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Tags Congressional hearings , donald trump , impeachment , Trump administration , Trump controversies

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Old 24th January 2020, 10:01 AM   #241
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"What did Trump think Biden did?" is a red herring because the proper way for the President to investigate something doesn't involve bringing in foreign agents.

If I think my next door neighbor is stealing my paper every morning when he's out walking the dog and I hire Stalin to "look into him for me" I'm not exonerated if he turns out he's really stealing my paper or committing some other crime that comes out during the investigation.
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Old 24th January 2020, 10:19 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"What did Trump think Biden did?" is a red herring because the proper way for the President to investigate something doesn't involve bringing in foreign agents.

If I think my next door neighbor is stealing my paper every morning when he's out walking the dog and I hire Stalin to "look into him for me" I'm not exonerated if he turns out he's really stealing my paper or committing some other crime that comes out during the investigation.

It amuses me that the defense of Trump is profoundly wrong on so many levels that we end up arguing which level of wrong has primacy.
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Old 24th January 2020, 10:21 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
It amuses me that the defense of Trump is profoundly wrong on so many levels that we end up arguing which level of wrong has primacy.
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Old 24th January 2020, 10:40 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Evolution of the GOP position on impeachment:
"It doesn't take a crime."
"It doesn't take a technical crime."
"It requires a crime."
"It requires a crime-like behaviour."
"It doesn't really matter."
I also see many Trumpists doing whatabout Obama or Hillary, perceiving them as somehow more corrupt. In what way I don't have a ******* clue.
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Old 24th January 2020, 10:42 AM   #245
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1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it.
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Old 24th January 2020, 10:43 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Influence peddling and/or bribery.

I'm not saying he did those things, or even that there is any evidence of those things. I am saying that some people suspected him of those things.
Okay. Keep going. Whom is he suspected to have bribed, and to what end?

In addition, what exactly are these suspicions based on? Is it anything more than "Well I heard on Facebook..."?
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Old 24th January 2020, 10:44 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
I believe his actual quote was, "I wasn't wrong then but I'm more right now".
I can understand that. As one of my bosses used to say -- and he was a successful New York businessman (and a registered Republican) -- "We believe what we need to believe when we need to believe it. If the situation changes, we believe something else."
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Old 24th January 2020, 10:52 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"What did Trump think Biden did?" is a red herring because the proper way for the President to investigate something doesn't involve bringing in foreign agents.

He knows more about military operations and fighting terrorism than any of his generals. Obviously, he also knows more about investigation than any of the federal law enforcement agencies. It's only logical that he apply his superior knowledge to initiate the investigation himself, in a way that his inferiors wouldn't have considered.
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Old 24th January 2020, 11:04 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
Okay. Keep going. Whom is he suspected to have bribed, and to what end?

In addition, what exactly are these suspicions based on? Is it anything more than "Well I heard on Facebook..."?
Burisma, where he was on the board, is suspected of bribing Ukrainian officials to get contracts. Hunter is also suspected of contacting his father in an attemp to influence foreign policy in ways that would benefit Burisma.

These suspicions, as far as I know, are based on nothing more than a belief that Hunter Biden had no real qualifications for a job for which he was paid a million dollars per year.

ETA: some people are probably unaware that the Biden corruption angle was a right wing talking point for months before Trump picked it up. Trump probably got it from Hannity.

Last edited by Meadmaker; 24th January 2020 at 11:09 AM.
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Old 24th January 2020, 11:07 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Burisma, where he was on the board, is suspected of bribing Ukrainian officials to get contracts. Hunter is also suspected of contacting his father in an attemp to influence foreign policy in ways that would benefit Burisma.

These suspicions, as far as I know, are based on nothing more than a belief that Hunter Biden had no real qualifications for a job for which he was paid a million dollars per year.
Which, even if it were true, has zip all to do with announcing an investigation in Donald Trump's political opponent.
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Old 24th January 2020, 11:23 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Burisma, where he was on the board, is suspected of bribing Ukrainian officials to get contracts. Hunter is also suspected of contacting his father in an attemp to influence foreign policy in ways that would benefit Burisma.

These suspicions, as far as I know, are based on nothing more than a belief that Hunter Biden had no real qualifications for a job for which he was paid a million dollars per year.

ETA: some people are probably unaware that the Biden corruption angle was a right wing talking point for months before Trump picked it up. Trump probably got it from Hannity.
Other than the fact he had a decade + of serving on multiple boards and running a few of his own businesses.

I know it's not your point, but that is such a tired ass argument. How could he possibly be more qualified to sit on a board than having a decade of experience doing exactly that?
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Old 24th January 2020, 11:28 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Evolution of the GOP position on impeachment:
"It doesn't take a crime."
"It doesn't take a technical crime."
"It requires a crime."
"It requires a crime-like behaviour."
"It doesn't really matter."
“I was not aware, but am delighted to discover, Trump’s bunghole tastes just like Franken Berry.*”

*Part of this nutritious breakfast.
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Old 24th January 2020, 11:30 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Other than the fact he had a decade + of serving on multiple boards and running a few of his own businesses.

I know it's not your point, but that is such a tired ass argument. How could he possibly be more qualified to sit on a board than having a decade of experience doing exactly that?
Experience in the field. Achievements generally. Not widely known to be a failson.

Look at the Theranos board. There is no doubt it was an incredible assembly of people. It was also clear they were not their for their qualifications and they were unqualified to be on the Theranos board.
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Old 24th January 2020, 11:45 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Part of me agrees with you but then Russia cheated for Trump and they are currently spreading Trump's CT that it was Ukraine not them.

And I believe they are on opposite sides of a number of conflicts in the world.


So it's not like there is no basis for the label.


It's probably not helpful to call them the enemy, though.
Not just conflicts around the world. When, for example, the leader of a white supremacist group that was just busted by the FBI for planning a number of terroristic attacks in the US just happens to live in Russia with his Russian wife and sure looks like he's acting on the behalf of Russia, that's a problem. When Russian mercenaries under a Putin stooge directly attacked an American base in Syria, that's a problem. When Russia apparently steals the logins to a bunch of US nuclear power plant accounts, that's a problem.

"Enemy" or not, they're not even remotely our friends, regardless of how willing the Trump Administration is to prioritize Russian jobs over American jobs and how willing Trump is to pass them super top secret information and give them direct access to our election electronics.
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Old 24th January 2020, 12:08 PM   #255
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Assuming that was what happened:

My point would be: Then maybe you shouldn't have voted for someone who threatens to nuke North Korea. Do a better job of matching your vote to your ideals.

My turn: What was your point in asking me that question?

Huh. It seems like it was only two days ago when I was pointing out how theprestige keeps ghosting my questions. He said to try addressing the argument, not the arguer. I responded, "We'll see".

That certainly didn't take long: Very next day he's still ghosting my questions.


Yes, I certainly do see. I see BS, as usual.
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Old 24th January 2020, 12:18 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
It amuses me that the defense of Trump is profoundly wrong on so many levels that we end up arguing which level of wrong has primacy.
"Trump hasn't done anything wrong until we've perfectly defined, categorized, and scaled his wrongness" has been a common tactic from the stalling contrarians for a while now.

It's arguing that the Pacific Ocean isn't wet because I can't say, down to the individual H20 atom, how much water is in it.
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Old 24th January 2020, 12:20 PM   #257
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Schiff and Nadler are both lying about the Hamilton quote. It was not about impeachment. It was lifted from a letter to George Washington about tax policy five years after the Constitution was adopted. He did discuss the possibility of a monarchy developing, but that was poo-pooed by Washington.

"He (Hamilton) does, however, warn that, "the only path to a subversion of the republican system of the Country is, by flattering the prejudices of the people, and exciting their jealousies and apprehensions," to throw affairs into anarchy and drive citizens into, "the arms of monarchy for repose and security."

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/sek...eachment-trial

Last edited by BrooklynBaby; 24th January 2020 at 12:29 PM. Reason: add
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Old 24th January 2020, 12:23 PM   #258
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Other than the fact he had a decade + of serving on multiple boards and running a few of his own businesses.

I know it's not your point, but that is such a tired ass argument. How could he possibly be more qualified to sit on a board than having a decade of experience doing exactly that?
I'm describing a belief, not a reality. You probably understood that, but just clarifying for the folks at home.


Personally, I find it amusing that Republicans are so concerned about overpaid, do-nothing, boards of directors.
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Old 24th January 2020, 12:24 PM   #259
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Experience in the field. Achievements generally. Not widely known to be a failson.
Are you saying Biden didn't have these? If you're saying Biden didn't have experience, you'd be wrong. If you're saying he didn't have achievements, you'd be wrong. If you're saying he was a failson, you'd be wrong.
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Old 24th January 2020, 12:29 PM   #260
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I'm saying Trump and his apologists win more and more the longer we talk about whether or not Biden did anything because it doesn't matter.

The President doesn't get order political hits on opponents using foreign agents just because it's justified.

If a split hair is equal on both sides, it doesn't need to be split.
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Old 24th January 2020, 12:37 PM   #261
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'm saying Trump and his apologists win more and more the longer we talk about whether or not Biden did anything because it doesn't matter.
Normally I'd agree with you because I feel this statement is correct, but I don't think it applies to this forum. Talking about Biden isn't really a distraction and there's only so much news in a day. I don't think anyone here is distracted by the stream of bull **** and asshattery related to Biden for it to change a mind 'round these parts.

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
The President doesn't get order political hits on opponents using foreign agents just because it's justified.

If a split hair is equal on both sides, it doesn't need to be split.
But 2 > 1
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Old 24th January 2020, 12:58 PM   #262
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Looks like some of the claims by Parnas have had some independent verification:

From: https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/reco...ry?id=68506437
A recording reviewed by ABC News appears to capture President Donald Trump telling associates he wanted the then-U.S. ambassador to Ukraine Marie Yovanovitch fired while speaking at a small gathering that included Lev Parnas and Igor Fruman...
...
On the recording, it appears the two Giuliani associates are telling Trump that the U.S. ambassador has been bad-mouthing him, which leads directly to the apparent remarks by the president. The recording was made by Fruman, according to sources familiar with the tape.


Assuming it is authentic, it certainly destroys Trump's claims that he didn't know Parnas at all. (Well, whatever credibility Trump had on the matter.... the constant stream of Parnas/Trump pictures was a pretty good indication that Parnas was not just some random guy that Trump took a selfie with.)
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Old 24th January 2020, 01:04 PM   #263
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Looks like some of the claims by Parnas have had some independent verification:

From: https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/reco...ry?id=68506437
A recording reviewed by ABC News appears to capture President Donald Trump telling associates he wanted the then-U.S. ambassador to Ukraine Marie Yovanovitch fired while speaking at a small gathering that included Lev Parnas and Igor Fruman...
...
On the recording, it appears the two Giuliani associates are telling Trump that the U.S. ambassador has been bad-mouthing him, which leads directly to the apparent remarks by the president. The recording was made by Fruman, according to sources familiar with the tape.


Assuming it is authentic, it certainly destroys Trump's claims that he didn't know Parnas at all. (Well, whatever credibility Trump had on the matter.... the constant stream of Parnas/Trump pictures was a pretty good indication that Parnas was not just some random guy that Trump took a selfie with.)
It says a lot about Trump when a slug like Parnas is more credible than Trump.
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Old 24th January 2020, 01:10 PM   #264
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Is anyone else a bit nervous about how often Russia is being called "our enemy"?

"Enemy" is such a harsh term, and usually reserved for people with an actual military conflict, even if it is a cold war.

In some ways, I'm glad. There was some reluctance for a while to acknowledge that they weren't really on our team, but there's something vaguely disquieting about a steady stream of "our enemy, Russia". Not even "adversary" or "hostile power".


Not a big deal, but just something that sounds awkward about it.
Not an "enemy" more of a hostile foreign power.

If you doubt that Russia and Putin are doing everything they can to undermine and ultimately destroy western democracy, in particular US democracy, then you are a fool.... one of the same kinds of fools who pursued appeasement with Hitler, and didn't want to push forward into Iraq and take out Saddam at the end of Desert Storm.
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Old 24th January 2020, 01:21 PM   #265
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Not an "enemy" more of a hostile foreign power.

If you doubt that Russia and Putin are doing everything they can to undermine and ultimately destroy western democracy, in particular US democracy, then you are a fool.... one of the same kinds of fools who pursued appeasement with Hitler, and didn't want to push forward into Iraq and take out Saddam at the end of Desert Storm.
THIS.What makes Putin dangerous is he has found "Useful Idiots" on both sides of the political spectrum ...something the Soviet Union never could have done. Still amazed on how many on the Left..particulary in Europe seem to be Putin supporters, probably thinking he is somehow still a "Marxist At Heart".
We have a couple of examples who post here.
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Old 24th January 2020, 01:22 PM   #266
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Not an "enemy" more of a hostile foreign power.
Absolutely.
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Old 24th January 2020, 01:23 PM   #267
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
Schiff and Nadler are both lying about the Hamilton quote. It was not about impeachment. It was lifted from a letter to George Washington about tax policy five years after the Constitution was adopted. He did discuss the possibility of a monarchy developing, but that was poo-pooed by Washington.

"He (Hamilton) does, however, warn that, "the only path to a subversion of the republican system of the Country is, by flattering the prejudices of the people, and exciting their jealousies and apprehensions," to throw affairs into anarchy and drive citizens into, "the arms of monarchy for repose and security."

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/sek...eachment-trial
Foxnews….really?????

More and more I think we are being trolled here.
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Old 24th January 2020, 01:32 PM   #268
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Looks like some of the claims by Parnas have had some independent verification:

From: https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/reco...ry?id=68506437
A recording reviewed by ABC News appears to capture President Donald Trump telling associates he wanted the then-U.S. ambassador to Ukraine Marie Yovanovitch fired while speaking at a small gathering that included Lev Parnas and Igor Fruman...
...
On the recording, it appears the two Giuliani associates are telling Trump that the U.S. ambassador has been bad-mouthing him, which leads directly to the apparent remarks by the president. The recording was made by Fruman, according to sources familiar with the tape.


Assuming it is authentic, it certainly destroys Trump's claims that he didn't know Parnas at all. (Well, whatever credibility Trump had on the matter.... the constant stream of Parnas/Trump pictures was a pretty good indication that Parnas was not just some random guy that Trump took a selfie with.)
I'd liken this to Republicans and the Stormy Daniels affair. If pressed the rank-and-file will concede the Trump lied and there WAS a relationship. They just don't care.

Trump's gangsterism/indiscretions can be forgiven because he's going to drain the swamp, build the wall, march to save babies, etc.
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Old 24th January 2020, 01:37 PM   #269
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Quote:
Schiff and Nadler are both lying about the Hamilton quote. It was not about impeachment. It was lifted from a letter to George Washington about tax policy five years after the Constitution was adopted. He did discuss the possibility of a monarchy developing, but that was poo-pooed by Washington.

"He (Hamilton) does, however, warn that, "the only path to a subversion of the republican system of the Country is, by flattering the prejudices of the people, and exciting their jealousies and apprehensions," to throw affairs into anarchy and drive citizens into, "the arms of monarchy for repose and security."

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/sek...eachment-trial
Foxnews….really?????

More and more I think we are being trolled here.
As much as fox news deserves criticism, I think the article is a little bit less critical of the Democrats than brooklynbaby really thinks. I suspect he just read the headline and first few lines and stopped.

The article contains the following passage:
While Sekulow is correct that Hamilton's message was not about impeachment, Schiff and Nadler were careful to note in their remarks that the Hamilton quote was about the type of leader that would be most harmful to the American government and not about impeachment. "The framers worried then, as we worry today, that a leader might come to power not to carry out the will of the people that he was elected to represent, but to pursue his own interests," Schiff said Wednesday. "A fear that a president would subvert our democracy by abusing the awesome power of his office for his own personal or political gain."

So in other words, brooklynbaby's own source points out that the comments by Schiff and Nadler were not lies, and the only one who is practicing deception is republican Sekulow, who is ignoring the context of their statements.
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Old 24th January 2020, 01:44 PM   #270
Armitage72
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Looks like some of the claims by Parnas have had some independent verification:

From: https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/reco...ry?id=68506437
[i]A recording reviewed by ABC News appears to capture President Donald Trump telling associates he wanted the then-U.S. ambassador to Ukraine Marie Yovanovitch fired while speaking at a small gathering that included Lev Parnas and Igor Fruman...
...

She's lucky. Given the people he's associated with in the past, telling them "Get rid of her" and "Take her out" could have had very different results.
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Old 24th January 2020, 01:53 PM   #271
pgwenthold
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
I'd liken this to Republicans and the Stormy Daniels affair. If pressed the rank-and-file will concede the Trump lied and there WAS a relationship. They just don't care.
Well he wasn't President yet, so it's ok
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Old 24th January 2020, 01:54 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
She's lucky. Given the people he's associated with in the past, telling them "Get rid of her" and "Take her out" could have had very different results.
That's the talk of Twitter right now. "People are saying" that for a guy who is well-known for having the catch phrase "you're fired", saying "Take her out" is a tad ominous. I don't, personally, give Trump that much credit. I don't think the Orange puckered anus has that much thought process.
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Old 24th January 2020, 02:07 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
As much as fox news deserves criticism, I think the article is a little bit less critical of the Democrats than brooklynbaby really thinks. I suspect he just read the headline and first few lines and stopped.

The article contains the following passage:
While Sekulow is correct that Hamilton's message was not about impeachment, Schiff and Nadler were careful to note in their remarks that the Hamilton quote was about the type of leader that would be most harmful to the American government and not about impeachment. "The framers worried then, as we worry today, that a leader might come to power not to carry out the will of the people that he was elected to represent, but to pursue his own interests," Schiff said Wednesday. "A fear that a president would subvert our democracy by abusing the awesome power of his office for his own personal or political gain."

So in other words, brooklynbaby's own source points out that the comments by Schiff and Nadler were not lies, and the only one who is practicing deception is republican Sekulow, who is ignoring the context of their statements.
It's why despite being against almost everything that Thomas Jefferson stood for, Hamilton slammed fellow New Yorker Aaron Burr when it came down to the two of them becoming President.

He said it is better that the President be of different principles than your own than be absent of principles as Burr was.
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Old 24th January 2020, 02:11 PM   #274
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Looks like some of the claims by Parnas have had some independent verification:

From: https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/reco...ry?id=68506437
A recording reviewed by ABC News appears to capture President Donald Trump telling associates he wanted the then-U.S. ambassador to Ukraine Marie Yovanovitch fired while speaking at a small gathering that included Lev Parnas and Igor Fruman...
...
On the recording, it appears the two Giuliani associates are telling Trump that the U.S. ambassador has been bad-mouthing him, which leads directly to the apparent remarks by the president. The recording was made by Fruman, according to sources familiar with the tape.


Assuming it is authentic, it certainly destroys Trump's claims that he didn't know Parnas at all. (Well, whatever credibility Trump had on the matter.... the constant stream of Parnas/Trump pictures was a pretty good indication that Parnas was not just some random guy that Trump took a selfie with.)
Maybe? Considering he had that outburst a year before he fired the person he could have fired at that time, it is difficult to out much stock in the significance of the conversation.
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Old 24th January 2020, 02:12 PM   #275
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So an awkward moment for Trump's legal team...

During the hearings, a member of the Democrats talked about "FOIA (Freedom of Information Act) lawsuits", and how they are no substitute for proper congressional oversight.

Trump defender Jay Sekulow seized on the comment, but misunderstood, thinking the speaker said "Lawyer lawsuits". He then began a rant:

“Lawyer lawsuits? We’re talking about the impeachment of a president of the United States, duly elected, and the members, the managers, are complaining about lawyer lawsuits?” Sekulow said. “The Constitution allows lawyer lawsuits.”

Umm, first of all, nobody used the term 'lawyer lawsuits' (except Sekulow).

Secondly, nobody was suggesting FOIA lawsuits (or 'lawyer lawsuits') don't have their place, just that they aren't as effective in proving congressional oversight.

ETA: Sorry, forgot link.

http://www.abajournal.com/news/artic...-foia-lawsuits
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Last edited by Segnosaur; 24th January 2020 at 02:20 PM.
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Old 24th January 2020, 02:14 PM   #276
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I don't know if I read it here or elsewhere, but there was the scenario, something like, suppose someone got elected President and then moved to a cabin in Montana, and spent the whole day sitting around in his underwear watching TV, by the GOP arguments, he couldn't be impeached.

It makes it clear how silly the claim that you can't impeach if no law is broken really is.
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Old 24th January 2020, 02:14 PM   #277
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Maybe? Considering he had that outburst a year before he fired the person he could have fired at that time, it is difficult to out much stock in the significance of the conversation.
No, it's not difficult at all. Well, maybe for you.

It's been well documented from previous employees of Trump's that his staff has kept him in check in a bunch of different situations. That's why the those people aren't there anymore, because he got sick of them talking him out of things.

The ambassador was extremely well respected among her peers, and I have no doubts that they put it off as long as they could.
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Old 24th January 2020, 02:15 PM   #278
pgwenthold
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
So an awkward moment for Trump's legal team...

During the hearings, a member of the Democrats talked about "FOIA (Freedom of Information Act) lawsuits", and how they are no substitute for proper congressional oversight.

Trump defender Jay Sekulow seized on the comment, but misunderstood, thinking the speaker said "Lawyer lawsuits". He then began a rant:

“Lawyer lawsuits? We’re talking about the impeachment of a president of the United States, duly elected, and the members, the managers, are complaining about lawyer lawsuits?” Sekulow said. “The Constitution allows lawyer lawsuits.”

Umm, first of all, nobody used the term 'lawyer lawsuits' (except Sekulow).

Secondly, nobody was suggesting FOIA lawsuits (or 'lawyer lawsuits') don't have their place, just that they aren't as effective in proving congressional oversight.
Where is the judge in this situation? Did he correct the record?
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Old 24th January 2020, 02:16 PM   #279
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Where is the judge in this situation? Did he correct the record?
The judge is just for show. He doesn't have any actual power or oversight.
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Old 24th January 2020, 02:17 PM   #280
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
Schiff and Nadler are both lying about the Hamilton quote. It was not about impeachment. It was lifted from a letter to George Washington about tax policy five years after the Constitution was adopted. He did discuss the possibility of a monarchy developing, but that was poo-pooed by Washington.

"He (Hamilton) does, however, warn that, "the only path to a subversion of the republican system of the Country is, by flattering the prejudices of the people, and exciting their jealousies and apprehensions," to throw affairs into anarchy and drive citizens into, "the arms of monarchy for repose and security."

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/sek...eachment-trial
You didn't read beyond the headline, did you? Towards the end:

Originally Posted by Fox News
While Sekulow is correct that Hamilton's message was not about impeachment, Schiff and Nadler were careful to note in their remarks that the Hamilton quote was about the type of leader that would be most harmful to the American government and not about impeachment.
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