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Old 4th August 2017, 07:17 AM   #2321
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
So now an 'unnamed tory minister' wants to bring in 'British Only' passport lanes, in revenge for the supposed long queues facing British holidaymakers, due to more security in the Schengen area.

Is this really the quality of the people we elect to lead us? Childish gungho tantrum-throwing?
Yes, especially if you're referring to the right wing of the Conservative Party.
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Old 6th August 2017, 04:38 AM   #2322
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Two Belgian newspapers announce today that the UK government would be ready to pay up to 40 million euros to the EU for the Brexit. Both refer to AFP, which cites the Sunday Telegraph as original source of the information.
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Old 6th August 2017, 04:59 AM   #2323
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Originally Posted by Degeneve View Post
Two Belgian newspapers announce today that the UK government would be ready to pay up to 40 million euros to the EU for the Brexit. Both refer to AFP, which cites the Sunday Telegraph as original source of the information.
You just got in ahead of me, but there's a snag, as reported in Le Vif. Not paltry "millions", but "milliards". Billions.
According to the paper, which claims to be quoting anonymous government sources, Great Britain will be prepared to pay up to 40 billion Euro on condition that the EU agrees to negotiate a financial settlement within the framework of a general agreement on future relations, and in particular commentcial relations, between London and the European bloc.
So the UK is once more trying to negotiate financial settlement and future trading relations simultaneously. Johnnie Foreigner has resisted that up to now. Will a dangling carrot of forty billions change his mind?

Last edited by Craig B; 6th August 2017 at 05:03 AM.
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Old 6th August 2017, 05:13 AM   #2324
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
You just got in ahead of me, but there's a snag, as reported in Le Vif. Not paltry "millions", but "milliards". Billions.
According to the paper, which claims to be quoting anonymous government sources, Great Britain will be prepared to pay up to 40 billion Euro on condition that the EU agrees to negotiate a financial settlement within the framework of a general agreement on future relations, and in particular commentcial relations, between London and the European bloc.
So the UK is once more trying to negotiate financial settlement and future trading relations simultaneously. Johnnie Foreigner has resisted that up to now. Will a dangling carrot of forty billions change his mind?
You're. It's of course billions and not millions. My bad.
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Old 6th August 2017, 05:22 AM   #2325
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Originally Posted by Degeneve View Post
You're. It's of course billions and not millions. My bad.
If was just millions Theresa May would be in transports of delight.
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Old 6th August 2017, 05:27 AM   #2326
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Well I didn't expect anything quite so blunt from Vince Cable:

Vince Cable: Young 'shafted' over Brexit

Quote:
Older people who voted for Brexit have "comprehensively shafted the young", Sir Vince Cable has said.
Writing in the Mail on Sunday, the Lib Dem leader accused the over-65s of being "self-declared martyrs" who claim leaving the EU is worth the cost.
"The martyrdom of the old comes cheap," he said, as fewer have jobs to lose and living standards are protected by the triple lock on pensions.
"For the Brexit martyrs, paradise beckons," he added.
Probably the first statement on Brexit I can wholeheartedly agree with. It's a lot easier to ignore the economic implications of Brexit and indulge in some xenophobic nostalgia for 'the good old days' when you feel safely insulated from the realities of it.
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Old 7th August 2017, 12:30 AM   #2327
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Brexit negotiations are reportedly not going well.

Quote:
The UK's Brexit negotiations have not begun well amid "differences" inside the cabinet, a former head of the diplomatic service has said.

Sir Simon Fraser, chief mandarin at the Foreign Office until 2015, said the UK side had been "a bit absent" from formal negotiations in Brussels.

Sir Simon, who now advises businesses on Brexit, said he was concerned the UK had not put forward a clear position.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40846830
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Old 7th August 2017, 12:50 AM   #2328
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Brexit negotiations are reportedly not going well.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40846830
"a bit absent"

With the country's future at stake clearly a lengthy holiday was called for, to 'recharge the batteries' or something. No doubt they'll be raring to go, with renewed vigour and clear minds, quite soon now.
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Old 7th August 2017, 02:39 AM   #2329
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Brexit negotiations are reportedly not going well.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40846830
"Chief mandarin" was his job title at the Foreign Office? Interesting, since when do you have such job titles? Since the Opium Wars?

And "a bit absent" reminds a lot of "a bit pregnant". The British negotiators were there but only for the good coffee? But those position papers sure will be there in October, 6 months - i.e., 25% - into the allotted time. Given that it took a whopping 9 months to write a simple one-paragraph letter, I don't hold my breath.
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Old 7th August 2017, 04:15 AM   #2330
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Reminds me a little bit of Rimmer's revision timetable . . .

http://www.quintusteal.com/study.htm
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Old 7th August 2017, 08:13 AM   #2331
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
"Chief mandarin" was his job title at the Foreign Office? Interesting, since when do you have such job titles? Since the Opium Wars?

And "a bit absent" reminds a lot of "a bit pregnant". The British negotiators were there but only for the good coffee? But those position papers sure will be there in October, 6 months - i.e., 25% - into the allotted time. Given that it took a whopping 9 months to write a simple one-paragraph letter, I don't hold my breath.
Loook, the UK government hasn't given up in its competition with the US in order to see which Anglophone country can mess up more, but May has had to up her game since Trump.

Bringing on the DUP and giving the workshy David Davis a key role were pretty good moves.


I'm not sure why she wants to do that, but it is about the only analysis that makes sense.
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Old 7th August 2017, 08:34 AM   #2332
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Loook, the UK government hasn't given up in its competition with the US in order to see which Anglophone country can mess up more, but May has had to up her game since Trump.

Bringing on the DUP and giving the workshy David Davis a key role were pretty good moves.


I'm not sure why she wants to do that, but it is about the only analysis that makes sense.
She could have done a lot better if she really wanted to mess up. E.g., endless negotiations with Labour for a grand coalition.

The best way not to mess up is not having a government. We've had elections in March and no end to coalition talks in sight. And all involved in those talks are sworn to secrecy, so no soundbites either. It's wonderful!
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Old 7th August 2017, 12:34 PM   #2333
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
She could have done a lot better if she really wanted to mess up. E.g., endless negotiations with Labour for a grand coalition.

The best way not to mess up is not having a government. We've had elections in March and no end to coalition talks in sight. And all involved in those talks are sworn to secrecy, so no soundbites either. It's wonderful!
Wasn't the lack of government given as a reason how the Belgian economy was relatively unscathed by the financial crisis?

There was no body to impose austerity, so default spending continued.
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Old 7th August 2017, 01:09 PM   #2334
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Wasn't the lack of government given as a reason how the Belgian economy was relatively unscathed by the financial crisis?

There was no body to impose austerity, so default spending continued.
Depends on how things are setup and on economy. If things are done correctly, austerity generally is unnecessary if not actively harmful, but if there are deficiencies in policies, economic problems can expose them and cause significant (and bad) debt.

Don't know about Belgium, but I know that austerity in Czech Republic was badly and unsystematically done and generally served to cover massive corruption of right wing government that caused massive loss of money.
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Old 7th August 2017, 09:51 PM   #2335
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Britain's most senior judge says that the judiciary is going to require a lot of guidance about how EU laws will apply post-Brexit - in particular how ECJ rulings should apply.

Quote:
Lord Neuberger said Parliament must be "very clear" in telling the judges what to do about decisions of the ECJ after the UK leaves the EU.

He said judges should not be blamed for misinterpretations if it is unclear.

Prime Minister Theresa May has insisted the ECJ should have no jurisdiction over the UK after Britain leaves the EU.

UK courts will continue to interpret ECJ case law - even after Brexit.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40855526

I'm sure it's something that the Brexit "brains trust" could sort out in 5 minutes when they get around to applying their massive intellects to it
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Old 7th August 2017, 11:54 PM   #2336
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What does it matter, as long as those foreigners aren't involved. People do seem to have got rather confused about this Brexit malarkey, who cares what comes afterwards as long as Johnny Foreigner is booted out? Anyway August is no time for this type question, good folk are trying to relax in their Tuscony bolthole!
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Old 8th August 2017, 12:15 AM   #2337
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Wasn't the lack of government given as a reason how the Belgian economy was relatively unscathed by the financial crisis?

There was no body to impose austerity, so default spending continued.
As well as that there was nobody to initiate new pet spending projects.

Meanwhile, RBS is making plans to move to Amsterdam. British taxpayer money at work.
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Old 8th August 2017, 12:20 AM   #2338
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Where is ceptimus?
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Old 8th August 2017, 12:26 AM   #2339
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Where is ceptimus?
If I were him , I would avoid the thread. He would by now take a metaphorical "beating" if he was euphorical of any outcome. Too much stuff happened in the mean time, which he can't sweep under the rug.
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Old 8th August 2017, 09:44 AM   #2340
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
What does it matter, as long as those foreigners aren't involved. People do seem to have got rather confused about this Brexit malarkey, who cares what comes afterwards as long as Johnny Foreigner is booted out? Anyway August is no time for this type question, good folk are trying to relax in their Tuscony bolthole!
What's "Tuscony bolthole"?
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Old 8th August 2017, 10:19 AM   #2341
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Originally Posted by Klimax View Post
What's "Tuscony bolthole"?
It's Tuscany of course. A "bolthole" is a place of refuge into which a small animal can escape, or "bolt", when chased by a predator. A rabbit's burrow, for example. But figuratively it may refer, as it does here, to a holiday destination. Is it not ironic, that British xenophobes who wish to exclude foreigners from the U.K. nevertheless take their own holidays in Tuscany?
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Old 12th August 2017, 04:34 AM   #2342
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Leaks of a survey asking people to choose between cake ownership and cake eating.

Quote:
A groundbreaking project by the London School of Economics and Oxford University surveying more than 3,000 people – which BuzzFeed News has seen exclusively ahead of its official publication – reveals that when the British public are asked in detail what they want from the negotiations, there is more support for harder Brexit options because Leavers and a significant number of Remainers back them.
https://www.buzzfeed.com/jamesball/r...50o#.ijLkV1NJY

Quote:
The results imply relatively low levels of support for the policies that would amount to a "soft" Brexit – single market membership, ongoing EU payments, free movement, and the ECJ: 67% of respondents would prefer "no deal" to soft Brexit, while 68% would opt for hard over soft Brexit.
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Old 12th August 2017, 03:31 PM   #2343
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Originally Posted by Aber View Post
Leaks of a survey asking people to choose between cake ownership and cake eating.



https://www.buzzfeed.com/jamesball/r...50o#.ijLkV1NJY
Been nice knowing you chaps.

Maybe Merkel was even less right than she thought about the UK being forced into lapdog position for the US. Maybe states 51-55 (depending on how the various unions and divisions are handled)?

Wouldn't that be a coup?! Maybe I shouldn't use that term right now...
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Old 12th August 2017, 04:28 PM   #2344
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Been nice knowing you chaps.

Maybe Merkel was even less right than she thought about the UK being forced into lapdog position for the US. Maybe states 51-55 (depending on how the various unions and divisions are handled)?

Wouldn't that be a coup?! Maybe I shouldn't use that term right now...

What makes you think we'd take you?

Too many brown people.

Not to mention Irish.
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Old 13th August 2017, 01:18 AM   #2345
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Great, now the official UK Government Brexit policy is officially impossible, out of the EEA and Customs Union but with the free flow of goods

Quote:
Writing in the Sunday Telegraph, Mr Hammond and Mr Fox said the UK definitely will leave both the customs union and the single market when it exits the EU in March 2019.

<snip>

They said the UK's borders "must continue to operate smoothly", that goods bought on the internet "must still cross borders", and "businesses must still be able to supply their customers across the EU" in the weeks and months after Brexit
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40914604
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Old 13th August 2017, 02:35 AM   #2346
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Wonder how many the elderly that voted for exit will be surprised when their carers have to go home, when the bloke who cuts their grass is no longer available.
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Old 13th August 2017, 03:39 AM   #2347
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Great, now the official UK Government Brexit policy is officially impossible, out of the EEA and Customs Union but with the free flow of goods

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40914604
I almost hope that the current government get to 'own' the consequences for a few years, as it could permanently rid us of some total wankers whose rise to power remains a mystery to me. But I doubt if they'll care too much as they head off to their consultancies, directorships and lecture tours.
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Old 14th August 2017, 12:19 AM   #2348
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Originally Posted by Aber View Post
Leaks of a survey asking people to choose between cake ownership and cake eating.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/jamesball/r...50o#.ijLkV1NJY
The article also shows where the crux of the problem lies.

Finding the public's view on what Brexit should look like has proven a tricky task for pollsters and politicians, as many of the technical issues and tradeoffs are not well understood. As an example, one poll showed 88% of the public supporting free trade with the EU post-Brexit, while 69% wanted customs checks at the border – a directly contradictory position, meaning at least 57% of respondents had said they supported both open and closed borders.

They tried to tackle this by asking more specific questions, but they failed because they thought the crux of the problem is not in public supporting contradictory positions on Brexit. This is but a symptom of problem, the real problem is the pervasive and utter ignorance about what the issues of Brexit and possible solutions are. If at least 57% of the population is unable to discern those two options as mutually exclusive then no more than 43% of the population had the ability to answer those questions in a meaningful way in the first place.

Sure you can still do studies about what people want from Brexit, but you might as well be asking them how to tackle technological challenges with fusion power. Think how ITER would react to having such a study pushed on them on what it should do next.

British negotiators should react to such public opinion surveys in the same manner.

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Old 14th August 2017, 12:27 AM   #2349
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Great, now the official UK Government Brexit policy is officially impossible, out of the EEA and Customs Union but with the free flow of goods

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40914604
This always was the Brexit policy, having the cake and eating it. It is alarming that 14 months after the referendum and almost a quarter of the way in the time for UK to leave and a third of the time to negotiate the deal they still haven't done the most basic research of what is doable and are still deep in the populist cresspit.

If they don't get their act together real quick you will stumble out of EU without any deal whatsoever.

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Old 14th August 2017, 01:04 AM   #2350
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
If they don't get their act together real quick you will stumble out of EU without any deal whatsoever.

McHrozni
It's been my suspicion that this has been the plan all along. No deal means that the government can blame those horrible, horrible Europeans and invoke the Dunkirk/Blitz spirit.

The more painful the experience is for the UK population, the more likely we are to just buckle down and deal with it rather than (justifiably IMO) questioning and complaining about the deal.

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Old 14th August 2017, 01:41 AM   #2351
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
It's been my suspicion that this has been the plan all along. No deal means that the government can blame those horrible, horrible Europeans and invoke the Dunkirk/Blitz spirit.

The more painful the experience is for the UK population, the more likely we are to just buckle down and deal with it rather than (justifiably IMO) questioning and complaining about the deal.
Yeah, I know. You Brits are weird, but are you weird enough to accept these levels of ineptitude as being the work of nefarious Europeans?

Weird may not even be the proper descriptor any more, there are a lot less flattering variants that are immensly better suited.

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Old 14th August 2017, 02:45 AM   #2352
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The number of British retirees looking to live in the EU doubled in the past year.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...ncial-advisers

Some leave voters definitely weren't joking about having their cake and eating it too.

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Old 14th August 2017, 02:49 AM   #2353
The Don
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Yeah, I know. You Brits are weird, but are you weird enough to accept these levels of ineptitude as being the work of nefarious Europeans?

Weird may not even be the proper descriptor any more, there are a lot less flattering variants that are immensly better suited.

McHrozni
Blaming foreigners for all your own country's ills is hardly a uniquely British thing. IM (very cynical and possibly conspiratorial) O the key thing is to make things as bad as possible. If Brexit turns out to be largely neutral or only slightly disadvantageous for the UK then there will be a lot of people with the time, energy and inclination to complain bitterly and hold the government to account.

If, on the other hand, the post-Brexit situation is so calamitous that we end up in a state of national emergency then all political parties will have to "pull together for the national good" and any or all complainers will be portrayed as being unpatriotic and defeatist.

But as I concede, my opinions are firmly in territory
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Old 14th August 2017, 02:53 AM   #2354
The Don
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
The number of British retirees looking to live in the EU doubled in the past year.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...ncial-advisers

Some leave voters definitely weren't joking about having their cake and eating it too.

McHrozni
tbh screwing over their children and grandchildren seems to have been the baby boomers' MO for some time now

Why should this be any different ?Take their defined benefits occupational pensions, their triple locked state pensions (taken at 60 and 65), use their EU rights and leave their children and grandchildren to pay for it all.
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Old 14th August 2017, 03:00 AM   #2355
McHrozni
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Blaming foreigners for all your own country's ills is hardly a uniquely British thing. IM (very cynical and possibly conspiratorial) O the key thing is to make things as bad as possible. If Brexit turns out to be largely neutral or only slightly disadvantageous for the UK then there will be a lot of people with the time, energy and inclination to complain bitterly and hold the government to account.

If, on the other hand, the post-Brexit situation is so calamitous that we end up in a state of national emergency then all political parties will have to "pull together for the national good" and any or all complainers will be portrayed as being unpatriotic and defeatist.
This is what I was reffering to. If the results of a policy are horrible then the prevailing opinion is to turn against the government that endorsed them. It worked that way in the USSR, after their disastrous policies ended in famines the government had to find scapegoats to 'punish'.
Brits? No, let's support these guys who threw us in misery even more.

It's a bit of a caricature, but you get my meaning.

Quote:
But as I concede, my opinions are firmly in territory
I wouldn't be so sure. The government did just about every mistake that could be imagined plus several others you'd need both schitzophrenia and be high on acid to be able to imagine at all. This was due to either levels of incompetence not seen since China '58-'62 or deliberate actions. If the baboon (B.J., you just have to love those initials) and others are not, in fact, utter morons but intelligent, well studied individuals then the most simple explanation is their actions are indeed deliberate.

At this point two scenarios emerge, the one you proposed here and my version where they're doing all of this in order to derail Brexit, including the variant where they aborted this scenario in favor of an actual Brexit. We agree that version is less probable than the one with the Dunkirk spirit.

It comes down to this - either the British cabinet really is composed of clowns and assorted circus animals who recieved honors from high-ranking universities, or else the people in charge give that apperance to hide a different agenda - either a diamond-hard Brexit or no Brexit at all.

It's not a tinfoil scenario at all, but one of the several not all that plausible scenarios. The thing is one of those implausible scenarios is a close approximation of reality, because anything outside of them is firmly in the shape-shifting reptile territory.

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Last edited by McHrozni; 14th August 2017 at 03:05 AM.
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Old 14th August 2017, 03:15 AM   #2356
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
tbh screwing over their children and grandchildren seems to have been the baby boomers' MO for some time now

Why should this be any different ?Take their defined benefits occupational pensions, their triple locked state pensions (taken at 60 and 65), use their EU rights and leave their children and grandchildren to pay for it all.
Not all pensioners voted to leave, you know. I've been thinking about moving to Europe myself, and I expect the majority looking to do so are, like me, horrified remain voters. I shall finally get my state pension in November (it's my 64th birthday today).
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Old 14th August 2017, 03:23 AM   #2357
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Not all pensioners voted to leave, you know.
Correct, "only" 61% of the over-65's voted to leave, that number being somewhat higher in England.

Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
I've been thinking about moving to Europe myself, and I expect the majority looking to do so are, like me, horrified remain voters.
I don't know either way but at least you're lucky enough to have that option on retirement. I will not but at least I've have the benefits of being able to work in the EU and build a business based on EU clients. Those a generation behind me won't have that option either

Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
I shall finally get my state pension in November (it's my 64th birthday today).
Good for you. I will of course be older when I become eligible for my state pension and those of the generation behind me will be older still and may not have additional longevity in which to enjoy it.
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Old 14th August 2017, 03:27 AM   #2358
The Don
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
This is what I was reffering to. If the results of a policy are horrible then the prevailing opinion is to turn against the government that endorsed them. It worked that way in the USSR, after their disastrous policies ended in famines the government had to find scapegoats to 'punish'.
Brits? No, let's support these guys who threw us in misery even more.

It's a bit of a caricature, but you get my meaning.
IMO it's not a case of supporting "the guys who threw us in misery even more" so much as working together for the good of the country from the current ****** position. IMO it's the same dynamic which sees support for a US President soar when the US comes under attack and/or goes to war.
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Old 14th August 2017, 03:33 AM   #2359
McHrozni
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
IMO it's not a case of supporting "the guys who threw us in misery even more" so much as working together for the good of the country from the current ****** position. IMO it's the same dynamic which sees support for a US President soar when the US comes under attack and/or goes to war.
Working together for the good of the country is the lamest excuse not to hold those in power liable for their actions ever devised and one of the most widely used too. Supporting the government that brought about Brexit and made it extra bad for the country is as much working together for the good of the country as supporting Trump in his antics is working for the good of the country.

The good of the government is not the good of the country. The only time one can be excused for supporting the government no matter what it does is when one is facing an imminent foreign invasion and occupation. There is no Sealion II in store for UK after Brexit, so working together for the good of the country does not imply contending with whatever antics these guys and gals have in store. This is not the 17th century, the king is not the state. England was one of the first countries to officially recognize that.

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Last edited by McHrozni; 14th August 2017 at 03:35 AM.
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Old 14th August 2017, 04:18 AM   #2360
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
... the king is not the state. England was one of the first countries to officially recognize that.
England was copying a neighbour who had the same idea four years previously.
1638: Signing of the National Covenant in Scotland
1642: ... Parliament passes the Militia Bill which, in effect, seizes control of the London arsenal and places the trainbands and militia under its authority.
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