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Old 7th July 2017, 03:23 PM   #321
Craig B
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
What Alexander Stephens said about Thomas Jefferson isn't as relevant as the actions taken by Jefferson during his lifetime.
What do you mean? Relevant to what? Stephens said Jefferson thought slavery was wrong, but he and others of his time didn't know how to put an end to it. Is that true? If true, it is most certainly "relevant".

Now please tell me, in light of Stephens' observations, whether slavery was the prime cause of secession. Clearly it was. Is that not "relevant"?
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Old 7th July 2017, 04:35 PM   #322
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
Within their own borders. The war proper started when the north invaded the south. Fort Sumter should've been a very minor incident. Besides, you could argue the first act of aggression was the northern troops - by then representative of a foreign country - not leaving.
You must be joking. The entire CSA, at best, was contested territory. The USA had at least as strong a claim to the area, if not more so, and especially the fort since they, you know, owned it.
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Old 7th July 2017, 05:06 PM   #323
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Corner Stone Speech given by Confederate Vice President Alexander Stephens

Quote:
The new constitution has put at rest, forever, all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institution African slavery as it exists amongst us the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. Jefferson in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the “rock upon which the old Union would split.” He was right.
Quote:
Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth.
But, yeah, the South was totally not fighting for the preservation of slavery.
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Old 7th July 2017, 06:15 PM   #324
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
No. If you believe the causes of a war are determined only by the side that started and lost the war, I can't help you.
The question isn't a general one but a specific one. You are right that the act of starting or losing a war doesn't make one side solely responsible.

But let's look at this actual specific case. The South seceded. Perhaps that was justified? For instance, was the South being oppressed by the North and thus their only regress was a war of secession?

No, they were oppressors, and in order to maintain that oppression, they seceded.

Yes, in this case we get to blame the south for the war.
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Old 7th July 2017, 07:16 PM   #325
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
There's an excellent article on how a peaceful abolition of slavery could've been achieved and why it was the better option here.
I don't buy it. The idea that the US should just sit on its hands, have its properties looted/stolen and just hope enough slaves start escaping (and do not get returned by the more sympathetic northern slave states) to make the whole system fall apart? No way.

Meanwhile, this assumes everything goes peachy in the rest of the Union. Nobody else decides 'hey, they left, maybe we should too?'.
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Old 7th July 2017, 08:23 PM   #326
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I find the idea of secession leading to peaceful emancipation pretty dubious, to say the least. In the real world, the underground railroad operated almost entirely for the border states before the secession, because escape was so difficult from the deeper south. The reward for escape might be greater after secession, but the difficulty would be at least as bad, and perhaps worse in a nation founded on racial oppression. The idea that a sufficient number of slaves would escape alive to doom slavery seems pretty speculative at best, and depends on slave holders not simply torturing, killing and imprisoning those they caught. We can speculate that the cost benefit equation would prevent investors in slave flesh from doing too much damage, but how much is too much? If, as the scenario given points out, the cost of slave recovery would rise, so might the cost benefit of murdering and torturing captured slaves. The fact that other countries had done away with slavery by 1888 omits the fact that no country other than the proposed confederacy was founded with the preservation of slavery and the institutional entrenchment of racism as its reason for existence in the first place. It would be nice to think that the slave owners of the South would behave well eventually, and no doubt many would be offended to think that Americans would lag behind their darker cousins in this regard, but I suspect the speculation on this far exceeds the evidence.
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Old 7th July 2017, 08:47 PM   #327
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Corner Stone Speech given by Confederate Vice President Alexander Stephens

But, yeah, the South was totally not fighting for the preservation of slavery.
"Hi, I'm Slavery Slave-Slave McSlaver, and I'm here to talk about how great slavery is!"
"That's terrible. You suck!"
"Don't go stereotyping me as a one-dimensional character, I'm multi-faceted! Now where's my slaving whip? Did I leave it in the slavemobile? I'd better send my slaves to fetch it, I'll need it for enslaving people at the slave factory by slave o'clock."
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Old 7th July 2017, 10:11 PM   #328
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
You must be joking. The entire CSA, at best, was contested territory. The USA had at least as strong a claim to the area, if not more so, and especially the fort since they, you know, owned it.
Yes. The fort was in federal, not state, ownership. And the first shots were fired not at the fort, but earlier, at a ship sent to supply it. The suggestion that federal forces shipping supplies - not even arms, but food - to the garrison of a federal fort, constitutes aggression, can't be taken seriously.

Out of interest, this is from the Smithsonian Magazine.
Fifty years ago, the question of slavery was so loaded, says Harold Holzer, author of Lincoln President-Elect and other works on the 16th president, that the issue virtually paralyzed the federal commission charged with organizing events commemorating the war’s centennial in 1961, from which African-Americans were virtually excluded ... At the time, some Southern members reacted with hostility to any emphasis on slavery, for fear that it would embolden the then-burgeoning civil rights movement. Only later were African-American views of the war and its origins finally heard, and scholarly opinion began to shift. Says Holzer, “Only in recent years have we returned to the obvious—that it was about slavery.”

As Emory Thomas, author of The Confederate Nation 1861-1865 and a retired professor of history at the University of Georgia, puts it, “The heart and soul of the secession argument was slavery and race. Most white Southerners favored racial subordination, and they wanted to protect the status quo. They were concerned that the Lincoln administration would restrict slavery, and they were right.”
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Old 8th July 2017, 12:03 AM   #329
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
You're trying to (not) answer a different question than the one I asked.


eta: But I do think it's rather funny that even your refusal is self-defeating.
I'm not responding to a question. I'm responding to your statement that the intentions of the North are immaterial.
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Old 8th July 2017, 12:15 AM   #330
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
What do you mean? Relevant to what? Stephens said Jefferson thought slavery was wrong, but he and others of his time didn't know how to put an end to it. Is that true? If true, it is most certainly "relevant".
Relevant to whether or not Thomas Jefferson should be honored as a great statesman or reviled as the slave rapist that he was. Stephens made his statements about Jefferson fifty or so years after Jefferson died. I judge a man by what he did during his lifetime, not what somebody said about him fifty years after he died.

Quote:
Now please tell me, in light of Stephens' observations, whether slavery was the prime cause of secession. Clearly it was. Is that not "relevant"?
We're not talking about the prime cause of secession. We're talking about the only cause of the Civil War.
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Old 8th July 2017, 04:05 AM   #331
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
I'm not responding to a question. I'm responding to your statement that the intentions of the North are immaterial.
They are immaterial to the question of the South's purpose in starting the Civil War. Different sides of a war almost* necessarily have different goals. Heck, different factions on the same side can have different purposes for fighting. I'm pretty sure Japan wasn't fighting for the dominance of the Aryan race during WWII.

So, again, what would it take to convince you that the South's primary purpose in starting the Civil War was to preserve the institution of slavery? So far, we have various pro-slavery letters of secession. We have a famous speech by the VPCSA saying that the Confederacy is based on the principle of black inferiority and their enslavement. I believe someone mentioned it being prominently enshrined in the CSA constitution, but I have not looked that up.

Forget the North's motivations for a minute. Why did the South want to start the war?




* I add the qualifier only because I'm not a historian,people are weird creatures, and there could easily be an outlier somewhere.
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Old 8th July 2017, 04:07 AM   #332
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
We're not talking about the prime cause of secession. We're talking about the only cause of the Civil War.
That is a distinction without a difference, but okay, why did the South want to secede from the USA?
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Old 8th July 2017, 06:41 AM   #333
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
That is a distinction without a difference, but okay, why did the South want to secede from the USA?
To escape from tyranny, because they loved freedom and believed everybody should have self-determination. People making other people do things against their will, why, that's the worst thing imaginable!
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Old 8th July 2017, 07:10 AM   #334
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
Relevant to whether or not Thomas Jefferson should be honored as a great statesman or reviled as the slave rapist that he was. Stephens made his statements about Jefferson fifty or so years after Jefferson died. I judge a man by what he did during his lifetime, not what somebody said about him fifty years after he died.


We're not talking about the prime cause of secession. We're talking about the only cause of the Civil War.
Yes we are, because this "only" is being smuggled in here so that apologists for slavery and racism can point to some alleged cause of the War which was nor slavery, and then say, slavery was not the only cause, so it need not be considered; for we are talking about the only cause.

No. We are talking about the primary cause of the secession, for we are agreed that the secession provoked the outbreak of the war. Now, for the umpteenth time, what caused secession? The question of slavery caused secession.

Also, Jefferson is important in this discussion only because of what later secessionist thinkers had to say about him, and what they said was: Jefferson thought slavery was wrong and unnatural. But, said the secessionists. Jefferson was wrong about that.

So go and admire or revile Jefferson as much or as little as you please. That changes nothing in this discussion, which deals with the fact that the South went to war to defend slavery - its "peculiar institution", the mainspring of its economy.
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Old 8th July 2017, 12:56 PM   #335
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
They are immaterial to the question of the South's purpose in starting the Civil War. Different sides of a war almost* necessarily have different goals. Heck, different factions on the same side can have different purposes for fighting. I'm pretty sure Japan wasn't fighting for the dominance of the Aryan race during WWII.

So, again, what would it take to convince you that the South's primary purpose in starting the Civil War was to preserve the institution of slavery? So far, we have various pro-slavery letters of secession. We have a famous speech by the VPCSA saying that the Confederacy is based on the principle of black inferiority and their enslavement. I believe someone mentioned it being prominently enshrined in the CSA constitution, but I have not looked that up.

Forget the North's motivations for a minute. Why did the South want to start the war?
I have a better idea: let's just say that the Civil War was fought because of slavery. Then, let's forget the South's motivation. They lost so who cares about them anyway? What is it about slavery that motivated the North? Did Northerners want to abolish slavery? Did they want to expand it? Did they want to abolish slavery because they believed in equality of the races? Did they want to abolish slavery because they feared having so many black people in their country?

Because if the Civil War was only about slavery, then it wasn't about preserving the Union or anything else. Why did the North fight?
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Old 8th July 2017, 01:10 PM   #336
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
I have a better idea: let's just say that the Civil War was fought because of slavery. Then, let's forget the South's motivation. They lost so who cares about them anyway?
The people who put up these monuments to honor these men for their violent, treasonous defense of slavery and white supremacy care!

These are statues to these people for their vile actions. The actions of other people hardly enter into it. We don't have statues honoring Jefferson for owning slaves. The British don't have statues of Nelson for having affairs. The south does have many statues and monuments for vile, despicable treason committed by these men in order to keep owning other humans as chattel.

The motivations of the North don't matter to how dishonorable and idiotic it is to have these monuments in places that glorify them.
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Old 8th July 2017, 01:26 PM   #337
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
I have a better idea: let's just say that the Civil War was fought because of slavery. Then, let's forget the South's motivation.
Evasion noted

Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
They lost so who cares about them anyway?
You clearly do. Why else would you work so hard to maintain the Lost Cause myth?
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Old 8th July 2017, 07:08 PM   #338
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
And it also sounds like wealth was not motivator for them.
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Really? It says many wanted to own slaves and join the privileged ranks. That sounds like about wealth.
You forgot the part where it says that even the dirt-poorest white day-laborer could at least point to the enslaved blacks and think for himself: I'm better than they. For them it was all about status, about not being the lowest class.
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Old 8th July 2017, 08:34 PM   #339
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I drove by the site today and noticed the barriers were down. So, I drove in and took a few pics, which are unfortunately too large to upload here. I'll have resize them later. The only thing that would let you know anything was there is a bald patch of earth covered in straw. Confederate Drive is now Government Drive.

No more false praise for a truly misguided period in our history.
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Old 8th July 2017, 08:52 PM   #340
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
No more false praise for a truly misguided period in our history.
He said, living in the shadow of a 630 foot steel arch commemorating "westward expansion", aka "Manifest Destiny", aka the divine right to genocide the crap out of native peoples in a quest to seize as much of the continent as possible for white people.
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Old 8th July 2017, 08:59 PM   #341
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
He said, living in the shadow of a 630 foot steel arch commemorating "westward expansion", aka "Manifest Destiny", aka the divine right to genocide the crap out of native peoples in a quest to seize as much of the continent as possible for white people.
It is and always has been to promote tourism.

Don't tell the rubes.
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Old 8th July 2017, 09:07 PM   #342
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
It is and always has been to promote tourism.

Don't tell the rubes.
That's just a double bluff. The real point of the thing is that it isn't an arch at all, it's a complete oval. It's a Stargate, and as soon as I get the Amulet of Xatakh I can open it to unleash upon an unsuspecting world all the eldritch fury of the ....but perhaps I've said too much. Yes, tourism. Definitely tourism. We want lots of tourists here, plump, juicy, blood-filled tourists. Slow-moving, unarmored, unsuspecting tourists.
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Old 8th July 2017, 09:09 PM   #343
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
That's just a double bluff. The real point of the thing is that it isn't an arch at all, it's a complete oval. It's a Stargate, and as soon as I get the Amulet of Xatakh I can open it to unleash upon an unsuspecting world all the eldritch fury of the ....but perhaps I've said too much. Yes, tourism. Definitely tourism. We want lots of tourists here, plump, juicy, blood-filled tourists. Slow-moving, unarmored, unsuspecting tourists.
It also controls the weather. True St. Louis myth.


What were we talking about?
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Old 8th July 2017, 09:14 PM   #344
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
It also controls the weather. True St. Louis myth.


What were we talking about?
We were talking about hypocrisy, and the wrongness of continuing to celebrate, in monument form, past injustices.
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Old 8th July 2017, 10:41 PM   #345
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
And here we have a prime example of smug Northerners of today pointing fingers at the uncivilized Southerners because slavery ended thirty or forty years earlier in the North than in the South.
Speaking as a person whose ancestors were the slaves in question, I have no use for these "are us northerners less racist than those southerners?" questions. This is a matter of pure, historical facts, according to primary sources - those being the speeches and documents of the secessionists.

And after that, all that's left is to point out, yet again, that I'd rather not have these monuments to how great it was when my still-living family members were formally treated as a pariah class hanging around.
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Old 9th July 2017, 03:39 AM   #346
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
I have a better idea: let's just say that the Civil War was fought because of slavery. Then, let's forget the South's motivation. They lost so who cares about them anyway? What is it about slavery that motivated the North? Did Northerners want to abolish slavery? Did they want to expand it? Did they want to abolish slavery because they believed in equality of the races? Did they want to abolish slavery because they feared having so many black people in their country?

Because if the Civil War was only about slavery, then it wasn't about preserving the Union or anything else. Why did the North fight?
It was action by the South - secession - that (we are agreed) initiated the war. First you smuggled in the word "only" but that wasn't enough, so you're doubling down by keeping the "only", and in addition pretending that the South had no motivation. Maybe you should consult these gentlemen. They got plenty motivation.

By these obfuscations you can argue anything you like. Let's forget that Japan bombed Pearl Harbour. They lost, so who cares about them anyway?

OK, then the Pacific war wasn't started by the Imperial Japanese government. So why did the USA fight? I know; it's because they feared having so many Japanese immigrants in California!

Last edited by Craig B; 9th July 2017 at 03:42 AM.
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Old 9th July 2017, 06:29 AM   #347
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
You forgot the part where it says that even the dirt-poorest white day-laborer could at least point to the enslaved blacks and think for himself: I'm better than they. For them it was all about status, about not being the lowest class.
Well, if you are making a social status argument then it isn't about slavery either.
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Old 9th July 2017, 06:42 AM   #348
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Well, if you are making a social status argument then it isn't about slavery either.
Are you arguing that slavery is NOT a social status?
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Old 9th July 2017, 06:42 AM   #349
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Well, if you are making a social status argument then it isn't about slavery either.
Slavery isn't a social status?
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Old 9th July 2017, 06:44 AM   #350
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Old 9th July 2017, 06:58 AM   #351
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Are you arguing that slavery is NOT a social status?
There are three scenarios presented in this thread

-slavery as an ideological cause where slavery is a valuable ends to itself

-slavery as a mechanism to generate wealth

-slavery as a mechanism to create a lower social tier to boost your own relative status.

Only the first one is actually about slavery. The other two are about wealth and relative social status.
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Old 9th July 2017, 07:17 AM   #352
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Only the first one is actually about slavery. The other two are about wealth and relative social status.
*Flat* What?

So it's not "about slavery" unless the slavery is being done only for mustache twirling super-villainy.
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Old 9th July 2017, 07:29 AM   #353
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
*Flat* What?

So it's not "about slavery" unless the slavery is being done only for mustache twirling super-villainy.
Correct. As I said earlier, bank robbing isn't about the money. It is about the things money can buy.
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Old 9th July 2017, 07:37 AM   #354
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Correct. As I said earlier, bank robbing isn't about the money. It is about the things money can buy.
OOooookkkkkaaaaaay.
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Old 9th July 2017, 07:39 AM   #355
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
OOooookkkkkaaaaaay.
So either you disagree with what it means to be about something, or you think people Rob banks because they like money for looks and not purchasing power. What do you disagree with and why?

Note: there are bank robbers who like the the thrill and not the money. But lets stick to the one who want money.

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Old 9th July 2017, 07:43 AM   #356
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Correct. As I said earlier, bank robbing isn't about the money. It is about the things money can buy.
If you want to go the route of craziness, you could just say that the only intention of anybody for any action is to impart motion to particular collections of molecules.
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Old 9th July 2017, 07:43 AM   #357
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I'm saying this is yet another pointless semantic hair split for Confederate apologist that I have zero intention of entertaining.

I'm done being herded to some strawman of "The Civil War was not 'about racism' unless every single Southerner was cartoonishly super-villain level racist and had zero other motivation and every Northerner was a perfectly flawless demi-God with an exactly modern concept of racial relations."
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Old 9th July 2017, 07:44 AM   #358
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
If you want to go the route of craziness, you could just say that the only intention of anybody for any action is to impart motion to particular collections of molecules.
The Civil War can really be blamed on the entropic decay of the universe.
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Old 9th July 2017, 07:47 AM   #359
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
There are three scenarios presented in this thread

-slavery as an ideological cause where slavery is a valuable ends to itself

-slavery as a mechanism to generate wealth

-slavery as a mechanism to create a lower social tier to boost your own relative status.

Only the first one is actually about slavery. The other two are about wealth and relative social status.
The other two are the ones that you are championing. That doesn't make them legitimate.
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Old 9th July 2017, 07:47 AM   #360
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
The Civil War can really be blamed on the entropic decay of the universe.
The universe really went downhill after the Big Bang.
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