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Tags Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez , democratic party

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Old 27th January 2020, 08:03 PM   #1
Venom
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Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez: "We don't have a left party in the U.S."

AOC declares the Democratic Party "center-conservative" with strong words against her Democratic Party bosses who have been demanding she pay her dues.

Background
In March 2019, the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee (DCCC) announced that it would no longer work with consultants who are advising candidates who challenge Democratic incumbents.
Progressive groups like the Justice Democrats and Brand New Congress had been working the past few years to primary incumbent Democrats in safe blue districts.

On January 10 Ocasio-Cortez tweeted:

Quote:
I give quite a bit to fellow Dems - we’ve fundraised over $300,000 for others (more than my “dues”), w/ over 50% going to swing seats.

DCCC made clear that they will blacklist any org that helps progressive candidates like me. I can choose not to fund that kind of exclusion.

Last edited by Venom; 27th January 2020 at 08:04 PM.
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Old 27th January 2020, 08:18 PM   #2
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A pretty obvious statement by AOC. What is called left in the US would be right of centre in most parts of the world.
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Old 27th January 2020, 09:01 PM   #3
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It's been funny watching people howling about this one. Truth is, we technically do have a left party, but it's basically the DSA - a party of very limited importance. Truth is that the dems, overall, are barely left of center overall, and the GOP is mostly comprised of far right radicals who don't respect democracy, tradition (thus, not at all "conservative"), or the rights of those who don't fall outside of a narrow range.
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Old 27th January 2020, 10:18 PM   #4
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AOC doesn't sound the brightest bulb on the xmas tree
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Old 27th January 2020, 10:37 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
AOC doesn't sound the brightest bulb on the xmas tree
I'd say quite a bit brighter than most people in the Democratic Party.
And brighter than 90% of the GOP.

Even Steve Bannon praises her strategy.
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Old 27th January 2020, 10:41 PM   #6
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It's like she's still a college student, silly ideology and all.
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Old 27th January 2020, 11:34 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
AOC doesn't sound the brightest bulb on the xmas tree
Mate, seriously?

Like her or dislike her, she's clearly a very smart person.

Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
It's like she's still a college student, silly ideology and all.
You live in USA and accuse AOC of having silly ideology?

You must be very happy with Trump, then.
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Old 27th January 2020, 11:34 PM   #8
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Until AOC came along, I never imagined that such a broad range of puerile commentary could be directed at a single person.
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Old 27th January 2020, 11:54 PM   #9
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My 15 year old nephew is a smart person.

I still wouldn't want him running the country.

The one we have is dim enough thanks
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 27th January 2020, 11:56 PM   #10
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Actually should have said the one we have is vacuous enough.
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 28th January 2020, 01:10 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Until AOC came along, I never imagined that such a broad range of puerile commentary could be directed at a single person.
Quite horrifying that the two most vilified people on the planet are a teenage girl and a 20-something woman.

You'd almost think their detractors were showing fear.
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Old 28th January 2020, 01:33 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Quite horrifying that the two most vilified people on the planet are a teenage girl and a 20-something woman.



You'd almost think their detractors were showing fear.
Would imagine it is Ivanka going by this place.
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 28th January 2020, 03:53 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
AOC doesn't sound the brightest bulb on the xmas tree
Maybe, but in this case she's right.
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Old 28th January 2020, 04:05 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
The one we have is dim enough thanks
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Actually should have said the one we have is vacuous enough.
Why not both?
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Old 28th January 2020, 04:06 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
My 15 year old nephew is a smart person.

I still wouldn't want him running the country.

The one we have is dim enough thanks
Do you have any idea who AOC is and what she represents? Of course you don’t.
Edited by Agatha:  Edited for rule 0. Consider using the ignore function if you cannot remain civil to a particular poster.
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Last edited by Agatha; 30th January 2020 at 02:05 PM.
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Old 28th January 2020, 04:52 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Do you have any idea who AOC is and what she represents? Of course you don’t.
Edited by Agatha:  Edited to comply with moderated post
...and even if AOC were exactly as cullennz describes, in this case she is exactly correct - the United States does not have a mainstream left wing party.

The Democratic Party is to the left of the GOP but by the standards of most other liberal democracies it is a centre or centre-right party with even its extreme left wing firebrands being considered pretty mainstream by non-US standards.

Last edited by Agatha; 30th January 2020 at 02:06 PM.
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Old 28th January 2020, 05:33 AM   #17
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She is saying that the DCCC should not take efforts to stop people from beating members of the DCCC. This has nothing to do with left politics.
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Old 28th January 2020, 05:52 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Until AOC came along, I never imagined that such a broad range of puerile commentary could be directed at a single person.
lol, I guess you didn't know Trump was president
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Old 28th January 2020, 05:58 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
lol, I guess you didn't know Trump was president
You're right, Trump does direct a lot of puerile commentary at various individuals.
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Old 28th January 2020, 06:02 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
...and even if AOC were exactly as cullennz describes, in this case she is exactly correct - the United States does not have a mainstream left wing party.

The Democratic Party is to the left of the GOP but by the standards of most other liberal democracies it is a centre or centre-right party with even its extreme left wing firebrands being considered pretty mainstream by non-US standards.
That isn’t the relevant standard. In relation to American voters, the Democrats are left wing. That is the only important metric of such things. If AOC is complaining that Americans themselves aren’t sufficiently left wing, well, she can go suck eggs.
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Old 28th January 2020, 06:06 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Quite horrifying that the two most vilified people on the planet are a teenage girl and a 20-something woman.
You forgot Ilhan Omar - and honestly, if you've been following who conservatives freak out over, you'd have expected this. Young women, and especially young women of color, are their favorite targets for unjustified ridicule.
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Old 28th January 2020, 06:07 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That isn’t the relevant standard. In relation to American voters, the Democrats are left wing.
Are they, though?
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Old 28th January 2020, 06:18 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Are they, though?

Actually, maybe we should just get some parameters to define this. I often hear over the internet that the Democratic Party is right wing by international standards while constantly hearing that it is basically Marxist from people I have to interact with in real life.


So, what does define a party as left wing? What defines the American Democratic Party as right wing? What defines right wing?
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Old 28th January 2020, 07:32 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That isn’t the relevant standard.
I think it is, not least because it points out where the US currently sits globally.

If the two candidates in an election are Joe Stalin and Pol Pot then I think it's fair to point out that there isn't a candidate who supports human rights rather than trying to determine which of the tyrants has the slightly less worse position, declare them the "human rights candidate" and say there's no need for a candidate who is in favour of human rights.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
In relation to American voters, the Democrats are left wing. That is the only important metric of such things.
Not if their opinions on various subjects ranging from universal healthcare, taxation of the richest in society, environmental protections, gun control, a woman's right to choose and so forth are considered.

On individual issues, people in the US are comparatively centrist.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
If AOC is complaining that Americans themselves aren’t sufficiently left wing, well, she can go suck eggs.
No, she's complaining that there doesn't seem to be a political party which has policies which are sufficiently left wing to give those Americans who have centre, or left of centre, a party to vote for.
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Old 28th January 2020, 07:37 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
Actually, maybe we should just get some parameters to define this. I often hear over the internet that the Democratic Party is right wing by international standards while constantly hearing that it is basically Marxist from people I have to interact with in real life.


So, what does define a party as left wing? What defines the American Democratic Party as right wing? What defines right wing?
In the context of Western democracies, left wing parties tend to be in favour of policies which seek to:
  • reduce income and wealth inequality
  • provide high quality public services
  • enhance the welfare safety net for those in greatest need
  • support workers' rights
  • promote environmental protections
  • mitigate the worst effects of climate change
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Old 28th January 2020, 07:44 AM   #26
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If you want to solve the big problems of the world, Libertarianism won't get you there.
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Old 28th January 2020, 07:50 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
If you want to solve the big problems of the world, Libertarianism won't get you there.
We just disagree on what counts as a solution.
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Old 28th January 2020, 08:00 AM   #28
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TIL the DCCC demands representatives cough up a quarter million dollars in 'dues'.

Are these annual dues, or lifetime, or what?

How would a freshman rep have a quarter mil laying around, in addition to their other expenses etc? Seems like a shakedown that could not reasonably be met by many.
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Old 28th January 2020, 08:06 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
TIL the DCCC demands representatives cough up a quarter million dollars in 'dues'.

Are these annual dues, or lifetime, or what?

How would a freshman rep have a quarter mil laying around, in addition to their other expenses etc? Seems like a shakedown that could not reasonably be met by many.
We're talking about campaign fundraising. That's pretty much all these congress members really do these days, is arrange fundraisers and worry about money.

AOC doesn't want to give money to the DCCC because they have taken an anti-progressive stance when it comes to Democratic primary challengers. Given that AOC got her seat doing exactly that, her reluctance to support such a policy should not be shocking.

AOC is doing good work trying to clear some of the rot out of the Democratic Party machine.
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Old 28th January 2020, 08:10 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
We just disagree on what counts as a solution.
survival of the species trumps survival of arbitrary norms of individuality as far as I am concerned.
Sue me.
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Old 28th January 2020, 08:14 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
Actually, maybe we should just get some parameters to define this. I often hear over the internet that the Democratic Party is right wing by international standards while constantly hearing that it is basically Marxist from people I have to interact with in real life.


So, what does define a party as left wing? What defines the American Democratic Party as right wing? What defines right wing?
Well, in the case of Finland our conservative party favours universal single payer health care, does not want to dramatically cut our ca 45% tax burden, supports most environmental regulations and is in favour of the Nordic welfare model (admittedly wanting some cuts here and there), supports free higher education and defends the rights of sexual minorities and is enthusiastic about work based immigration etc. In the US terms many of them would be totally fine with Warren and most would be slightly to the left of Hillary Clinton. And this is the conservatives "True Finns", the national radicals, are in economic terms to the left of the conservatives but are more socially conservative and against basically all but lilywhite immigration.

Last edited by llwyd; 28th January 2020 at 08:17 AM.
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Old 28th January 2020, 08:22 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
We're talking about campaign fundraising. That's pretty much all these congress members really do these days, is arrange fundraisers and worry about money.

AOC doesn't want to give money to the DCCC because they have taken an anti-progressive stance when it comes to Democratic primary challengers. Given that AOC got her seat doing exactly that, her reluctance to support such a policy should not be shocking.

AOC is doing good work trying to clear some of the rot out of the Democratic Party machine.
Yeah, I got all that.

What I was remarking on was the formality of the DCCC having a set amount euphemized as 'dues', and the staggeringly high amount.
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Old 28th January 2020, 08:23 AM   #33
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Question

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
We're talking about campaign fundraising. That's pretty much all these congress members really do these days, is arrange fundraisers and worry about money.

AOC doesn't want to give money to the DCCC because they have taken an anti-progressive stance when it comes to Democratic primary challengers. Given that AOC got her seat doing exactly that, her reluctance to support such a policy should not be shocking.

AOC is doing good work trying to clear some of the rot out of the Democratic Party machine.
Her position is stupid. She wants the organization to not help members defeat not members.
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Old 28th January 2020, 08:45 AM   #34
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Its a silly and fairly vacuous trope of the left from a fairly silly and vacuous politician of the left, it shouldn't surprise anyone that she would say such a thing. I will give her credit though, she is a much more adept politician than I initially thought. The real issue is that left and right just don't map the same in the US as Europe.

Its pretty common in Europe for the far right nationalist parties to have fairly progressive economic policies where both mainstream parties in the US had solidly liberal economic platforms until very recently. Also, until relatively recently, the US parties were not that ideologically consistent and really amalgams of regional parties.

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Until AOC came along, I never imagined that such a broad range of puerile commentary could be directed at a single person.
Must not have been paying much attention.

Last edited by ahhell; 28th January 2020 at 08:49 AM.
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Old 28th January 2020, 09:48 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Her position is stupid. She wants the organization to not help members defeat not members.
That's not her position. Her position is she doesn't want to pay that organization or help them fund raise. It's a completely logical position to hold.
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Old 28th January 2020, 09:54 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I think it is, not least because it points out where the US currently sits globally.
It is, and your own post actually concedes that point:

Quote:
No, she's complaining that there doesn't seem to be a political party which has policies which are sufficiently left wing to give those Americans who have centre, or left of centre, a party to vote for.
She's talking about who Americans can vote for. So Americans are the proper reference, not the world as a whole. And there is a party which is definitely to the left of the center of American voters.

But you did make a mistake here, and an important one: we don't actually vote for parties. We vote for candidates, and while the candidates may belong to a party, they are still individual candidates. And there can be significant differences between candidates within a party. The real heart of AOC's complaint seems to be that there aren't enough far left candidates within the Democratic party. But there's a reason for that.
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Old 28th January 2020, 10:04 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
It is, and your own post actually concedes that point:
You may think that it does, but it doesn't.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
She's talking about who Americans can vote for. So Americans are the proper reference, not the world as a whole. And there is a party which is definitely to the left of the center of American voters.
There is ? Which one ?

The two main parties in the US are both right wing parties and also both have platforms which appear to be to the right of the views expressed by US voters on specific issues.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
But you did make a mistake here, and an important one: we don't actually vote for parties. We vote for candidates, and while the candidates may belong to a party, they are still individual candidates. And there can be significant differences between candidates within a party. The real heart of AOC's complaint seems to be that there aren't enough far left candidates within the Democratic party. But there's a reason for that.
Yes and no. Some people may vote for candidates, many others simply vote for a party. Whilst some people may vote based on a candidate's position on the issues, many others simply vote for a party or base their decision on the overall party platform - because that's what's likely to make into law.
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Old 28th January 2020, 10:10 AM   #38
plague311
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
But you did make a mistake here, and an important one: we don't actually vote for parties.
Complete bull ****. You might not vote for a party, you might vote for a candidate, but there are many, many people that say "Vote Blue no Matter Who" or "Vote Red insert_slogan". So there's no mistake, just your strawman.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
We vote for candidates, and while the candidates may belong to a party, they are still individual candidates. And there can be significant differences between candidates within a party.
This is just semantic quibbling in an effort to sound right.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The real heart of AOC's complaint seems to be that there aren't enough far left candidates within the Democratic party. But there's a reason for that.
Because the U.S. slowly has been drug to the right of center? I'm about as American as they come and there is no left wing party for me. Especially in North Da ******* Kota. You seem to want to speak for all of America, I'd request that you don't speak on behalf of me, as a fellow American.
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Old 28th January 2020, 10:14 AM   #39
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Is the democratic party really not left? Let's consider some of the ideal from the platform....

Quote:
[We] will continue to fight for dynamic and progressive programs which, among other things, will:Stimulate improved job safety of our workers, through assistance to the States, employees and employers;

Continue and further perfect its programs of assistance to the millions of workers with special employment problems, such as older workers, handicapped workers, members of minority groups, and migratory workers;

Strengthen and improve the Federal-State Employment Service and improve the effectiveness of the unemployment insurance system;

Protect by law, the assets of employee welfare and benefit plans so that workers who are the beneficiaries can be assured of their rightful benefits;

Assure equal pay for equal work regardless of Sex;

Clarify and strengthen the eight-hour laws for the benefit of workers who are subject to federal wage standards on Federal and Federally-assisted construction, and maintain and continue the vigorous administration of the Federal prevailing minimum wage law for public supply contracts;

Extend the protection of the Federal minimum wage laws to as many more workers as is possible and practicable;

Continue to fight for the elimination of discrimination in employment because of race, creed, color, national origin, ancestry or sex;

Provide assistance to improve the economic conditions of areas faced with persistent and substantial unemployment.
More
Quote:
We are proud of and shall continue our far-reaching and sound advances in matters of basic human needs — expansion of social security — broadened coverage in unemployment insurance — improved housing — and better health protection for all our people. We are determined that our government remain warmly responsive to the urgent social and economic problems of our people.We shall continue to seek extension and perfection of a sound social security system.
Quote:
Revise and improve the Taft-Hartley Act so as to protect more effectively the rights of labor unions, management, the individual worker, and the public. The protection of the right of workers to organize into unions and to bargain collectively is the firm and permanent policy of [democrats]
OK, that last part tips off the punchline. This isn't actually the platform of the modern Democratic party. It's the platform of the Eisenhower administration in 1956. Lots of federal assistance and protecting (and expanding) social security and unions. But put in a national healthcare system, and it could be a reasonable modern democratic version. I think the national healthcare came more with Nixon in 1972.
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Old 28th January 2020, 10:16 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
The two main parties in the US are both right wing parties and also both have platforms which appear to be to the right of the views expressed by US voters on specific issues.
You are mistaken. I suspect you're going to try to point to some polls, but, well...
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