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Old 12th February 2017, 04:43 PM   #161
ceptimus
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The remainers stick with their comforting fiction that the side which won the referendum consists of racists and idiots. You'd think that by now they would be accepting they lost the argument and trying to assist with providing the best Brexit outcome for the UK. It seems that they would prefer their country to fail so that they can revel in that failure.
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Old 12th February 2017, 04:49 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
The remainers stick with their comforting fiction that the side which won the referendum consists of racists and idiots. You'd think that by now they would be accepting they lost the argument and trying to assist with providing the best Brexit outcome for the UK. It seems that they would prefer their country to fail so that they can revel in that failure.
Want it to fail? That seems like quite a common accusation. I want it to succeed, and I have no indication that leaving the EU can be anything other than a failure, at least for the majority. This is why I also object to the frequent attribution of treason. I don't hate the country, I want the country to succeed, and I believe that leaving the EU will materially harm the country and its population, so I am against it. I expect that it will fail when it leaves, but I would love to be wrong, and for all your guesses to be right.
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Old 12th February 2017, 09:33 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
The remainers stick with their comforting fiction that the side which won the referendum consists of racists and idiots. You'd think that by now they would be accepting they lost the argument and trying to assist with providing the best Brexit outcome for the UK. It seems that they would prefer their country to fail so that they can revel in that failure.
Losing the referendum is not the same thing as losing the argument. The majority may be wrong, particularly when it has been lied to by racists. If you think otherwise you have a strange idea about how democracy works. The people who have the responsibility to produce the best outcome are the ones who promoted that outcome. If the outcome is a mess, that is the responsibility of those people who sought it, not those who rejected it in advance.
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Old 12th February 2017, 09:36 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
You'd think that by now they would be accepting they lost the argument and trying to assist with providing the best Brexit outcome for the UK.
And what is the "best Brexit outcome for the UK"? And how realistic do you consider that outcome to be?
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Old 13th February 2017, 03:53 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
The remainers stick with their comforting fiction that the side which won the referendum consists of racists and idiots. You'd think that by now they would be accepting they lost the argument and trying to assist with providing the best Brexit outcome for the UK. It seems that they would prefer their country to fail so that they can revel in that failure.
What you're saying is that all those that voted to leave saw through the many, many lies and fabrications perpetrated by the leave campaign and chose to vote to leave because they knew it would be better anyway?

You must at least admit that the campaign to leave was riddled with outright untruths?
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Old 13th February 2017, 05:31 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
You must at least admit that the campaign to leave was riddled with outright untruths?
Most political campaigns are. The remain campaign was equally riddled with lies - I would say remain told more lies than leave. If you wish we can go over them one by one and I'll trade you one remain lie for each leave lie you can detail.

But that won't get us anywhere. The way to move forward now is for remain campaigners to accept that they've lost the opportunity to remain and engage in working out the best way forward, accepting that we're leaving.
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Old 13th February 2017, 05:35 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Most political campaigns are. The remain campaign was equally riddled with lies - I would say remain told more lies than leave. If you wish we can go over them one by one and I'll trade you one remain lie for each leave lie you can detail.
I see this attitude quite a bit, too, and to be honest I find it utterly staggering. I have no particular interest in trading them either, really, but to imagine that it was about the same, or that remain lied more, is literally unbelievable.
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Old 13th February 2017, 05:55 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by Wildy View Post
And what is the "best Brexit outcome for the UK"? And how realistic do you consider that outcome to be?
The best Brexit outcome is UK becoming 51-54th state of US de jure, not just de facto. The plan is not very realistic.

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Old 13th February 2017, 06:10 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by Rat View Post
I see this attitude quite a bit, too, and to be honest I find it utterly staggering. I have no particular interest in trading them either, really, but to imagine that it was about the same, or that remain lied more, is literally unbelievable.
Alas all-too believable, mate. There are many on the Brexit side who are approaching this with what looks like blind religious dogma.
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Old 13th February 2017, 07:07 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by Architect View Post
Alas all-too believable, mate. There are many on the Brexit side who are approaching this with what looks like blind religious dogma.
A claim you make without any evidence so I'll make the same claim about remain.

There are many on the remain side who are approaching this with what looks like blind religious dogma.

As I posted above, I'm prepared to trade remain lie for leave lie, if that's what it takes to convince you. I'd rather not bother, but if you insist on claiming that leave told more lies than remain, I shall continue to make the offer.
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Old 13th February 2017, 07:09 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
The remainers stick with their comforting fiction that the side which won the referendum consists of racists and idiots. You'd think that by now they would be accepting they lost the argument and trying to assist with providing the best Brexit outcome for the UK. It seems that they would prefer their country to fail so that they can revel in that failure.
It is far from comforting to see the lunatics in charge of the asylum.
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Old 13th February 2017, 07:26 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
The remainers stick with their comforting fiction that the side which won the referendum consists of racists and idiots.
I don't think there is much doubt that the vast majority of racists supported leave. That does not mean that all leave supporters are racist or idiots but there is ample evidence that the less educated someone was the more likely they were to vote leave.

Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
You'd think that by now they would be accepting they lost the argument and trying to assist with providing the best Brexit outcome for the UK.
Why should someone opposing something help make it happen? Should opponents of apartheid have sought the best apartheid system they could have or were they right to continue to oppose what they felt was wrong?

Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
It seems that they would prefer their country to fail so that they can revel in that failure.
It is because they don't want the country to fail that they are opposing brexit.

If, as I do, you think the best Brexit solution is worse than the status quo, opposing brexit is the patriotic thing to do.
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Old 13th February 2017, 08:41 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Trump hasn't a clue. For example he was complaining about Japan not buying American cars and implying it was because of some kind of trade restriction.
There isn't any kind of tariff on foreign car imports in to Japan. Mercedes, BMW, VW, Mini and Jaguar have no problems. Japan doesn’t buy American cars because thry are too big for a lot of streets and parking spaces, have the wheel on the wrong side, have half the fuel economy and aren't of the quality they like.
If Trump thinks it's because of trade deals and tariffs what else doesn’t he understand about international trade and what is he going to insist on when negotiations start with the UK?
You could have stopped writing after the first sentence.
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Old 13th February 2017, 08:47 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Or when Brexit happens all those brown and black people in the UK don't magically dissapeare
Oh I'm sure the Mail readers have some ideas.....
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Old 13th February 2017, 08:48 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Most political campaigns are. The remain campaign was equally riddled with lies - I would say remain told more lies than leave. If you wish we can go over them one by one and I'll trade you one remain lie for each leave lie you can detail.

But that won't get us anywhere. The way to move forward now is for remain campaigners to accept that they've lost the opportunity to remain and engage in working out the best way forward, accepting that we're leaving.
I may read this wrong, but shouldn't Leave campaign already have worked this out and not as you suggest be relying on the Remain camp to help work out the solution?

Last edited by Greebo; 13th February 2017 at 08:51 AM.
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Old 13th February 2017, 08:57 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
The remainers stick with their comforting fiction that the side which won the referendum consists of racists and idiots. You'd think that by now they would be accepting they lost the argument and trying to assist with providing the best Brexit outcome for the UK. It seems that they would prefer their country to fail so that they can revel in that failure.
Some of us want it to fail because we want to leave the UK and have never seen it as our country. The only reason I voted for Brexit was in the hope that it would turn out to be a disaster and help usher in a united Ireland.
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Old 13th February 2017, 09:30 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Most political campaigns are. The remain campaign was equally riddled with lies - I would say remain told more lies than leave. If you wish we can go over them one by one and I'll trade you one remain lie for each leave lie you can detail.

But that won't get us anywhere. The way to move forward now is for remain campaigners to accept that they've lost the opportunity to remain and engage in working out the best way forward, accepting that we're leaving.
God no, the best way to proceed now is not to leave europe.

There's no requirement for it, there's certainly no mandate for it.
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Old 13th February 2017, 10:43 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
Some of us want it to fail because we want to leave the UK and have never seen it as our country. The only reason I voted for Brexit was in the hope that it would turn out to be a disaster and help usher in a united Ireland.
Though it looks like you'll end up with a disunited Ireland with a hard border instead

At least in the medium term
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Old 13th February 2017, 10:58 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Though it looks like you'll end up with a disunited Ireland with a hard border instead

At least in the medium term
That's unavoidable if the nationalist electorate are to be shaken out of their apathy, as is the fall of the executive and the Good Friday Agreement and a return to hated direct rule. The irony is that none of these things were caused by Sinn Féin, they were all handed to us by the British and the Unionists.

The result is that at the last opinion poll support for staying in the UK has collapsed among Catholics in NI since the Brexit vote. Its dropped from around a third of the Catholic electorate to less than 5%, with support for a united Ireland up to 44% among the population overall. I fully expect to see Ireland united in my lifetime, although I think we'll have to go through some pain first.
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Old 13th February 2017, 11:25 AM   #180
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Ireland should be reunited. The current situation is a fudge due to history and politics. In the long run, geography trumps politics.

Brexit and the nonsense about soft and hard borders will hopefully bring the uniting forward. Let's hope it will happen peacefully.
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Old 13th February 2017, 01:40 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Ireland should be reunited. The current situation is a fudge due to history and politics. In the long run, geography trumps politics.

Brexit and the nonsense about soft and hard borders will hopefully bring the uniting forward. Let's hope it will happen peacefully.
Boy, will you be surprised when Scotland takes a hike.......
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Old 13th February 2017, 05:44 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by Rat View Post
I expect that it will fail when it leaves, but I would love to be wrong, and for all your guesses to be right.
What would life be without surprises? Very boring.

The last couple of years leave me feeling one can have too many of them, but I doubt many long lives have maintained a happy medium throughout.
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Old 13th February 2017, 06:07 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Ireland should be reunited. The current situation is a fudge due to history and politics. In the long run, geography trumps politics.

Brexit and the nonsense about soft and hard borders will hopefully bring the uniting forward. Let's hope it will happen peacefully.
History trumps geography in politics, and peace is politics by other means. The geography of Ireland hasn't changed since the 1920's and isn't about to. "Peacefully" will be relative.

Here we have a surprise result from the Referendum : the Union flag-waving political contingent that has kept Northern Ireland British against all reason now wants shot of it as a worthless anachronism and impediment to their grand scheme. As someone who grew up with the Troubles I have to say I did not see that coming.
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Old 13th February 2017, 06:28 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Though it looks like you'll end up with a disunited Ireland with a hard border instead

At least in the medium term
If ceptimus's take on it is anything to go by Ireland can have Northern Ireland if it wants it, and I doubt we'd see a massive Protestant reaction against it. The NI border is undoubtedly the most intractible problem the Leavers are faced with, and the Orange Order must already be noticing a change in attitude from the mainland. I doubt ceptimus is unique : things can be said here that might not be said in the halls of power.

I reckon Farage should get his friend Trump to intercede and ensure that Ireland is united peacefully.
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Old 13th February 2017, 06:31 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by Greebo View Post
I may read this wrong, but shouldn't Leave campaign already have worked this out and not as you suggest be relying on the Remain camp to help work out the solution?
Worth repeating. We've been hearing it from Day One, of course.
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Old 13th February 2017, 06:38 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
What you're saying is that all those that voted to leave saw through the many, many lies and fabrications perpetrated by the leave campaign and chose to vote to leave because they knew it would be better anyway?
"Better Anyway"

Now that's what I call a platform to run on. When the World Presidency comes up I'm going to steal it for my campaign.

Don't worry. there'll be a place for you on my team, and you can be Ambassador to a planet of your choice - with a commensurate salary and expense account.
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Old 13th February 2017, 06:51 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by Wildy View Post
And what is the "best Brexit outcome for the UK"?
Speaking for myself, getting shot of Northern Ireland would be a positive.

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And how realistic do you consider that outcome to be?
Surprisingly so.

(As for other potential positives, I've got nothing.)
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Old 13th February 2017, 06:57 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Most political campaigns are. The remain campaign was equally riddled with lies - I would say remain told more lies than leave. If you wish we can go over them one by one and I'll trade you one remain lie for each leave lie you can detail.
£350m a week to Europe that could go to the NHS.
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Old 14th February 2017, 12:56 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Most political campaigns are. The remain campaign was equally riddled with lies - I would say remain told more lies than leave. If you wish we can go over them one by one and I'll trade you one remain lie for each leave lie you can detail.

But that won't get us anywhere. The way to move forward now is for remain campaigners to accept that they've lost the opportunity to remain and engage in working out the best way forward, accepting that we're leaving.

I just don't believe anything you say at this point. See how that works?

No you don't because you lie to yourself.
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Old 14th February 2017, 02:36 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
£350m a week to Europe that could go to the NHS.
Leaving the EU means we can hire more Australians.

We need to leave the EU to stop the Turks coming in

We need to leave the EU to stop the Syrians coming in

We have no control on immigration

We have open borders

How many should we stop at here?
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Old 14th February 2017, 02:39 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
Here we have a surprise result from the Referendum : the Union flag-waving political contingent that has kept Northern Ireland British against all reason now wants shot of it as a worthless anachronism and impediment to their grand scheme. As someone who grew up with the Troubles I have to say I did not see that coming.
Oh I think it's long been obvious that the Little Englanders have a strange relationship with the Union. They want to maintain it while simultaneously having nothing but disdain for the people in those countries. That they would be thrown under the boss when it suits is no surprise.

That their mindless pursuit of a mythical England that has never existed may destroy their precious United Kingdom would be the ultimate irony.
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Old 14th February 2017, 02:49 AM   #192
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Looks like inflation is on its way up:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38966692

Quote:
UK inflation as measured by CPI rises to 1.8% in January, up from 1.6% the month before
Hooray for 70's style stagflation


edited to add...

Looks like SMMT members may be the first to feel the pinch

Quote:
Average car prices have risen by 5.2% since the Brexit vote in June 2016, according to industry research.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38957710

Last edited by The Don; 14th February 2017 at 02:56 AM.
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Old 14th February 2017, 03:55 AM   #193
Tolls
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Oh, but I thought all those economists were not to be trusted.
The BBC is clearly lying then.
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Old 14th February 2017, 04:25 AM   #194
ceptimus
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger
£350m a week to Europe that could go to the NHS.

George Osborne has warned he would be forced to introduce an emergency Budget with tax hikes and spending cuts if the UK votes to leave the European Union.

https://www.politicshome.com/news/eu...warn-emergency
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Old 14th February 2017, 04:26 AM   #195
ceptimus
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Leaving the EU means we can hire more Australians.

We need to leave the EU to stop the Turks coming in

We need to leave the EU to stop the Syrians coming in

We have no control on immigration

We have open borders

How many should we stop at here?
One at a time please.
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Old 14th February 2017, 04:33 AM   #196
ceptimus
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Looks like inflation is on its way up:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38966692
It's almost reached the official Bank of England target rate of 2%

It means the Governor of the Bank of England won't have to keep writing the letters to the Chancellor apologising for failing to meet the target and explaining what he's going to do about it. Or did they abandon that rule because they failed for so long it was getting embarrassing?

http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/monet...tter120215.pdf
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Old 14th February 2017, 04:34 AM   #197
The Don
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
George Osborne has warned he would be forced to introduce an emergency Budget with tax hikes and spending cuts if the UK votes to leave the European Union.

https://www.politicshome.com/news/eu...warn-emergency
The key is here:

Quote:
The Chancellor argued the Treasury would be forced to unveil a Budget post the vote on 23 June in order to make up for the £30bn "black hole" created by leaving the EU.

This would be comprised of £15bn of tax rises and £15bn of spending cuts, Mr Osborne will say.
Instead his successor has chosen to abandon any concept of attempting to reduce the deficit and the £30bn black hole will simply not be plugged.
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Old 14th February 2017, 04:35 AM   #198
ceptimus
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Doesn't alter the fact that he was lying.
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Old 14th February 2017, 04:52 AM   #199
The Don
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Doesn't alter the fact that he was lying.
Only insofar as his successor chose to do something completely different with regard to the "black hole".

The key fact, that Brexit would blow a hole in the UK finances has been confirmed.
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Old 14th February 2017, 05:13 AM   #200
Lothian
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Today's inflation rise appears to be just the start.
source BBC


Analysis: Simon Gompertz, personal finance reporter
A red light is flashing. It's been set off by a jump in what our manufacturers are having to pay for imported raw materials.
They face the same fuel price hike as motorists. Metals have gone up, and foodstuffs as well.
Companies aren't passing on the full 20.5% increase yet. They have only put their own prices up by 3.5% on average.
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