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Tags Congressional hearings , donald trump , impeachment , Trump administration , Trump controversies

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Old 23rd January 2020, 12:51 PM   #161
pgwenthold
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Huh. I always read that as "the GOP has been taken over by Trump", not "there is a faction of the GOP that is pro-Trump".
According to Trump, that "faction" is the largest faction of the GOP that has ever supported a President ever, so "the GOP has been taken over by Trump" seems a fair characterization, for sure.

As I just posted, if those non-Trump supporters of the GOP have a problem with it, they should take it up with him.
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Old 23rd January 2020, 12:56 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
There's a difference between Senators overseeing foreign policy by consensus of the Senate, and the Senators conducting diplomacy themselves as individuals.
It depends. US Congressmen are diplomats representing this nation. As long as they are staying true to stated national policy and goals, they are good to go. Congressional leaders often meet with Heads of State and foreign government representatives abroad. It's part of their oversight responsibilities.
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Old 23rd January 2020, 01:14 PM   #163
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They're on break and PBS is interviewing Senators.

Rick Scott, FL Republican: Just keep lying. Keep lying the Democrats have no case. Keep lying they've proved nothing. Keep lying there was something suspicious about Hunter Biden getting hired.

It's maddening.
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Old 23rd January 2020, 01:36 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
According to Trump, that "faction" is the largest faction of the GOP that has ever supported a President ever, so "the GOP has been taken over by Trump" seems a fair characterization, for sure.

As I just posted, if those non-Trump supporters of the GOP have a problem with it, they should take it up with him.
"According to Trump."

LOL.
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Old 23rd January 2020, 01:38 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
"According to Trump."

LOL.
Yes.

As I said, if the non-trumpers have a problem, take it up with him.

But no, they sit quiet.
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Old 23rd January 2020, 01:40 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
"According to Trump."

LOL.
You got better data?
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Old 23rd January 2020, 01:45 PM   #167
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I've bought very few books related to Trump directly. I looked at the election itself and have a book on the media effects happening then. I don't really need to waste my reading time with Trump, I can read all his tweets and other similar things on line.

I'm not reading Comey book, Woodward book, not Stable Genius. BUT, if Parnas comes out out with a book (get help from Rachel Maddow, Lev) I will get that. Almost like watching one of them crime series on TV.
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Old 23rd January 2020, 01:50 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Why would roberts say anything? It's not like he has any real power here.
If he can tell them not to pettifog, why can't he point out leaving is disruptive?
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Old 23rd January 2020, 02:03 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Quote:
According to Trump, that "faction" is the largest faction of the GOP that has ever supported a President ever, so "the GOP has been taken over by Trump" seems a fair characterization, for sure.
"According to Trump."
LOL.
I am assuming your complaint is that we are basing things on Trump's claims of support.

It is true... Trump is an untrustworthy source of information. He regularly regularly takes numbers out of context and cherry-picks (at best), and outright lies (at worst.) His '95% support' from the republicans should be viewed with some skepticism.

However, even less favorable polls suggest that the vast majority of Republicans support Trump. For example:
Ipsos (January 2020): 84% approval from registered republicans
Emmerson poll (December 2019): 90% support in GOP Primary

https://www.ipsos.com/en-us/news-pol...cal-2020-01-22
https://emersonpolling.reportablenew...s-warren-falls

So even if Trump is over-stating his current support level among Republicans, it is not a stretch to say that he still enjoys a majority support among GOP voters.

The man who called Neo-Nazis fine people and who insinuated Mexicans were a bunch of violent rapists. The man who has seen multiple cabinet members and other associates get arrested.The man who has lied about things like "Mexicans will pay for a wall". The man who sat out Vietnam due to 'bone spurs', and who has taken money from military families, yet claims to "love the military". And still roughly 4 out of 5 republicans at least say "Yup he's our man".
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Old 23rd January 2020, 02:20 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Because here's probably a more appropriate place than the general Trump Presidency thread...

The Senate Republicans didn't even try to follow the set rules, with no consequences from Roberts.
Another reason for Moscow Mitch to ban reporters from the hallways around the hearing.

A PAC made an ad about it.
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Old 23rd January 2020, 02:26 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
https://twitter.com/kyledcheney/stat...93490476371968

Article embedded in tweet. Notable because Gaetz was a full-on lapdog, but then got on the wrong side of Trump & the rest of the GOP. This could be an indicator that the split will increase from here on in.
He missed the memo.
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Old 23rd January 2020, 02:27 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
They're on break and PBS is interviewing Senators.

Rick Scott, FL Republican: Just keep lying. Keep lying the Democrats have no case. Keep lying they've proved nothing. Keep lying there was something suspicious about Hunter Biden getting hired.

It's maddening.
The GOP is dedicated to the theory “Repeat a lie often enough and it becomes the truth”.

There is absolutely no doubt that Trump did what the Dems say he did. That is why the GOP can't...not won't...can't disprove it. That's why they are fighting testimony from Mulvaney, Bolton, etc. They know it's true. Instead, the just repeat the lie it's not an impeachable offense, the Dems are trying to overturn the election, etc. But it's the only defense they've got...as pathetic as it is. But the saddest part is that their overriding concern for their own political self-preservation takes precedence over the good of the country.
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Old 23rd January 2020, 02:29 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
If you want to see up close examples of what corrupt behaviour in the legislative body of a Banana Republic looks like, look no further than the actions of the Republican Senators for the next few days.
And the past 3 years.
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Old 23rd January 2020, 02:34 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
I am assuming your complaint is that we are basing things on Trump's claims of support.
Not complaint. Amusement that Trump was your knee-jerk cite, as if either of us give a ****.
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Old 23rd January 2020, 02:38 PM   #175
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Remember Jonathan Turley? He is the constitutional expert who the Republicans called as their witness at the house impeachment hearings. (He claimed that the Democrat's case was basically not strong enough.)

Well, now here what he has to say:

From: https://www.axios.com/gop-impeachmen...f78275fe5.html
"The White House is arguing that you cannot impeach a president without a crime. It is a view that is at odds with history and the purpose of the Constitution."

Yup... the guy who the Republicans thought "This is our expert!" is basically saying one of the main defenses of Trump and the republican party is bunk.
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Old 23rd January 2020, 02:56 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Not complaint. Amusement that Trump was your knee-jerk cite, as if either of us give a ****.

"...as if either of us give a ****"??


With all due respect, you actually voted for him, so it seems you do indeed at least give enough of a **** to vote for him.
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Old 23rd January 2020, 02:59 PM   #177
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Trump’s 95% claim is bogus, or at least dated.

Still, an admittedly large or even growing percentage of a group that is dwindling is not necessarily a good thing. If and when Republicans represent 20% of the population, it will be small comfort to even reach 100% approval in that dying group of stalwarts.

There was a time I could be counted as one of the alleged 5% of Republicans not supporting Trump. In that respect I probably boosted his support when I left the party.
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Old 23rd January 2020, 03:04 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Remember Jonathan Turley? He is the constitutional expert who the Republicans called as their witness at the house impeachment hearings. (He claimed that the Democrat's case was basically not strong enough.)

Well, now here what he has to say:

From: https://www.axios.com/gop-impeachmen...f78275fe5.html
"The White House is arguing that you cannot impeach a president without a crime. It is a view that is at odds with history and the purpose of the Constitution."

Yup... the guy who the Republicans thought "This is our expert!" is basically saying one of the main defenses of Trump and the republican party is bunk.
Turley still can't admit the House is putting on the opposite of a thin case.

Interesting he chose to do penance bashing Dershy's ludicrous position instead of admitting being wrong.
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Old 23rd January 2020, 03:35 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
"...as if either of us give a ****"??


With all due respect, you actually voted for him, so it seems you do indeed at least give enough of a **** to vote for him.
Sure. Doesn't mean I'm impressed when you cite him as an authority. Are you impressed?
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Old 23rd January 2020, 03:56 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Sure. Doesn't mean I'm impressed when you cite him as an authority. Are you impressed?

Of course I'm not impressed. To the contrary, I'm wondering what kind of logical hoops you must jump through to justify voting for a president that you don't even trust as a cited source.
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Old 23rd January 2020, 04:02 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Of course I'm not impressed. To the contrary, I'm wondering what kind of logical hoops you must jump through to justify voting for a president that you don't even trust as a cited source.
He thinks Trump is "godly". America's King David.

I'm sure if like King David, Trump kills some guy to sleep with his wife, in his mind, it's ok.
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Old 23rd January 2020, 04:22 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
If he can tell them not to pettifog, why can't he point out leaving is disruptive?
How disruptive is it, really? If I were a Democratic senator I sure as heck would need a break from the Republicans when they start their own uninterrupted presentation. If Roberts treats the sides equally maybe it's not such a huge deal.

It's interesting that this issue is smacking GOP senators across the face because it's probably the one thing that they agree with the House on. They could almost stipulate that yes,Trump did everything the House said he did; but they are still not going to remove him for it.

ETA: It may be what they're *already* saying. They could spend their 24 hours reading from the telephone book or simply say, "The defense rests," then proceed with their predetermined vote.

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Old 23rd January 2020, 04:34 PM   #183
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The GOP rebuttal will be on Saturday. How convenient.
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Old 23rd January 2020, 04:37 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
How disruptive is it, really? If I were a Democratic senator I sure as heck would need a break from the Republicans when they start their own uninterrupted presentation. If Roberts treats the sides equally maybe it's not such a huge deal.

It's interesting that this issue is smacking GOP senators across the face because it's probably the one thing that they agree with the House on. They could almost stipulate that yes,Trump did everything the House said he did; but they are still not going to remove him for it.

ETA: It may be what they're *already* saying. They could spend their 24 hours reading from the telephone book or simply say, "The defense rests," then proceed with their predetermined vote.
The point was not how disruptive it is or isn't. The point is they are supposed to stay in the hearing. Why can't Roberts point that out? There is no rule he can't. He cited the pettifogging was disrespectful of this important court. So is walking out.

BTW, the argument being echoed by the GOP in their press interviews is denial the wrongdoing was established. Not, it was established but not significant.

Nope. The GOP has learned there is no downside to pure gaslighting.
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Old 23rd January 2020, 04:47 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
The point was not how disruptive it is or isn't. The point is they are supposed to stay in the hearing. Why can't Roberts point that out? There is no rule he can't. He cited the pettifogging was disrespectful of this important court. So is walking out.

BTW, the argument being echoed by the GOP in their press interviews is denial the wrongdoing was established. Not, it was established but not significant.

Nope. The GOP has learned there is no downside to pure gaslighting.
At this point, Trump could tweet a confession admitting he did exactly what the Dems have shown he did and the GOP would claim he was just kidding or the media is misrepresenting what the confession said.
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Old 23rd January 2020, 04:47 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Of course I'm not impressed. To the contrary, I'm wondering what kind of logical hoops you must jump through to justify voting for a president that you don't even trust as a cited source.
I didn't vote for him because of his subject matter expertise.

Anyway, I'm just amused by how often I present my sincere and considered opinion, and the knee jerk rebuttal is "but Trump says!" by people who don't actually buy what Trump says.

What's the end game, there? Are you trying to convince me that I'm not supposed to dissent from Donald Trump?
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Old 23rd January 2020, 04:51 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I didn't vote for him because of his subject matter expertise.

Anyway, I'm just amused by how often I present my sincere and considered opinion, and the knee jerk rebuttal is "but Trump says!" by people who don't actually buy what Trump says.

What's the end game, there? Are you trying to convince me that I'm not supposed to dissent from Donald Trump?
If you didn't vote for him because of his subject matter expertise, why did you vote for him? What was it about him that attracted you? Just curious.
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Old 23rd January 2020, 05:04 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
If you didn't vote for him because of his subject matter expertise, why did you vote for him? What was it about him that attracted you? Just curious.: confused :
I've covered this ad nauseum elsewhere. I'm sorry you missed it, but I'm not going to cover it again here.
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Old 23rd January 2020, 05:13 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I've covered this ad nauseum elsewhere. I'm sorry you missed it, but I'm not going to cover it again here.
Guess I missed it but going back through thousands of your posts to find this particular topic isn't exactly an easy task. I can only assume, then, that you like his policies so will overlook that he's a lying, misogynistic, bullying, childish, corrupt, racist malignant narcissist who cares only about himself. Gotcha.

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Old 23rd January 2020, 05:20 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I didn't vote for him because of his subject matter expertise.

Anyway, I'm just amused by how often I present my sincere and considered opinion, and the knee jerk rebuttal is "but Trump says!" by people who don't actually buy what Trump says.

What's the end game, there? Are you trying to convince me that I'm not supposed to dissent from Donald Trump?

A far more preferable end game would be for you to realize the folly of voting for Trump to begin with.

And, you know, not buying what Trump says does not magically make what Trump says irrelevant. I don't buy what Trump says but that doesn't change the fact that I would be alarmed if he threatened to nuke North Korea, for example. You seem to be comparing apples with oranges.
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Old 23rd January 2020, 05:26 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
A far more preferable end game would be for you to realize the folly of voting for Trump to begin with.

And, you know, not buying what Trump says does not magically make what Trump says irrelevant. I don't buy what Trump says but that doesn't change the fact that I would be alarmed if he threatened to nuke North Korea, for example. You seem to be comparing apples with oranges.
If I say we shouldn't nuke North Korea, and your rebuttal is, "but Trump says we should!", what's your point?
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Old 23rd January 2020, 05:28 PM   #192
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Is anyone else a bit nervous about how often Russia is being called "our enemy"?

"Enemy" is such a harsh term, and usually reserved for people with an actual military conflict, even if it is a cold war.

In some ways, I'm glad. There was some reluctance for a while to acknowledge that they weren't really on our team, but there's something vaguely disquieting about a steady stream of "our enemy, Russia". Not even "adversary" or "hostile power".


Not a big deal, but just something that sounds awkward about it.
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Old 23rd January 2020, 05:31 PM   #193
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I've thought for a long time that Russia's geographic position puts it in existential conflict with all of its neighbors and their allies.

Almost all Russian access to the wider world and its markets is mediated by other nations. Compare with the US, which has unrestricted access to both major oceans, and the markets that border them.
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Old 23rd January 2020, 05:38 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
If I say we shouldn't nuke North Korea, and your rebuttal is, "but Trump says we should!", what's your point?

Assuming that was what happened:

My point would be: Then maybe you shouldn't have voted for someone who threatens to nuke North Korea. Do a better job of matching your vote to your ideals.

My turn: What was your point in asking me that question?
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Old 23rd January 2020, 06:05 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I've thought for a long time that Russia's geographic position puts it in existential conflict with all of its neighbors and their allies.

Almost all Russian access to the wider world and its markets is mediated by other nations. Compare with the US, which has unrestricted access to both major oceans, and the markets that border them.
I agree. Its why Russia annexed Crimea.

Don't forget the US also has unrestricted access to the Caribbean beside the two oceans.
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Old 23rd January 2020, 06:31 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Is anyone else a bit nervous about how often Russia is being called "our enemy"?

"Enemy" is such a harsh term, and usually reserved for people with an actual military conflict, even if it is a cold war.

In some ways, I'm glad. There was some reluctance for a while to acknowledge that they weren't really on our team, but there's something vaguely disquieting about a steady stream of "our enemy, Russia". Not even "adversary" or "hostile power".


Not a big deal, but just something that sounds awkward about it.
I have no problem with it. Russia is our enemy.
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Old 23rd January 2020, 06:48 PM   #197
Stacyhs
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I have no problem with it. Russia is our enemy.
Agreed. If anyone thinks we aren't in a cold war with Putin, they're fooling themselves.
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Old 23rd January 2020, 06:58 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I have no problem with it. Russia is our enemy.
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Agreed. If anyone thinks we aren't in a cold war with Putin, they're fooling themselves.
Putin =/= Russia.

The important point is that national borders are becoming less and less relevant to Pootie. He curries favours and manipulates people rather than nations. If Trump had been the president of, say, Mongolia, Putin would have been equally willing to using all that kompromat on him and holding Trump's IOU's over his head when it came to getting what he wanted.

And what Pootie wants is power. He doesn't give a crap what happens to the USA or the West per se. As long is he can use and push the situation to increase his own power over them. Trump in the White House is working out very well for him. Trump, with a little help from his friend, has almost completely destabilised the USA and its alliances. It makes Russia and especially Putin himself look like the actual "stable genius" in international politics.
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Old 23rd January 2020, 07:00 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
At this point, Trump could tweet a confession admitting he did exactly what the Dems have shown he did and the GOP would claim he was just kidding or the media is misrepresenting what the confession said.
Actually, they showed videos of Trump saying outright that he wanted the Bidens investigated. It appears he said it on multiple occasions.
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I AGREE

He can't help himself. He doesn't get it you can't ask foreign governments to investigate your political opponents. Which is especially insane given he claimed it was wrong for Obama to investigate his campaign.



There was an interesting comment on BBC news tonight. When the Constitution was written, there was no criminal code. So Dershy's claim the Founders meant for Impeachment to be for an actual crime was impossible.

Dershy's going to be laughed at by his peers.

Of course when gaslighting is as successful as it is for Trump and his minions, I suppose they don't care.
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Old 23rd January 2020, 07:07 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Is anyone else a bit nervous about how often Russia is being called "our enemy"?
Part of me agrees with you but then Russia cheated for Trump and they are currently spreading Trump's CT that it was Ukraine not them.

And I believe they are on opposite sides of a number of conflicts in the world.


So it's not like there is no basis for the label.


It's probably not helpful to call them the enemy, though.
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