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Tags LGBT issues , transgender incidents , transgender issues

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Old 2nd August 2017, 11:20 AM   #241
Lithrael
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But, Arg, I don't think anyone here is demanding that you think of that person as the gender they want you to refer to them as, just that you use the forms of address they request. (They'd like you to, but I'd like a pony.)

The issue of what gender they 'really' are can be argued as much as you like as long as it's not in front of them or by name, IMO.

I asked you a direct question after reading the whole thread and not being certain what lines you were drawing on which bit of the sand and you did not answer it.

Last edited by Lithrael; 2nd August 2017 at 11:26 AM.
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Old 2nd August 2017, 11:21 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Are you making the argument that if we accept that trans-women want to be called 'she', it's a slippery slope to accepting pedophilia?

Yes, you are making that argument. Aren't you ashamed?
Well, here's the thing. The person whom I was responding to had pointed out that his grandfather was a racist. His mother grew up not being racist, but she was homophobic. They each had these blind spots. So the question is pretty obvious: what is his blind spot? What is his irrational prejudice that his grandkids will cluck disapprovingly about years from now?

Adult babies? People who have sex with animals? Plural marriage? I mean it's not as if the next generation of liberals is going to stop discovering new victims of society that they can adopt as a pet cause, thereby proving themselves more tolerant than their benighted ancestors.
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Old 2nd August 2017, 11:22 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
You just refuse to properly gender them.
"Properly" and "the way they want" aren't the same thing.
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Old 2nd August 2017, 11:23 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
But, Arg, I don't think anyone here is demanding that you think of that person as the gender they want you to refer to them as, just that you use the forms of address they request.
Which brings me back to an earlier question: how far does that principle go?
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Old 2nd August 2017, 11:35 AM   #245
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Well, if someone who's white as snow pretends to be black, and I tell them that they're speaking nonsense, am I being rude? Should I shut up and cater to that belief/claim? How about people who say they're polar bears?

At what point do we start valuing objective reality over belief?
I would suppose that it might depend on circumstances, some of which you may not know to look at a person. This country's history abounds shamefully with examples of people whose supposed race does not match their appearance, whose ability to vote, to join organizations, to live where they wish, even to live, is based on assumptions about race.

I really do not think it is reasonable to suggest that claiming race is the same as claiming you're a polar bear. Do you really? Are you saying you're confident enough in your perception of appearance to accuse a stranger of lying?
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Old 2nd August 2017, 11:40 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I would suppose that it might depend on circumstances, some of which you may not know to look at a person. This country's history abounds shamefully with examples of people whose supposed race does not match their appearance, whose ability to vote, to join organizations, to live where they wish, even to live, is based on assumptions about race.
That's unfortunately true.

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I really do not think it is reasonable to suggest that claiming race is the same as claiming you're a polar bear. Do you really?
Here's the problem: if the entire set of criteria is the claim, then yes, it's the same thing. If the claim is not the whole story, then I'd like someone to tell me what the criteria are. So far, the claim is the only one that has been mentioned. DNA and genitalia and secondary sexual characteristics are out, apparently.

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Are you saying you're confident enough in your perception of appearance to accuse a stranger of lying?
Who says they're lying? I sure didn't imply that.
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Old 2nd August 2017, 11:43 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Well, here's the thing. The person whom I was responding to had pointed out that his grandfather was a racist. His mother grew up not being racist, but she was homophobic. They each had these blind spots. So the question is pretty obvious: what is his blind spot? What is his irrational prejudice that his grandkids will cluck disapprovingly about years from now?

Adult babies? People who have sex with animals? Plural marriage? I mean it's not as if the next generation of liberals is going to stop discovering new victims of society that they can adopt as a pet cause, thereby proving themselves more tolerant than their benighted ancestors.
Usually these "victims of society" aren't groups identified as causing harm to other groups. You know, like pedophiles.

Is that a distinction you seriously don't grasp?
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Old 2nd August 2017, 11:45 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Usually these "victims of society" aren't groups identified as causing harm to other groups. You know, like pedophiles.
Careful now. There are quite a few less scrupulous people who would use the higher crime rate in the black population of the US as a sign that they are more dangerous to other groups as a response to your point here. Not that you don't actually have a point, that is.
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Old 2nd August 2017, 11:52 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Which brings me back to an earlier question: how far does that principle go?
Well it's an Overton window kind of thing isn't it? Asking for a form of address that only ambiguously matches is generally reasonable because mostly people decided it was better than not. Asking for one that doesn't seem to match like with this pregnant bloke gets some blowback and the window has to stretch to fit him but it does. Actual five headed dragon McGee is well outside and we don't have to feel rude not calling him dragon McGee. There's some biological/psychological window dressing but it's 90% social consensus. By that I mean, The facts are there but they're not very relevant to what the social consensus ends up being.
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Old 2nd August 2017, 11:54 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Come on now, Johnny. I don't live in NYC but I can still disagree with aspects of the law.
Yes, you most certainly can.

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Fair enough, then. I still don't know how that's bigoted or dehumanising.
And I still don't know why it's necessary to push the envelope. Why not just err on the side of caution?

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Pretend, yes, since I should shut up about it and not challenge it. At least you're not asking me to believe it.
When I choose not to curse around my friend who's offended by cursing, I'm not pretending to believe cursing is offensive. I'm merely respecting her very simple request. So I guess I'm just not seeing it the same way.
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Old 2nd August 2017, 11:56 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
And I still don't know why it's necessary to push the envelope. Why not just err on the side of caution?
The issue is that a whole set of things were described by various posters in various threads to be dehumanising, and some of them amount to little more than a disagreement. So making sure that there's an issue of dehumanisation there would seem like an important step before we decide what's cautious or not.

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When I choose not to curse around my friend who's offended by cursing, I'm not pretending to believe cursing is offensive. I'm merely respecting her very simple request. So I guess I'm just not seeing it the same way.
I guess so.
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Old 2nd August 2017, 12:01 PM   #252
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Usually these "victims of society" aren't groups identified as causing harm to other groups. You know, like pedophiles.

Is that a distinction you seriously don't grasp?
You could make an argument that the harm caused is not so much by the sex as it is by society's reaction to it. We all know there are cases where underage kids fall in love with adults, where the sex is entirely consensual, except for this silly social construct of childhood being complete asexual.

Let's try a different one. How do you fell about adult incest? Why are you so intolerant?
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Old 2nd August 2017, 12:06 PM   #253
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
The issue is that a whole set of things were described by various posters in various threads to be dehumanising, and some of them amount to little more than a disagreement. So making sure that there's an issue of dehumanisation there would seem like an important step before we decide what's cautious or not.
Okay, I'm willing to concede that "dehumanizing" is too strong a word.

Can we settle on rude and disrespectful?
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Old 2nd August 2017, 12:12 PM   #254
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
You could make an argument that the harm caused is not so much by the sex as it is by society's reaction to it.
You could. It would be laughably terrible. But yeah, you could make it.

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We all know there are cases where underage kids fall in love with adults, where the sex is entirely consensual, except for this silly social construct of childhood being complete asexual.
And the inability of children to give informed consent, the significant imbalance in the power dynamic between and an adult and a child… etc.

All such silly things.

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Let's try a different one. How do you fell about adult incest?
Personally, I think…

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Why are you so intolerant?
Oh… I guess you weren’t actually interested in hearing my answer.
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Old 2nd August 2017, 12:19 PM   #255
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Okay, I'm willing to concede that "dehumanizing" is too strong a word.

Can we settle on rude and disrespectful?
Yes, that sounds reasonable.
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Old 2nd August 2017, 12:22 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
HA! How amusing. I say that I support trans people in their quest to become the gender of their choice, that I oppose discrimination against them based on their condition, and then you come in and pretend like I said the exact opposite, repeatedly and even after I show to the world that you're the dishonest party in the discussion, and now _I_ have to be responsible for the "actions" you made up for me?
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Pretend, yes, since I should shut up about it and not challenge it. At least you're not asking me to believe it.
And how would refusing to use pronouns that match the gender of their choice be supportive?
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Old 2nd August 2017, 12:24 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
You're right of course. That's why nothing was ever gained by challenging the deeply-held belief that the earth was the center of the universe, or that mental illness was due to demonic possession. No, of course telling people that their beliefs are wrong has only brought us pain and misery.
I'm not seeing these as particularly good analogies. Telling transwoman student that her "belief" is wrong is advancing anything how?
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Old 2nd August 2017, 12:32 PM   #258
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
You could make an argument that the harm caused is not so much by the sex as it is by society's reaction to it. We all know there are cases where underage kids fall in love with adults, where the sex is entirely consensual, except for this silly social construct of childhood being complete asexual.
I thought it was a pretty good example of the prejudice that grandkids may come to disapprove of. The careless use of language that fails to distinguish between paedophiles and child molesters.
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Old 2nd August 2017, 12:34 PM   #259
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
"Properly" and "the way they want" aren't the same thing.
Yep and I need to have a detailed medical report to gender them. It is the only way to be sure. So we need to first end this silly idea of medical privacy.
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Old 2nd August 2017, 01:07 PM   #260
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
But, Arg, I don't think anyone here is demanding that you think of that person as the gender they want you to refer to them as, just that you use the forms of address they request. (They'd like you to, but I'd like a pony.)
Oh, but some people here actually are. Tyr, for example, claimed that a man who decided he wants to be a woman actually becomes a woman.
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Old 2nd August 2017, 01:07 PM   #261
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
My crucial point is that one's beliefs does not change reality, and that sex/gender are not determined by one's beliefs. It's that simple. The idea of challenging people on those beliefs was brought up by others as a distraction.
So then, how do you objectively and factually know a person's gender? Not sex, gender. What is your definition and what is your methodology?

You seem to be saying in multiple comments that at least some trans people are incorrect in their own assertions about their own gender and you have access to the truth. What is that truth?
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Old 2nd August 2017, 01:07 PM   #262
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Originally Posted by sylvan8798 View Post
And how would refusing to use pronouns that match the gender of their choice be supportive?
It's really fascinating how the use of words can spin something in one direction. Let's certainly not point out that I never said I refused to use them, or that I specifically said that I'd use them post-transition. Let's just ignore that, which allows us to pretend that I've said something different!

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Telling transwoman student that her "belief" is wrong is advancing anything how?
Way to miss the point. Deliberately, I take it?
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Old 2nd August 2017, 01:12 PM   #263
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
So then, how do you objectively and factually know a person's gender? Not sex, gender.
You can't have one without the other. Gender is the expression of one's sex in a particular context.

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What is your definition and what is your methodology?
The definition is a mix of physical characterstics: Genetics, genitalia, secondary characteristics, etc. As for the methodology of looking at something and telling what it is, I think you know exactly how that works. You use the same "methodology" to recognise people you know just by looking at them, and it almost always works.

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You seem to be saying in multiple comments that at least some trans people are incorrect in their own assertions about their own gender and you have access to the truth.
Gender isn't some black box that only the person has access to. If a person is objectively male, then their assertion that they are female is mistaken. Fortunately for them they have means to change that, thanks to modern technology and methods.
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Old 2nd August 2017, 01:14 PM   #264
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Yep and I need to have a detailed medical report to gender them.
That's your problem, not mine.
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Old 2nd August 2017, 01:27 PM   #265
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Oh, but some people here actually are. Tyr, for example, claimed that a man who decided he wants to be a woman actually becomes a woman.
Tyr having a position that he holds and argues in favor of isn't Tyr demanding that everyone agrees with him. He'd like you to, sure. He can even say he thinks you're wrong for disagreeing with him. But the only thing I've seen people actually wanting out of anyone else as far as actually doing things is for them to respect pronouns/names.

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Old 2nd August 2017, 01:32 PM   #266
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
But the only thing I've seen people actually wanting out of anyone else as far as actually doing things is for them to respect pronouns/names.
Do you not think it goes a bit far with xe, xim, and all of those other variants that people are supposed to learn just because someone decides that's what they should be called?
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Old 2nd August 2017, 01:33 PM   #267
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
Tyr having a position that he holds and argues in favor of isn't Tyr demanding that everyone agrees with him.
When you claim something is objectively true, then you are claiming that anyone who disagrees is wrong. And when you insist that you are right and they are wrong, you are insisting that they change their position to match yours. If you didn't care if they maintain their wrong position, you wouldn't argue against it.

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But the only thing I've seen people actually wanting out of anyone else as far as actually doing things is for them to respect pronouns/names.
Which Argumemnon never said he wouldn't do.
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Old 2nd August 2017, 01:42 PM   #268
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Arg's comments on page 2 made that unclear, he said a lot of things that made it sound as if anyone who hadn't got far enough into a transition to satisfy him wanted their pronouns respected they could 'hear it from someone else' and that's why I asked for clarification which I did not get.

I'm not here to argue about the nature of argument.

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Old 2nd August 2017, 01:50 PM   #269
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
Do you not think it goes a bit far with xe, xim, and all of those other variants that people are supposed to learn just because someone decides that's what they should be called?
Yes but the whole thing is new and all new things look stupid. It takes time for the actually stupid stuff to settle out and the good ideas to rise to the top. There's no harm I can see in letting it do its thing at its own pace.
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Old 2nd August 2017, 02:21 PM   #270
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Sure why not?
Because men do not have babies. That's just an objective truth. Men who were born women do have babies, though. So that's the problem. It isn't reflective of reality to say that a transman is fully a man. Especially when they are pregnant.
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And again biology is not clear cut. If you want to be clear cut then you have to stop thinking of people who have had hysterectomies as women.
Why? Her biology is clear cut. A surgeons knife does not alter her biology one whit.
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And of course people with vasectomies are not men either.
Why? A little snip on a tube doesn't change biology. Just as, in the present case, saying you are a man, living as a man and insisting you are a man does not change biology.
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As for gender, as a social construct that changes all the time. The modern ideas of what it means to be a man vs a woman is radically different than it was 50 years ago. For example no women are even allowed to sign things for themselves.
Maybe in 50 years, little kids will grow up thinking that men can have babies.

"Daddy, I'm a boy, can I have babies?"
"No."
"But Michael's daddy is a man and he can have babies."

I'm sure there will be some fun conversations in the future.
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Old 2nd August 2017, 02:22 PM   #271
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
Do you not think it goes a bit far with xe, xim, and all of those other variants that people are supposed to learn just because someone decides that's what they should be called?
Who's making you learn these terms and on average how many times a day does this come up in your life?
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Old 2nd August 2017, 02:27 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post



Who says they're lying? I sure didn't imply that.
I would say you certainly did if you presume that a person who claims one gender should not be identified by that gender. You are saying "you say you're an X but I say you're a Y." You can fudge it and say the lie is an unfortunate consequence of their illness or confusion, but if you say they're not what they say, and insist on their being something else, that's what you're doing, and that's the case whether you're right or wrong.
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Old 2nd August 2017, 02:35 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I would say you certainly did if you presume that a person who claims one gender should not be identified by that gender. You are saying "you say you're an X but I say you're a Y." You can fudge it and say the lie is an unfortunate consequence of their illness or confusion, but if you say they're not what they say, and insist on their being something else, that's what you're doing, and that's the case whether you're right or wrong.
If one believes that transgenderism is a mental illness, then it follows that one wouldn't think the ill person is lying. They truly believe it due to their illness. I don't think that the person with Somatoparaphrenia is lying when they say they believe the arm they were born with doesn't belong to them. I do however thing they are wrong.
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Old 2nd August 2017, 02:42 PM   #274
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I would say you certainly did if you presume that a person who claims one gender should not be identified by that gender. You are saying "you say you're an X but I say you're a Y." You can fudge it and say the lie is an unfortunate consequence of their illness or confusion, but if you say they're not what they say, and insist on their being something else, that's what you're doing, and that's the case whether you're right or wrong.
Lying requires a deliberate attempt to deceive. Someone who is wrong, deluded, misinformed, or whatever, is not lying. Some might be lying, I guess, but I would think that the overwhelming majority truly believe it. Hence the word: belief.
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Old 2nd August 2017, 02:43 PM   #275
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Which Argumemnon never said he wouldn't do.
Well, see, I said that I shouldn't, ergo I wouldn't, ergo I won't, ergo trans-people should die.

See how the logic chain goes?
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Old 2nd August 2017, 02:46 PM   #276
sir drinks-a-lot
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Who's making you learn these terms and on average how many times a day does this come up in your life?
Who is making me use these terms? Gender activists are behind the movement if that's what you're asking. Have you not heard of these new pronouns? Here is a chart from one organization. There are many.

How many times a day does it come up in my life? It hasn't yet. How is this relevant?
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Old 2nd August 2017, 03:08 PM   #277
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
This is the third time I ask you to give me your criteria for making this determination. You've said that the person's identification is not the only criterion, but you have avoided giving me a full list of them. Are you going to do this now?
I already did, you just missed it because it was directed to someone who is making a full argument.



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What are you talking about? We're simply using different criteria.

You're using criteria from a different context for 'woman' to justify being rude to people (and in fact, denying that it's rude). I will not coddle this delusion.



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That comes back to exactly what I said: I'm not arguing in good faith because it's impossible to do so and not reach the same conclusion as you.

No, you're not arguing in good faith because you continually refuse to clarify, and ignore the very important context people have been trying to get you to incorporate. If you did incorporated this context into your argument and still came to a different conclusion, that would be one thing (and I don't see how you could come to a radically different conclusion, by it is hypothetically possible), that would be arguing in good faith.



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Argument from decree. Very bold.

You're the one insisting you know the truth of other people's gender. Again, do you not see the mirror held up?



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That doesn't follow at all. If I say you're ugly, and you respond that I'm ugly too, saying that your response is BS because you just threw back mine at me doesn't mean you're not ugly.

Except that doesn't even resemble what I did. I took the form of your argument and used it advancing a different argument from yours.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Which is another way of saying "because reasons".

And it's not a trap when you can't raise a legitimate argument and resort to straw man bad faith arguments instead.

Why yes, there are reasons that something that can be childish is not always childish such as the mirror argument. It's all in how one is using it. It was not intended to troll, but to illuminate the flaws in the other argument and advance discussion. It was also not done in an over the top, mocking, manner.

Also, I already did raise a legitimate argument, I only did it to someone who would actually consider it rather than ignore all but the little parts they think they could attack.

I also have not straw manned anyone's argument here to my knowledge, but speaking of that...


Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Oh, but some people here actually are. Tyr, for example, claimed that a man who decided he wants to be a woman actually becomes a woman.

...a transman or transwoman are not just people who 'decide' to become a different gender. Again, context matters. In the context we've been talking about (interpersonal interactions and to some degree societal treatment), a transman is a man and a transwoman is a woman. Those who want to slip in the sex definition of men and women (male and female) are those straw manning.
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Old 2nd August 2017, 03:37 PM   #278
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
Who is making me use these terms? Gender activists are behind the movement if that's what you're asking. Have you not heard of these new pronouns? Here is a chart from one organization. There are many.
I don't deny their existence. Lots of silly things exist. I'm just wondering who's making you use them. Was it a sternly worded email? Did hired goons show up at your door?

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How many times a day does it come up in my life? It hasn't yet. How is this relevant?
Just curious. Personally, I prefer to deal with problems that actually exist. Your mileage may vary.
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Old 2nd August 2017, 04:05 PM   #279
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First, let me say thank you for responding!

Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
You can't have one without the other. Gender is the expression of one's sex in a particular context.
What makes you say that? What discipline or objective set of observable facts leads you that claim?

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The definition is a mix of physical characterstics: Genetics, genitalia, secondary characteristics, etc.
That sounds a lot more like a commonly held definition of sex. What scientific or academic discipline do you draw from when you say it's a definition of gender? I'm not familiar with a field that defines it that way.

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As for the methodology of looking at something and telling what it is, I think you know exactly how that works. You use the same "methodology" to recognise people you know just by looking at them, and it almost always works.
Yes, in the majority of humans, sex matches gender matches physical appearance and presentation. But the thing is, you seem to be saying that looking at someone and insisting that what you see is correct should be acceptable behavior. Even if you consider sex and gender equivalent, that can lead to a bad outcome. Can't be bothered to look it up unless you insist, but there has already been a case of a cisgendered woman entering a bathroom who was attacked and had the police called on her because someone thought she was a trans woman aka "A man pretending to be a woman".

It may "almost always" work, but the consequences for getting it wrong are at the very least pretty hurtful, and the consequences for letting the person you're talking to make that determination are... what?


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Gender isn't some black box that only the person has access to. If a person is objectively male, then their assertion that they are female is mistaken. Fortunately for them they have means to change that, thanks to modern technology and methods.
Male and Female are sex terms. A person who is Male(sex) may assert that they are a woman(gender).
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Old 2nd August 2017, 04:11 PM   #280
sir drinks-a-lot
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Personally, I prefer to deal with problems that actually exist.
What a strange notion, that problems that don't affect oneself personally don't actually exist.

Also, you yourself spend a lot of time on this very forum discussing problems that don't affect you personally.
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