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Tags atheism , atheists , immorality , morality

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Old 8th August 2017, 10:59 AM   #81
Skeptic Ginger
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Originally Posted by StackOverflow View Post
I understand the countless priests who have been molesting children over several years (and then not being punished but merely "moved" to somewhere else) as highly immoral.

What do you think about the fact that religious people, even those who swore to serve "god", can be highly immoral?
Good point.
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Old 8th August 2017, 10:59 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
perhaps you intended to quote another post, because your post as written makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

As far as the evolutionary advantages of religious faith, there is quite a range of literature, scholarly and otherwise, including that cited in the paper we are discussing. Here is something to help you get your feet wet:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...ryId=129528196
Ironically, the article talks about an experiment with young children cheating at a game (connects pretty solidly with what I wrote that you replied to).

The article goes on to say "We are their descendants. And Johnson says their belief in the supernatural is still very much with us."

Do you think belief in the supernatural is the same as religious faith?

Do you think this tendency is somehow in our genetics?

Thanks.
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Old 8th August 2017, 11:03 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
First, I don't see you supporting your interpretation of the methodology with anything of substance from the paper.
That is because i am not interpreting their methodology, of course.

On the other hand, you claimed:

"The researchers asked people if the animal torturing serial killer is likely to be an atheist or a theist."

And were asked for support thereof, which remains lacking.
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Old 8th August 2017, 11:06 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Imhotep View Post
Ironically, the article talks about an experiment with young children cheating at a game (connects pretty solidly with what I wrote that you replied to).

The article goes on to say "We are their descendants. And Johnson says their belief in the supernatural is still very much with us."

Do you think belief in the supernatural is the same as religious faith?

Do you think this tendency is somehow in our genetics?

Thanks.
I would not use the term supernatural, but I understand what point he is trying to draw and am unperturbed by it.

what tendency?
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Old 8th August 2017, 11:13 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I would not use the term supernatural, but I understand what point he is trying to draw and am unperturbed by it.

what tendency?
Sorry I'll rephrase: Do you think the tendency towards belief in the supernatural, equated with having religious faith, is in our genetics?
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Old 8th August 2017, 11:16 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
who else sees the glaring errors and assumptions in the quoted section of the post above?
You. The truth may very well be out there but the lies are in your head.
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Old 8th August 2017, 11:25 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
You. The truth may very well be out there but the lies are in your head.
actually, I already explained that your belief that atheists are immune from the first two stages of moral development is absurd, as is the claim that theists react as they do only only to the threat of punishment.
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Old 8th August 2017, 11:27 AM   #88
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I apologize if I was "taking the bait". I enjoy discussing things with people with different belief systems as my own. I haven't been around long enough to know whether TBD is being disingenuous or not.
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Old 8th August 2017, 11:30 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Imhotep View Post
Sorry I'll rephrase: Do you think the tendency towards belief in the supernatural, equated with having religious faith, is in our genetics?
My understanding is that while the evidence of the evolutionary advantage of religious faith is established, how that is transmitted remains the subject of further inquiry. The former is directly relevant to our analysis of the issues here, the (albeit quite interesting) latter question is significantly less pertinent here.
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Old 8th August 2017, 11:39 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post

And this from the abstract is especially not supported by the study:Rather, it would seem to be purely the researchers' bias that is the conclusion they believe they supported.


Quote:
Entrenched moral suspicion of atheists suggests that religion’s powerful influence on moral judgements persists, even among non-believers in secular societies.


I wonder what the peer reviewers had to say about that claim? It's no surprise theists believe one needs a god belief to behave morally. But most atheists are going to know moral behavior stems from nature/nurture processes not fear of gods.
while I rarely think it worthwhile to address part of a substance free gish gallop such as the above linked post, this quite remarkable claim struck me. A bit of digging, of course, reveals that it is utterly false:

Quote:
To check robustness of intuitive moral distrust of atheists among atheists, we conducted a second analysis isolating all participants across sites who rated their belief in God at zero (N = 553) and explored overall atheist intuitive moral distrust of atheists (experimental condition treated as fixed) across sites (varying intercepts of country). Again, atheist participants showed higher conjunction error rates for atheist targets, 0.61 (95% HPDI 0.23, 0.95), than for religious targets, 0.50 (95% HPDI 0.12, 0.88) (posterior probability = 0.999). Thus, consistent with theoretical predictions, even atheists intuitively associate immorality more with atheists than with believers.
Oh well.
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Old 8th August 2017, 12:00 PM   #91
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Yes but again they are equating immorality with being a serial killer. I can't get past that one point, it's too strange.
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Old 8th August 2017, 12:05 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Imhotep View Post
Yes but again they are equating immorality with being a serial killer. I can't get past that one point, it's too strange.
well certainly you would agree that being a serial killer is immoral? Of course.

Further, there is nothing that suggests that it is intended to be the exclusive definition of immorality, nor that they trying to access whether conduct was immoral.

they used an extreme example to minimize noise in the data.
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Old 8th August 2017, 12:18 PM   #93
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The study doesn't resist analysis.

Quote:
Study S2
...Method.
We recruited 394 American participants from Amazon Mechanical Turk ... We
presented participants with the same moral violation used in the main analysis, and provided potential targets who disbelieve in God, evolution, horoscopes, global warming or vaccine safety (manipulated between subjects).
....
....

Summary.
Our main study suggests extreme moral distrust of people who do not believe
in gods. Study S2 suggests that this effect does not readily generalize to various other specific disbeliefs.
Why didn't they simply ask if a left-handed did it? That is measuring something sound for this kind of study.

"I tawt I taw a rilichius breadjudis" ... long research designed around that prejudice and worded around that prejudice. Conclusion: "I tit, I taw a rilichius breadjudis".

Quote:
We conducted identical experiments in all 13 sites. We targeted at least 100 participants per experimental condition (anti-atheist bias versus anti-religious bias). After filtering out inattentive participants (13%) and incomplete responses, there were a total of 3,256 participants for final analysis (69% female, age 16–70 years: mean = 25.07, s.d. = 7.84)
Wow! How representative! Mean global age 25.07 but no one younger than 16! 69% women? How high is male mortality rate in some countries? (That may be the reason some religions allow men to have four wives).

If they are so cheeky to publish the very proof of their candid incompetence, because you know, telling they used a Bayesian guarantees the GIGO principle isn't applicable here

__________________________________________________ ______

One of the most interesting things here is them polling about "Atheists" and "Theists". How did they ask? They polled in countries like India and China, with dozens of languages. In one country they could ask people of different languages using written language: what symbol did they choose for "Atheist" and "Theist"?

Are all languages involved neutral in the use of those terms? I mean, the word "opinion" in English includes meanings ranging from a judgement based on special knowledge and given by an expert to any unsubstantiated piss-poor belief disguised into a conclusion and held with confidence that TBD pours here just because he has an internet connection, a keyboard like and time to spare.

The same way, in the dozens of languages and dialects used across those 13 countries, are they sure the equivalent to "Atheist" has no other meaning like sinister (left-handed; related to the left) has?
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Last edited by aleCcowaN; 8th August 2017 at 12:32 PM.
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Old 8th August 2017, 12:40 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post

One of the most interesting things here is them polling about "Atheists" and "Theists". How did they ask? They polled in countries like India and China, with dozens of languages. In one country they could ask people of different languages using written language: what symbol did they choose for "Atheist" and "Theist"?

Are all languages involved neutral in the use of those terms? I mean, the word "opinion" in English includes meanings ranging from a judgement based on special knowledge and given by an expert to any unsubstantiated piss-poor belief disguised into a conclusion and held with confidence that TBD pours here just because he has an internet connection, a keyboard like and time to spare.

The same way, in the dozens of languages and dialects used across those 13 countries, are they sure the equivalent to "Atheist" has no other meaning like sinister (left-handed; related to the left) has?
The data including the translations is actually attached to the paper.

But what do I know, what with my actual reading the paper, and my "unsubstantiated piss-poor belief... internet connection, a keyboard like and time to spare" huh?

/curious how many things one reads when one posts a scholarly paper that implies criticism of atheism around the "international skeptics forum".....
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Old 8th August 2017, 01:00 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by sphenisc View Post
Not even that. It could be that they are more likely to believe that a teacher is an atheist than a person of religion.
S3 addresses my objection.
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Old 8th August 2017, 01:47 PM   #96
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Yeah why didn't they just ask "religious believer" or "atheist"? What was the purpose of introducing "teacher" into the scenario?
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Old 8th August 2017, 01:56 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
The data including the translations is actually attached to the paper.
Only Chinese, Finish and Dutch. In Chinese the same symbols used as "Atheist" remits to sceptical: 无神论者的 [wú shén lùn zhě de] "A person who is sceptical"

But in any language the botched questionnaire is evident

1.
有一个男生从小就开始虐待动物。最初的时候,他只是把苍蝇的翅膀扯下来

后来他就折磨左邻右舍的流浪猫和其他的动物。
这个男生长大成年后,他觉得虐待动物不够刺激,因此他开始伤害别人。他诱
拐了家乡的五个穷人然后把他们杀害了。这些人的尸体被肢解后,埋在他家的
地下室里。
以下选项哪种描述最有可能正确?
[
单选题
] [
必答题
]
a.
这个男人是教师。
b.
这个男人是个信奉无神论的教师。

which google translates as


1.
There is a boy from an early age began to abuse animals. At first, he just pulled off the flies' wings
,
Later he tortured the neighbors' stray cats and other animals.
After the male grew up, he felt that the cruelty of the animals was not enough, so he began to hurt others. He lures
The five poor people who turned their hometown and then killed them. The bodies of these people were dismembered and buried in his house
The basement.
Which of the following options is most likely to be correct?
[
Single topic
] [
Must answer
]
A.
This man is a teacher.
B.
This man is a teacher who speaks atheism.

Wow!

Description:

Evil man do evil things.

Options:

a) The man is a mechanic (everybody knows a mechanic who is not likely to be a mass murdered)
b) The man is a mechanic with some characteristic (new information added to generate a subset of the previous answer: there is where is has to fall an evil mechanic. If the options were "a Chinese man" and "a Chinese lonely man", what would you think the polled young women -I mean, representative people- would have answered?)

What is more likely
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
But what do I know, what with my actual reading the paper,...
Exactly. You should refrain to start threads -or even post- about things you don't understand, just because you want to believe what is told.
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Old 8th August 2017, 01:57 PM   #98
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Putting aside the opinions that the whole thing might be utter pants

I don't care, because it says my country is more normal than all you lot......the bestest normal ever.......The greatest normal.........A Fire and Fury of normal! [/trump]

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Old 8th August 2017, 02:01 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Thus one can easily see that we are hard wired by evolution to understand that atheism is immoral.


And that, my lord, is how we know the Earth to be banana-shaped.
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Old 8th August 2017, 02:02 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
Exactly. You should refrain to start threads -or even post- about things you don't understand, just because you want to believe what is told.
Uh huh.

Say, did you by any chance read the actual paper, because the authors of the paper describe in detail why they intentionally did what you are bitterly complaining about (and also bizarrely attributing to me).
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Old 8th August 2017, 02:08 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
dl:

And that, my lord, is how we know the Earth to be banana-shaped.
I was not aware that the laughing dog was still a thing around here.

say, notwithstanding the merit of your laughing dog argument, did you get a chance to, say, READ any of the studies listed in Footnotes 1 through 9?

Any of them? You know the ones that describe the role of religion in shaping human evolution and society?

Any of them?

I'm guessing: No?
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Old 8th August 2017, 02:08 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Here is the actual paper referenced in the link in the OP.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-017-0151

I look forward to your thoughts.
It indicates that prejudice against atheism is quite deeply rooted. Not really surprising after generations have been taught that God is what keeps people moral.

It does not, of course, indicate anything about the actual morality of atheists.

Hans
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Old 8th August 2017, 02:10 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
actually, the paper goes into some detail regarding the evolutionary advantage of religiosity as having a significant impact on the results of the study.
No, it doesn't.

Hans
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Old 8th August 2017, 02:15 PM   #104
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At this rate of progress, the discussion will get approximately nowhere in the next 37 pages.
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Old 8th August 2017, 02:16 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post


And that, my lord liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana-shaped.
They have their scriptures; I have mine.
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Old 8th August 2017, 02:16 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
It indicates that prejudice against atheism is quite deeply rooted. Not really surprising after generations have been taught that God is what keeps people moral.

It does not, of course, indicate anything about the actual morality of atheists.

Hans
Actually it concludes that based on the data that was generated, but as I have already explained the data supports other much more likely conclusions, including that humans are hard wired by their social evolution to distrust atheism.

The study also rejects your belief "Not really surprising after generations have been taught that God is what keeps people moral," to wit: "However, the cross-cultural prevalence and magnitude—as well as intracultural demographic stability—of such intuitions, as manifested in intuitive associations of immorality with atheists, remain unclear."
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Old 8th August 2017, 02:17 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
No, it doesn't.

Hans
I consider NINE footnotes to NINE studies quite detailed.
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Old 8th August 2017, 02:20 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog
Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
Exactly. You should refrain to start threads -or even post- about things you don't understand, just because you want to believe what is told.
Uh huh.

Say, did you by any chance read the actual paper, because the authors of the paper describe in detail why they intentionally did what you are bitterly complaining about (and also bizarrely attributing to me).
You evidently didn't read my posts in this thread. What I really did and the evidence of that is within them, and what you just wrote is just an attempt on your part to deviate attention elsewhere.

Could you swear by god that you had read the original paper before starting this thread?

More importantly: WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THE SAMPLING METHOD THEY USED IN ALL 13 COUNTRIES AS IT IS DECLARED IN THE PAPER?
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Old 8th August 2017, 02:35 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Recorded as negatives? Nonsense.

The fact of the matter is that people who see a flaw in the question are counted, despite your earlier claim to the contrary. If anything, the fact that the question can be seen as fallacious more likely leads to under-counting the results that would otherwise have led to more points for option B.
Wrong. There are negatives and positives in both sets; negatives say the serial killer is more likely to be a teacher, positives say the serial killer is more likely to be (both a teacher and religious) or (both a teacher and an atheist) according to group; I hope we both agree on that.

Everyone who gives an answer not subject to cognitive bias states that the serial killer is more likely to be a teacher, as this is in fact the only logically possible answer. Everyone who gives either of the other answers, according to group, is therefore exhibiting cognitive bias.

The study therefore shows that more people in a random sample are likely to exhibit a cognitive bias that demonstrates prejudice against atheists than against religious people.

I think that's quite clear to all the participants in this thread. I'd say all except one, but I don't actually believe that.

Dave
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Old 8th August 2017, 02:40 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Actually it concludes that based on the data that was generated, but as I have already explained the data supports other much more likely conclusions, including that humans are hard wired by their social evolution to distrust atheism.
But it's us, not you, who are trying to force an interpretation on to the results that the paper doesn't support.

Right.

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Old 8th August 2017, 03:04 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
But it's us, not you, who are trying to force an interpretation on to the results that the paper doesn't support.

Right.

Dave
where did I say "it's us (i.e. you) ... who are trying to force an interpretation on to the results that the paper doesn't support."

Truth be told, I have spent virtually all my time explaining basic facts to people who clearly don't understand the paper.

I have also made no secret whatsoever about my conclusion that the paper's interpretation of the data is erroneous.

So maybe start again?
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Old 8th August 2017, 03:06 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I consider NINE footnotes to NINE studies quite detailed.
It talks about cultural evolution.

Hans
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Old 8th August 2017, 03:10 PM   #113
The Big Dog
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
It talks about cultural evolution.

Hans
Thanks for acknowledging.
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Old 8th August 2017, 03:13 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Actually it concludes that based on the data that was generated, but as I have already explained the data supports other much more likely conclusions, including that humans are hard wired by their social evolution to distrust atheism.
Is that not what I say when I say: "Not really surprising after generations have been taught that God is what keeps people moral"?

Our social evolution has been telling us ... not that atheism is bad, but that religion is good.

Which, of course, in no way indicates that it is true.

And even if it were true that religion somehow made people better, it does in no way imply that gods exist.

Hans
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Old 8th August 2017, 03:25 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by StackOverflow View Post
I understand the countless priests who have been molesting children over several years (and then not being punished but merely "moved" to somewhere else) as highly immoral.

What do you think about the fact that religious people, even those who swore to serve "god", can be highly immoral?
Originally Posted by StackOverflow View Post
Ah, the allmighty, invisible skydaddy allowed the priest to molest children by not intervening?

Seems like skydaddy does not have any morals and is totally fine with the torture of children.
This leads to the easy conclusion that believing in and worshipping a god who is fine with child abuse is completely immoral.

What is your opinion on the god who does not stop child molesters?
As you're saying here, it wasn't just the actual molesters either, but the entire structure of the Roman Catholic Church which helped allow the leaders to COVER for the molesters and HIDE evidence of their crimes while trying desperately to "punish" the wrongdoer outside of secular powers.

And this went on for decades with multiple people in the Church hierarchy. Is every single one of them also a hidden atheist? None of them are true believers who feel that they did something wrong but thought that God's punishment and/or personal penitence was sufficient?
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Old 8th August 2017, 03:35 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
As you're saying here, it wasn't just the actual molesters either, but the entire structure of the Roman Catholic Church which helped allow the leaders to COVER for the molesters and HIDE evidence of their crimes while trying desperately to "punish" the wrongdoer outside of secular powers.

And this went on for decades with multiple people in the Church hierarchy. Is every single one of them also a hidden atheist? None of them are true believers who feel that they did something wrong but thought that God's punishment and/or personal penitence was sufficient?
well that is what the data shows with respect to the actual molesting priests, that they were believed more likely to be priests who had rejected God and had become atheists
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Old 8th August 2017, 04:53 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
Only Chinese, Finish and Dutch.
I looked at the Dutch translation of the questionnaire. I'm not knowledgeable about how to properly set up and conduct such interviews, but this is what struck me.

1) The headings between the groups of questions were untranslated ("Distractor items", "Suspicion check", etc.), but I suspect the interviewees didn't see those.

2) There was a grammatical error right there in the first sentence.
It first said "Lees" (read), an imperative singular, and then went on to say "beantwoordt" (answer) which is an imperative plural, the -t signifying the plural. I suspect that 95% of my countrymen would not spot that, being very sloppy with language, but personally I'd class that as illiteracy.


3) The description of the animal torturer / serial killer sounded formal and stilted to me in its choice of words. Something a 50-yo would have written 20 years ago. Not something a 32-yo post-doc writes or that appeals to 20-something students - the interviewees were all students AFAICS.

4) The second answer to the question seems odd in its choice of answers: "gelooft niet in god" - "does not believe in god" - versus "is een gelovige" - "is a believer". Why not "believes in god" in the second case as well? I note the English original has the same issue.

5) The "Demographics" questions are not consistent in their pronoun use. Dutch has a T-V distinction, and 8 out of 10 questions use the informal "je" while the other two use the formal "u".

6) Oddly, the question about the religion of the interviewee has been split into two. First a question "Do you consider yourself a member of a religious community? If yes, which?" and then a question like in the original with a premade list of choices.

7) The question about ethnic background has a confusing option "Afrikaans" - do they mean the continent or the Afrikaners, the descendants of white settlers in SA? I suspect the latter, all other ethnic backgrounds listed refer to countries. I'm also intrigued what this says about their intended interviewees, as the number of Afrikaner immigrants in the Netherlands is not significant.

8) The question about political belief lists all political parties then in parliament (good, IMHO), but curiously leaves out 50PLUS, a senior citizens party.

9) The question about education does not distinguish between having a college degree or a PhD. It also has a typo in one of the names of school types, and oddly lists in one of its choices two types of secondary education that have been abolished ca. 1970, but not any of the other school types that were then abolished.

OK, most of that can be filed under "sloppy", but really, didn't anyone proofread this?
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Old 8th August 2017, 05:43 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
I looked at the Dutch translation of the questionnaire. I'm not knowledgeable about how to properly set up and conduct such interviews, but this is what struck me.

...
Excellent work! It all seems casual and relaxed, like those pre-questionnaires that are made just to interview a bad sample made of few people (students in the building, for instance) just to check for mistakes, the grammatical ones and spelling being the least important to be checked. In one local study the sample was paid with "candies", also pointing to a jocular approach which is typical for a new group forming and the first steps in preparing a serious research.

How such work, not even half-baked, made its way to a public part of nature.com, it speaks badly about what they have become ... or was is published on April 1st?

As TBD will surely become increasingly unresponsive here in this thread, only pedalling reactively once and again to keep it going and have "the last word", I think I'm gonna abandon this thread and opening one in the serious Science... forum to compare one research in medicine that was rendered useless for just a methodological mistake with this buffoonery from the "social" field. I'll think about that overnight and link it from here if I decide to start such a thread.
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Old 8th August 2017, 05:47 PM   #119
The Big Dog
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
I looked at the Dutch translation of the questionnaire. I'm not knowledgeable about how to properly set up and conduct such interviews, but this is what struck me.

1) The headings between the groups of questions were untranslated ("Distractor items", "Suspicion check", etc.), but I suspect the interviewees didn't see those.

2) There was a grammatical error right there in the first sentence.
It first said "Lees" (read), an imperative singular, and then went on to say "beantwoordt" (answer) which is an imperative plural, the -t signifying the plural. I suspect that 95% of my countrymen would not spot that, being very sloppy with language, but personally I'd class that as illiteracy.


3) The description of the animal torturer / serial killer sounded formal and stilted to me in its choice of words. Something a 50-yo would have written 20 years ago. Not something a 32-yo post-doc writes or that appeals to 20-something students - the interviewees were all students AFAICS.

4) The second answer to the question seems odd in its choice of answers: "gelooft niet in god" - "does not believe in god" - versus "is een gelovige" - "is a believer". Why not "believes in god" in the second case as well? I note the English original has the same issue.

5) The "Demographics" questions are not consistent in their pronoun use. Dutch has a T-V distinction, and 8 out of 10 questions use the informal "je" while the other two use the formal "u".

6) Oddly, the question about the religion of the interviewee has been split into two. First a question "Do you consider yourself a member of a religious community? If yes, which?" and then a question like in the original with a premade list of choices.

7) The question about ethnic background has a confusing option "Afrikaans" - do they mean the continent or the Afrikaners, the descendants of white settlers in SA? I suspect the latter, all other ethnic backgrounds listed refer to countries. I'm also intrigued what this says about their intended interviewees, as the number of Afrikaner immigrants in the Netherlands is not significant.

8) The question about political belief lists all political parties then in parliament (good, IMHO), but curiously leaves out 50PLUS, a senior citizens party.

9) The question about education does not distinguish between having a college degree or a PhD. It also has a typo in one of the names of school types, and oddly lists in one of its choices two types of secondary education that have been abolished ca. 1970, but not any of the other school types that were then abolished.

OK, most of that can be filed under "sloppy", but really, didn't anyone proofread this?
The Contributors are all clearly listed with contact information. why don't you express your comments to them directly?
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Old 8th August 2017, 05:51 PM   #120
The Big Dog
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Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
As TBD will surely become increasingly unresponsive here in this thread, only pedalling reactively once and again to keep it going and have "the last word", I think I'm gonna abandon this thread and opening one in the serious Science... forum to compare one research in medicine that was rendered useless for just a methodological mistake with this buffoonery from the "social" field. I'll think about that overnight and link it from here if I decide to start such a thread.
Interesting thought. My suggestion that if you decide to start a thread in science that you make sure you bring next level analysis such as:

Quote:
"I tawt I taw a rilichius breadjudis" ... long research designed around that prejudice and worded around that prejudice. Conclusion: "I tit, I taw a rilichius breadjudis".
Solid
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