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Old 8th August 2017, 10:51 AM   #81
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
I doubt it. It still would be highly disruptive to the company. But good try...
I bet it would be different. This would be an employee expressing a problem at work where they worry they are inferior to their coworkers. There is a different power dynamic involved.
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Old 8th August 2017, 10:51 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
Women aren't that stupid.
Are you implying men are stupid? You are fired!
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Old 8th August 2017, 10:53 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by bytewizard View Post
If the now ex-Google employee was a woman, would she still have her job?
Hard to say. Women who don't toe the SJW dogma and get accused of wrongthink often suffer death threats and the like from the online Progressive hate machine. On the other hand, Google is likely to suffer legal and PR repercussions from this and that is only for firing a white guy. Firing a women in such a case would probably increase the severity of the consequences Google would have likely faced.
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Old 8th August 2017, 10:56 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Tony View Post
Hard to say. Women who don't toe the SJW dogma and get accused of wrongthink often suffer death threats and the like from the online Progressive hate machine. On the other hand, Google is likely to suffer legal and PR repercussions from this and that is only for firing a white guy. Firing a women in such a case would probably increase the severity of the consequences Google would have likely faced.
Not to mention a transgender of color.
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Old 8th August 2017, 10:56 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
I have never heard of a BS or PhD systems biology program that requires learning of human behavior physiology.
We weren't talking about the underlying physiology which gives rise to psychology, but the study of human psychology itself. Perhaps Damore has no formal training in this subject at all, but it still doesn't make sense to assume he has just as much as the average tech guy with zero background in biology. (Unless the average comp sci grad does indeed have the same exposure to psychology as the average biology graduate.)

Let's assume he has no training in psych, though. It should be easy to point out exactly what he got wrong, on the facts.
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Old 8th August 2017, 10:56 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
Women aren't that stupid.
Now now, there are women who really are that stupid. Never over estimate any group of people
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Old 8th August 2017, 11:09 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Tony View Post
Hard to say. Women who don't toe the SJW dogma and get accused of wrongthink often suffer death threats and the like from the online Progressive hate machine. On the other hand, Google is likely to suffer legal and PR repercussions from this and that is only for firing a white guy. Firing a women in such a case would probably increase the severity of the consequences Google would have likely faced.
Don't count on it. Seems perfectly legal to me. And as to PR repercussions- sure, all these anti-diversity white guys are going to switch to Yahoo (Oath?) searches. No doubt you should sell your Google stock and buy whatever is left of Yahoo. Or you might try Bing- do they still run a Google search within the Bing engine?


BTW- I am more aware of women who are targets of right wing Internet attacks than "SJWs" but that would be off topic.
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Old 8th August 2017, 11:12 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
We weren't talking about the underlying physiology which gives rise to psychology, but the study of human psychology itself. Perhaps Damore has no formal training in this subject at all, but it still doesn't make sense to assume he has just as much as the average tech guy with zero background in biology. (Unless the average comp sci grad does indeed have the same exposure to psychology as the average biology graduate.)

Let's assume he has no training in psych, though. It should be easy to point out exactly what he got wrong, on the facts.
Is he even a "biology graduate"? I have a BSc. in Physics. Among my choices of a Masters degrees is one in "Physics of Materials and Biological Systems". Taking that would not make me a biologist.
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Old 8th August 2017, 11:13 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by paulhutch View Post
It boggles my mind that any employee in the USA thinks they won't be fired when they create a document like that and distribute it to the entire company using company resources without permission of their bosses. That is some extreme stupidity on the employees part.

Business Insider's article covers the legal issues very well.
http://www.businessinsider.com/james...-speech-2017-8

Their summation made a good point too.
Quote:
It is rare that conservatives argue for the rights of employers to be restricted when it comes to firing workers. They ought to tread very carefully with that insistence. Such a right could give every communist, every member of the KKK, and every Hillary Clinton voter an equal right to fill up their internal workplace bulletin boards with propaganda of their pleasing.
Of course I'm sure this can be discounted. As can the entire article.

Undoubtedly they are just another far left-wing propaganda organ with extreme bias toward anything which smacks of Conservative Values™.
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Old 8th August 2017, 11:15 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I bet it would be different. This would be an employee expressing a problem at work where they worry they are inferior to their coworkers. There is a different power dynamic involved.
The question was clearly asking if the same memo was produced by a woman. You appear to be implying a very different memo questioning if the woman herself was feeling inferior to others. A memo by a woman implying that women (and minorities) in general at Google were inferior to white males would create the same problems as in the OP and is likely to be treated the same.

But I notice that this thread has deteriorated into a bunch of hypotheticals in this regard. Perhaps we can return to what actually happened, rather than pure hypotheticals that are themselves based on prejudice and unproven opinion?.

Last edited by Giordano; 8th August 2017 at 11:16 AM.
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Old 8th August 2017, 11:18 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
And as to PR repercussions- sure, all these anti-diversity white guys...
1) The memo wasn't anti-diversity
2) It isn't just white people who agree with the content of the memo
3) It isn't just guys who agree with the content of the memo
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Old 8th August 2017, 11:19 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
The question was clearly asking if the same memo was produced by a woman. You appear to be implying a very different memo questioning if the woman herself was feeling inferior to others. A memo by a woman implying that women (and minorities) in general at Google were inferior to white males would create the same problems as in the OP and is likely to be treated the same.

But I notice that this thread has deteriorated into a bunch of hypotheticals in this regard. Perhaps we can return to what actually happened, rather than pure hypotheticals that are themselves based on prejudice and unproven opinion?.
I meant the exact same memo. I would have totally different read if a woman in stem submitted that than a man. My first thought if that was submitted by a person in the inferior power dynamic would be is this doing okay.

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Old 8th August 2017, 11:24 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Is he even a "biology graduate"? I have a BSc. in Physics. Among my choices of a Masters degrees is one in "Physics of Materials and Biological Systems". Taking that would not make me a biologist.
I didn't say he is a biologist, I said it was wrong for you to blithely assume he has the same training in psychology as the average tech guy. Your assumption may be correct, but it still looks like a blind leap.
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Old 8th August 2017, 11:26 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
1) The memo wasn't anti-diversity
2) It isn't just white people who agree with the content of the memo
3) It isn't just guys who agree with the content of the memo

So what.

It is Google's company and Google's email system.

Did Google agree with the memo?

Did Google agree that it was appropriate for it to be distributed to all of their employees through their internal mail system?

Those are the questions which matter.
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Old 8th August 2017, 11:28 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
So what.

It is Google's company and Google's email system.

Did Google agree with the memo?

Did Google agree that it was appropriate for it to be distributed to all of their employees through their internal mail system?

Those are the questions which matter.
While I agree with you, it remains that Sir-drinks-a-lot was addressing Giordano's less-than-charitable comments.
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Old 8th August 2017, 11:31 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
So what.

It is Google's company and Google's email system.

Did Google agree with the memo?

Did Google agree that it was appropriate for it to be distributed to all of their employees through their internal mail system?

Those are the questions which matter.
None of those questions matter. What they have the power to do is not in dispute. We want to discuss what they should do.
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Old 8th August 2017, 11:37 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
None of those questions matter. What they have the power to do is not in dispute. We want to discuss what they should do.
Do we?
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Old 8th August 2017, 11:37 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
None of those questions matter. What they have the power to do is not in dispute. We want to discuss what they should do.
They should have worded their policy:


“A diverse mix of voices leads to better discussions, decisions, and outcomes for everyone.”
-Sundar Pichai, CEO, Google

As:


“A diverse mix of race and gender leads to better decisions, and outcomes for everyone.”

That way it would never have sounded as if they were encouraging debate/discussion/diversity of voices and the firing would simply be coming across as managing their brand, rather than as hypocrites.
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Old 8th August 2017, 11:38 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Don't count on it. Seems perfectly legal to me. And as to PR repercussions- sure, all these anti-diversity white guys are going to switch to Yahoo (Oath?) searches. No doubt you should sell your Google stock and buy whatever is left of Yahoo. Or you might try Bing- do they still run a Google search within the Bing engine?
What something seems to you is irrelevant. The legality of his firing isn't so cut and dry.

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/08/07/it-m...ommentary.html

I'm not making any solid claims myself. But we will see how this plays out. Despite the actual legality, I think things like this should probably be legal. This case perfectly demonstrates how capitalist interests undermine civil rights. I don't want employers forcing a political/social viewpoint on to employees anymore than I would want them to impose religious views.

Also, Google is more than a search engine. And there are other, worse, ways they could suffer than people switching to another service.

Quote:
BTW- I am more aware of women who are targets of right wing Internet attacks than "SJWs" but that would be off topic.
I'm not particularly interested in what you're aware of.
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Old 8th August 2017, 11:39 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
It would be stupid, indeed insane, for the management of a huge company to enter into a public debate with every employee who disagreed with a goal or an established policy of the company.
I agree.

But firing the employee still proves that they aren't actually interested in diversity. They're interested in covering their asses and appeasing activists who demand one sort of diversity but hate other kinds.
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Old 8th August 2017, 11:47 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I agree.

But firing the employee still proves that they aren't actually interested in diversity. They're interested in covering their asses and appeasing activists who demand one sort of diversity but hate other kinds.
Of course they only want a diversity of what they judge to be good things.

Who would want a truly diverse level of skills? We got some geniuses working here, let's get some morons to make us diverse.
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Old 8th August 2017, 11:49 AM   #102
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In my opinion if this memo was done on company time and/or sent through company email then firing him is fine (IMHO) unless they encourage and allow other to send emails on thoughts, ideas etc.
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Old 8th August 2017, 11:49 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
So what.

It is Google's company and Google's email system.

Did Google agree with the memo?

Did Google agree that it was appropriate for it to be distributed to all of their employees through their internal mail system?

Those are the questions which matter.
1. Doesn't matter if they agreed with him. Google has a history of encouraging employees to share their different views

2. Yes. Google set their system up for this very reason.

https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/...rsial/dlbc48s/

The rest of that thread is pretty good. A few current and former Google employees weigh in.
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Old 8th August 2017, 11:50 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
Of course they only want a diversity of what they judge to be good things.

Who would want a truly diverse level of skills? We got some geniuses working here, let's get some morons to make us diverse.
Diversity of skills is one thing. Diversity of opinion is a bit more important: if you exclude opinions you don't like, then you lack the most important diversity.

Not that I think that was an significant part in the decision to fire him. You just don't send a memo like this with no permission, regardless of content. ETA: Unless a specific company allows this sort of thing, in which case the firing seems unjustified.
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Old 8th August 2017, 11:54 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Diversity of skills is one thing. Diversity of opinion is a bit more important: if you exclude opinions you don't like, then you lack the most important diversity.

Not that I think that was an significant part in the decision to fire him. You just don't send a memo like this with no permission, regardless of content. ETA: Unless a specific company allows this sort of thing, in which case the firing seems unjustified.
He was not fired for sending a memo, he was fired for the content of the memo. He was fired “perpetuating gender stereotypes.”

https://www.yahoo.com/news/google-fi...030901056.html

ETA: Diversity of opinion is more important? So neo-nazis, 9/11 deniers, racists are good to have on staff for diversity sake?
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Old 8th August 2017, 11:54 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
Of course they only want a diversity of what they judge to be good things.

Who would want a truly diverse level of skills? We got some geniuses working here, let's get some morons to make us diverse.
The diversity they won't permit is ideological. They pretend to, but it's just pretense.
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Old 8th August 2017, 11:56 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
ETA: Unless a specific company allows this sort of thing, in which case the firing seems unjustified.
Google allows this sort of thing.
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Old 8th August 2017, 11:57 AM   #108
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I've read over this with some interest.

My take? Political correctness has become the new intolerance. This is especially worrisome when we consider that it comes disguised as tolerance. It's painfully clear that the New Left is just as intolerant as the Old Right; they're just not tolerating different things.

Those out there who say 'this is why Trump won' make a valid point. We see people looking at the Left's overreach, and thinking that being a racist / sexist / antisemite / whateverphobic really isn't so bad. After all, they seem to be in pretty good company!

It's time to treat the PC crowd the same way we'd treat any other group of hatemongers. Just ignore them; they will die off soon enough.
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Old 8th August 2017, 11:59 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
He was fired “perpetuating gender stereotypes.”
That's the ******** they're telling people. It's hilarious that there are idiots who belive them.
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Old 8th August 2017, 11:59 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The diversity they won't permit is ideological. They pretend to, but it's just pretense.
Ideologies that they find offensive are not part of the diversity they seek. What is wrong with that?
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Old 8th August 2017, 12:00 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by Ozzie View Post
I've read over this with some interest.

My take? Political correctness has become the new intolerance. This is especially worrisome when we consider that it comes disguised as tolerance. It's painfully clear that the New Left is just as intolerant as the Old Right; they're just not tolerating different things.

Those out there who say 'this is why Trump won' make a valid point. We see people looking at the Left's overreach, and thinking that being a racist / sexist / antisemite / whateverphobic really isn't so bad. After all, they seem to be in pretty good company!

It's time to treat the PC crowd the same way we'd treat any other group of hatemongers. Just ignore them; they will die off soon enough.
This is a person who believes a whole fraction of workers are inferior based on their genetics. That person is simply not a team player.
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Old 8th August 2017, 12:00 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by Tony View Post
That's the ******** they're telling people. It's hilarious that there are idiots who belive them.
And what is the real reason?
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Old 8th August 2017, 12:00 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
He was not fired for sending a memo, he was fired for the content of the memo. He was fired “perpetuating gender stereotypes."
How positively Orwellian.

Meanwhile, some Google workers were so upset about people perpetuating gender stereotypes that the decided to live up to those stereotypes:
Another software engineer who used to work for Google, Kelly Ellis, says some women who still work at the company stayed home Monday because the memo made them "uncomfortable going back to work."
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Old 8th August 2017, 12:01 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
Ideologies that they find offensive are not part of the diversity they seek. What is wrong with that?
What's wrong is the dishonesty about what they seek.
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Old 8th August 2017, 12:01 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
This is a person who believes a whole fraction of workers are inferior based on their genetics. That person is simply not a team player.
You can't say that, I'm sure it depends on the make up of the team.
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Old 8th August 2017, 12:02 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
You can't say that, I'm sure it depends on the make up of the team.
I shouldn't have to manage team make up based on that.
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Old 8th August 2017, 12:05 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
And what is the real reason?
Politics
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Old 8th August 2017, 12:06 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by Tony View Post
Politics
This might come as a shock to you, people often believe what they say.
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Old 8th August 2017, 12:07 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
This seems like a good point for someone better informed on the issue to explain what this person got wrong. Instead, Google gives the impression they don't care if the person is right. As someone who cares about diversity, it makes we want to consider dropping their products.
No it gives the impression that Google wants people to do the job they are being paid to do.
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Old 8th August 2017, 12:08 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
No it gives the impression that Google wants people to do the job they are being paid to do.
Doesn't give that impression.
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