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Old 12th August 2017, 01:33 PM   #81
Wonder234
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
Where the heck did you go to school? All extant mammals have a male and a female progenitor. The individual with the smaller gamete is the male. Andre the giant didn't grow to his adult size in his mothers belly.

This is preposterous.
That's not the point, the point is that life is in some sense as weird as the idea of reincarnation.

I wasn't saying that Andre the Giant grew to his adult size in his mothers belly.

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Old 12th August 2017, 01:38 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by jond View Post
Welcome, Wonder234. The difference between all the things you are questioning and souls is that we have evidence for all the other things. If you were so inclined you could look through all the studies and do all the experiments yourself. You don't need to just take someone's word for it, you can do the experiments yourself. Souls? Not so much. There is no evidence, there is no reason to think they exist. Also, there is rather considerable evidence that suggests that they cannot exist (or at least interact with our bodies in the way that they must if they are to have any significance).
If you are defining evidence as something that conclusively demonstrates what it supports, then I'd agree that there is no evidence. But if you are defining evidence as something that lends credence to something, then I disagree.
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Old 12th August 2017, 01:44 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
If you are defining evidence as something that conclusively demonstrates what it supports, then I'd agree that there is no evidence. But if you are defining evidence as something that lends credence to something, then I disagree.
What evidence would lend credence to the notion of souls?
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Old 12th August 2017, 01:56 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
Has it been disproven?
The rule of thumb is that no paranormal claim can be disproven, as such. OTOH, there is ample testable, repeatable and verifiable evidence that any particular paranormal claim is most likely wrong and/or unnecessary.

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Old 12th August 2017, 03:02 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
The part about choosing your incarnation and the lessons you will learn doesn't necessarily follow from this as reincarnation can just be automatic, perhaps it can, but it is not that important to this idea.

I hope in my next incarnation I come back as someone so deficient in logical thought that I can make sense of this post.
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Old 12th August 2017, 03:09 PM   #86
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The ontological landscape of unproven things is an endless toy store.
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Old 12th August 2017, 03:49 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
If you are defining evidence as something that conclusively demonstrates what it supports, then I'd agree that there is no evidence. But if you are defining evidence as something that lends credence to something, then I disagree.

Care to share your evidence for the existence of souls?
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Old 12th August 2017, 04:01 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Hokulele View Post
Care to share your evidence for the existence of souls?
All the cool kids have got one...

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I AGREE
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Old 12th August 2017, 04:16 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
Thanks. I'll give it a read.

Somehow I think that's a disingenuous answer. Given how you have replied to people since that post, I don't believe you have the slightest intention of ever trying to learn the answers to the questions you are asking … instead you are just going blithely on dreaming up fanciful mystical-type explanations off the top off your head ...

… though as I've just explained to you – the things that you are asking about, have already been explained long ago by science. Get some science books and learn the answers.
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Old 12th August 2017, 05:09 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
How about love. Is there a test for that?
This is so sad. I can't imagine what it must be like to go through life never knowing if anyone loves you.
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Old 12th August 2017, 05:27 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Hokulele View Post
Care to share your evidence for the existence of souls?
There was a parapsychologist named Dr. Charles Tart who did an experiment where he had a woman have an out of body experience and read a series of 5 digits that she could not see physically. The woman accurately reported the numbers. The experiment was flawed; they say she could've seen the numbers from a small reflection on a clock, but I do not think that's where she saw it, as the reflection was small and hardly visible.
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Old 12th August 2017, 05:40 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
The basis for this idea, for me, comes from claims of children who remember past lives. If it can be seen as more likely that these claims are really true, then this idea can be seen as more likely. I admit, it's not the strongest reasoning but it goes like this;

1. Let's, for now, suppose children or people who report memories of past lives are actually telling the truth (This claim would have to be argued for later).
Newp. Sorry, this is the very first thing you must have evidential support for and must be the first thing addressed. The rest, as it rests solidly upon this, is just fantasy piled upon fantasy until the first hurdle is overcome.


Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
Has it been disproven?
In a way, but the actual point is that it has not yet been proven. It's called 'the burden of proof' as well as the concept of the null hypothesis.


Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
That's not the point, the point is that life is in some sense as weird as the idea of reincarnation.
Yes, in some sense. The reality, however, is actually based on solid evidence and fact. In my mind, it makes it therefore more wondrous still than just mere fantasy, as anyone can imagine anything at all, yet the reality of the vastness of the universe, for example is truly mindboggling.

As a favorite movie of mine, The Ninth Configuration, has an excellent quote from Col. Vincent Kane: "In order for life to have appeared spontaneously on earth, there first had to be hundreds of millions of protein molecules of the ninth configuration. But given the size of the planet Earth, do you know how long it would have taken for just one of these protein molecules to appear entirely by chance? Roughly ten to the two hundred and forty-third power billions of years. And I find that far, far more fantastic than simply believing in God."
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Old 12th August 2017, 05:42 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
There was a parapsychologist named Dr. Charles Tart who did an experiment where he had a woman have an out of body experience and read a series of 5 digits that she could not see physically. The woman accurately reported the numbers. The experiment was flawed; they say she could've seen the numbers from a small reflection on a clock, but I do not think that's where she saw it, as the reflection was small and hardly visible.
That's it? One anecdotal story regarding a supposed OOBE (that even you apparently are suspicious of) means to you that souls exist?
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Old 12th August 2017, 05:44 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by RoboTimbo View Post
You believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster which created the universe out of itself and was destroyed in making it?
Any answer to this, Wonder234?
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Old 12th August 2017, 06:06 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
That's it? One anecdotal story regarding a supposed OOBE (that even you apparently are suspicious of) means to you that souls exist?
Well, there are many other cases where someone sees something out of body and verifies it later when they come back.

There are also what is called Peak in Darien experiences where someone sees the spirit of someone else who was believed to be alive at the time of the experience, but when they come back they find out that they were dead.

And there are the cases of children who remember past lives.
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Old 12th August 2017, 06:09 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by RoboTimbo View Post
Any answer to this, Wonder234?
I'm not an atheist either. I lean toward the supernatural, but do not identify with any religion.
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Old 12th August 2017, 06:19 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
I'm not an atheist either. I lean toward the supernatural, but do not identify with any religion.
I didn't say you were an atheist. I was trying to find out which gods you believe in. You've said you believe in a creator god. So you're ok with believing in the Flying Spaghetti Monster which created the universe out of itself and was destroyed in that creation? That satisfies your stated beliefs.
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Old 12th August 2017, 06:20 PM   #98
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Can nature of the universe even be supernatural ? Huh .. too deep ..
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Old 12th August 2017, 06:44 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by RoboTimbo View Post
I didn't say you were an atheist. I was trying to find out which gods you believe in. You've said you believe in a creator god. So you're ok with believing in the Flying Spaghetti Monster which created the universe out of itself and was destroyed in that creation? That satisfies your stated beliefs.
The God I believe in is basically the God or the parts of God that follow from various deductions and fits certain likelihoods.

I know about the Flying Spaghetti Monster, but am confused why you brought him up and follow it with "which created the universe out of itself and was destroyed in that creation".

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Old 12th August 2017, 06:58 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
Can nature of the universe even be supernatural ? Huh .. too deep ..
To show that it is possible, besides showing the existence of supernatural things, would require a full knowledge of the laws of the universe.
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Old 12th August 2017, 07:11 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
The God I believe in is basically the God or the parts of God that follow from various deductions and fits certain likelihoods.

I know about the Flying Spaghetti Monster, but am confused why you brought him up and follow it with "which created the universe out of itself and was destroyed in that creation".
So, FSM then.

It's always good to meet a fellow Pastafarian.

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Old 12th August 2017, 08:00 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
The God I believe in is basically the God or the parts of God that follow from various deductions and fits certain likelihoods.
You do have a religion then even though the above makes no sense. Why not a pantheon of gods?

Quote:
I know about the Flying Spaghetti Monster, but am confused why you brought him up and follow it with "which created the universe out of itself and was destroyed in that creation".
I can give a god I invent any attributes I like, just like theists. Why would you not believe in that Flying Spaghetti Monster? It meets your criteria. And my Flying Spaghetti Monster is genderless as that would be a nonsensical concept to a unique creature which no longer exists.

Why would you not say your god is my Flying Spaghetti Monster?
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Old 12th August 2017, 08:01 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
That's not the point, the point is that life is in some sense as weird as the idea of reincarnation.

Please provide some supporting evidence of that "point", or you're just another kook/crackpot/pathologically credulous woo-slinger.

Have you ever been abducted on a UFO?
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Old 12th August 2017, 08:19 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
There was a parapsychologist named Dr. Charles Tart who did an experiment where he had a woman have an out of body experience and read a series of 5 digits that she could not see physically. The woman accurately reported the numbers. The experiment was flawed; they say she could've seen the numbers from a small reflection on a clock, but I do not think that's where she saw it, as the reflection was small and hardly visible.

Isn't it amazing what we can prove when we abandon the scientific method?
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Old 12th August 2017, 08:28 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
There was a parapsychologist named Dr. Charles Tart who did an experiment where he had a woman have an out of body experience and read a series of 5 digits that she could not see physically. The woman accurately reported the numbers. The experiment was flawed; they say she could've seen the numbers from a small reflection on a clock, but I do not think that's where she saw it, as the reflection was small and hardly visible.
You are free to think that. Nothing about your thought makes it correct.
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Old 12th August 2017, 08:31 PM   #106
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There is Life, but there is no purpose of life. Life developed from chemistry and here we are (and other stuff too)!!! No god, no ancient aliens, none of that silliness!!!!!!!
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Old 12th August 2017, 09:03 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
Well, there are many other cases where someone sees something out of body and verifies it later when they come back.

There are also what is called Peak in Darien experiences where someone sees the spirit of someone else who was believed to be alive at the time of the experience, but when they come back they find out that they were dead.

And there are the cases of children who remember past lives.

The problem is, these are just stories. While they may sound convincing if that is what you want to believe, there is no verification they actually took place as described, nor do any of them seem to be repeatable. Although the universe is filled with bizarre and fascinating things, the mimic octopus being my current favorite, all of those I can see and/or test for myself, if I am so inclined. So far, that has not been possible for souls.
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Old 13th August 2017, 12:14 AM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
..., just an entity that created the universe.
Interesting. What can you tell us about it? I would like to know its origin, location, size, and most of all, its composition.
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Old 13th August 2017, 12:59 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
Well, there are many other cases where someone sees something out of body and verifies it later when they come back.

There are also what is called Peak in Darien experiences where someone sees the spirit of someone else who was believed to be alive at the time of the experience, but when they come back they find out that they were dead.

And there are the cases of children who remember past lives.

Actually there are no such cases of anyone doing any of those things.

What you mean is that for hundreds of years, and probably many thousands of years, people have been making all sorts of claims about so-called Out of Body experiences (OBE) or Near Death Experiences (NDE), or apparently children who claim to remember a past life (adults make claims like that as well).

There are tens of thousands of claims like that every year, and all sorts of other claims of the magical and mysterious. But not a single one of them has ever been shown to be true by any genuine evidence. On the contrary, whenever such claims are tested, it has always turned out that the claims were false.

There is zero evidence that anyone ever lived a past life, or that any "consciousness" exists outside of the living brain.

What you have been saying all through this thread amounts to “look, I've got a bunch of crazy stories from all sorts of frauds, charlatans, quacks, nut cases, and impressionable people, and I think we should spend our time investigating all this, even though it's all been investigated many thousands of times before and found to be complete nonsense”.

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Old 13th August 2017, 02:22 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
I just wanted to see how a skeptic would react to such an idea.
Ok, here's my reaction: it's nonsense.

Anybody can come up with an idea that has nothing to do with reality.
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Old 13th August 2017, 03:11 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
I'm not an atheist either. I lean toward the supernatural, but do not identify with any religion.

Well there is your first problem (an enormous problem) - you believe in the so-called "supernatural".

But what we have learned from the last 150 years of rapidly advancing science, is that there is no such thing as the "supernatural". The whole point about the "supernatural" is that does not exist. It's just a word for things that are imaginary.
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Old 13th August 2017, 03:59 AM   #112
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Ehh... looks like I came a couple pages in, so I'm going to arbitrarily respond to a few as I feel like it.

Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
I like to subject my views to skepticism, so I'm still working out the kinks of this.

In the beginning there was infinite potential. This infinite potential was God. God became aware of itself but could not experience itself because it was infinite and things can only exist in a finite form (after all, everything around you is finite), so God actualized it’s potential and became finite in the form of the universe, meaning everything and everyone is God (still working out the contradiction of how God can be aware of itself yet only experience itself when finite). So, God created the universe to experience itself, but it did not just want to experience itself as a tree or a dog or a human, it wanted to experience it’s essence, so the souls that inhabit various life-forms, through the process of reincarnation starting from the lowest forms of life and going toward the highest gradually evolves until it becomes God-like, perfect. Once perfect, this is God experiencing itself, and after a soul reaches perfection and thus no longer has to reincarnate, it merges with God, which would be the greatest bliss possible. And after all souls merge back with God, the process starts over again but this time with the lessons learned from the previous universe incorporated into the new universe. So the purpose of man, or the soul of man, is to become perfect, the purpose of man in a particular life is to grow, which you do through the experiences of life and your use of free will. You supposedly choose your parents and family to meet your particular growth needs and also program certain life experiences into your incarnation.
To focus on the part of this that would get to the heart of the thread's title... The first big question that needs answered is, "What counts as perfect and why should we accept that claimed version of perfect?"


Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
Atheism is not a thing but a lack of a thing, (i.e. Belief in gods), so how does one lighten up on this. - What if I said to see some of the merits of theism?
What counts as lightening up? Becoming a theist? Furthermore, to what end? Just your personal satisfaction by the look of it? Many atheists already see there to be some merits to be found in theism, though, too. It's just that that's a poor argument when one values rationality and reality more than comfort.

Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
Yes, but do any of us know for certain? How can we say such things when we experience so little of the universe? (How can I say what I'm saying?) Isn't life miraculous and complex enough a thing as to be in doubt about such claims?
This reminds me of the "Were you there?" that a number of Young Earth Creationists teach their kids to ask as part of their efforts to deny the overwhelming evidence about broad swathes of history that directly conflict with their beliefs. As it is, we can only honestly work with the information that we actually have, filtered through as fair and unbiased a lens as we can figure out how to use.


Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
I see what you are talking about now when you say that I'm making the universe too big to be worth exploring.

Let's define perfection as the state of being flawless. But in the context of my idea, this would be a flawlessness of character. Why character? Because that is where the essence of this first entity that became finite is truly, because this entity is in some sense a person, the qualities that make up its essence are character traits or can be seen as character traits.

As to why perfection is desirable, I would have to say that I myself don't really desire to be perfect that much, and I think there are plenty of other people that feel the same way, but according to this idea, this is what God wants, to experience itself as God. The idea doesn't really give a reason why God would want to experience itself (and I myself would have to work that out too). That does mar the theory somewhat but I think it can go on without it. I may try to fill in that gap.
What actually counts as a flawless character in the first place? And... why one either should or would accept a particular purpose for life tends to be rather important, if one thinks that acceptance of their claims is important in any way. If you completely don't care about reality, though, that is another story.

Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
There's no reason to believe something that cannot be falsifiably tested.
Reality, as we think we experience it, is real?

Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
What about logic?
What parts? There's lots of good and bad logic out there, after all, that can be falsifiably tested, and logic is far from some monolithic thing that can all be chunked together when doing such an evaluation.

Originally Posted by Hokulele View Post
Perfection is stagnant. Imperfection leads to progress!
If perfection is achieved, why would one care about progress? Perhaps you're a diehard fan of Loading Simulators?

Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
The basis for this idea, for me, comes from claims of children who remember past lives. If it can be seen as more likely that these claims are really true, then this idea can be seen as more likely. I admit, it's not the strongest reasoning but it goes like this;
In that post, you make a lot of poorly backed up assumptions, though. It seems more like you're just seizing upon one potential option out of a number in most of the steps with very little actual reasoning involved for why that option and not the others. I will certainly agree that it's not the strongest reasoning, given that, for starters.

Originally Posted by RoboTimbo View Post
When did that cease to meet the definition of religion?
Which definition of religion? It certainly counts as theism, but not necessarily as religion. To borrow from wikipedia, for example,

Quote:
Religion is any cultural system of designated behaviors and practices, world views, texts, sanctified places, ethics, or organizations, that relate humanity to the supernatural or transcendental. Religions relate humanity to what anthropologist Clifford Geertz has referred to as a cosmic "order of existence".[1] However, there is no scholarly consensus over what precisely constitutes a religion.
Religion deals with the practice, in short, and not about theism... which works just fine for much of normal usage, considering that there are a number of atheistic religions. Similarly to how being an atheist wouldn't automatically qualify one as religious, being a theist wouldn't automatically qualify one as religious.

Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
Surprisingly, if you read about past lives some researchers and past life regressionists find that hardship can also be a means for growth. There are cases where that hardship is not helpful, but that is not always what a soul incarnates for, as there are so many variables that not all of them can be controlled.
That's not particularly trustworthy in the first place, though? It sounds more like they're just trying to take advantage of the simple principle that adversity in some form is the primary means to spur growth and change, if put into an appropriate framework of beliefs.

Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
Has it been disproven?
Personally, I'm somewhat sympathetic to past life claims, having heard some anecdotes from people I consider to be reasonably trustworthy (though whether their interpretation of what's going on is correct is quite subject to human error, by its nature). That's a notably different matter from accepting that such claims are likely to count as actionable or, generally, that they even rise to a level where there's anything to meaningfully disprove.

Originally Posted by IanS View Post
So when theists, philosophers and others say we do not actually know how or why our universe began, what they are actually arguing about is precisely what happened in that first 100th of a second. And frankly that is a completely unreasonable complaint from those non-scientists when they say “ahh, but you do not know exactly what happened in the first 100th of a second!”. And just to make their unscientific position far worse – over the past 30 years or so, many papers have been published in the top physics journals (e.g. Phys. Rev.) which do describe quite plausible models inc. a solid mathematical foundation/explanation, for how, why, and what exactly occurred in that first 100th of a sec to produce the Big Bang.
I may as well point out that this is a distinct misrepresentation of the more varied and actual positions of the theists and philosophers... while still, in the end, giving validity to some of their varied unscientific positions by noting that there are a number of different plausible models. It's not a particularly convincing argument for how wrong they are when you get the actual positions nearly completely wrong and then still give them things to latch onto.

Originally Posted by Hokulele View Post
Well, yeah. You are asking people to believe in a soul that can be reincarnated. Something immaterial, unobservable, untestable, and, well, ridiculous.
Need it be pointed out that soul concepts that fit those traits tend to be recent and not universally held even now?

Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
I hope in my next incarnation I come back as someone so deficient in logical thought that I can make sense of this post.
Is it report the mod time? I'd think that it would be reasonably understandable even if one simply compares it to the OP, which is better treated as a hypothetical scenario from the start, given the post itself and its continued treatment by the poster.

Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
There was a parapsychologist named Dr. Charles Tart who did an experiment where he had a woman have an out of body experience and read a series of 5 digits that she could not see physically. The woman accurately reported the numbers. The experiment was flawed; they say she could've seen the numbers from a small reflection on a clock, but I do not think that's where she saw it, as the reflection was small and hardly visible.
The subconscious mind of a working brain can very much be a surprisingly powerful thing, in many ways, even if tricks aren't intentionally being used, which is far from guaranteed, even when it comes to scientists. Tricks become far less likely with multiple independent verifications, of course, but hand in hand with that is that single reports are much less trustworthy. Outside of controlled environments, trickery and inaccurate reporting are far, far greater concerns, too. Just think of how many people were totally healed by the showy faith healers!

Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
Can nature of the universe even be supernatural ? Huh .. too deep ..
To answer that, first one would need to clearly define what counts as supernatural. After one does that, the answer tends to become trivial, either as a yes or as a no.
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Old 13th August 2017, 04:17 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
If perfection is achieved, why would one care about progress? Perhaps you're a diehard fan of Loading Simulators?

Heh. But personally, I don't believe perfection is achievable. Which is what keeps things interesting.
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Old 13th August 2017, 07:03 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by Hokulele View Post
Heh. But personally, I don't believe perfection is achievable. Which is what keeps things interesting.
I disagree partially. I think that perfection may be quite achievable... potentially. Bigger problems tend to rest in that what is actually considered to be perfection is very varied, quite subject to changing opinions, and only sometimes firmly tethered to reality.
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Old 13th August 2017, 07:27 AM   #115
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I guess the question it comes down to is why do some people believe in the supernatural/paranormal and others don't believe in any of that but may have a naturalistic world view instead. Is it primarily environmental? - Certain people are just raised around other religious believers and adopt a supernatural world view? Or does it have to do primarily with the persons psychology, with people just being born with different psychologies? Or is it something else?

I don't consider myself a complete blind believer, I actually sit down and raise various objections to my beliefs. Despite that I still find myself leaning toward the supernatural. Maybe I should read more of the research that counters belief in the supernatural. Maybe belief or non-belief is just a matter of bias. I will continue to look into this.

However, isn't open-mindedness an intellectual virtue? Could you say that you really gave these ideas a chance? Did you really look into it or did you dismiss it off-hand?

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Old 13th August 2017, 07:34 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
There is Life, but there is no purpose of life. Life developed from chemistry and here we are (and other stuff too)!!! No god, no ancient aliens, none of that silliness!!!!!!!
Exactly!
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Old 13th August 2017, 08:17 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
I guess the question it comes down to is why do some people believe in the supernatural/paranormal and others don't believe in any of that but may have a naturalistic world view instead. Is it primarily environmental?

You're presenting it as if it was matter of two equally reasonable opinions. But it most certainly is not.

Science has shown itself to be as correct and accurate as it's ever reasonably possible for us to be. And that accuracy and credibility has been independently tested to death billions of times. That's why we can land space probes on a comet orbiting Jupiter. It's why we can build something like the Large Hadron Collider and confirm the existence of a Higgs field that was predicted mathematically in the 1960's.

Against that (against all of science), what you have is a belief in the magical and mystical, with zero evidence and no credible explanation.

Those two positions are not remotely comparable.
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Old 13th August 2017, 08:20 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
However, isn't open-mindedness an intellectual virtue? Could you say that you really gave these ideas a chance? Did you really look into it or did you dismiss it off-hand?
Have you dismissed the Flying Spaghetti Monster off-hand? Even though it met your criteria for being a creator god?
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Old 13th August 2017, 08:53 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by IanS View Post
You're presenting it as if it was matter of two equally reasonable opinions. But it most certainly is not.

Science has shown itself to be as correct and accurate as it's ever reasonably possible for us to be. And that accuracy and credibility has been independently tested to death billions of times. That's why we can land space probes on a comet orbiting Jupiter. It's why we can build something like the Large Hadron Collider and confirm the existence of a Higgs field that was predicted mathematically in the 1960's.

Against that (against all of science), what you have is a belief in the magical and mystical, with zero evidence and no credible explanation.

Those two positions are not remotely comparable.
Some people believe in the supernatural and some don't. As for me I'll try not to get people to believe what I believe, but continue to look for counter-evidence.

Originally Posted by RoboTimbo View Post
Have you dismissed the Flying Spaghetti Monster off-hand? Even though it met your criteria for being a creator god?
I don't believe I have. Like I said, I look for counter-evidence.

Last edited by Wonder234; 13th August 2017 at 08:57 AM.
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Old 13th August 2017, 08:55 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
If you are defining evidence as something that conclusively demonstrates what it supports, then I'd agree that there is no evidence. But if you are defining evidence as something that lends credence to something, then I disagree.
There is no evidence lending credence to souls. For me to be wrong, you will need to provide experimental evidence of same conducted by acknowledged scientific specialist(s) in any related field and accepted for publication in a juried and recognized (no pay-for-play crapzines from Africa, China or such) professional and well known/respected journal ( say New England Journal of Medicine). I have the advantage on you of being aware that will never happen - but try to surprise me!!!!!
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