ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags donald trump , US-North Korea relations

Reply
Old 10th August 2017, 01:46 PM   #241
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 14,809
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Most people are stupid.



You're not being called a right-winger because of that, you're being called a right-winger because of your use of far-right rhetoric about the "regressive left" and your never-ending support for capitalist (and fascist) imperialism.
You have determined my never-ending support for fascist imperialism from me using a single phrase, which admittedly has sometimes been used by extremists? I don't regard anyone to the Right of Jeremy Corbyn as Regressive, but I do regard George Galloway as regressive left. When one starts thinking that groups of people have rights that supersede those of the members of that group, then I regard that as regressive. Your support for the DPRK is highly regressive, given what the DPRK regime has subjected its people to.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoeryo...entration_camp

What fascist imperialists (or indeed any other flavour) have I supported?
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2017, 02:06 PM   #242
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 21,743
Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
Their goal is not status quo. They want sanctions removed.
I was referring to China's goal, per Zaganza, to avoid war.

This signature is intended to irradiate people.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2017, 03:35 PM   #243
Skeptic Ginger
formerly skeptigirl
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 61,932
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
My dislike for Trump is approaching monumental proportions, but these attempts here to basically make Dear Leader Kim and the DPKR out to be the "good guys" here are truly disturbing.
You said this before. Have you presented that evidence you were asked for? Might you quote the "attempts" you refer to?

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 10th August 2017 at 03:37 PM.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2017, 03:38 PM   #244
Skeptic Ginger
formerly skeptigirl
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 61,932
Getting back on topic, this is from the POTUS Trump thread but maybe it belongs here:

Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
Generally I believe the treaties would last until bad harvests threatened to destabilize North Korea, at which point they would sabre rattle, there would be some diplomatic threats from Washington and then a new deal would be done with the regime getting a sufficient pay off in foodstuffs to carry it through.

The problem is that it's become such a routine that North Korea really doesn't understand they are dealing with a US president and administration of massive ego and staggering ineptitude that has no clue how the game is played.
From last month's NYTs:
U.N. Agency Reports Worst Drought in 16 Years in North Korea
Quote:
North Korea’s production of staple crops for this year, including rice, corn, potatoes and soybeans, has been severely damaged by prolonged dry spells “threatening food security for a large part of its population,” the agency, the Food and Agriculture Organization, said in a report prepared in collaboration with the European Commission’s Joint Research Center.
You'd think the mainstream media would have put 2&2 together here. Instead we get stories of Kim's power plays.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2017, 03:44 PM   #245
Argumemnon
World Maker
 
Argumemnon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the thick of things
Posts: 64,851
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
My dislike for Trump is approaching monumental proportions
Wait, do you mean that you're going to erect a statue of him?
__________________
"Yes. But we'll hit theirs as well. We have reserves. Attack!"
Argumemnon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2017, 03:46 PM   #246
Argumemnon
World Maker
 
Argumemnon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the thick of things
Posts: 64,851
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Most people are stupid.
Whenever I say that, I'm reminded that I'm more than likely included in the majority.
__________________
"Yes. But we'll hit theirs as well. We have reserves. Attack!"
Argumemnon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2017, 06:05 PM   #247
CapelDodger
Penultimate Amazing
 
CapelDodger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Cardiff, South Wales
Posts: 22,369
I expect Kim to claim the moral high-ground by choosing the path of peace by not carrying out the missile launch plan which so would have worked brilliantly, better than any missile launch plan ever.

Trump could then claim credit and let the whole thing drift into the background it usually inhabits.
__________________
It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898)

God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150
CapelDodger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2017, 06:27 PM   #248
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
 
Craig4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Next door to Florida Man, world's worst superhero.
Posts: 14,083
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Apparently the biggest event of killing North Koreans so far was done by...the US (as if that's a surprise)


So, in short, the US installs/supports one of its most brutal right-wing dictatorship-clients in the Korean peninsula in the late 1940's. Korean communist anti-Japanese fighters, established in the North of the country, eventually decide to attack the dictatorship installed in the South. So the US utterly destroys the infrastructure of the North, including exterminating about 20% of its population.

Then an armistice is signed. But less than a decade later the US declares the armistice agreement null and void so as to introduce nuclear weapons to the peninsula. So now finally they got what they wanted, nuclear weapons in the Korean peninsula, and now they're whining about that and want to destroy North Korea all over again.

Americans...
Maybe Lunch Box should have thought twice before joining the Nuclear Club, where the price of admission is mutually assured destruction. We didn't make him join the club but he should understand that we'll play by its rules.
Craig4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2017, 06:48 PM   #249
CapelDodger
Penultimate Amazing
 
CapelDodger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Cardiff, South Wales
Posts: 22,369
Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Maybe Lunch Box should have thought twice before joining the Nuclear Club, where the price of admission is mutually assured destruction.
The warm fuzzy feeling comes from mutually assured damage, or at least the credible threat of it. Mutually assured destruction is the privilege of a few. Assured destruction by the big beasts is a privilege of the many.

Quote:
We didn't make him join the club but he should understand that we'll play by its rules.
Do you have a link to those?
__________________
It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898)

God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150
CapelDodger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2017, 06:57 PM   #250
Regnad Kcin
Philosopher
 
Regnad Kcin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 8,392
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Wait, do you mean that you're going to erect a statue of him?
[Emily Litella]

What's all this I hear about presidential erections?

[/EL]
__________________
My heros are Alex Zanardi and Evelyn Glennie.
Regnad Kcin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2017, 08:24 PM   #251
CapelDodger
Penultimate Amazing
 
CapelDodger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Cardiff, South Wales
Posts: 22,369
So if the US goes to war with North Korea and South Korea stays out of it, wtf happens then? A quick resolution seems unlikely.
__________________
It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898)

God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150
CapelDodger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2017, 08:38 PM   #252
phiwum
Philosopher
 
phiwum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 7,984
Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
So if the US goes to war with North Korea and South Korea stays out of it, wtf happens then? A quick resolution seems unlikely.
I don't see how North Korea can "stay out of it". We have troops there and they will be targeted. I can't imagine the North targeting only US troops in the South. The South would be, in their view (and not unreasonably) aiding their enemy quite directly.
phiwum is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2017, 09:38 PM   #253
a_unique_person
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
 
a_unique_person's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Waiting for the pod bay door to open.
Posts: 37,965
Mr Kim may cause another depression without firing a shot.
__________________
Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.
Everything is possible, but not everything is probable.
For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes
a_unique_person is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2017, 10:45 PM   #254
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 12,193
Can't the senior people in the US govt just tell Trump not to act like such a prick for a few weeks and let it all tone down a bit?
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2017, 11:49 PM   #255
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Cymru
Posts: 21,987
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Can't the senior people in the US govt just tell Trump not to act like such a prick for a few weeks and let it all tone down a bit?
Doubt it. It seems that no-one in the government has the stones to do it and in any case it's doubtful whether President Trump would listen, much less modify his behaviour.

He's getting a massive horn from playing the international strong man and no-one will stop him
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th August 2017, 12:00 AM   #256
Skeptic Ginger
formerly skeptigirl
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 61,932
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
I think that you are being oversensitive. I have no reason to think that Dudalb was doing anything other than calling out a literal Stalinist.
Perhaps you missed his earlier post which I referred to and which he was asked to provide evidence of.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th August 2017, 12:07 AM   #257
Babbylonian
Philosopher
 
Babbylonian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 9,699
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger
Edited by jsfisher:  ...snip... Moderated content redacted.
How about we end this idiotic aside right now. Provide proof that dudalb made a generalization about "all lefties" defending Kim's DPRK or drop it.
__________________
Never let anyone forget that the American people elected a rapist to be their president. President Rapist is the only name that should be used when referring to this evil narcissist.

Last edited by jsfisher; 13th August 2017 at 04:52 PM.
Babbylonian is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th August 2017, 12:14 AM   #258
Skeptic Ginger
formerly skeptigirl
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 61,932
Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
How about we end this idiotic aside right now. Provide proof that dudalb made a generalization about "all lefties" defending Kim's DPRK or drop it.
I'll meet you half way:

Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I despise Trump, but when you begin to support North Korea you have just lost me.
He was referring to Tranewreck.

Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I have to disagree there. Mattis statements are pretty much in line with the way the Obama Admin talked to Korea. Totally different then Trump's rant.
And ignoring the Cracy Guy is not going to work either.
I am really annoyed on seeing a "enemy of my enemy is my friend" attitude among some Anti Trump people.
He was replying to Spindrift.

Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
My dislike for Trump is approaching monumental proportions, but these attempts here to basically make Dear Leader Kim and the DPKR out to be the "good guys" here are truly disturbing.
But I see here that this did indeed turn into a discussion about Caveman and I thought he was still generalizing.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th August 2017, 12:14 AM   #259
Roger Ramjets
Illuminator
 
Roger Ramjets's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,208
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
North Korea’s production of staple crops for this year, including rice, corn, potatoes and soybeans, has been severely damaged by prolonged dry spells
The real reason Trump denies Global Warming - it's actually a secret weapon we deployed to promote regime change in North Korea!
__________________
We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good.
Roger Ramjets is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th August 2017, 12:34 AM   #260
Minoosh
Philosopher
 
Minoosh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 6,107
Kim doesn't need to fire any missiles. He can just say he did; that San Francisco was wiped out, that the Americans are too cowed to respond, etc. So really, what's the advantage of firing missiles? The displays of troops are for the benefit of his own citizens. They're pretty impressive, too. They look as intimidating as hell. The missile launches may just be part of the pageantry.

His people will catch on in a hurry if NK does something really dumb, like attack Guam, and they find out other countries can kick their butts and Kim can't stop them. Yes, he can inflict damage, but it will fall short of his supposed omnipotence.
Minoosh is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th August 2017, 01:21 AM   #261
mike81
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 312
If NK makes good on it's threat to fire missiles over Japan, I'm assuming this would be considered an act of war?
mike81 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th August 2017, 01:53 AM   #262
The Great Zaganza
Master Poster
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 2,643
Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
If NK makes good on it's threat to fire missiles over Japan, I'm assuming this would be considered an act of war?
Only if we want to interpret it that way.
During the Cuban Missle crisis, US reconnaissance planes came under fire from Cuban AA batteries and even got hit - but the US decided to ignore this to avoid war.
__________________
"eventually we will get something done."
- Donald J. Trump
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th August 2017, 02:16 AM   #263
a_unique_person
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
 
a_unique_person's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Waiting for the pod bay door to open.
Posts: 37,965
China says if NK attacks the USA first it will sit this war out.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-08-1...states/8799242

Pulls the wind out of Kims' sails a bit.
__________________
Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.
Everything is possible, but not everything is probable.
For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes
a_unique_person is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th August 2017, 05:19 AM   #264
Degeneve
Muse
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 706
The cacophony coming from the Trump administration reaches a new level:

1. Trump threatens North Korea with nuclear fire
2. Secretary of State Tillersons tries to cool things down
3. Trumps says his warning to North Korea could have been stronger (I wonder how)
4. Trump aide Sebastian Gorka explains that Tillerson should shut up as he is speaking outside of his area of responsibility: https://www.vox.com/world/2017/8/10/...on-north-korea

This administration looks more and more like the ship of fools...

Quote:
Imagine then a fleet or a ship in which there is a captain who is taller and stronger than any of the crew, but he is a little deaf and has a similar infirmity in sight, and his knowledge of navigation is not much better. The sailors are quarreling with one another about the steering––every one is of the opinion that he has a right to steer, though he has never learned the art of navigation and cannot tell who taught him or when he learned, and will further assert that it cannot be taught, and they are ready to cut in pieces any one who says the contrary. They throng about the captain, begging and praying him to commit the helm to them; and if at any time they do not prevail, but others are preferred to them, they kill the others or throw them overboard, and having first chained up the noble captain's senses with drink or some narcotic drug, they mutiny and take possession of the ship and make free with the stores; thus, eating and drinking, they proceed on their voyage in such a manner as might be expected of them. Him who is their partisan and cleverly aids them in their plot for getting the ship out of the captain's hands into their own whether by force or persuasion, they compliment with the name of sailor, pilot, able seaman, and abuse the other sort of man, whom they call a good-for-nothing; but that the true pilot must pay attention to the year and seasons and sky and stars and winds, and whatever else belongs to his art, if he intends to be really qualified for the command of a ship, and that he must and will be the steerer, whether other people like or not––the possibility of this union of authority with the steerer's art has never seriously entered into their thoughts or been made part of their calling. Now in vessels which are in a state of mutiny and by sailors who are mutineers, how will the true pilot be regarded? Will he not be called by them a prater, a star-gazer, a good-for-nothing? (Plato, Republic, Book VI)
Degeneve is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th August 2017, 05:25 AM   #265
alfaniner
Penultimate Amazing
 
alfaniner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 16,876
"Locked and loaded" is an incendiary phrase.
__________________
Science is self-correcting.
Woo is self-contradicting.
alfaniner is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th August 2017, 05:36 AM   #266
Stacko
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 8,108
Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
"Locked and loaded" is an incendiary phrase.
But not coupled with a noncombatant evacuation operation of South Korea, it's just more bluster.
Stacko is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th August 2017, 05:45 AM   #267
NoahFence
Psycho Kitty
 
NoahFence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Patriot Nation
Posts: 20,497
Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
But not coupled with a noncombatant evacuation operation of South Korea, it's just more bluster.
Wait, what?

You're not suggesting that the children in charge of these countries cares one whit about innocent lives are you?
__________________
you to the ignorant, uneducated portion ofAmerica too short sighted to see what's right in front of your cheeto loving faces.
NoahFence is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th August 2017, 05:50 AM   #268
Stacko
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 8,108
Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Wait, what?

You're not suggesting that the children in charge of these countries cares one whit about innocent lives are you?
Not the President and the alt reichers but the rest care if the US becomes a rogue state.
Stacko is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th August 2017, 05:54 AM   #269
C_Felix
Master Poster
 
C_Felix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Just outside Raleigh, NC
Posts: 2,379
Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
If NK makes good on it's threat to fire missiles over Japan, I'm assuming this would be considered an act of war?
I'm assuming that any missiles shot over Japan and have a trajectory towards Guam (or Hawai'i..etc..) will be intercepted by some form of Patriot missile, laser beam, or who knows what these days.

If that happens, is that an act of war?
I'm (also) assuming NK will consider the shooting down of one of its missiles an act of war.
__________________
Eqinsu Ocha!
Eqinsu Ocha!
C_Felix is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th August 2017, 05:56 AM   #270
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Cymru
Posts: 21,987
Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
Not the President and the alt reichers but the rest care if the US becomes a rogue state.
Do they get a say ?

If President Trump decides it's mushroom-time then presumably they don't get any sort of say


edited to add.....

and it seems that Trump is willing to start a war which will result in the deaths of thouands, tens of thousands or more just to give himself a bump in the polls and draw attention away from the Russian investigation and that the GOP is quite sanguine about the prospect

Last edited by The Don; 11th August 2017 at 05:58 AM.
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th August 2017, 05:59 AM   #271
Stacko
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 8,108
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Do they get a say ?

If President Trump decides it's mushroom-time then presumably they don't get any sort of say
Ultimately, at mushroom-time no. They can advise before hand and they just need to ensure they were the last person to talk to President goldfish about the matter.
Stacko is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th August 2017, 06:01 AM   #272
Stacko
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 8,108
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
and it seems that Trump is willing to start a war which will result in the deaths of thouands, tens of thousands or more just to give himself a bump in the polls and draw attention away from the Russian investigation and that the GOP is quite sanguine about the prospect
That's a rosy estimation with Seoul in the crosshairs. The weirdest part of this is watching many of the folks that pushed for the invasion of Iraq using the same arguments for toppling Kim Jong Un.
Stacko is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th August 2017, 06:08 AM   #273
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Cymru
Posts: 21,987
Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
That's a rosy estimation with Seoul in the crosshairs.
I didn't want to be accused of hyperbole.

In another thread someone (McHrozni ?) was saying that the risk to South Korea from the North is negligible because all the North Korean artillery which was supposed to be trained on Seoul could be taken out in a few minutes through surgical strikes.

Personally I think that's optimistic but I lack the expertise to counter the argument effectively.

Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
The weirdest part of this is watching many of the folks that pushed for the invasion of Iraq using the same arguments for toppling Kim Jong Un.
Though at least in the case of North Korea, the weapons of mass destruction likely exist and the leader of North Korea is at least engaging in threatening rhetoric and the North Korean military could conceivably represent a threat to the U.S. and/or its territories overseas.
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th August 2017, 06:16 AM   #274
The Great Zaganza
Master Poster
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 2,643
NK rhetoric has been aimed solely against the US - even though other countries have condemned its actions.
I think Seoul is safe now that Kim has a nuke to threaten with. The artillery was the poor man's WMD.
__________________
"eventually we will get something done."
- Donald J. Trump
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th August 2017, 06:28 AM   #275
Giordano
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 13,114
Originally Posted by C_Felix View Post
I'm assuming that any missiles shot over Japan and have a trajectory towards Guam (or Hawai'i..etc..) will be intercepted by some form of Patriot missile, laser beam, or who knows what these days.

If that happens, is that an act of war?
I'm (also) assuming NK will consider the shooting down of one of its missiles an act of war.
I've been wondering about this too. As far as I know such a missle launch by North Korea would be legal. But I suspect intercepting them would not. So then what happens?

And if, as is likely, an attempt at intercepting them fails, allowing at least some of the missles through, that would undermine any ability of the USA to rely on its as of yet theoretical anti-missle defenses, leaving us notably weaker in our ability to reassure our allies and our ability to raise uncertainties in North Korea as to the realiability of their nuclear threat.

Last edited by Giordano; 11th August 2017 at 06:31 AM.
Giordano is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th August 2017, 06:55 AM   #276
Stacko
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 8,108
A tweet for every occasion.
Polls are starting to look really bad for Obama. Looks like he'll have to start a war or major conflict to win. Don't put it past him!
Stacko is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th August 2017, 07:22 AM   #277
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 14,809
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I didn't want to be accused of hyperbole.

In another thread someone (McHrozni ?) was saying that the risk to South Korea from the North is negligible because all the North Korean artillery which was supposed to be trained on Seoul could be taken out in a few minutes through surgical strikes.

Personally I think that's optimistic but I lack the expertise to counter the argument effectively.



Though at least in the case of North Korea, the weapons of mass destruction likely exist and the leader of North Korea is at least engaging in threatening rhetoric and the North Korean military could conceivably represent a threat to the U.S. and/or its territories overseas.
Here is a BBC World Service programme on that subject:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p05951pc

Estimates that the first day's casualties would be about 30,000. Seoul would be heavily damaged, with lots of civilian casualties.

Even if the war were to be won quickly, there would be a massive refugee crisis.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th August 2017, 07:43 AM   #278
alfaniner
Penultimate Amazing
 
alfaniner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 16,876
The weird thing is, this is from a book that was created over two years ago, before The PDJT even secured the nomination!
__________________
Science is self-correcting.
Woo is self-contradicting.
alfaniner is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th August 2017, 07:50 AM   #279
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Cymru
Posts: 21,987
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Here is a BBC World Service programme on that subject:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p05951pc

Estimates that the first day's casualties would be about 30,000. Seoul would be heavily damaged, with lots of civilian casualties.

Even if the war were to be won quickly, there would be a massive refugee crisis.
Interesting and worrying all at the same time.

As you said, 30k dead in the first day, 300k-400k dead in the first week, up to 2 million in three weeks - then the North might use nuclear weapons.

......and then the refugee crisis.
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th August 2017, 08:00 AM   #280
crescent
Graduate Poster
 
crescent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 1,582
Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
If NK makes good on it's threat to fire missiles over Japan, I'm assuming this would be considered an act of war?
Some previous NK missile tests have gone over Japanese airspace:

North Korea fires missile over Japan (1998)

North Korea defies U.N. by firing long-range rocket over Okinawa (2016)

Then again, those didn't have the range to hit U.S. targets and could not yet carry nukes.

Still, I don't think a missile test would be enough to for the U.S. military to advise Trump to go to war, I don't think SK or Japan would consider it strong enough provocation either. That said, I've no idea how Trump himself or his closest advisors would react.
crescent is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:14 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.