the $30 early.
And if the entire world is convinced it is a hoax including yourself - and you wish to pay early, you can too. But neither one of us has to pay until April the 9th. Even if Franky hiself comes on tv and says it is haox.

April the 9th is the date.

I am serious about you not putting in $600 - but you could match my $30 as a deposit if you wish to

I think I will buy one of these with my winnings.




I am not willing to this bet for 30 days time. Its basically April the 9th - take it or leave it. This is not an easy hoax to bust. But like i say - you do not have to front a single dime. And I will stump up my whole $30 stake this weekend.

Last edited by esspee; 14th October 2016 at 01:06 PM.
esspee is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th October 2016, 01:02 PM   #319
esspee
black goo
 
esspee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 980
Just to be clear - I am not betting for charity money.
No charities.

You win i pay you, I win - you pay me.

Draw - then no one pays anyone.

You know - a proper bet.

(although i do not see how a draw can be possible with a jury of 7)

Last edited by esspee; 14th October 2016 at 01:07 PM.
esspee is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th October 2016, 01:13 PM   #320
The Greater Fool
Illuminator
 
The Greater Fool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Scottsdale, AZ, USA, North America, Earth, Sol, Milky Way
Posts: 3,064
I have no objection to the following points:

1. 9 April 2017;
2. When the money is put up on my side;

As for the judging, I think 6 people is a burden on too many people. Additionally, I don't think a moderator could be involved. I'd bet there is something in their agreement that prevents it. Again, 3 mutually agreed people, members of this forum that have participated in this thread should be adequate.

As a starting point, anyone on the last 2 pages of this thread would be acceptable to me. Particularly JayUtah, whom you seem to hold in high regard.

ETA: Re: Charities.
You win, you may do what you wish with the proceeds.
Likewise if I win. My winnings will go directly to charity;
In the case of a draw, all funds should go to charity. Since it doesn't appear we are actually putting funds up front into escrow, then a draw would be no bet, no play, no pay.
__________________
- "Who is the Greater Fool? The fool? Or the one arguing with the Fool?" [Various; Uknown]
- "The only way to win is not to play." [Tsig quoting 'War Games']

Last edited by The Greater Fool; 14th October 2016 at 01:15 PM.
The Greater Fool is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:11 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.