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Old 9th August 2017, 07:22 AM   #81
Kumar
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Originally Posted by steenkh View Post
I do not think that anybody believes that we become resistant to heart diseases or inflammation.
But we may be having such defence mechanism which can save us from these if not compromised. Stress hormones & Cortisol's normal bio availability is one.
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Old 9th August 2017, 07:25 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
We have to wait and watch for long to fully justify it. Living longer and increasing the numbers may need not to be living healthy.
Strange that you only say this about things you don't agree with...
Your own opinions are always 'absolute and final' as I believe you like to say, but facts that contradict your opinions are always dismissed because they're not conclusive enough (for reasons that are never given).

You do realize that this comes across as very dishonest, don't you?
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Old 9th August 2017, 07:33 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
Because the response makes you run away or punch something. It doesn't say anything about how the immune system works. Also, once a microbe or toxin is inside your body, having your white blood cells or liver or kidneys 'flee' from them isn't going to work out in your favor.
{quote]In toxicology, hormesis is a dose response phenomenon characterized by a low dose stimulation, high dose inhibition,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hormesis

The fight-or-flight response (also called hyperarousal, or the acute stress response) is a physiological reaction that occurs in response to a perceived harmful event, attack, or threat to survival.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fight-or-flight_response
Immune response[edit]
Cortisol prevents the release of substances in the body that cause inflammation.
Cortisol can weaken the activity of the immune system.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cortisol[/quote]

We can get some clues from above links.
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Old 9th August 2017, 07:39 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
Strange that you only say this about things you don't agree with...
Your own opinions are always 'absolute and final' as I believe you like to say, but facts that contradict your opinions are always dismissed because they're not conclusive enough (for reasons that are never given).

You do realize that this comes across as very dishonest, don't you?
No my opinions are not absolute and final but I do not take those opinions given by others as A&F whose basis is not yet A&F.
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Old 9th August 2017, 07:44 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
{quote]In toxicology, hormesis is a dose response phenomenon characterized by a low dose stimulation, high dose inhibition,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hormesis

The fight-or-flight response (also called hyperarousal, or the acute stress response) is a physiological reaction that occurs in response to a perceived harmful event, attack, or threat to survival.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fight-or-flight_response
Immune response[edit]
Cortisol prevents the release of substances in the body that cause inflammation.
Cortisol can weaken the activity of the immune system.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cortisol

We can get some clues from above links.
How about you spell it out for us?
Yes, those links go to articles about fight-or-flight and hormesis, but nothing in those articles or your post provides a link between the two phenomena.

You claim to have clues, you show us the clues. That's a lot better than sending us on a wild goose chase and claiming we haven't found the answer yet every time we ask you if this is what you mean.
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Old 9th August 2017, 07:46 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
We have to wait and watch for long to fully justify it. Living longer and increasing the numbers may need not to be living healthy.

No, the stats you were provided with in your last thread on this subject showed that not only were people living longer, they were also living longer with good quality of life.
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Old 9th August 2017, 07:48 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
You claim to have clues...

I have yet to see any evidence to support this claim.
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Old 9th August 2017, 07:56 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
I have yet to see any evidence to support this claim.
Mine or his? If you're talking about my claim about his claim, we'll just have to wait for more data. Nothing is A&F, unhealthful things may yet arise.
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Old 9th August 2017, 07:59 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
We have to wait and watch for long to fully justify it. Living longer and increasing the numbers may need not to be living healthy.
It would seem to be a bloody good start.

And that's a big A&F from me.
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Last edited by fagin; 9th August 2017 at 08:01 AM.
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Old 9th August 2017, 10:40 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
We have to wait and watch for long to fully justify it. Living longer and increasing the numbers may need not to be living healthy.
From your mouth to god's ears!!! Or something vaguely like it!!!
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Old 9th August 2017, 10:41 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
From your mouth to god's ears!!! Or something vaguely like it!!!
And yours was pretty vague!!!!!
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Old 9th August 2017, 04:26 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Yes but I want to better understand what these health hazards can do to us?
A heath hazard is hazardous to health ! A continuous heath hazard is continuously hazardous to our health. For example smog will always cause breathing difficulties.

An imaginary "Hormesis principle" is irrelevant. There is the equally irrelevant Hormesis because you want to talk about heath hazards and a fantasy of people in cities not being able to have normal test results.
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Old 9th August 2017, 04:32 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
We can get some clues from above links.
Sorry but the only clues point to an inability to understand what you cite.
Hormesis is not about the OP fantasy about urban populations.
Fight-or-flight response is not about the OP fantasy about urban populations.
Cortisol is not about the OP fantasy about urban populations.
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Old 9th August 2017, 05:11 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
Sorry but the only clues point to an inability to understand what you cite.
Hormesis is not about the OP fantasy about urban populations.
Fight-or-flight response is not about the OP fantasy about urban populations.
Cortisol is not about the OP fantasy about urban populations.
Wasting your time. Eventually, this thread will inevitably be steered around to homeopathy and how it cures diabetes. The notion is utter bollocks, but that is the end game.
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Old 9th August 2017, 05:45 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Wasting your time. Eventually, this thread will inevitably be steered around to homeopathy and how it cures diabetes. The notion is utter bollocks, but that is the end game.
I suspect that is correct since I have been in a couple of other Kumar threads. A clue is the irrelevant introduction of hormesis (that some agents can be toxic at high doses, non-toxic at small doses and toxic at lower doses).
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Old 9th August 2017, 06:36 PM   #96
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Yes, this is thread has ended up in the usual Kumaresque place, trying to shoehorn preconception into a scientific framework. Homeopathy justification in 3,2,1.....
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Old 9th August 2017, 06:40 PM   #97
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Up here in the First World, cities are healthy places.

Too bad about Pakistan.

Oh my goodnesh yesh, Kumar.
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Old 9th August 2017, 08:40 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
How about you spell it out for us?
Yes, those links go to articles about fight-or-flight and hormesis, but nothing in those articles or your post provides a link between the two phenomena.

You claim to have clues, you show us the clues. That's a lot better than sending us on a wild goose chase and claiming we haven't found the answer yet every time we ask you if this is what you mean.
I am thinking on line of hormesis type affect i.e. Low dose stimulation and high dose inhibition of physiological activities. One more things; normal dose should mean normal phy. activities.

Now, suppose due to high dose or say due to constant and chronic higher unhealthful exposures our defence mechanism or stress/fight or flight mechanism get compromised(inhibited phy. activities) how we will be saved from sudden and severe exposures? May it be Cardiac arrest or coming a lion in front or otherwise. Probably these mechenisms save us but if compromised/inhibited may not save us.

You must had read one short story: One person was daily shouting that lion came lion came as a joke. When people came to save him, no lion was there. After few such events, one day lion really came and then he shouted again. But all felt he is just joking ot telling lie and so no one came to same him. Then lion killed him. Same, you can apply here. Good luck.
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Old 9th August 2017, 08:42 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
No, the stats you were provided with in your last thread on this subject showed that not only were people living longer, they were also living longer with good quality of life.
Let us wait and watch till ultimate(A&F).
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Old 9th August 2017, 08:47 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
I am thinking on line of hormesis type affect ...
What you are thinking about hormesis is still irrelevant to the OP, Kumar. Derailing into "physiological activities" is also irrelevant to the OP question.

Last edited by Reality Check; 9th August 2017 at 08:49 PM.
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Old 9th August 2017, 10:34 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Let us wait and watch till ultimate(A&F).

Ultimately, we are all dead.
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Old 9th August 2017, 11:12 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Ultimately, we are all dead.
Next generations and next episodes will come. It is not necessary that A&F understanding of anything can't be achieved without A&F end.

Anyway, I just feel, I try to gift many logical understandings supported by scattered and non-yet coordinated or not yet A&F scientific understandings but looks you have no intention or dedication to get these. Like about Spont. Remission, Low dose stimulation etc.

Moreover my posts are primarily relevents to OPs but can be deviated on provocations or by TTTTs.....not my fault.
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Old 9th August 2017, 11:57 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
I am thinking on line of hormesis type affect i.e. Low dose stimulation and high dose inhibition of physiological activities. One more things; normal dose should mean normal phy. activities.

Now, suppose due to high dose or say due to constant and chronic higher unhealthful exposures our defence mechanism or stress/fight or flight mechanism get compromised(inhibited phy. activities) how we will be saved from sudden and severe exposures? May it be Cardiac arrest or coming a lion in front or otherwise. Probably these mechenisms save us but if compromised/inhibited may not save us.
You are conflating a lot of unconnected things. I'd explain it to you again, but it'd be useless.
So just tell us what the 'low stimulating dose' of being mauled to death by a lion is. How do you get it to stop after it heals you with its claws and teeth, and before the 'inhibiting high dose' of being someone's meal kicks in?

Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
You must had read one short story: One person was daily shouting that lion came lion came as a joke. When people came to save him, no lion was there. After few such events, one day lion really came and then he shouted again. But all felt he is just joking ot telling lie and so no one came to same him. Then lion killed him. Same, you can apply here. Good luck.
Nice story. Reminds me of the story of the man who shouted "this thread is not going to be about homeopathy at all" time and time again.
Everyone is still waiting for the metaphorical lion, because until now, the man in the story lied every time.
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Old 10th August 2017, 01:44 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Kid Eager View Post
Yes, this is thread has ended up in the usual Kumaresque place, trying to shoehorn preconception into a scientific framework. Homeopathy justification in 3,2,1.....
Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
I am thinking on line of hormesis type affect i.e. Low dose stimulation and high dose inhibition of physiological activities. One more things; normal dose should mean normal phy. activities.

Now, suppose due to high dose or say due to constant and chronic higher unhealthful exposures our defence mechanism or stress/fight or flight mechanism get compromised(inhibited phy. activities) how we will be saved from sudden and severe exposures? May it be Cardiac arrest or coming a lion in front or otherwise. Probably these mechenisms save us but if compromised/inhibited may not save us.

You must had read one short story: One person was daily shouting that lion came lion came as a joke. When people came to save him, no lion was there. After few such events, one day lion really came and then he shouted again. But all felt he is just joking ot telling lie and so no one came to same him. Then lion killed him. Same, you can apply here. Good luck.
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Old 10th August 2017, 02:49 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
You are conflating a lot of unconnected things. I'd explain it to you again, but it'd be useless.
So just tell us what the 'low stimulating dose' of being mauled to death by a lion is. How do you get it to stop after it heals you with its claws and teeth, and before the 'inhibiting high dose' of being someone's meal kicks in?


Nice story. Reminds me of the story of the man who shouted "this thread is not going to be about homeopathy at all" time and time again.
Everyone is still waiting for the metaphorical lion, because until now, the man in the story lied every time.
Try to understand. Simple, If your defence system is properly stimulated or working, you can take right decision to save you and if it is inhibited you may be able to take right decision to save you and so can get killed.
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Old 10th August 2017, 03:13 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Try to understand. Simple, If your defence system is properly stimulated or working, you can take right decision to save you and if it is inhibited you may be able to take right decision to save you and so can get killed.
Yes, if something works properly, it works properly. And if it doesn't work properly, it doesn't. That's circular.

What you need to show is that these mechanisms you propose make your immune system work better or worse.
But you have nothing. You're just throwing random words around and you're already trying to redefine what hormesis means. Next step is equating hormesis with a generalized concept of 'harmful things' being beneficial in low doses, and then you're going to 'wonder' if this means that there might be something to homeopathy after all.
People will tell you that there are no active ingredients in homeopathic 'medicine' at all, so your point is moot, and then you'll disappear for a few months before trying again.

You do this in all of your threads, I don't know who you think you're fooling.
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Old 10th August 2017, 06:49 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
Yes, if something works properly, it works properly. And if it doesn't work properly, it doesn't. That's circular.

What you need to show is that these mechanisms you propose make your immune system work better or worse.
But you have nothing. You're just throwing random words around and you're already trying to redefine what hormesis means. Next step is equating hormesis with a generalized concept of 'harmful things' being beneficial in low doses, and then you're going to 'wonder' if this means that there might be something to homeopathy after all.
People will tell you that there are no active ingredients in homeopathic 'medicine' at all, so your point is moot, and then you'll disappear for a few months before trying again.

You do this in all of your threads, I don't know who you think you're fooling.
[{quote]Immunodeficiency (or immune deficiency) is a state in which the immune system's ability to fight infectious disease and cancer is compromised or entirely absent. Most cases of immunodeficiency are acquired ("secondary") due to extrinsic factors that affect the patient's immune system. Examples of these extrinsic factors include HIV infection, extremes of age, and environmental factors, such as nutrition.[1] In the clinical setting, the immunosuppression by some drugs, such as steroids, can be either an adverse effect or the intended purpose of the treatment.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immunodeficiency [/quote]

Yes detecting physical quantity in higher potencies homeopathic remedies is yet unclear and for this reason I am also unclear. But we don't know, what new scientific understanding may tell finally about it in future. Otherwise Hormesis Biphasic theory is clear in studies.
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Old 10th August 2017, 07:04 AM   #108
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We do know about homeopathy, it's nonsense. All of it. No question about it.

And your claims about 'hormesis biphasic' don't appear to have any relation to your first paragraph about immunodeficiency.
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Old 10th August 2017, 07:23 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Waffle waffle waffle...
Yes detecting physical quantity in higher potencies homeopathic remedies is yet unclear
...waffle waffle waffle.
Surely if you can detect something, it's not water oops sorry, a homeopathic remedy?
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Old 10th August 2017, 07:39 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Try to understand. Simple, If your defence system is properly stimulated or working, you can take right decision to save you and if it is inhibited you may be able to take right decision to save you and so can get killed.
So, because I have a cat, I'm safe from being attacked by a lion. Got it.

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Old 10th August 2017, 08:11 AM   #111
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http://money.cnn.com/2013/07/09/news...ion/index.html
Quote:
Severe pollution has slashed an average of five and half years from life expectancy in northern China, as toxic air has led to higher rates of stroke, heart disease and cancer.
But the whole world is not northern china.
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Old 10th August 2017, 08:39 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Next generations and next episodes will come. It is not necessary that A&F understanding of anything can't be achieved without A&F end.

Anyway, I just feel, I try to gift many logical understandings supported by scattered and non-yet coordinated or not yet A&F scientific understandings but looks you have no intention or dedication to get these. Like about Spont. Remission, Low dose stimulation etc.

Moreover my posts are primarily relevents to OPs but can be deviated on provocations or by TTTTs.....not my fault.

As I and others have told you numerous times before, when you invoke "A&F" you have abandoned science. "A&F scientific" is a contradiction in terms. Why do you start your threads in this subforum if you're not going to discuss science? And then you try to blame your critics for turning the subject to homeopathy. Sad.
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Last edited by ferd burfle; 10th August 2017 at 08:48 AM. Reason: Add last sentence
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Old 10th August 2017, 04:23 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Simple, If your defence system is properly stimulated or working, you can take right decision to save you and if it is inhibited you may be able to take right decision to save you and so can get killed.
I know that English is your second language, Kumar, but that sounds like a fantasy that people consciously know what this "defense system" is doing !

The immune system (assuming that is what "defence system" means) does not have obvious indicators that it is working properly or not. There is no equivalent of a heartbeat telling you that your heart is beating!
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Old 10th August 2017, 04:24 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
[{quote]Immunodeficiency (or immune deficiency) ....
Now we are back to you derailing your own thread, Kumar , and implying that you lied before when you wrote I am not discussing homeopathy here !

Last edited by Reality Check; 10th August 2017 at 04:28 PM.
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Old 10th August 2017, 08:07 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post

And your claims about 'hormesis biphasic' don't appear to have any relation to your first paragraph about immunodeficiency.
Simple logic for example will be: if one is made unconscious or slept by durgs, he may not feel many symptoms, pain, stress, overacting even death etc. but when he got awakened he will. Former will mask many symptoms and severe conditions so he will not try to save himself from those but if he is well awakened he will.

I feel, I can't explain better than this. If you can grasp the logic, ok otherwise keep it going so.
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Old 10th August 2017, 08:36 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Simple logic for example will be:....
An irrelevant and non-logical example, Kumar.
Waking up a dead person !
Abysmal ignorance about 'hormesis biphasic'.

Last edited by Reality Check; 10th August 2017 at 08:39 PM.
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Old 11th August 2017, 01:46 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
So, because I have a cat, I'm safe from being attacked by a lion. Got it.

Dave
I have two cats and have never been attacked by a lion, so there's one data point in favour of that hypothesis
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Old 11th August 2017, 03:47 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
I know that English is your second language, Kumar
I am not convinced. There have been many offers to help him translate his thoughts from his "native tongue" in the past, but he not only refuses to try it, he refuses to even say what his native tongue is. If he was sincere in his attempts to communicate his ideas, he'd jump at the offers of assistance.
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Old 11th August 2017, 03:50 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I have two cats and have never been attacked by a lion, so there's one data point in favour of that hypothesis
I have a vanishingly small number of cats, so, homeopathically speaking, my protection against lions is that more robust than yours
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Old 11th August 2017, 03:52 AM   #120
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I saw a cat once, but retained the memory of the cat after banging my head against a leather-bound book.
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