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Tags Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez , democratic party

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Old 29th January 2020, 10:52 AM   #201
Baylor
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
No, I think it's because most Americans want to keep their health plans.
Exactly. They'd rather pay $1,000 monthly premiums and a $5,000 deductibles before having UHC that illegal aliens could access.
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Old 29th January 2020, 10:55 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post

Similar (bit not identical) systems work in Norway, Sweden, Australia and Switzerland. New Zealand has a similar system that is limited to healthcare for accidents and injuries sustained at work or at home.
What did I just say? Seriously. What did I just say?

Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
I'm absolutely sick of this place comparing US to small lily white homogenous ethno-states.
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Old 29th January 2020, 11:10 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
What's the problem with that?

The calculation of giving a developer a tax break is that they will generate economic activity and thus tax revenue to make up for it. Well that and generous election campaign contributions for those voting in favor.

That same logic works when considering "public use" in the same fashion. Fix infrastructure now that will be more costly to repair later after it breaks. Fix up schools and hire more teachers so your workforce is more educated and earning higher wages later. That same logic is at play for "tax breaks" for fixing your roof and shoring up your foundation. A little work now means housing stock that retains its assessed value (and thus tax liability). That means not having to redevelop the whole blighted neighborhood later.

Oh wait, I think I'm starting to see a connection here and why "civic leaders" frown on the idea of giving normal constituents the same offer they make to developers who can write lots of checks.
The tax breaks that a developer might get to develop a large office building are taxes that the taxing authority is not currently receiving (because the office building has not been constructed). Hence there is no current revenue lost by this tax break, it's potential future revenue. However if you take the amount of those tax breaks and give it instead to the local residents as a tax break, then you are cutting into current and actual future revenue, and not even getting the benefit of the new office building with lots of jobs and potential other tax revenues (income taxes, sales taxes, etc.).
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Old 29th January 2020, 11:23 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Simply put:

It's been proposed for many decades. Initial resistance was based around anger at the idea that it might help black people, without either experimenting on them or sterilizing them. As US conservatism moved towards a more abstract "small government" claim of thinking in the latter half of the 20th century partly in reaction to the logical conclusion to this line of thinking in WW2-era Germany, and partly after the Tuskeegee Experiment was exposed to everyone, it became more of a "private business can do this better" claim of neoliberalism, embraced by both major political parties.

When Obama put forth Romney's plan for Massachusetts, critics screamed that it was "reparations" and "payback for slavery" - see Rush Limbaugh, Dinesh D'Souza, and so forth. And not that we have a white nationalist striving to take their health care access away, the poorest white Americans cheer.

Yes, I realize that conservatives, and especially the local white supremacy brigade, might whine about it. I don't care. Frankly, I hope they all have me on their ignore lists. But the more you dig into US history, why it's so bizarre and unique, the more you hit on a bunch of crap meant to drain wealth from black people, ad transfer it to *some* white people.

I really need to buy some books on Native American history, because I already know the same is true for them in general, but I'd like to be able to at least hear from historians on the particulars...
A simplistic explanation but a decent one. I surmise the US would have some form of UHC by now if it hadn't opened up its doors to the entire world in the 1960's and then open its southern border to Central/South America.
Illegal aliens cost our healthcare system billions already. Blacks are hit hardest by immigration but they don't seem to mind for some reason.
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Old 29th January 2020, 11:28 AM   #205
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For those of who able to see the silly exchange above:

New Zealand is approximately 70% white, and the USA is approximately 73% white, which translates to New Zealand being more homogeneous and 'lily-white' vs. the USA.
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Old 29th January 2020, 11:32 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
For those of who able to see the silly exchange above:

New Zealand is approximately 70% white, and the USA is approximately 73% white, which translates to New Zealand being more homogeneous and 'lily-white' vs. the USA.
You sure about that?
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Old 29th January 2020, 11:34 AM   #207
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Yes, why do you ask?
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Old 29th January 2020, 11:41 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Yes, why do you ask?

google gives me 70% (NZ) 60.7% (USA)
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Old 29th January 2020, 11:44 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
google gives me 70% (NZ) 60.7% (USA)
Google gives me 72%. Don't know how you found that. I just typed "percentage of whites in america".
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Old 29th January 2020, 11:46 AM   #210
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Ah. I am counting "white hispanics" as being white people. Like "hispanic" is counted as an ethnicity, not a "race" on the census.
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Old 29th January 2020, 11:47 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Google gives me 72%. Don't know how you found that. I just typed "percentage of whites in america".
I get this:

People also ask
What percentage of the United States is white?
60.7%
White Americans (including White Hispanics) constitute the historical and current majority of the people living in the United States, with 72% of the population in the 2010 United States Census. Non-Hispanic whites totaled about 197,285,202 or 60.7% of the U.S. population.


There must be an official figure somewhere?
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Old 29th January 2020, 11:48 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I get this:

People also ask
What percentage of the United States is white?
60.7%
White Americans (including White Hispanics) constitute the historical and current majority of the people living in the United States, with 72% of the population in the 2010 United States Census. Non-Hispanic whites totaled about 197,285,202 or 60.7% of the U.S. population.


There must be an official figure somewhere?
Ah, there's the difference: 72% includes hispanic whites. I guess it depends on how you define "white".
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Old 29th January 2020, 11:49 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Even in the UK, after a small increase of non-white immigration, the "right wing" [sic] party had its biggest electoral victory in nearly a century.
Leaving aside the huge over-simplification of what the election result actually was, what is your source for the assertion that a) there was a "small increase of non-white immigration"* b) this was the primary cause of the Tories winning?

*Over what time scale? How large an increase? How does that compare to historical figures?
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Old 29th January 2020, 11:49 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I get this:

People also ask
What percentage of the United States is white?
60.7%
White Americans (including White Hispanics) constitute the historical and current majority of the people living in the United States, with 72% of the population in the 2010 United States Census. Non-Hispanic whites totaled about 197,285,202 or 60.7% of the U.S. population.


There must be an official figure somewhere?
Those are census figures that you quoted. There is overlap with race and ethnicity in the census data. You can be a black hispanic, a white hispanic, etc.
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Old 29th January 2020, 11:50 AM   #215
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It'd be much more effective to categorise people as 'poor' 'rich' and 'very rich'.


Poor white people have far more in common with poor black people than they do rich white people.


Of course, it's to the advantage of rich (mainly white) people that the poor don't notice this and keep on hating other poor people.


The class war is a guerilla one and has been going on for 40 years and more. Those indulging in class war are making sure to keep all the poor people divided and, of course to shout "Class war!!!" very loudly when anyone tries to fight back.
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Old 29th January 2020, 11:51 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
For those of who able to see the silly exchange above:

New Zealand is approximately 70% white, and the USA is approximately 73% white, which translates to New Zealand being more homogeneous and 'lily-white' vs. the USA.
Reasons

1. We didn't forcibly kidnap and drag hundreds of thousands of black people from Africa, bring them to our country to enslave them

2. We don't have an extremely populous nation of non-white people living across the border.

A more accurate comparison would be comparing the white populations with the indigenous populations.

NZ 70% white, 17% Māori (Ratio 4:1)
US 61% white, 1.6% Native American (Ratio 38:1)
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Old 29th January 2020, 11:52 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
It'd be much more effective to categorise people as 'poor' 'rich' and 'very rich'.
I'd rather not categorising them at all, but alas...
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Old 29th January 2020, 11:52 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Leaving aside the huge over-simplification of what the election result actually was, what is your source for the assertion that a) there was a "small increase of non-white immigration"* b) this was the primary cause of the Tories winning?

*Over what time scale? How large an increase? How does that compare to historical figures?
Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Those are census figures that you quoted. There is overlap with race and ethnicity in the census data. You can be a black hispanic, a white hispanic, etc.

Up to speed. Thank you both.
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Old 29th January 2020, 11:52 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Ah, there's the difference: 72% includes hispanic whites. I guess it depends on how you define "white".
In the context of Baylor's hypothesis that Americans by and large don't want foreigners getting healthcare, it would depend on who they define as white, which I'm sure would vary somewhat.

I think you can consider them foreigners or transplants, but to think
European Hispanics "not white" is pretty stupid.
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Old 29th January 2020, 11:53 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
In the context of Baylor's hypothesis that Americans by and large don't want foreigners getting healthcare, it would depend on who THEY define as white, which I'm sure would vary somewhat.

I think you can consider them foreigners or transplants, but to think
European Hispanics "not white" is pretty stupid.
Hey don't ask me, I just work here.
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Old 29th January 2020, 11:58 AM   #221
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I didn't mean to single you out I just latched onto the last poster on the topic.
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Old 29th January 2020, 11:59 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Okay, half of them I dismiss out of hand due to the source not being connected in any way with the planet.
LOL. What happened to drowning out the debate with ad hom noise? Please don't tell me you're terrified of Bob's arguments.

Quote:
With regard to the rest:

Anyone who thinks political parties can't move position is mental and hasn't read history

If political parties positions aren't moved by people then what are they moved by.


She appears to be GBS's unreasonable woman. and all power to her.
I don't see what any of that has to do with the arguments presented.
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Old 29th January 2020, 11:59 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
I didn't mean to single you out I just latched onto the last poster on the topic.
Talk to my manager, sir.
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Old 29th January 2020, 12:03 PM   #224
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If indeed there is a large portion of Americans who don't want to provide universal healthcare to people who don't look like them, I doubt Europeans like Ted Cruz and Marco Rubio are the ones they're worried about.
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Old 29th January 2020, 12:06 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
What did I just say? Seriously. What did I just say?
Quote:
Baylor
I'm absolutely sick of this place comparing US to small lily white homogenous ethno-states.
Oooh, cuz 'Merica is soooo speshul

You're not special.

Your % white population is about the same as ours, yet we manage to cover EVERYONE, including foreigners and visitors.... yes... visitors! If you come to this country, whether on business or a holiday and have an accident, regardless of whether or not it is your fault, your treatment (and hospitalisation if you need it) is covered by the ACC (Accident Compensation Corporation) even if you have no insurance!

https://www.acc.co.nz/im-injured/inj...ent-after-navs

ACC is paid for by NZ taxpayers through their taxes and through employer and employee levies. We have a population of about five million, but we manage to cover all of them, and the approximately 3.5 million tourists that visit to this country every year..... oh, and it doesn't matter what their skin colour is.
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Old 29th January 2020, 12:06 PM   #226
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
LOL. What happened to drowning out the debate with ad hom noise? Please don't tell me you're terrified of Bob's arguments.
No, just wise to his game. There's no point in debating with a man whose freely admits he'd starve to death if someone bought the land around his house and denied him access. His base position, and therefore his comments are simply not connected to reality. I'll debate you, I won't debate him. I am terrified of the time he might cost me if he drags me in to his ********. It's just not worth it.


Quote:
I don't see what any of that has to do with the arguments presented.
The objection was that she was trying to 'move the party 'leftwards'? And that's somehow a big issue? Either they'll go with her or they won't. I really don't see the mileage in objecting to her trying to do it.

There may be a valid criticism that she's wasting her time but she, and the majority of her constituents, it seems don't agree, so I would say it's her time to waste - if indeed, it is wasted.


I disagree with the apparent fundamental objection that political parties should stay in the same place politically. I also disagree with the apparent assumption that a member of a political party cannot actively try to shift its position.
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Old 29th January 2020, 12:10 PM   #227
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Oooh, cuz 'Merica is soooo speshul

You're not special.

Your % white population is about the same as ours, yet we manage to cover EVERYONE, including foreigners and visitors.... yes... visitors! If you come to this country, whether on business or a holiday and have an accident, regardless of whether or not it is your fault, your treatment (and hospitalisation if you need it) is covered by the ACC (Accident Compensation Corporation) even if you have no insurance!

https://www.acc.co.nz/im-injured/inj...ent-after-navs

ACC is paid for by NZ taxpayers through their taxes and through employer and employee levies. We have a population of about five million, but we manage to cover all of them, and the approximately 3.5 million tourists that visit to this country every year..... oh, and it doesn't matter what their skin colour is.
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Old 29th January 2020, 12:13 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
No, just wise to his game. There's no point in debating with a man whose freely admits he'd starve to death if someone bought the land around his house and denied him access. His base position, and therefore his comments are simply not connected to reality. I'll debate you, I won't debate him. I am terrified of the time he might cost me if he drags me in to his ********. It's just not worth it.
You don't think other people might be dismissing AOC on similar ad hom grounds, rather than out of terror at her ideas?

Quote:
The objection was that she was trying to 'move the party 'leftwards'?
No. The "objection" - actually a criticism - is that the methods she's using are exploitative and perhaps somewhat dishonest.

There is another criticism, which I think is probably valid, that pulling the party leftwards in the way she's doing it may show short-term gains in terms of more left-leaning representatives in the House and further down-ticket, but risks long-term damage to a Democrat party that can't afford to drift too far leftwards in the current Overton window. Similar to how the Tea Party had a strong surge when they first started, but within a few years they're a bad joke and a footnote to the GOP. And costing the GOP some credibility in the process. There's a similar dynamic at risk here, I think. Moving the party leftwards may be ideologically desirable, but it could be strategically detrimental.

Please don't confuse this for an argument that she's not allowed to try, or that she's wrong for wanting a leftier party, or something like that.

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Old 29th January 2020, 12:13 PM   #229
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
If I'm not mistaken, that's a screenshot from the original "12 Angry Men"

The significance escapes me though.
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Old 29th January 2020, 12:17 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
No, just wise to his game. There's no point in debating with a man whose freely admits he'd starve to death if someone bought the land around his house and denied him access. His base position, and therefore his comments are simply not connected to reality. I'll debate you, I won't debate him. I am terrified of the time he might cost me if he drags me in to his ********. It's just not worth it.




The objection was that she was trying to 'move the party 'leftwards'? And that's somehow a big issue? Either they'll go with her or they won't. I really don't see the mileage in objecting to her trying to do it.

There may be a valid criticism that she's wasting her time but she, and the majority of her constituents, it seems don't agree, so I would say it's her time to waste - if indeed, it is wasted.


I disagree with the apparent fundamental objection that political parties should stay in the same place politically. I also disagree with the apparent assumption that a member of a political party cannot actively try to shift its position.
Objections were linked to her involvement with the DCCC, which isn't the Democratic party.
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Old 29th January 2020, 12:21 PM   #231
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Objections were linked to her involvement with the DCCC, which isn't the Democratic party.
The DCCC is the official campaign arm of the House Democrats.
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Old 29th January 2020, 12:22 PM   #232
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You don't think other people might be dismissing AOC on similar ad hom grounds, rather than out of terror at her ideas?
Nope. Bob is a lone voice on a pointless message board. She's an actual politician. They could both be as pointless as each other, conceptually speaking (they're not, but it doesn't matter), and she'd still be way more worth addressing than he because clearly enough people believe in her to put her in office. Nobody, not even Bob, believes what Bob says.


Quote:
No.
I'm still struggling to see what it is you want me to comment on. This all seems very storm in a teacup.
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Old 29th January 2020, 12:23 PM   #233
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
For those of who able to see the silly exchange above:

New Zealand is approximately 70% white, and the USA is approximately 73% white, which translates to New Zealand being more homogeneous and 'lily-white' vs. the USA.
If memory serves, though, that non white 27% in New Zealand is pretty much one group, the Maoris, whereas the 30% non white in the US is made up of several different groups (some of whom really don't like each other very much).
So , in a way, NZ is more homogeneous then the US.
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Old 29th January 2020, 12:25 PM   #234
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Oooh, cuz 'Merica is soooo speshul

You're not special.

Your % white population is about the same as ours, yet we manage to cover EVERYONE, including foreigners and visitors.... yes... visitors! If you come to this country, whether on business or a holiday and have an accident, regardless of whether or not it is your fault, your treatment (and hospitalisation if you need it) is covered by the ACC (Accident Compensation Corporation) even if you have no insurance!

https://www.acc.co.nz/im-injured/inj...ent-after-navs

ACC is paid for by NZ taxpayers through their taxes and through employer and employee levies. We have a population of about five million, but we manage to cover all of them, and the approximately 3.5 million tourists that visit to this country every year..... oh, and it doesn't matter what their skin colour is.
Sorry, but America is Different then NZ.
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Old 29th January 2020, 12:34 PM   #235
Thermal
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Yes, why do you ask?
Because you conclude that 70% white NZ is more 'lily white and homogenous' than 73% USA. Somethings not making sense
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Old 29th January 2020, 12:36 PM   #236
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
The tax breaks that a developer might get to develop a large office building are taxes that the taxing authority is not currently receiving (because the office building has not been constructed). Hence there is no current revenue lost by this tax break, it's potential future revenue. However if you take the amount of those tax breaks and give it instead to the local residents as a tax break, then you are cutting into current and actual future revenue, and not even getting the benefit of the new office building with lots of jobs and potential other tax revenues (income taxes, sales taxes, etc.).
My example used "tax breaks" in the same way. For fixing up your house. For increasing its value. It does not currently have that potentially increased value which could generate higher revenue later.

I did not propose blanket tax rate reduction across the board.

If you aren't going to address what I said, don't quote or respond to me.

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Old 29th January 2020, 12:46 PM   #237
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Nope. Bob is a lone voice on a pointless message board. She's an actual politician. They could both be as pointless as each other, conceptually speaking (they're not, but it doesn't matter), and she'd still be way more worth addressing than he because clearly enough people believe in her to put her in office. Nobody, not even Bob, believes what Bob says.
Fair enough.

Quote:
I'm still struggling to see what it is you want me to comment on. This all seems very storm in a teacup.
Sorry, I added a lengthy edit after that. I don't necessarily want you to comment on anything. If you do comment on my posts, though, I'd prefer it if you confined your comments to what I've actually written. At least to begin with.
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Old 29th January 2020, 12:53 PM   #238
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Fair enough.


Sorry, I added a lengthy edit after that. I don't necessarily want you to comment on anything. If you do comment on my posts, though, I'd prefer it if you confined your comments to what I've actually written. At least to begin with.

I went back and read your addition. It makes sense. And yes, there's risk in moving the party stance.

I think that a move leftward is more likely to produce the promised results - or something closer to the promised results - than a move rightward so I think there's less risk going left than right, partly because there's not a lot more right to go to and partly because one can show that societies that operate to the left of where the leftmost US party is can actually be successful and work for the benefit of (nearly all) as shown in actual, real life.
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Old 29th January 2020, 02:37 PM   #239
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Because you conclude that 70% white NZ is more 'lily white and homogenous' than 73% USA. Somethings not making sense
I certainly do not conclude that, nor do I care what skin color people have when I devise a health care plan.

I intended the scare quotes as scare quotes, and was sarcastically referring to "the exchange above" where that phrase was used. As I also noted, not everyone could see the post that I was referring to, but I'm not quoting it. Search the page for 'lily white' if that helps.

Last edited by carlitos; 29th January 2020 at 02:39 PM.
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Old 29th January 2020, 03:24 PM   #240
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
I certainly do not conclude that, nor do I care what skin color people have when I devise a health care plan.

I intended the scare quotes as scare quotes, and was sarcastically referring to "the exchange above" where that phrase was used. As I also noted, not everyone could see the post that I was referring to, but I'm not quoting it. Search the page for 'lily white' if that helps.
Gotcha. Missed that subtlety the first go-around, thanks for clearing up
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