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Tags Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez , democratic party

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Old 28th January 2020, 10:16 AM   #41
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I grew up in AOC's district and have tons of family that still live within. I can say with certainty that in my long life no congressperson ever represented the interests of her constituents better than AOC has thus far.
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Old 28th January 2020, 10:19 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
That's not her position. Her position is she doesn't want to pay that organization or help them fund raise. It's a completely logical position to hold.
She doesn't want to fundraise because they have the audacity to help their members.

Quote:
DCCC made clear that they will blacklist any org that helps progressive candidates like me. I can choose not to fund that kind of exclusion.
She doesn't want to fundraise for them because she disagrees with the objective.....of advancing the interest of DCCC members.

Next, she will be announcing she wont do anything for the NFLPA as they refuse to provide legal services to MLB players.
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Old 28th January 2020, 10:19 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
She's talking about who Americans can vote for. So Americans are the proper reference, not the world as a whole.
Wait a second. While it's a reasonable conclusion, it by no way follows necessarily.
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Old 28th January 2020, 10:23 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by grunion View Post
I grew up in AOC's district and have tons of family that still live within. I can say with certainty that in my long life no congressperson ever represented the interests of her constituents better than AOC has thus far.
How so?
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Old 28th January 2020, 10:27 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Complete bull ****. You might not vote for a party, you might vote for a candidate, but there are many, many people that say "Vote Blue no Matter Who" or "Vote Red insert_slogan". So there's no mistake, just your strawman.
They're still voting for an individual candidate, even if they're only doing so on the basis of party identification. That's how voting works in the US.

Quote:
This is just semantic quibbling in an effort to sound right.
No, this is a semantic quibbling on your part in an effort to not concede that I am right.

Quote:
Because the U.S. slowly has been drug to the right of center?
What center? The global center? There's no reason our center needs to align with the global center. The difference may be of interest in comparing different nations, but since that wasn't AOC's purpose, it doesn't matter.

Quote:
I'm about as American as they come
Ok. That doesn't say much of relevance here, though.

Quote:
and there is no left wing party for me.
There is no party which is far enough to the left for your tastes, which isn't quite the same thing. You aren't a centrist, not even close. There are right wingers who think there isn't a party far enough to the right for them. That doesn't mean the Republican party isn't right wing.

Quote:
Especially in North Da ******* Kota.
And how far to the right do you think the Republican party is in, say, California or New York?

Quote:
You seem to want to speak for all of America, I'd request that you don't speak on behalf of me, as a fellow American.
I'm no more trying to speak for all of America than you are. I'm sure as hell not trying to speak on your behalf.
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Old 28th January 2020, 10:30 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
They're still voting for an individual candidate, even if they're only doing so on the basis of party identification.
If you vote for a person only as a way to vote for that person's party then you're voting for the party, not the person.

Geez, that's so obvious I can't believe I had to write that. I feel dumber for posting this.
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Old 28th January 2020, 10:32 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
A pretty obvious statement by AOC. What is called left in the US would be right of centre in most parts of the world.
I always cringe when I hear statements like this.
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Old 28th January 2020, 10:35 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
The two main parties in the US are both right wing parties and also both have platforms which appear to be to the right of the views expressed by US voters on specific issues.
Add US politics to the list of things you don't know much about.
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Old 28th January 2020, 10:40 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
The real issue is that left and right just don't map the same in the US as Europe.
Finally. Someone gets it. The "left/right" paradigm is meaningless anyway, or at very best outdated. If we're going by immigration policy the US is waaaay "to the left" of Europe and the rest of the world.

Last edited by Baylor; 28th January 2020 at 11:00 AM. Reason: typo
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Old 28th January 2020, 10:45 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That isn’t the relevant standard. In relation to American voters, the Democrats are left wing. That is the only important metric of such things. If AOC is complaining that Americans themselves aren’t sufficiently left wing, well, she can go suck eggs.

It's only irrelevant if you want it to be. I find it 100% relevant to pointing out that the political landscape in America has shifted dangerously far to the right. I'm aware that you approve of that shift.
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Old 28th January 2020, 10:50 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
She doesn't want to fundraise because they have the audacity to help their members.

She doesn't want to fundraise for them because she disagrees with the objective.....of advancing the interest of DCCC members.

Next, she will be announcing she wont do anything for the NFLPA as they refuse to provide legal services to MLB players.
Bob, please. NFL and the MLB aren't the same sport. The politicians she supports are running as Dems, not as Independents or Republican. They are on the same team, in the same sport. To use an analogy, which is what I ******* despise, this is the equivalent of using a backup QB over the starting QB. It happens, and sometimes they're even better. This is the last I'll discuss this with you as I know where it'll end.
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Old 28th January 2020, 10:51 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
I always cringe when I hear statements like this.
Why?
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Old 28th January 2020, 10:58 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Why?
Because it's a cringeworthy statement.
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Old 28th January 2020, 11:03 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Why?
I cringe because everyone hops on the same old merry go round every single time. Do they think we've forgotten since approximately yesterday when it also came up?

Doesn't anyone have anything new to say?
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Old 28th January 2020, 11:09 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Add US politics to the list of things you don't know much about.
Nope, I know plenty about it.

I know enough that there have been plenty of polls where a majority of American voters are in favour of individual left-leaning policies.
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Old 28th January 2020, 11:09 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
In the context of Western democracies, left wing parties tend to be in favour of policies which seek to:
  • reduce income and wealth inequality
  • provide high quality public services
  • enhance the welfare safety net for those in greatest need
  • support workers' rights
  • promote environmental protections
  • mitigate the worst effects of climate change

Well, the Democratic Party is for all of that so I'm still confused on how they are center, center right, or right.



Originally Posted by llwyd View Post
Well, in the case of Finland our conservative party favours universal single payer health care, does not want to dramatically cut our ca 45% tax burden, supports most environmental regulations and is in favour of the Nordic welfare model (admittedly wanting some cuts here and there), supports free higher education and defends the rights of sexual minorities and is enthusiastic about work based immigration etc. In the US terms many of them would be totally fine with Warren and most would be slightly to the left of Hillary Clinton. And this is the conservatives "True Finns", the national radicals, are in economic terms to the left of the conservatives but are more socially conservative and against basically all but lilywhite immigration.

I might then argue that you just don't have a conservative party then but several left parties with one of them pretending to be right wing, and another that is left but also racist.

Perhaps an interesting exercise is to find out how many political parties in Europe match up with the Republicans and their ethos of:
  • Privatization of everything.
  • The poor are being punished by God so no one is supposed to help them.
  • Rape the land, screw the animals, do nothing about climate change since the "devout" will be saved by the Rapture. Speaking of....
  • Create the proper Middle East cluster of F to help usher in the End Times.
  • Women are supposed to be silent homemakers with zero agency pumping out white babies or doing whatever white men tell them.
  • Laws should be derived from the Bible.
  • Torture and concentration camps are awesome!
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Old 28th January 2020, 11:10 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Finally. Someone gets it. The "left/right" paradigm is meaningless anyway, or at very best outdated. If we're going by immigration policy the US is waaaay "to the left" of Europe and the rest of the world.
Oh, you're going to have to provide some sort of evidence to support that ridiculous assertion.
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Old 28th January 2020, 11:12 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Doesn't anyone have anything new to say?


If people aren't listening to the old things then they are still worth repeating.
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Old 28th January 2020, 11:13 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
lol, I guess you didn't know Trump was president
Prurile commentary is too good for that fascist Sierra Omega Bravo.
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Old 28th January 2020, 11:14 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Nope, I know plenty about it.

I know enough that there have been plenty of polls where a majority of American voters are in favour of individual left-leaning policies.
Called it.
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Old 28th January 2020, 11:15 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Because it's a cringeworthy statement.
That's circular.

Why is it cringeworthy? Because you disagree with it?
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Old 28th January 2020, 11:17 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post

Actually, it was your claim. You haven't "called" anything until you back up your claim that said polls involved leading questions.
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Old 28th January 2020, 11:17 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
Well, the Democratic Party is for all of that so I'm still confused on how they are center, center right, or right.
Not if their policies are anything to go by.
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Old 28th January 2020, 11:18 AM   #64
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I get that the Democratic Party of the USA is not a far left party by European standards.

They are not the only game in town if the Republicans are too far right for one's tastes.

America has a socialist party and a communist party that one could vote for.

Why is AOC acting like the Socialist Party and the Communist Party don't exist here in the States? Jill Stein is running for 2020 again is she not?

This seems to be more about AOC trying to move the Democratic party farther to the left that the Democratic establishment is comfortable with, than there being no real left wing choice in the USA.

If the Democrats are too far to the right for you, I am sure Jill Stein would love to have your vote. And if enough people started voting for the Socialist party, the Democratic party would start to move to the left in response.
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Last edited by Tormac; 28th January 2020 at 11:20 AM. Reason: me gammer is gud
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Old 28th January 2020, 11:18 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That isn’t the relevant standard. In relation to American voters, the Democrats are left wing. That is the only important metric of such things. If AOC is complaining that Americans themselves aren’t sufficiently left wing, well, she can go suck eggs.
Edited by kmortis:  Removed to comply with Rule 12/0
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Old 28th January 2020, 11:18 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
It's only irrelevant if you want it to be. I find it 100% relevant to pointing out that the political landscape in America has shifted dangerously far to the right. I'm aware that you approve of that shift.
Except it isn't even true. We haven't shifted much, and certainly not uniformly to the right. Gay marriage is a thing now, and it's basically accepted by the public. That's really recent move to the left. Even Obama was opposed to it at the beginning of his first term. And you won't find any Democratic presidential candidates talking about illegal immigration the way Bill Clinton talked about it.
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Old 28th January 2020, 11:22 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
They're still voting for an individual candidate, even if they're only doing so on the basis of party identification. That's how voting works in the US.
Can you identify the countries that only have the party on their ballot? Is the voting in the US different than the voting in the countries it's being compared to? The UK? Germany? I literally don't know, but I was under the impression that most, if not all, first world countries voted for the individual and not the party. I'm open to being wrong.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
No, this is a semantic quibbling on your part in an effort to not concede that I am right.
You aren't so I don't need to concede it.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
What center? The global center? There's no reason our center needs to align with the global center. The difference may be of interest in comparing different nations, but since that wasn't AOC's purpose, it doesn't matter.
The center of, say, 50-60 years ago. Would you say that's accurate? Would you say the political parties or ideologies of political parties has shifted to the right over the years? If I could prove it, would you concede this nonsense?
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Old 28th January 2020, 11:25 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Tormac View Post
This seems to be more about AOC trying to move the Democratic party farther to the left that the Democratic establishment is comfortable with, than there being no real left wing choice in the USA.

If the Democrats are too far to the right for you, I am sure Jill Stein would love to have your vote. And if enough people started voting for the Socialist party, the Democratic party would start to move to the left in response.
Jill Stein doesn't represent my political ideology anymore than AOC or the Dems do. This is a false dichotomy, and belongs in the trash.
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Old 28th January 2020, 11:28 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
We just disagree on what counts as a solution.
Libertarians have one universal solution: law of the jungle (ie, who has the most individual power).
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Old 28th January 2020, 11:32 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Oh, you're going to have to provide some sort of evidence to support that ridiculous assertion.
Assuming you define "left" immigration policy as being more open to immigration, its clearly true that the US as more leftists immigration policy than most European countries.

With the exception of Germany, Ireland, and various City-States, the US as significantly larger percentage of its population that is foreign born than most european countries.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ant_population
I'd bet that a large percentage of those immigrants to European countries are also from other European countries.

Easily the worlds largest immigrant population.

The US has unrestricted birth right citizenship, which is basically unheard of in Europe.

I'd also bet that the socio-economic status of immigrants is generally better off in the US too, but that will take more research.

Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
Libertarians have one universal solution: law of the jungle (ie, who has the most individual power).
I wonder if I can do this too? Progressives have one universal solution: law of the rent seeker (ie, who ever can leverage the most state power).
How did I do?

Last edited by ahhell; 28th January 2020 at 11:35 AM.
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Old 28th January 2020, 11:35 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Bob, please. NFL and the MLB aren't the same sport. The politicians she supports are running as Dems, not as Independents or Republican. They are on the same team, in the same sport. To use an analogy, which is what I ******* despise, this is the equivalent of using a backup QB over the starting QB. It happens, and sometimes they're even better. This is the last I'll discuss this with you as I know where it'll end.
DCCC does not equal the Democratic party. It is Congress people and those they recruit to run. Another democrat in a primary is not a member of the DCCC and is running against a member of the DCCC.
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Old 28th January 2020, 11:35 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Some people may vote for candidates, many others simply vote for a party.
It helps when one party, while imperfect, is generally for more equality, more human dignity, more decency and the other are a pack of treasonous, power-hungry demoniacs.
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Old 28th January 2020, 11:36 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
It helps when one party, while imperfect, is generally for more equality, more human dignity, more decency and the other are a pack of treasonous, power-hungry demoniacs.
Coincidentally, this is the position of people in both parties.
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Old 28th January 2020, 11:38 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Jill Stein doesn't represent my political ideology anymore than AOC or the Dems do. This is a false dichotomy, and belongs in the trash.
This says all that needs be said about Jill Stein

https://media3.s-nbcnews.com/j/newsc...b.fit-760w.jpg
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Old 28th January 2020, 11:38 AM   #75
plague311
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
DCCC does not equal the Democratic party. It is Congress people and those they recruit to run. Another democrat in a primary is not a member of the DCCC and is running against a member of the DCCC.
The idea that once you're elected to lead a district there can never be another person from that party to lead that district is stupid. It's up to the voters, and if the DCCC decides they don't want to back either one of those people, or just one of them, that's up to them. I don't care, just like with AOC. If the DCCC does not equal the Democratic Party, then who gives a **** what they have to say?

The DCCC can support who they want and AOC can support whoever she wants. I don't understand why she should have to pay people that don't support her and also don't represent her party.
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Old 28th January 2020, 11:39 AM   #76
ChristianProgressive
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Coincidentally, this is the position of people in both parties.
But only the people in one of those parties is correct.
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"As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be at the coming of the Son of Man." - Matthew 24:37

"And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh." - Luke 21:28
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Old 28th January 2020, 11:40 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Except it isn't even true. We haven't shifted much, and certainly not uniformly to the right. Gay marriage is a thing now, and it's basically accepted by the public. That's really recent move to the left. Even Obama was opposed to it at the beginning of his first term. And you won't find any Democratic presidential candidates talking about illegal immigration the way Bill Clinton talked about it.
Here is a google search of people that don't agree with you. I'd link to them individually, but I think it'll be easier for you to ignore them if I just do it in bulk.
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“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss
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Old 28th January 2020, 11:40 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by Tormac View Post
Why is AOC acting like the Socialist Party and the Communist Party don't exist here in the States?
Because "existing" is not the same thing as being a player on the big stage. The Green party could never be in power because of the way the game is set up.
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Old 28th January 2020, 11:43 AM   #79
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
The idea that once you're elected to lead a district there can never be another person from that party to lead that district is stupid. It's up to the voters, and if the DCCC decides they don't want to back either one of those people, or just one of them, that's up to them. I don't care, just like with AOC. If the DCCC does not equal the Democratic Party, then who gives a **** what they have to say?

The DCCC can support who they want and AOC can support whoever she wants.
You are missing a key part. One is a member of the DCCC, one is not. For the DCCC to start choosing who in the DCCC to not support is not a smart move for the DCCC.

How is the DCCC wanting to protect the interest of existing DCCC members any different than Cortez wanting to protect existing members of her district from AMAZON? In both cases, they favor existing members not being displaced over potential future members.


I will quote her

Quote:
When we talk about bringing jobs to the community, we need to dig deep:
- Has the company promised to hire in the existing community?
- What’s the quality of jobs + how many are promised? Are these jobs low-wage or high wage? Are there benefits? Can people collectively bargain?
The DCCC is actually promising to protect the existing community of representatives.

Last edited by BobTheCoward; 28th January 2020 at 11:45 AM.
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Old 28th January 2020, 11:43 AM   #80
ChristianProgressive
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Here is a google search of people that don't agree with you. I'd link to them individually, but I think it'll be easier for you to ignore them if I just do it in bulk.
The US is currently fighting a riptide of regressive politics against the general trend of history towards progress.
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"As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be at the coming of the Son of Man." - Matthew 24:37

"And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh." - Luke 21:28
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