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Tags Congressional hearings , donald trump , impeachment , Trump administration , Trump controversies

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Old 22nd January 2020, 10:11 AM   #41
JoeMorgue
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I would like you to explain to me just a few things so we're clear.
No. I've laid out my opinions dozens of times across as many discussions. I'm not trotting them out again just to be the hatesink so I can endure more "LOL don't get your blood pressure up" jokes.

We've got half the Democrats on this board pretending they're preparing for a full on Red Dawn Scenario against Trump and the few Conservative who haven't devolved into outright trolling can't get beyond nihilsim and whataboutism and... Bob.

I'm not some crazy, bushy haired, yelling at squirrels in the park old man hijacking this discussion with my insane ramblings that needs to be called out everytime I say something.
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Old 22nd January 2020, 10:13 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
This is a profound failure of imagination.
Correct
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Old 22nd January 2020, 10:19 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I must say I'm rather lost as to what exactly I'm being accused or what exactly need to say to defend myself here.

Trump is not going to be convicted. Is there anyone really not agreeing with this?

Why does me saying it sound so different?
Full immersion spittle blurs the message perhaps?
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Old 22nd January 2020, 10:22 AM   #44
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Quote:
GOP voted down:

...

• CJ Roberts witness approval power.
Seems unconstitutional on its face, limiting Roberts' power to "preside", as specified in the Constitution.

No?
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Old 22nd January 2020, 10:28 AM   #45
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I have to say that I'm a bit puzzled by the lock step obedience to Trump during this impeachment. To date the argument has been fear of Trump rebuttal to any disloyalty and how it could hurt any GOP candidate in a primary, etc. OK, fine. Being under Trump's thumb removes the spine from GOP congress members. But here is a golden opportunity to get out from under. But they won't. Why not? Don't they want to be free of him? Just vote to remove him and you're free. If removed from office he would be a feckless windbag with no ability to harm anyone.

Trump's base would not like it, but what can they do? Vote democrat? Not likely. Why not do the right thing and get out form under at the same time? Could it be that it's more about the judges, and a rubber stamp for conservative policies than it is about fear of reprisal?
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Old 22nd January 2020, 10:32 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by dmaker View Post
I have to say that I'm a bit puzzled by the lock step obedience to Trump during this impeachment. To date the argument has been fear of Trump rebuttal to any disloyalty and how it could hurt any GOP candidate in a primary, etc. OK, fine. Being under Trump's thumb removes the spine from GOP congress members. But here is a golden opportunity to get out from under. But they won't. Why not? Don't they want to be free of him? Just vote to remove him and you're free. If removed from office he would be a feckless windbag with no ability to harm anyone.
I don't think they know, or at least don't trust that they are right if they think they do know, how big Trump's core, cult of personality base really is.

In 2016 who voted for "Trump," who voted for "Not Hillary," who voted for "The Republican Candidate," and a couple of other "Other" categories?

It's hard to tell what those numbers actually are for many reasons, not the least of which is that most people who voted for Trump probably couldn't actually tell you with full honesty.
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Old 22nd January 2020, 10:34 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
No. I've laid out my opinions dozens of times across as many discussions. I'm not trotting them out again just to be the hatesink so I can endure more "LOL don't get your blood pressure up" jokes.

We've got half the Democrats on this board pretending they're preparing for a full on Red Dawn Scenario against Trump and the few Conservative who haven't devolved into outright trolling can't get beyond nihilsim and whataboutism and... Bob.

I'm not some crazy, bushy haired, yelling at squirrels in the park old man hijacking this discussion with my insane ramblings that needs to be called out everytime I say something.
I don't see what you're doing as being a realist. It looks to me like you're just not happy things aren't working the way you want them to.

In my opinion, the Democrats have been the realists. They knew he wasn't going to get booted, but they knew they had to do something. They wanted to get it done quickly, and move on with governing. The neat thing is they've been able to do both and the stack of bills on McConnell's desk just proves it.
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Old 22nd January 2020, 10:46 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
They wanted to get it done quickly, and move on with governing. The neat thing is they've been able to do both and the stack of bills on McConnell's desk just proves it.
I'm not sure a stack of unpassed, unsigned bills counts as "governing". It's not like policies are being enacted or agendas advanced by that stack of bills.

It's one of the key features of the US system, that the House of Representatives can't govern on its own. It requires both chambers of the legislature and the office of the president, working together, to actually do any governing.
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Old 22nd January 2020, 10:49 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
No bad idea. The Republicans already want to turn this into the Hunter Biden Impeachment. .......
I just thought it was interesting, the guy did go to Yale Law or whatever.

But right on cue, he's on Page Six of the NY Post today, something about having to go back to the court owing an ex-stripper child support.
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Old 22nd January 2020, 10:50 AM   #50
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I heard Adam Shiff during yesterday's evening drive time. In the 10 minutes I listened, he appealed to the people watching on TV twice.

I commend him for honestly acknowledging the audience for the trial.
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Old 22nd January 2020, 10:52 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm not sure a stack of unpassed, unsigned bills counts as "governing". It's not like policies are being enacted or agendas advanced by that stack of bills.
The House has passed them. They are governing. The Senate refuses to hold them up for a vote, that is purposefully avoiding governing.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's one of the key features of the US system, that the House of Representatives can't govern on its own. It requires both chambers of the legislature and the office of the president, working together, to actually do any governing.
Jesus Christ.

Fine theprestige. If this semantic, ******** win is what you need to keep going, you can have it. It's pretty ******* obvious that I meant that the House has been creating legislation and passing bills while handling the impeachment inquiry as well. It's seriously getting ******* pathetic this has to be stated on such a granular level.
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Old 22nd January 2020, 11:01 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by dmaker View Post
I have to say that I'm a bit puzzled by the lock step obedience to Trump during this impeachment. To date the argument has been fear of Trump rebuttal to any disloyalty and how it could hurt any GOP candidate in a primary, etc. OK, fine. Being under Trump's thumb removes the spine from GOP congress members. But here is a golden opportunity to get out from under. But they won't. Why not? Don't they want to be free of him? Just vote to remove him and you're free. If removed from office he would be a feckless windbag with no ability to harm anyone.

Trump's base would not like it, but what can they do? Vote democrat? Not likely. Why not do the right thing and get out form under at the same time? Could it be that it's more about the judges, and a rubber stamp for conservative policies than it is about fear of reprisal?
One thing I imagine plays a part is a not insignificant amount of death threats against senators and representatives. Sure, a certain number is likely a constant in the life of a public servant, but imagine the increase not to mention intensity, to you and your family, if you betray your “side.” Especially with the 100% assured expectation that Trump will go after you and not let up.
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Old 22nd January 2020, 11:09 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Again, why does Moscow Mitch have so much power if Republicans disagree with him? Or are they just paying lip service to the idea of a fair process?

Mod InfoThread continued from here.
Posted By:kmortis
He controls a lot of money that goes to re-election campaigns and primaries. If they cross Mitch, they know they will lose campaign finance and/or be primaried by someone Mitch finances.
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Old 22nd January 2020, 11:11 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
The House has passed them. They are governing. The Senate refuses to hold them up for a vote, that is purposefully avoiding governing.



Jesus Christ.

Fine theprestige. If this semantic, ******** win is what you need to keep going, you can have it. It's pretty ******* obvious that I meant that the House has been creating legislation and passing bills while handling the impeachment inquiry as well. It's seriously getting ******* pathetic this has to be stated on such a granular level.
That's fair. You're totally correct. I apologize.
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Old 22nd January 2020, 11:14 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
He controls a lot of money that goes to re-election campaigns and primaries. If they cross Mitch, they know they will lose campaign finance and/or be primaried by someone Mitch finances.
Why does he control any money? Aren't their campaigns independant from one another? Excuse my ignorance here.
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Old 22nd January 2020, 11:23 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Why does he control any money? Aren't their campaigns independant from one another? Excuse my ignorance here.
The way I understand it is the RNC controls money that is disbursed among other candidates that they support in other districts.
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Old 22nd January 2020, 11:26 AM   #57
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Tbf would imagine the whole thing has got a bit tediously boring as, for the majority of the US.

Both sides are just saying the same things over and over again.
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Old 22nd January 2020, 11:32 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Why does he control any money? Aren't their campaigns independant from one another? Excuse my ignorance here.
The national party organization raises campaign funds which they allocate strategically around the country in different races. Whether a candidate gets some of the party funds, or has to rely entirely on their own fundraising, depends on a variety of factors. I guess Mitch McConnell's recommendation is one of those factors.

It makes sense. Some candidates have no problem raising enough money on their own, for their particular race. Some candidates just aren't going to win anyway, so it doesn't make sense for the party to send money their way. Some candidates are primarying other candidates; obviously both of them aren't going to get party funds.

In that last scenario, deciding whether the incumbent or the challenger should get the funds is going to be informed in part by how well the incumbent has been going along to get along with the party line.

You see a similar dynamic with AOC using the funds she's raised to support candidates who are challenging incumbents she thinks need to go.

ETA: There's probably a shadow influence as well: Major donors who can afford to donate large amounts to multiple candidates may be influenced by McConnell's recommendation. Step wrong, and not only do you lose the national party funding, but now the Kochs won't return your calls either.

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Old 22nd January 2020, 11:41 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The national party organization raises campaign funds which they allocate strategically around the country in different races. Whether a candidate gets some of the party funds, or has to rely entirely on their own fundraising, depends on a variety of factors. I guess Mitch McConnell's recommendation is one of those factors.
This plays into the issue with Bernie as well. Several people have claimed that he doesn't help fundraise for other candidates and that plays into why he doesn't get the nod. If he doesn't help others he doesn't get the backing of the DNC.
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Old 22nd January 2020, 11:59 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
Yes, and I find that terribly disappointing. Not one Democratic Amendment was approved. But I think they're looking better onstage than the Republicans.
Only to people who fell for Moscow Mitch's fake move: pretend they are only delaying the witnesses.

A lot of people saw right through that.

And idiot Trump who can't help himself, today announced, "Honestly, we have all the material. They don't have the material."
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Old 22nd January 2020, 12:08 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post

I do have to grudgingly give Trump one thing, though - "Shifty Shiff" is a good nickname. Trips off the tongue. I wonder if he came up with it himself?
The part of Trump's brain used to come up with petty insults is rather over-developed at the expense of his other brain sections.
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TRUMP CHEATS What color hat should I order with that logo? Red on black maybe? Or black on pink?

Space Force.
Because feeding poor people is socialism.
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Old 22nd January 2020, 12:10 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
https://twitter.com/justinhendrix/st...120644103?s=20



Video embedded in tweet.

I do have to grudgingly give Trump one thing, though - "Shifty Shiff" is a good nickname. Trips off the tongue. I wonder if he came up with it himself?
Nah...as previously stated, it's too obvious. But remember that Trump's previous attempt to be 'clever' (in his mind) was to use "Schitt". That was at the level of a 10 year old bully on the playground.
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Old 22nd January 2020, 12:14 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by dmaker View Post
Being under Trump's thumb removes the spine from GOP congress members. But here is a golden opportunity to get out from under. But they won't. Why not? Don't they want to be free of him?
...
Trump's base would not like it, but what can they do? Vote democrat?
I think the risk isn't that they would vote democrat, but many of them would simply decide not to vote at all.

i.e. "I liked Trump and you got rid of him. I'm sitting out the next election because you are a traitor".

Such is the power of a 'cult'.

Or alternatively "I liked Trump and his replacement is boring. I'm not excited enough to go vote".

Granted, some of his base would continue to vote for whomever the republican candidate was, but in a very tight election race, even a few thousand voters deciding to sit out could make the difference between winning and losing. And that applies to both the republican candidate (probably Pence in a post-Trump situation) and any congress critters.
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Old 22nd January 2020, 12:20 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Not blaming you, mind you, mischaracterized is Politico's words:

Mischaracterized or made a simple mistake?
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TRUMP CHEATS What color hat should I order with that logo? Red on black maybe? Or black on pink?

Space Force.
Because feeding poor people is socialism.

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Old 22nd January 2020, 12:22 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
The Democrats would get Bolton (according to rumor). Do you think Bolton has something that would be more damaging to Trump than whatever the GOP can distort Biden into saying to be used against the Dems?

I have no doubts that the GOP and the conservative media will find a way to spin Biden saying, "Good Morning" into a threat against God fearing, blue collar men and women. That's standard. What I don't doubt is that Bolton has something up his sleeve that he is dying to say. I want to know what it is.
I think Bolton is rubbing his hands together in glee because of all the publicity he's getting for his upcoming book.
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TRUMP CHEATS What color hat should I order with that logo? Red on black maybe? Or black on pink?

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Because feeding poor people is socialism.
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Old 22nd January 2020, 12:27 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I think since the outcome of this is already obvious giving Republicans more rope in the hope that this is the time they'll finally trip up and hang themselves is insane.

Long story short I have a lot more faith in the Republican's ability to pull some dirt on Biden out of whatever thin air they can they I do in the Democrat's ability to get Bolton on the stand and play out the "Did you order the Code Red?" scene in a few good men.
They already have. First you prime the pump then attack.

And notice they aren't using it to trash Biden just yet. It suggests Trump isn't that worried about running against Biden because Biden is an open book of gaffs the GOP can use against him. There's a reason they aren't in an all-out campaign against Biden yet.
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TRUMP CHEATS What color hat should I order with that logo? Red on black maybe? Or black on pink?

Space Force.
Because feeding poor people is socialism.
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Old 22nd January 2020, 12:28 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by dmaker View Post
I have to say that I'm a bit puzzled by the lock step obedience to Trump during this impeachment. To date the argument has been fear of Trump rebuttal to any disloyalty and how it could hurt any GOP candidate in a primary, etc. OK, fine. Being under Trump's thumb removes the spine from GOP congress members. But here is a golden opportunity to get out from under. But they won't. Why not? Don't they want to be free of him? Just vote to remove him and you're free. If removed from office he would be a feckless windbag with no ability to harm anyone.

Trump's base would not like it, but what can they do? Vote democrat? Not likely. Why not do the right thing and get out form under at the same time? Could it be that it's more about the judges, and a rubber stamp for conservative policies than it is about fear of reprisal?
One Republican (Senator?) who declined to be named remarked to the effect, "nobody wants to be the gazelle who strays from the herd." Go after the king, you best not miss. Look at Justin Amash. He's a small government guy who has lost backing from interest groups that give him top marks. Persona non grata.

Getting rid of Trump will also hurt the Republican brand. "But what about long-term damage?" Just close ranks and reinvent yourself down the road. The 2020 election is a big deal because it will also determine how many seats the parties can gerrymander in their favor.
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Old 22nd January 2020, 12:31 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
An intriguing theory I heard on Michael Smerconish's show - If Republicans "trade" witnesses, like allowing Bolton in trade for allowing Hunter Biden, it could be a net win for Democrats, because Hunter Biden could be a great witness.
Its only a 'win' in the same way as paying the ransom on a kidnapping is a 'win' for the victim.

There is no reason for Hunter biden to be called. He was not privy to Trump's phone call, nor was he involved in the cover up. Furthermore, there is no actual evidence that he did anything wrong at all. There is no legal or moral argument for Biden to be called at all.

Even if Biden turns out to be a 'good' witness, and doesn't somehow make the democrats look bad, he should not be within a 100 miles of the impeachment proceedings.

Of course if I were him and he did get called, I would take any question that was asked and turn it back on the republicans and the GOP. Answer all the questions with irrelevant statements.

Republican: "Do you think you were qualified to work for Burisma"
Biden: "I am more qualified than Kushner is to work for the white house... after all, my dad didn't go to jail"

Republican: "Why were you paid a lot?"
Biden: "I got paid a lot because I wasn't a hypocrite like Ken Starr"

Republican: "Did you commit criminal acts?"
Biden: "Why am I being questioned about criminality by the republicans, a group that includes 'gym' Jordan, who ignored crime that happened when he worked for Ohio state?"
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Old 22nd January 2020, 12:40 PM   #69
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Between Schiff For Brains, Nadless, Mad Max, and Piglosi, the left has the crazy vote locked down in November for sure. The DNC better start working overtime again to prevent Comrade Bernie from getting the nomination, because he's a candidate the clueless, brainwashed, and crazies will prefer. Trump will tell the truth about Comrade Bernie and will sweep about 45 states, scooping up the non-clueless swing voters with a gigantic common sense backhoe.
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Old 22nd January 2020, 12:41 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
I just thought it was interesting, the guy did go to Yale Law or whatever.

But right on cue, he's on Page Six of the NY Post today, something about having to go back to the court owing an ex-stripper child support.
Oh dear, no way do the Democrats want Hunter Biden on the stand. He's a piece of work.

Hunter Biden named as father of 'Baby Doe' in paternity suit by Arkansas woman
Quote:
Roberts and Hunter Biden’s relationship happened while Biden dated Hallie Biden, the widow of his brother Beau, ...

During divorce proceedings, Hunter Biden's first wife alleged that he spent money "extravagantly on his own interests (including drugs, alcohol, prostitutes, strip clubs and gifts for women with whom he has sexual relations), while leaving the family with no funds to pay legitimate bills."

He was listed as a customer of the adultery site Ashley Madison when it was hacked in 2015.

Hunter Biden has repeatedly been linked to drugs over the years. ...

Last month, it was revealed that a police report said Hunter returned a rental car in Arizona that contained a cocaine pipe ... In addition to "a small white and brown pipe approximately 3-4 inches long,” an officer also found “a small ziplock bag with a white powdery substance inside all sitting on the passenger seat." Officials determined that the pipe was used to smoke cocaine.
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Old 22nd January 2020, 12:50 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
...
Getting rid of Trump will also hurt the Republican brand. "But what about long-term damage?" Just close ranks and reinvent yourself down the road. The 2020 election is a big deal because it will also determine how many seats the parties can gerrymander in their favor.
They have no alternative candidate that has a chance in hell of winning POTUS in 2020. Trump is their lesser of two evils.
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Old 22nd January 2020, 12:52 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
Between Schiff For Brains, Nadless, Mad Max, and Piglosi, the left has the crazy vote locked down in November for sure. The DNC better start working overtime again to prevent Comrade Bernie from getting the nomination, because he's a candidate the clueless, brainwashed, and crazies will prefer. Trump will tell the truth about Comrade Bernie and will sweep about 45 states, scooping up the non-clueless swing voters with a gigantic common sense backhoe.
This is just empty rhetoric and pointless name-calling.
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Old 22nd January 2020, 12:55 PM   #73
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Comrade Bernie! Coming from a supporter of Putin's puppet, Trump, that's adorable.
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Old 22nd January 2020, 12:57 PM   #74
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I sure can do without Nadler speeches on cover-ups and defense lawyers calling him a liar or whatever. There were a couple of significant changes made and that counts for something. House managers should focus on presenting the case because they have a good one.
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Old 22nd January 2020, 01:00 PM   #75
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Local news broke in again for regular programing, telling people they could go to the station's web page to keep watching.
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Old 22nd January 2020, 01:01 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
There is no reason for Hunter biden to be called. He was not privy to Trump's phone call, nor was he involved in the cover up. Furthermore, there is no actual evidence that he did anything wrong at all. There is no legal or moral argument for Biden to be called at all.

Even if Biden turns out to be a 'good' witness, and doesn't somehow make the democrats look bad, he should not be within a 100 miles of the impeachment proceedings.
I think this is why it would be considered a win for the Dems, especially if the Republicans aren't allowed to scream at the witness like in the House proceedings. If they have to keep the questions within the scope of the impeachment inquiry, how much information can Biden provide?

GOP: Did you break any laws or were you involved with any corruption with regards to Burisma or in the Ukraine at all?
Biden: No, I was not. I worked on their board.

GOP: What did you do while you were on the board?
Biden: I provided guidance for investments on a global level due to my experience as a lobbyist, and knowledge of global trade.

What else can he provide? On the flip, Bolton has a ton of information that he's willing to spill. Why? As SG said, he's got a book to sell and Trump has **** on him more than once. Trump will amplify his degradation of Bolton several hundred times if he agrees to testify.
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Last edited by plague311; 22nd January 2020 at 01:03 PM.
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Old 22nd January 2020, 01:02 PM   #77
plague311
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
I sure can do without Nadler speeches on cover-ups and defense lawyers calling him a liar or whatever. There were a couple of significant changes made and that counts for something. House managers should focus on presenting the case because they have a good one.
I'm pretty sure that's the next phase. This part is, I think, kind of a grandstanding moment. The next steps are going to be the "presenting the case" section of the impeachment. This is just to get rules in place and constantly berating the GOP's cover-up tactics can work to the Dems advantage during this part.
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Old 22nd January 2020, 01:15 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
We will get some token resistant from some Republicans, most probably never on any thing that actually matters, never in a way that's actually going to effect the final outcome.
I think we can call this the Kavanaugh Maneuver.

Remember, during the confirmation of Kavanaugh, a lot of Republicans claimed Ford was an "attractive" witness, and in the end Flake pushed for a last-minute investigation into her allegations. What they got was a whitewash (an investigation that wasn't allowed to actually interview many people that would have had relevant information.)

I think the same thing is happening here... a few select Republicans will engage in some empty rhetoric (i.e. "must be fair!" "Keeping a open mind"), they may even push to allow some minor rule changes, but in the end it is just to provide a whitewash.
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Old 22nd January 2020, 01:16 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
Getting rid of Trump will also hurt the Republican brand.
That ship sailed 3 years ago.
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Old 22nd January 2020, 01:23 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
This is just empty rhetoric and pointless name-calling.
Which I would have been spared had you not elected to quote it.
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