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Old 18th November 2016, 09:28 PM   #201
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
The Sessions appointment has me wondering if I made the wrong bet on Trump pursuing prosecution of Clinton. He's in the background but he's bosom buddies, politically, with Bannon/Bossie/Coulter - the troika of Hillary Hate.
My bet is that he'll keep that option in his back pocket until he needs a distraction from something else he's doing.
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Old 18th November 2016, 09:41 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
My bet is that he'll keep that option in his back pocket until he needs a distraction from something else he's doing.
I think that depends on who you mean by "he". I can see both Sessions and Trump using the distraction. Sessions, no doubt, has some interesting programs of his own he'd like to quietly implement. Trump? He'll have a conflict of interest or other scandal every week. Plus, he will stay with the girl he brought to the dance. When in doubt, shout "Crooked Hillary!". The headlines could read "Trump unilaterally gifts SS Ronald Reagan to North Korea" and ConnieAnn Kellway will hold a presser to talk about Hillary's dry cleaning expenditures in 2009.
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Old 18th November 2016, 09:52 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
I think that depends on who you mean by "he". I can see both Sessions and Trump using the distraction. Sessions, no doubt, has some interesting programs of his own he'd like to quietly implement. Trump? He'll have a conflict of interest or other scandal every week. Plus, he will stay with the girl he brought to the dance. When in doubt, shout "Crooked Hillary!". The headlines could read "Trump unilaterally gifts SS Ronald Reagan to North Korea" and ConnieAnn Kellway will hold a presser to talk about Hillary's dry cleaning expenditures in 2009.
I think the girl he brought to the dance with the Sessions pick as AG is immigration crackdown. He will have to fight with the Paul Ryan wing of the GOP to attempt to get his economic agenda enacted and his non-interventionist foreign policy promise is going to be the lie it was easily called out as. You don't bring a hyper-interventionist like Flynn along if you're not planning on intensifying your presence in the Middle East plus every one of his proposed appointees believes that Muslim=Terrorist. Not being able to deliver on economics and not be willing to deliver foreign policy, all he'll have is immigration crackdown to give his base.
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Old 19th November 2016, 11:50 PM   #204
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I'd say there's a difference. Not all states have hate-crime legislation. Statistics from those states won't show any rise in hate-crimes.
Looks like there'll be unfunny hole in data.

Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
You sitll haven't answered my question.
Which one? About similarity of posts or I missed another one?
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Old 21st November 2016, 09:41 AM   #205
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How many of these "attacks" have been proven to be commited by emboldened Trump supporters? So far the ones I've seen solved so far have been either liars or dumb teenagers.
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Old 21st November 2016, 10:05 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by Klimax View Post
Which one? About similarity of posts or I missed another one?
Here:

Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Originally Posted by Klimax View Post
Quite different statement from your original post...

And in what way are they related?
You responded that you confused me with someone else but given your subsequent responses I'm not sure what you're saying anymore.
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Old 21st November 2016, 12:34 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Here:



You responded that you confused me with someone else but given your subsequent responses I'm not sure what you're saying anymore.
Well, I misread your question. ETA+D: I don't think your question anymore as I was mistaken and thus no answer can be made. Can't answer something which doesn't really exist. (But general answer would be "part of conversation")
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Old 21st November 2016, 12:37 PM   #208
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Originally Posted by Klimax View Post
Well, I misread your question. Too bad real question doesn't make any sense. (Unlike the one I thought I saw)
...again, I have no idea what you're saying? Which question makes no sense, and why? Why is it so hard to respond to this?
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Old 24th November 2016, 01:26 PM   #209
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
...again, I have no idea what you're saying? Which question makes no sense, and why? Why is it so hard to respond to this?
Damn it. I rethought my post and edited it. Too bad it was just a minute after you saw it and replied to it.

And just spotted word is missing as well in it:
"I don't think your question applies anymore"...
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Old 26th November 2016, 10:11 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Given that US LEA don't bother to maintain proper stats on hate crimes this effectively isn't possible.
The FBI is receiving enough information for them to conclude that there was a 67% increase of hate crimes against Muslims in 2015.

The most reliable data I could find pertaining to hate crime trends after the election is from South Poverty Law Center. According to their most recent article on this topic, hate crimes increased the first few days after the election and have stabilized around their previous levels. They admit their methodologies are not the most scientific. As catsmate eluded above, hate crime statistic gathering needs much improvement. I wonder what the fate of hate crime statistics will be under the Trump administration?

I theorize that this temporary increase in hate crimes was in part due to the media who repeatedly painted Trump and his administration as racist. The tactics that the media used to pigeonhole Trump as a racist were ill-advised. A forum member even cited a scientific study that outlined the most effective ways to combat racism, and it wasn't the strategy that the media imposed. Even WEBB DuBois thought that education was the proper way to rid a culture of racism.

Frustrated people in America viewed these accusations of racism against Trump in the media regularly and used that as a rubber stamp on directing their frustration/hate at a particular group that they felt was partially to blame for their situation. Since the media portrayed Trump openly participating in racist behavior, then it was acceptable for them as citizens to act on racist behavior.

We can probably all agree that the various messages from Trump about "stopping" these behaviors, and coming together as a nation, as well as various law enforcement agencies reminding the public that hate crimes would be prosecuted is what caused the trend to retreat to previous levels

TLDR: The media created the environment for racism to flourish and then demanded that Trump stop it.
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Old 26th November 2016, 10:13 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by Caper View Post
How many of these "attacks" have been proven to be commited by emboldened Trump supporters? So far the ones I've seen solved so far have been either liars or dumb teenagers.
Check out the link I posted above this post. It contains the most reliable data I could find that attempts to answer your question.
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Old 26th November 2016, 11:22 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by ServiceSoon View Post
The FBI is receiving enough information for them to conclude that there was a 67% increase of hate crimes against Muslims in 2015.

The most reliable data I could find pertaining to hate crime trends after the election is from South Poverty Law Center. According to their most recent article on this topic, hate crimes increased the first few days after the election and have stabilized around their previous levels. They admit their methodologies are not the most scientific. As catsmate eluded above, hate crime statistic gathering needs much improvement. I wonder what the fate of hate crime statistics will be under the Trump administration?

I theorize that this temporary increase in hate crimes was in part due to the media who repeatedly painted Trump and his administration as racist. The tactics that the media used to pigeonhole Trump as a racist were ill-advised. A forum member even cited a scientific study that outlined the most effective ways to combat racism, and it wasn't the strategy that the media imposed. Even WEBB DuBois thought that education was the proper way to rid a culture of racism.

Frustrated people in America viewed these accusations of racism against Trump in the media regularly and used that as a rubber stamp on directing their frustration/hate at a particular group that they felt was partially to blame for their situation. Since the media portrayed Trump openly participating in racist behavior, then it was acceptable for them as citizens to act on racist behavior.

We can probably all agree that the various messages from Trump about "stopping" these behaviors, and coming together as a nation, as well as various law enforcement agencies reminding the public that hate crimes would be prosecuted is what caused the trend to retreat to previous levels

TLDR: The media created the environment for racism to flourish and then demanded that Trump stop it.

The media wasn't so much portraying Trump as openly participating in racist behavior as they were reporting him openly participating in racist and other highly bigoted behavior.

It isn't the media's fault that Trump said Mexico was sending rapists and murders. It isn't the media's fault that Trump said the judge in his being sued for his fraudulent activities couldn't be fair because of his ancestry (which is textbook racism). It isn't the media's fault that Trump doesn't want black people counting his money and does want Jews counting his money. It isn't the media's fault that he racially discriminated in housing.

Now, I think that the manner and wording media used focusing on these things and calling even more racism did not help, but it's patently obvious that people supporting Trump in spite of his racist and otherwise bigoted actions emboldened racists as well.

As for Trump saying 'stop it', that's nice. However, it isn't as if we don't* have a baseline for Trump being actually upset at something. I'd be much happier if he refuted the bigots with the same level of hostility he rebuffs a homeowner who won't sell to him, a reporter who asks him fair questions, or the cast of a musical calling for equal protection to remain in place.

And, you know, didn't have people like Bannon as his inside circle.

*Forgot this earlier.
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Old 26th November 2016, 07:12 PM   #213
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Originally Posted by ServiceSoon View Post
Check out the link I posted above this post. It contains the most reliable data I could find that attempts to answer your question.
Thanks for trying to answer the question in a fair way, but honestly, if I had to guess, I would say upwards of 90% of these reported hate crimes are patently false or the work of kids just trolling. Again, I have no way of proving this, just as I had no way of proving Trump was under polling when I started the topic before the election, but it's just how I see this. I mean I read some of the accounts and they sound like Trump hate fan fiction. "Two white guys in MEGA hats", ridiculous stuff like that. I am not going to say there are no incidents. But most being reported look on the surface, to be really, really suspicious, especially when you consider the narrative the left wants to paint.
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Old 26th November 2016, 07:45 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by Klimax View Post
Damn it. I rethought my post and edited it. Too bad it was just a minute after you saw it and replied to it.

And just spotted word is missing as well in it:
"I don't think your question applies anymore"...
I say we forget about the whole thing and start over.



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Old 27th November 2016, 07:03 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
I say we forget about the whole thing and start over.



Hello, my name's Argumemnon!
Agreed.

Hi, I'm Klimax.
...

On topic: If that hate wave is in any shape similar to that post-it as seen in the other thread, then that's gross abuse of label "hate crime".
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Old 28th November 2016, 04:51 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
There's thousands of places you can talk about hate crimes.

This supposedly Sketic';s site thread is about a " Massive Wave of Hate Crimes against minorities follows Trump election".

And my post above seems to have gotten it back on topic, you're welcome.
How about the NYPD forming a new group to fight it?

http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/20/us/hat...unit-new-york/
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Old 28th November 2016, 04:53 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
If you want to disprove "news" it's always best to go to the sources. Alternately, it might be best to just ignore anecdotes. I don't find that article terribly convincing. People lie on Facebook? Gasp! Twitter is for ********? Don't tell me!

Meanwhile there are legitimate news articles every day on actual cases, including video footage of the perp(s) and arrests in at least one case... but the incidents are generally cowardly sneak-attacks of graffiti. No one's likely to be so emboldened by Trump's victory to tell someone to move to the back of the bus, finger a weapon and tell them their time is coming or any such B-Movie made-up crap.

I suspect most of the graffiti is kids. I don't think for a second that Stormfront is shouting "Woo Hoo, We Won, Time to Attack!"

So? Racist violence? Probably no greater than before the election, but count on it getting reported as though it is. Racist vandalism? I think it's probably on the upswing. Mob mentality, and all that.
Does harassment count as violence or vandalism?
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Old 28th November 2016, 04:59 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
One step that I'd highly recommend- Denounce the KKK parade in NC celebrating his victory as a victory for white supremacy.
But he clearly has more important things to talk about like how it should be illegal for SNL to make fun of him or for actors to talk to a person in the audience. You have to keep your priorities straight.
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Old 28th November 2016, 05:02 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by ServiceSoon View Post
The FBI is receiving enough information for them to conclude that there was a 67% increase of hate crimes against Muslims in 2015.

The most reliable data I could find pertaining to hate crime trends after the election is from South Poverty Law Center. According to their most recent article on this topic, hate crimes increased the first few days after the election and have stabilized around their previous levels. They admit their methodologies are not the most scientific. As catsmate eluded above, hate crime statistic gathering needs much improvement. I wonder what the fate of hate crime statistics will be under the Trump administration?

I theorize that this temporary increase in hate crimes was in part due to the media who repeatedly painted Trump and his administration as racist. The tactics that the media used to pigeonhole Trump as a racist were ill-advised. A forum member even cited a scientific study that outlined the most effective ways to combat racism, and it wasn't the strategy that the media imposed. Even WEBB DuBois thought that education was the proper way to rid a culture of racism.
.
Which is why it is best ignored and to pretend that policies being proposed are not racist. If we ignore it long enough it has to go away after all.

That is why agitators like King need to be struck from the history books as being influential in civil rights.
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Old 28th November 2016, 05:28 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
How about the NYPD forming a new group to fight it?

http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/20/us/hat...unit-new-york/
Hopefully they won't be stuck )and waste of time) solving stuff like "post-it notes".
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Old 28th November 2016, 05:53 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by Klimax View Post
Hopefully they won't be stuck )and waste of time) solving stuff like "post-it notes".
Yep because how the threat is delivered is the important part not the threats or harassment.
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Old 28th November 2016, 06:24 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Does harassment count as violence or vandalism?
Harassment counts as harassment. Violence counts as violence. Vandalism counts as vandalism. There can be overlaps (e.g. vandalism includes graffiti which can obviously be harassing).

I'm not splitting hairs to defend one action or the other - all can be reprehensible in their own right - I just don't want to cross that "I was so traumatized I got PTSD and couldn't leave the house for a month" line.
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Old 28th November 2016, 06:46 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Yep because how the threat is delivered is the important part not the threats or harassment.
I was referring to the other thread, where trolling non-threatening statement was taken as "hate crime" and referred to police.

I guess I should have either said "stupid" or refer to that thread...
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Old 28th November 2016, 07:42 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by Klimax View Post
I was referring to the other thread, where trolling non-threatening statement was taken as "hate crime" and referred to police.
What about writing Trump on the door of a student Muslim organization on a campus? Is that threatening or not?

In the case of one of my wifes black students it was finding out how racist her teammates on the rugby team were after playing together for years.

It certainly has made people feel that they can express themselves without the need to be PC anymore.
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Old 28th November 2016, 02:11 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
What about writing Trump on the door of a student Muslim organization on a campus? Is that threatening or not?

In the case of one of my wifes black students it was finding out how racist her teammates on the rugby team were after playing together for years.

It certainly has made people feel that they can express themselves without the need to be PC anymore.
If only word Trump, then just trolling . Ascribing malice or racism or any other offense and not trolling is usually quite incorrect and jumping to conclusions. (and playing mind reader) Just remove it and maybe charge idiot with vandalism. No "street cred" for him.

Not PC acting: Not bad idea. Usually PC is taken to such idiotic extreme that it actively breeds everything it aims to suppress. The more extreme PC suppression is, the bigger rejection and resistance it creates. Too tight control will cause massive reaction and you thus got Trump among other things.
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Old 28th November 2016, 07:21 PM   #226
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
What about writing Trump on the door of a student Muslim organization on a campus? Is that threatening or not?
No. It's most likely a Muslim doing to establish victim narrative.

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
In the case of one of my wifes black students it was finding out how racist her teammates on the rugby team were after playing together for years.
Because they like Trump? Orrr...?


Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
It certainly has made people feel that they can express themselves without the need to be PC anymore.
That's a good thing.
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Old 28th November 2016, 07:44 PM   #227
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
In the case of one of my wifes black students it was finding out how racist her teammates on the rugby team were after playing together for years.
They can't have been that racist, since they played together for years without noticing. To me, the moral of this story is that even racists can be tolerant and supportive team players.

Maybe racism isn't such a grave sin after all. Everybody is some kind of bigot. All we can ask of each other is that we keep it to ourselves and show basic respect in mixed company.

But I'm guessing the way your wife tells the story, none of her students ever realized that for years, these racists treated her not like an inferior other, but like a teammate. And none of her students ever reflected on what that might say about racism as a social issue.
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Old 28th November 2016, 11:34 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
They can't have been that racist, since they played together for years without noticing. To me, the moral of this story is that even racists can be tolerant and supportive team players.

Maybe racism isn't such a grave sin after all. Everybody is some kind of bigot. All we can ask of each other is that we keep it to ourselves and show basic respect in mixed company.

But I'm guessing the way your wife tells the story, none of her students ever realized that for years, these racists treated her not like an inferior other, but like a teammate. And none of her students ever reflected on what that might say about racism as a social issue.


Yeah ponderingturtle,

Have your wife ponder that for a while.
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Old 29th November 2016, 06:11 AM   #229
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Originally Posted by Klimax View Post
If only word Trump, then just trolling . Ascribing malice or racism or any other offense and not trolling is usually quite incorrect and jumping to conclusions. (and playing mind reader) Just remove it and maybe charge idiot with vandalism. No "street cred" for him.
Just like painting swastikas on synagogues isn't really a big deal as it is trolling to.
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Old 29th November 2016, 06:27 AM   #230
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
They can't have been that racist, since they played together for years without noticing. To me, the moral of this story is that even racists can be tolerant and supportive team players.

Maybe racism isn't such a grave sin after all. Everybody is some kind of bigot. All we can ask of each other is that we keep it to ourselves and show basic respect in mixed company.

But I'm guessing the way your wife tells the story, none of her students ever realized that for years, these racists treated her not like an inferior other, but like a teammate. And none of her students ever reflected on what that might say about racism as a social issue.
And you make it seem like racists don't really have black friends. They just know they need to edit themselves to keep it PC around them.

http://www.cracked.com/blog/6-weird-...-to-be-racist/

It is the difference between your friend Bob and some random black thug.

That is the thing, most people think only racists are the very very extreme end. Look at school desegregation, Boston fought putting blacks in their schools with as much force and violence as the south did, but as it was all based on neighborhoods and leaving it up to the banks and realtors to keep their neighborhoods pure and hence schools.
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Old 29th November 2016, 06:38 AM   #231
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More basic trolling

http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/news/...ix-mom-8864791

So how do we differentiate the threatening cross burnings from the simple trolling ones?

Like when is swatting someone trolling vs harassment?
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Old 1st December 2016, 12:12 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Just like painting swastikas on synagogues isn't really a big deal as it is trolling to.
False equivalence. Swastika has in most of the world only one dominant meaning. (and more likely to be considered promotion of hate group - for hate crime you'd need bit more like David's star) Not so with Trump. (Trump and Nazis don't have much in common if anything)
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Old 1st December 2016, 02:57 AM   #233
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Originally Posted by Klimax View Post
False equivalence. Swastika has in most of the world only one dominant meaning. (and more likely to be considered promotion of hate group - for hate crime you'd need bit more like David's star) Not so with Trump. (Trump and Nazis don't have much in common if anything)
Heil Trump.
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Old 1st December 2016, 04:12 AM   #234
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Originally Posted by Klimax View Post
False equivalence. Swastika has in most of the world only one dominant meaning. (and more likely to be considered promotion of hate group - for hate crime you'd need bit more like David's star) Not so with Trump. (Trump and Nazis don't have much in common if anything)
So even when they are used in exactly the same fashion to achieve the same results you fail to see any equivalence? What messages can be used to intimidate someone that is bad and what can you ignore as just trolling?

If they wanted everyone to dismiss them as trolls they should have kept it to the basic rape and death threats.
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Old 1st December 2016, 05:34 AM   #235
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
That is the thing, most people think only racists are the very very extreme end. Look at school desegregation, Boston fought putting blacks in their schools with as much force and violence as the south did, but as it was all based on neighborhoods and leaving it up to the banks and realtors to keep their neighborhoods pure and hence schools.
Nooo. you're racist, I'm racist, we're all racist. Just embrace it.
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Old 1st December 2016, 05:55 AM   #236
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Originally Posted by Klimax View Post
Swastika has in most of the world only one dominant meaning. (and more likely to be considered promotion of hate group - for hate crime you'd need bit more like David's star)
Depends what you mean by "most of the world", given that it's used as a religious symbol in China, India, Japan and other places in asia.
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Old 1st December 2016, 06:52 AM   #237
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Depends what you mean by "most of the world", given that it's used as a religious symbol in China, India, Japan and other places in asia.
I saw a funny Reddit post recently by a young Indian-American.
He had to talk his old dad out of walking around Austin in a swastika shirt. The thing has a completely different meaning in India.
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Old 1st December 2016, 07:10 AM   #238
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Originally Posted by Caper View Post
Nooo. you're racist, I'm racist, we're all racist. Just embrace it.
You can't fight it until you understand it. Yes everyone is racist, that doesn't mean we need to accept racism or embrace it.
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Old 1st December 2016, 07:17 AM   #239
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Originally Posted by Klimax View Post
Agreed.

Hi, I'm Klimax.
Hmm, given the eye in your avatar you seem more likely to be the supervillainess Evil Eye to me.
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Old 1st December 2016, 07:29 AM   #240
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
I saw a funny Reddit post recently by a young Indian-American.
He had to talk his old dad out of walking around Austin in a swastika shirt. The thing has a completely different meaning in India.
If you ever go to Japan, check out the maps. Every temple is noted by a swastika ("Manji" in Japanese).
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