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Tags Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez , democratic party

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Old 28th January 2020, 11:45 AM   #81
lionking
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Assuming you define "left" immigration policy as being more open to immigration, its clearly true that the US as more leftists immigration policy than most European countries.

With the exception of Germany, Ireland, and various City-States, the US as significantly larger percentage of its population that is foreign born than most european countries.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ant_population
I'd bet that a large percentage of those immigrants to European countries are also from other European countries.

Easily the worlds largest immigrant population.

The US has unrestricted birth right citizenship, which is basically unheard of in Europe.

I'd also bet that the socio-economic status of immigrants is generally better off in the US too, but that will take more research.

I wonder if I can do this too? Progressives have one universal solution: law of the rent seeker (ie, who ever can leverage the most state power).
How did I do?
Cherry picking. 14% foreign born is nothing to write home about. I don’t think immigration policy is a decent measure of left-wingness anyway.
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Old 28th January 2020, 11:47 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Jill Stein doesn't represent my political ideology anymore than AOC or the Dems do. This is a false dichotomy, and belongs in the trash.
Are you suggesting that my statement that there are full on left wing parties belongs in the trash, that the Socialists and Communists belong in the trash, or just that it is stinky trash that the Democrats are not as far to the left as you would like plague311?

I am not suggesting that you personally have to vote for Jill Stein plague311. Nor am I setting up any kind of dichotomy.

I am trying to broaden the discussion of the parties on the left that one could vote for. You may vote for whoever you like, and if you don't like Jill Stein either, maybe the Communist Party USA might better represent your views. Or maybe some other party that I have never heard of.

The point being there are no political limits to political parties left or right wing lean here in the USA. It seems to me to be disingenuous to say that there are no real left wing parties in the USA though, when there are full on Socialist and Communist parties in the USA that one could vote for.
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Old 28th January 2020, 11:52 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
Well, the Democratic Party is for all of that so I'm still confused on how they are center, center right, or right.
The republican party would also say they are for a lot of that too. They want workers to have the right to be free of unions for example, and are all about the right to work.

In terms of effective policy passed democrats are at best slowing the slide to the right. I mean look at the biggest left wing accomplishment the ACA it was thought up by right wing think tanks in the 90's to fight off universal care. So they are about as left wing as those right wing think tanks.

Seriously what party campaigns on increasing the gap between rich and poor?
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Old 28th January 2020, 11:52 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
But only the people in one of those parties is correct.
They say the same thing.

And since decency, dignity, and equality are relative, no one is right.
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Old 28th January 2020, 11:53 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Because "existing" is not the same thing as being a player on the big stage. The Green party could never be in power because of the way the game is set up.
Well I would say you are spot on Belz.

AOC has no interest in joining the Socialist Party of America and trying to co-op it because it has very limited power here in the USA.

AOC would like to take over the Democratic party and move it to be in line with her views because it is the largest party in the USA.

Her statements have more to do with gaining power for her group than a lament that there being no real left wing parties to vote for in the USA.
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Old 28th January 2020, 11:54 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
You are missing a key part. One is a member of the DCCC, one is not. For the DCCC to start choosing who in the DCCC to not support is not a smart move for the DCCC.
I didn't miss this. My argument isn't who the DCCC should support, my argument is that it's not up to the DCCC to tell AOC who she can support, either financially or by throwing her name recognition behind someone. I also think that if her and the DCCC don't have the same views then she shouldn't feel any responsibility to give them money. Sure as **** not the $250k they're asking for...

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
How is the DCCC wanting to protect the interest of existing DCCC members any different than Cortez wanting to protect existing members of her district from AMAZON? In both cases, they favor existing members not being displaced over potential future members.
What? The DCCC didn't vote AOC in, the constituents of her district did, much to the chagrin of the DCCC. She is doing what she feels is best for her district, the people that directly supported and voted for her.

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The DCCC is actually promising to protect the existing community of representatives.
I'm not diving into some bull ****, Amazon wormhole. She doesn't wan some of the existing community of representative to be there. Same party, different reps.

My statement is exactly that AOC deserves the DCCC nothing at all. They've worked against her. The DCCC owes AOC nothing at all, she's working against them. That's it, nothing more needs to be said. Neither are wrong, both are right. They can do whatever they want their own money.
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Old 28th January 2020, 11:54 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Here is a google search of people that don't agree with you. I'd link to them individually, but I think it'll be easier for you to ignore them if I just do it in bulk.
At least half those links seem to be talking about a global shift to the right, not a US-specific one. And they all seem to be opinion pieces. They are rather short on actual data. So yeah, I'll ignore them, because argument ad populum is a fallacy.
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Old 28th January 2020, 11:58 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Tormac View Post
Well I would say you are spot on Belz.

AOC has no interest in joining the Socialist Party of America and trying to co-op it because it has very limited power here in the USA.

AOC would like to take over the Democratic party and move it to be in line with her views because it is the largest party in the USA.

Her statements have more to do with gaining power for her group than a lament that there being no real left wing parties to vote for in the USA.
I mean sure Nixon would be a hard left democrat now but that is pretty meaningless too. I mean that is why Nixon went to china anyway, he was trying to defect pinko bastard.
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Old 28th January 2020, 11:59 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Tormac View Post
I am not suggesting that you personally have to vote for Jill Stein plague311. Nor am I setting up any kind of dichotomy.
Mmmmm, yes you are. You asked why she was complaining about there not being a left wing party when there was Jill Stein and communist\socialist parties. I said I didn't want to choose between the current Dems and Jill Stein, hence the false dichotomy. I have a third option, watch as AOC tries to change the Dem party internally.

Originally Posted by Tormac View Post
I am trying to broaden the discussion of the parties on the left that one could vote for. You may vote for whoever you like, and if you don't like Jill Stein either, maybe the Communist Party USA might better represent your views. Or maybe some other party that I have never heard of.
Or...maybe the Dem party once AOC has helped by introducing\backing\supporting some more socially progressive representatives. Which is what I was saying. I don't have to change when there's a representative that's willing to change the party.

Originally Posted by Tormac View Post
The point being there are no political limits to political parties left or right wing lean here in the USA. It seems to me to be disingenuous to say that there are no real left wing parties in the USA though, when there are full on Socialist and Communist parties in the USA that one could vote for.
Maybe I missed it, I didn't see many people claim there are no real left wing parties. Just that the Democrats are right of center to me, and apparently a few others.
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Old 28th January 2020, 11:59 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
The center of, say, 50-60 years ago. Would you say that's accurate? Would you say the political parties or ideologies of political parties has shifted to the right over the years? If I could prove it, would you concede this nonsense?
Oh, I'm sure it's shifted. It's always shifting, it would be strange if it didn't. And on some issues, it's shifted to the right, but it's also shifted to the left on some issues. I don't see that the shift is dramatic given that time scale, nor do I think it's overwhelmingly to the right.
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Old 28th January 2020, 12:02 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Cherry picking. 14% foreign born is nothing to write home about. I don’t think immigration policy is a decent measure of left-wingness anyway.
Special pleading, also, what would be something to write home about?

Unrelated:

The more significant shift in US politics over the last 50 years has been the polarizing of the parties. The national parties were amalgams of region parties with also sorts of different ideologies. There were conservatives, progressives, and liberals in both parties. It wasn't until the 60s that the parties started sorting more along ideological lines, a process that wasn't complete until the late 80s at the earliest.

Last edited by ahhell; 28th January 2020 at 12:05 PM.
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Old 28th January 2020, 12:02 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
At least half those links seem to be talking about a global shift to the right, not a US-specific one. And they all seem to be opinion pieces. They are rather short on actual data. So yeah, I'll ignore them, because argument ad populum is a fallacy.
What would be considered as actual evidence, Zigg. I don't want to give the impression that carelessly handwaiving **** at leisure isn't fun, but why don't you provide me with some guidance. I'll find something that fits your wheelhouse so that instant dismissal isn't that easy.
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Old 28th January 2020, 12:03 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I didn't miss this. My argument isn't who the DCCC should support, my argument is that it's not up to the DCCC to tell AOC who she can support, either financially or by throwing her name recognition behind someone. I also think that if her and the DCCC don't have the same views then she shouldn't feel any responsibility to give them money. Sure as **** not the $250k they're asking for...



What? The DCCC didn't vote AOC in, the constituents of her district did, much to the chagrin of the DCCC. She is doing what she feels is best for her district, the people that directly supported and voted for her.



I'm not diving into some bull ****, Amazon wormhole. She doesn't wan some of the existing community of representative to be there. Same party, different reps.

My statement is exactly that AOC deserves the DCCC nothing at all. They've worked against her. The DCCC owes AOC nothing at all, she's working against them. That's it, nothing more needs to be said. Neither are wrong, both are right. They can do whatever they want their own money.
I don't object to her choices, either. My issue was her comment being completely oblivious to what the DCCC does is exactly what she does as a representative.
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Old 28th January 2020, 12:11 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
What would be considered as actual evidence, Zigg. I don't want to give the impression that carelessly handwaiving **** at leisure isn't fun, but why don't you provide me with some guidance. I'll find something that fits your wheelhouse so that instant dismissal isn't that easy.
I made fun of polls earlier, because the polls being referenced were single-issue cherry picked polling. It is indeed easy to do polling badly in order to get the results you want. But it's possible to broadly poll people about their political opinions on a wide range of issues. Do that well and you can get a good sense of people's political leanings. Track that over time and you can see how they've changed. But I don't know if anyone has really done that. And in the absence of such good data, it's easy to fool yourself into thinking a narrative that's convenient.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/ar...ht_137048.html
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Old 28th January 2020, 12:12 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by Tormac View Post
Her statements have more to do with gaining power for her group than a lament that there being no real left wing parties to vote for in the USA.
There's a difference?
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Old 28th January 2020, 12:17 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
They say the same thing.

And since decency, dignity, and equality are relative, no one is right.
Ah, argumentum ad nihilism via moral relativity.
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Old 28th January 2020, 12:20 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Quite horrifying that the two most vilified people on the planet are a teenage girl and a 20-something woman.

You'd almost think their detractors were showing fear.
Fear of young women.

Perhaps the least represented demographic in politics.
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Old 28th January 2020, 12:23 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Except it isn't even true. We haven't shifted much, and certainly not uniformly to the right. Gay marriage is a thing now, and it's basically accepted by the public. That's really recent move to the left. Even Obama was opposed to it at the beginning of his first term. And you won't find any Democratic presidential candidates talking about illegal immigration the way Bill Clinton talked about it.
Whereas the GOP has moved from amnesty for illegal immigrants in Reagan's time to internment camps for refugees. Meanwhile, Trump is dismantling protections gay and trans people.

In other words, the GOP is pushing hard right while Democrats are barely dipping their toes into center-left policies and positions. Hell, even Obama picked a healthcare reform plan that utilized private insurance companies and a market system.

AOC is correct unless you very carefully cherry-pick the context or rely on special pleading.
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Old 28th January 2020, 12:24 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Quite horrifying that the two most vilified people on the planet are a teenage girl and a 20-something woman.
I'm pretty sure Donald Trump gets more vilification than the two of them combined.
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Old 28th January 2020, 12:31 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Tormac View Post
I get that the Democratic Party of the USA is not a far left party by European standards.

They are not the only game in town if the Republicans are too far right for one's tastes.

America has a socialist party and a communist party that one could vote for.

Why is AOC acting like the Socialist Party and the Communist Party don't exist here in the States? Jill Stein is running for 2020 again is she not?

This seems to be more about AOC trying to move the Democratic party farther to the left that the Democratic establishment is comfortable with, than there being no real left wing choice in the USA.
Well, yes. As she said, the democratic party is basically a center to center-conservative party (although I wonder if, given her education, she means "conservative" to mean "slowing change", as opposed to "right-wing"), with left-wing people in it. This is certainly better than the GOP, which is a far right party and currently led by a proto-fascist president - ie. one that believes that the US should reserve citizenship for people of European ancestry and Christian heritage only, who strives to return to a mythical "golden age", and whose enemies are both pathetically weak, and yet capable of bringing the US to it's knees.

As I said, we do have insignificant "leftist" parties - and they will remain insignificant unless one party or the other collapses the way the Whigs did back in the 1850s.

Quote:
If the Democrats are too far to the right for you, I am sure Jill Stein would love to have your vote. And if enough people started voting for the Socialist party, the Democratic party would start to move to the left in response.
This is unrealistic, in her view (mine as well). For now, the two parties of importance are the dems and the GOP, and there's no reason to think the dems can't be dragged left to be...well, in line with the everyday US citizen, just as McConnell, and Gingrich before him, has effectively dragged the GOP into the realm of white supremacism and authoritarianism.
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Old 28th January 2020, 12:32 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by Tormac View Post
I am trying to broaden the discussion of the parties on the left that one could vote for. You may vote for whoever you like, and if you don't like Jill Stein either, maybe the Communist Party USA might better represent your views. Or maybe some other party that I have never heard of.

The point being there are no political limits to political parties left or right wing lean here in the USA. It seems to me to be disingenuous to say that there are no real left wing parties in the USA though, when there are full on Socialist and Communist parties in the USA that one could vote for.
It's pretty disingenuous to say that when there is such a limit, when it's effectively a two-party system.

The Democrats used to be far more progressive in the first three quarters of the 20th century so it's not like there's no precedent.
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Old 28th January 2020, 12:32 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I made fun of polls earlier, because the polls being referenced were single-issue cherry picked polling. It is indeed easy to do polling badly in order to get the results you want. But it's possible to broadly poll people about their political opinions on a wide range of issues. Do that well and you can get a good sense of people's political leanings. Track that over time and you can see how they've changed. But I don't know if anyone has really done that. And in the absence of such good data, it's easy to fool yourself into thinking a narrative that's convenient.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/ar...ht_137048.html
That article is mostly just arguing about the definition of right-wing. Claiming that since the current GOP isn't minimizing government then they can't actually be considered right-wing. To borrow a recently popularized word (though I liked it more when Bill O'Reilly and Jon Stewart argued with it), that article pettifogs the usage of the word right-wing. Which is fine, I don't need to convince you, and I'll drop it.

It just hit me as strange that you wrote a paragraph saying that the evidence you'd want doesn't exist, then link me to an article quibbling about the true definition of right-wing.
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Last edited by plague311; 28th January 2020 at 12:35 PM.
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Old 28th January 2020, 12:33 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm pretty sure Donald Trump gets more vilification than the two of them combined.
Donald Trump perpetually singles people out and calls them derogatory names on a daily basis. I would say his vilification is more deserved, would you agree?
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Old 28th January 2020, 12:49 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Donald Trump perpetually singles people out and calls them derogatory names on a daily basis. I would say his vilification is more deserved, would you agree?
Back up a minute. Nobody was talking about deserve. Do you think AOC gets more vilification than Donald Trump?
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Old 28th January 2020, 12:51 PM   #105
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Couldn't she just run as an independent and have no obligations to anyone? Or, now that she's in, just drop the D and replace it with an I.
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Old 28th January 2020, 01:03 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Couldn't she just run as an independent and have no obligations to anyone? Or, now that she's in, just drop the D and replace it with an I.
Sure but she wants to be effective at achieving her agenda so that is right out. Why would making the democrats as liberal as the republicans of the late 60's like with Nixon be unthinkable and needing to work outside the system?
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Old 28th January 2020, 01:07 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
It's pretty disingenuous to say that when there is such a limit, when it's effectively a two-party system.

The Democrats used to be far more progressive in the first three quarters of the 20th century so it's not like there's no precedent.
You know Venom, I was going to make the claim that the only limit is the popularity of the position, but with the Democratic Party in particular I am not sure.

I don't think that the issue is a defect in two party system in the USA. That is largely the fault of the voters. But within the Democratic Party, the presidential candidate nomination does still seem to be controlled in the back room out of sight as much as it is by the popular vote in the primaries. The Republican Party machine could not stop Trump from getting the nomination, and had to learn to work with him.

It feels like the Democratic Party machine could control Bernie, and keep him from getting in Hillarie’s way in 2016. Will something like this happen again in 2020?

As a Libertarian who has not been satisfied with either party for a while, I was happy to see Trump win, (not because I like his policies) but just because it felt like something happened that the Republican Party could not control. I think that the Democratic Party needs a similar event.

Maybe AOC is this event. I guess we will have to see if Pelosi can ultimately keep AOC in the party’s line. It seems like Pelosi is having trouble with it so far.
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Old 28th January 2020, 01:07 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Couldn't she just run as an independent and have no obligations to anyone? Or, now that she's in, just drop the D and replace it with an I.
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Sure but she wants to be effective at achieving her agenda so that is right out. Why would making the democrats as liberal as the republicans of the late 60's like with Nixon be unthinkable and needing to work outside the system?
Seems to work for Bernie, who's always an (I) unless he's running for President.
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Old 28th January 2020, 01:09 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Sure but she wants to be effective at achieving her agenda so that is right out. Why would making the democrats as liberal as the republicans of the late 60's like with Nixon be unthinkable and needing to work outside the system?
She's trying to have it both ways: All the advantages of being part of the Democratic establishment, plus all the advantages of undermining that establishment. This doesn't sound like a stable strategy for sustaining the advantages of the Democratic establishment.
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Old 28th January 2020, 01:09 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Back up a minute. Nobody was talking about deserve.
I never said anyone was talking about it. I brought in a qualifier because it was important.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Do you think AOC gets more vilification than Donald Trump?
Yes, I do. I feel actions have consequences and while it's easier to say, "Trump gets more vilification than AOC", the truth is Trump causes more of his vilification. He treats people worse than AOC does and therefore exhibits more villainous behavior.
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Old 28th January 2020, 01:10 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Couldn't she just run as an independent and have no obligations to anyone? Or, now that she's in, just drop the D and replace it with an I.
She could or she could just do what she's doing as it seems to be working.
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Old 28th January 2020, 01:13 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Seems to work for Bernie, who's always an (I) unless he's running for President.
It can work to be in office, he doesn't exactly accomplish anything though. It doesn't get one to shape policy for example.

Take a look at just how useless he is in his report card.

https://www.govtrack.us/congress/mem...port-card/2018

He is not a model for how to be an effective legislator.
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Old 28th January 2020, 01:21 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I never said anyone was talking about it. I brought in a qualifier because it was important.
It's not important to the claim The Atheist was making.

Quote:
Yes, I do. I feel actions have consequences and while it's easier to say, "Trump gets more vilification than AOC", the truth is Trump causes more of his vilification. He treats people worse than AOC does and therefore exhibits more villainous behavior.
Heh. Even taking that into account, I bet he still gets more undeserved vilification than AOC does.

Anyway, I agree that there is a good reason why The Atheist is wrong in this case.
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Old 28th January 2020, 01:25 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's not important to the claim The Atheist was making.
How do you square that? He said:

Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Quite horrifying that the two most vilified people on the planet are a teenage girl and a 20-something woman.

You'd almost think their detractors were showing fear.
I would say the point he was trying to make is that those people don't deserve the vilification they receive and it's ironic that people who don't deserve that vilification are getting it. He can correct me if I'm wrong though.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Heh. Even taking that into account, I bet he still gets more undeserved vilification than AOC does.
Of this I have no doubts. I'm sure that it's completely undeserved in your opinion.
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Old 28th January 2020, 01:31 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
How do you square that? He said:



I would say the point he was trying to make is that those people don't deserve the vilification they receive and it's ironic that people who don't deserve that vilification are getting it. He can correct me if I'm wrong though.
Without the qualifier, he's wrong.



Quote:
Of this I have no doubts. I'm sure that it's completely undeserved in your opinion. : thumbsup :
A lot of it is deserved, in my opinion.
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Old 28th January 2020, 01:37 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Without the qualifier, he's wrong.
'k, I can award you 6 internet points but that's all I'm willing to give out.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
A lot of it is deserved, in my opinion.
Then it wouldn't be horrifying that he gets that, would it?
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Old 28th January 2020, 01:42 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
Actually, maybe we should just get some parameters to define this. I often hear over the internet that the Democratic Party is right wing by international standards while constantly hearing that it is basically Marxist from people I have to interact with in real life.


So, what does define a party as left wing? What defines the American Democratic Party as right wing? What defines right wing?
Here's my shorthand metric wherein I ask two questions and do my best to pay some attention to what they say but more on what they do.

What's their ideal?
Right/conservatives : power
liberal/centrist : law
left : morality

What is the cause of problems which must be overcome?
right/conservative : the Other
liberal/centrist : the Individual
left : the Structure / hierarchy
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Old 28th January 2020, 02:54 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm pretty sure Donald Trump gets more vilification than the two of them combined.
Unlike them, his is 100% justified.
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Old 28th January 2020, 02:58 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
Unlike them, his is 100% justified.
"Usurper."
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Old 28th January 2020, 03:17 PM   #120
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I mean, Charles Manson gets a lot of bad press too. Are we going to blame the media for that?
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