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Old 13th August 2017, 07:38 AM   #1
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Won't somebody think of the... shoes?!

BBC News: Clarks in sexism row over Dolly Babe girls' shoe

"Clarks has been accused of "everyday sexism" for a calling a girls' school shoe "Dolly Babe", while the boys' equivalent is called "Leader".

The girls' shoes carry a heart-patterned insole, while the boys' insoles are decorated with footballs.

The shoe manufacturer has removed the Dolly Babe from its website following "customer feedback".

Clarks added: "We are working hard to ensure our ranges reflect our gender-neutral ethos."

However, the girls' shoe is still available online from retailers including Amazon and John Lewis and the Leader remains on sale."
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Old 13th August 2017, 08:07 AM   #2
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Completely don't see a problem. The manufacturer is selling a product to consumers, who evidently want the product. They are not required to market a product to all conceivable genders, and are making no 'statements' by providing a product aimed at a popular consumer group. Should these complaining Snowflakes demand gender-neutral BDSM accessories, too?.
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Old 13th August 2017, 08:20 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
Should these complaining Snowflakes demand gender-neutral BDSM accessories, too?.
Only the ones aimed at kids.
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Old 13th August 2017, 08:24 AM   #4
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Why do you guys hate women?
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Old 13th August 2017, 08:28 AM   #5
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I think having a shoe I can express my sparkling feminine side with is a good thing.

I want the Dolly Babe to be available as a positive, life-affirming choice that denies fixed gender roles by offering an alternative. Very pro-diversity and I hope they make even more choices. Further, let's reward this company with enough profits to keep up the good fight.
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Old 13th August 2017, 08:38 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
I think having a shoe I can express my sparkling feminine side with is a good thing.

I want the Dolly Babe to be available as a positive, life-affirming choice that denies fixed gender roles by offering an alternative. Very pro-diversity and I hope they make even more choices. Further, let's reward this company with enough profits to keep up the good fight.
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Old 13th August 2017, 09:22 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
BBC News: Clarks in sexism row over Dolly Babe girls' shoe

"Clarks has been accused of "everyday sexism" for a calling a girls' school shoe "Dolly Babe", while the boys' equivalent is called "Leader".

The girls' shoes carry a heart-patterned insole, while the boys' insoles are decorated with footballs.

The shoe manufacturer has removed the Dolly Babe from its website following "customer feedback".

Clarks added: "We are working hard to ensure our ranges reflect our gender-neutral ethos."

However, the girls' shoe is still available online from retailers including Amazon and John Lewis and the Leader remains on sale."

So people who may want to raise a girl with traditional girly stuff are forbidden by cultural norms now?



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Old 13th August 2017, 09:47 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Beerina View Post
So people who may want to raise a girl with traditional girly stuff are forbidden by cultural norms now?
I suspect that it's more the case that the leading manufacturer of children's shoes in the UK appears to be playing only to those traditions/stereotypes. Note in particular the quoted comments of parents regarding the durability and practicality of the "boys" shoes compared to the "girls" ones.

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Old 13th August 2017, 12:51 PM   #9
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This is news? Okay I'll bite.


Quote:
It is almost beyond belief that in 2017 a major company could think this is in any way acceptable. Shows what we are still up against. https://twitter.com/bbcbusiness/status/896706946040045568 …
5:40 AM - Aug 13, 2017
Talk about an overreaction!!! Most girls don't seem afraid to be girls as far as I can tell, but you know better.

Are these the only two shoes the company sells?

Quote:
Jacob Rees-Mogg, the Conservative MP for North East Somerset, also criticised Clarks. "To call a pair of shoes for a girl Dolly Babe is dreadful. It's wrong in all sorts of ways ... this is just really silly," he told the BBC.
Well it is a stupid name, I'll give 'em that. But as far as I can tell, "Dolly Baby" is a style of shoe because they resemble shoes that go on a doll. Is "Dolly BabE" what the fuss is about?

The name seems like nothing new.

Quote:
The row comes as the Advertising Standards Authority plans to crack down on ads that feature stereotypical gender roles.
Crack down? Crazy talk.

Again:
"Crack down on stereotypical gender roles"

Most reader comments I read state the issue is ridiculous. I agree. Jebus people don't buy the shoes! Or better yet, buy the boys shoes for your girl if you insist on shoving your philosophy down your kids throats. Or better better yet, grow up and shut up.

It's the 0.001% whiners getting all the attention, as usual. I mean really, this is news? "Most people are as stupid as your average Far Side character, news at 11".

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Old 13th August 2017, 12:55 PM   #10
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It goes way further than this .. have you noticed ? Women shoes are way smaller then man shoes.
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Old 13th August 2017, 08:59 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Tony View Post
Why do you guys hate women?
We don't hate them. just realize it was a mistake to give them the vote.

This is an issue the Chief Minister of Scotland troubles herself about? Seriously?
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Old 13th August 2017, 10:55 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Talk about an overreaction!!! Most girls don't seem afraid to be girls as far as I can tell, but you know better.
Because to be a girl you have to be a ditzy Dolly who is only regarded for her looks as a Babe and interested in love and romance? Because that's the message these shoes are sending, well that or as my Fiancee put it when I told her about the shoes... "That men are *********."

Quote:
Are these the only two shoes the company sells?
It doesn't really matter. One shoe send a message that the wearer should be a leader who is into rough and tumble sports, the other than the wear should be vacuous, and obsessed with looks and romance.

Quote:
Well it is a stupid name, I'll give 'em that. But as far as I can tell, "Dolly Baby" is a style of shoe because they resemble shoes that go on a doll. Is "Dolly BabE" what the fuss is about?
Yes, same as if they called a black shoe the ******

Quote:
The name seems like nothing new.
Which is sort of the point, it's time that such sexist anachronisms were dispensed with. It's a window into the thinking of those behind the marketing, that men are leaders, and women are there to look good on the man's arm.

Quote:
Crack down? Crazy talk.

Again:
"Crack down on stereotypical gender roles"
Good, the first step in educating people is showing them people doing things that they wouldn't usually associate for them, and that cuts both ways. When I say that a doctor and a nurse walked into a room, how many people envision a male doctor and a female nurse?

Quote:
Most reader comments I read state the issue is ridiculous. I agree. Jebus people don't buy the shoes!
Probably most of them, like the commenters in this thread, were males.

Quote:
Or better yet, buy the boys shoes for your girl if you insist on shoving your philosophy down your kids throats. Or better better yet, grow up and shut up.
You mean instead of having the shoe manufacturers and others shoving their philosophy down your kids throats?
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Old 14th August 2017, 01:11 AM   #13
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Wonder if a lot of people originally misheard about this as I did? I heard it on the radio and thought they'd called it the Dolly BIRD which does make it somewhat less defensible. As it is I think the connotation the name has with Dolly Bird is still problematic. Dolly Bird in the UK refers to an attractive but dumb woman of a certain character.
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Old 14th August 2017, 01:16 AM   #14
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Reminded me a little bit about this story: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7222008.stm sometimes the strangest thing gets passed right through the corporate body.
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Old 14th August 2017, 02:22 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Wonder if a lot of people originally misheard about this as I did? I heard it on the radio and thought they'd called it the Dolly BIRD which does make it somewhat less defensible. As it is I think the connotation the name has with Dolly Bird is still problematic. Dolly Bird in the UK refers to an attractive but dumb woman of a certain character.
I don't know about colloquialisms peculiar to the UK, but "Dolly Babe" sounds pretty bad in its own right.

Quote:
babe
bāb/
noun
noun: babe; plural noun: babes

1.
literary
a baby.
2.
informal
an affectionate form of address, typically for someone with whom one has a sexual or romantic relationship.
"I'm the golden boy, babe"
3.
a sexually attractive young woman or girl.
"he's been pumping up his pecs to impress the babes"
synonyms: beauty; More
informal: hottie, looker, bombshell, heartthrob, knockout, fox, (piece of) arm candy, eye-catcher, dish, boy toy, hunk

"what a babe!"
I don't think there would have been many complaints but for the name they gave it. (What on earth were they thinking? Could they not foresee this? Or perhaps they wanted to provoke scolding as a way to attract more attention?) The shoes themselves don't look particularly objectionable.
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Old 14th August 2017, 02:53 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
Honey, you should see me in a Teddy with a ball gag run through my beard.
Blessed with that image, I am properly motivated to pursue my day's goals. It is enough to know my consistent banal has a universal balance cooking away with your outre.

Thank you.
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Old 14th August 2017, 02:53 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Noztradamus View Post
This is an issue the Chief Minister of Scotland troubles herself about? Seriously?
Well, the president of the United States seems to find the time to tweet about such matters as Arnold Schwarzenegger's TV ratings. And "covfefe". And looking at his Twitter feed now, some kind of online Twitter poll that shows he's a better president than Obama.
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Old 14th August 2017, 02:56 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
It goes way further than this .. have you noticed ? Women shoes are way smaller then man shoes.
You can't really tell by size though. You have to wait and see if they menstruate.

Didn't it used to be that the public/culture evaluated these things and voted with purchases made or purchases forgone?

I rather prefer that standard over some company deciding how I should feel about shoes.
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Old 14th August 2017, 02:59 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Most reader comments I read state the issue is ridiculous. I agree. Jebus people don't buy the shoes! Or better yet, buy the boys shoes for your girl if you insist on shoving your philosophy down your kids throats. Or better better yet, grow up and shut up.
They are complaining about the quality of girls shoes. If the manufacturer takes that on board, you could end up with better shoes. Surely that's a good thing?

Also, our two are starting school in September (one for the first time). Its actually hard to find girl's school shoes that are not open at the top. Unlike boys shoes, they are more susceptible to getting wet when they are playing outside. There is only one shop that we have found that sells girls shoes that cover the foot like boy's shoes do.

End of the day though, if people don't buy these, they'll stop making them.
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Old 14th August 2017, 06:04 AM   #20
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Another problem .. I've seen gorgeous golden all-stars today. Except it was for women ! Too small for me. Is it fair ?
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Old 14th August 2017, 02:20 PM   #21
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Missing the primary problem : it's reinforcing an outdated binary-pedalistic view of the human condition. Not everyone has two feet, so it's fair to say we exist on a spectrum of *pedalsim, and yet these shoes only come in pairs.
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Old 14th August 2017, 02:35 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Joe Random View Post
Missing the primary problem : it's reinforcing an outdated binary-pedalistic view of the human condition. Not everyone has two feet, so it's fair to say we exist on a spectrum of *pedalsim, and yet these shoes only come in pairs.
On the plus side, you get one left and one right shoe. So at least we are laterally just.
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Old 14th August 2017, 02:47 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Because to be a girl you have to be a ditzy Dolly who is only regarded for her looks as a Babe and interested in love and romance? Because that's the message these shoes are sending, well that or as my Fiancee put it when I told her about the shoes... "That men are *********."
It is only one shoe out of many many that they sell. This way people have options. Girls can be girly if they want.

How dare the shoe maker assume boys want to play sports! Like we're all just brainless jocks. I'm so outraged. But wait, they have other shoes I can try.
Quote:
It doesn't really matter. One shoe send a message that the wearer should be a leader who is into rough and tumble sports, the other than the wear should be vacuous, and obsessed with looks and romance.



Yes, same as if they called a black shoe the ******



Which is sort of the point, it's time that such sexist anachronisms were dispensed with. It's a window into the thinking of those behind the marketing, that men are leaders, and women are there to look good on the man's arm.
It's a shoe. Some girls wear girly things by choice. Even grown women do. Whay can't I buy a Dolly Babe shoe if I want one?

Quote:


Good, the first step in educating people is showing them people doing things that they wouldn't usually associate for them, and that cuts both ways. When I say that a doctor and a nurse walked into a room, how many people envision a male doctor and a female nurse?



Probably most of them, like the commenters in this thread, were males.



You mean instead of having the shoe manufacturers and others shoving their philosophy down your kids throats?
Jebus cripes are you frickin serious? I've already made my points.

My doctor is female, by the way. So is my sister. She likes to shoot guns and wear pretty things sometimes. wtf?

Is it the job of a shoemaker to educate people?

ETA:
Wait, yer putting me on, right?

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Old 14th August 2017, 07:50 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Tony View Post
Why do you guys hate women?
Why not?

This signature is intended to irradiate people.
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Old 14th August 2017, 07:51 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
It goes way further than this .. have you noticed ? Women shoes are way smaller then man shoes.
It's almost like there are biological gender differences.

This signature is intended to irradiate people.
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Old 15th August 2017, 03:33 PM   #26
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Presumably they name these things these names because they think that's how people looking for these things think about them. They want to maximize sales, and "Dolly Babe", they are guessing, perhaps with reason, will sell more than "Dora the Mechanic" shoes.

I dunno. But government coming in to dictate what shall be the names of things smacks of the kind of thing George Orwell warned about.

The people should decide on cultural shifts, not government. One side commandeering the force of government in speech is one of the main problems humanity has faced through all history, and is thus sufficient reason to deny government that power.
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Old 15th August 2017, 05:46 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Well, the president of the United States seems to find the time to tweet about such matters as Arnold Schwarzenegger's TV ratings. And "covfefe". And looking at his Twitter feed now, some kind of online Twitter poll that shows he's a better president than Obama.
"Trump does it too." Worst. Excuse. Ever.
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Old 15th August 2017, 06:23 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
.......

You mean instead of having the shoe manufacturers and others shoving their philosophy down your kids throats?
Whoa! Did I miss the part where people are forced to buy these shoes?
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Old 15th August 2017, 08:47 PM   #29
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I think it's a travesti if some little transgirl had set her genderconfused heart on getting a pair of Dolly Babe shoes, and now won't get them.
Just because these bullying feminists have a dogma about what a girl should wear, and have forced these shoes off the market.
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Old 16th August 2017, 03:57 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Beerina View Post
Presumably they name these things these names because they think that's how people looking for these things think about them. They want to maximize sales, and "Dolly Babe", they are guessing, perhaps with reason, will sell more than "Dora the Mechanic" shoes.

I dunno. But government coming in to dictate what shall be the names of things smacks of the kind of thing George Orwell warned about.

The people should decide on cultural shifts, not government. One side commandeering the force of government in speech is one of the main problems humanity has faced through all history, and is thus sufficient reason to deny government that power.
Where does "government" come into it?
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Old 16th August 2017, 03:59 AM   #31
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Lisa Lionheart will be very disappointed.
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Old 16th August 2017, 04:15 AM   #32
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Meanwhile...

BBC News: Gender specific toys - do you stereotype children?

As a (first time) father to a five month old girl, I'm now acutely aware of how smotheringly gendered anything for kids is. Junior Analyst, of course, is as happy in a dress as she is in joggers and a t-shirt, and everybody agrees that her dinosaur hoodie - marketed specifically as for "boys" - is well cool.

Just after she was born early, but while still in hospital (she was a bit dehyrdrated, and so went into NICU for a few days), Mrs Analyst and I went to Mothercare (the leading UK baby-related retailer by far) to get a Moses basket. We eventually settled on one that was predominently white-painted wicker, with inter-woven cushioned fabric. The choice of the latter was shades of blue and white, pink and white, and grey and white. The prominent price on the shelf between examples fo all three was £90 reduced to £60. We went to the till and asked for the grey version. When this was fetched, the price came up as the full £90, and it turned out only the pink and blue ones were reduced. Rather than pay a "gender-neutral premium," we got the blue one.

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Old Yesterday, 08:51 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
ETA:
Wait, yer putting me on, right?
I do believe he is.
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Old Yesterday, 12:26 PM   #34
bytewizard
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It's really just subliminal advertising. An anagram of dollybabe is "boy balled". So now boy basketball players can't purchase the shoe.
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Old Yesterday, 12:58 PM   #35
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What about shoes for industry, shoes for the dead, shoes for industry?
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Old Today, 11:35 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
I suspect that it's more the case that the leading manufacturer of children's shoes in the UK appears to be playing only to those traditions/stereotypes. Note in particular the quoted comments of parents regarding the durability and practicality of the "boys" shoes compared to the "girls" ones.
I also note there's a price difference between the shoes. The "Dolly Babe" sells for £34-36 depending on size, and the "Leader" for £39-45. I wonder how that compares with the durability issue.

I followed the link from the BBC article to the John Lewis online shop, and it seems the "Dolly Babe" has been hastily renamed to "Mary Jane".

However, if I look at John Lewis' offerings of girls school uniform shoes, I don't agree with your claim that there would be no choice of more sturdy girls shoes. including from Clark's.
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Old Today, 12:01 PM   #37
wobs
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
I also note there's a price difference between the shoes. The "Dolly Babe" sells for £34-36 depending on size, and the "Leader" for £39-45. I wonder how that compares with the durability issue.

I followed the link from the BBC article to the John Lewis online shop, and it seems the "Dolly Babe" has been hastily renamed to "Mary Jane".

However, if I look at John Lewis' offerings of girls school uniform shoes, I don't agree with your claim that there would be no choice of more sturdy girls shoes. including from Clark's.
I think the issue is that in your link, just about all the oners that are for girls are open or have to kind of gap which lets water in when its wet. The gender neutral shoes are the only ones that are fully covered.

The only ones we could find for ours that were for girls and covered the foot were from M&S:
http://www.marksandspencer.com/kids-...lp&pdpredirect
And they are durable.
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