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Tags Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez , democratic party

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Old 29th January 2020, 04:04 PM   #241
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Exactly. They'd rather pay $1,000 monthly premiums and a $5,000 deductibles before having UHC that illegal aliens could access.
I actually picked my plan because I could see out of network specialists and urgent care for a $35 copay.
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Old 29th January 2020, 04:56 PM   #242
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I went back and read your addition. It makes sense. And yes, there's risk in moving the party stance.

I think that a move leftward is more likely to produce the promised results - or something closer to the promised results - than a move rightward so I think there's less risk going left than right, partly because there's not a lot more right to go to
Perhaps, but both of those options would be riskier than the maintaining the status quo - the "Big Tent" party. I would think the Dem leadership would like to maintain that broad appeal.

I'll put it at a personal level: I'm pretty fed up with the Republican Party in general and I can see myself voting for moderate Democrats in the future. But if that future rapidly leads to an AOC-style party . . . I don't know.

Quote:
and partly because one can show that societies that operate to the left of where the leftmost US party is can actually be successful and work for the benefit of (nearly all) as shown in actual, real life.
But it's about more than what can work other places. I don't think, "Look at how they do things in the Nordic countries, look how happy and successful they are" is going to appeal to many Americans. Make a case for a plan that will work here based on American values and traditions and it has a better chance. I mean, let's be real, life is pretty great in those Nordic countries and I can see the appeal. But Americans and American culture/society are very different than their Nordic counterparts. I think a lot has to change first before we are ready to embrace such a model, so radical changes are not going to be embraced.
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Old 29th January 2020, 05:50 PM   #243
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I'm just copying this in from the coronavirus thread:

Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
I don't know if this is a better fit here or in Politics, but right-wing AM radio raving lunatic Michael Savage has suggested that his listeners mail infected material to Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez.
They fear her.

Big time.
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Old 29th January 2020, 06:45 PM   #244
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Michael Savage is human filth.

I can think of few things more annoying than listening to him "debate" a caller.
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Old 29th January 2020, 06:48 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
I actually picked my plan because I could see out of network specialists and urgent care for a $35 copay.
Oddly enough, UHC also does not mean that illegal aliens get to benefit from it. You still have to sign up for the coverage.

Canada does this. Immigrants have to pay for coverage, I believe before the UHC kicks in.
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Old 29th January 2020, 08:12 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
In the context of Baylor's hypothesis that Americans by and large don't want foreigners getting healthcare, it would depend on who they define as white, which I'm sure would vary somewhat.

I think you can consider them foreigners or transplants, but to think
European Hispanics "not white" is pretty stupid.
In America, "Hispanic" typically refers to a Spanish speaking person of Amerindian origin.

Aside from race and ethnicity, you have the large linguistic fractionalization that doesn't exist in New Zealand.
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Old 29th January 2020, 08:14 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Reasons

1. We didn't forcibly kidnap and drag hundreds of thousands of black people from Africa, bring them to our country to enslave them

2. We don't have an extremely populous nation of non-white people living across the border.

A more accurate comparison would be comparing the white populations with the indigenous populations.

NZ 70% white, 17% Māori (Ratio 4:1)
US 61% white, 1.6% Native American (Ratio 38:1)
Now you're saying Mexican aren't white??
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Old 29th January 2020, 08:18 PM   #248
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
If memory serves, though, that non white 27% in New Zealand is pretty much one group, the Maoris, whereas the 30% non white in the US is made up of several different groups (some of whom really don't like each other very much).
So , in a way, NZ is more homogeneous then the US.
US is far more diverse than NZ. And the more diverse the country the more problems the country has.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...iversity_level
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Old 29th January 2020, 08:22 PM   #249
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
google gives me 70% (NZ) 60.7% (USA)
And that's going by 10 year old census data.
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Old 30th January 2020, 01:05 AM   #250
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Baylor, from where did you get your data that there has recently been an increase in non-white immigration in the UK, and that this was the primary cause of the Conservative party winning the last election?
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Old 30th January 2020, 01:15 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Now you're saying Mexican aren't white??
The Mexicans I've known generally don't self-identify as white.
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Old 30th January 2020, 04:16 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Baylor, from where did you get your data that there has recently been an increase in non-white immigration in the UK, and that this was the primary cause of the Conservative party winning the last election?
Isn't this just part of White Nationalist dogma?
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Old 30th January 2020, 04:23 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Isn't this just part of White Nationalist dogma?
Perhaps. I don't want to assume. I'm sure Baylor won't mind answering.
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Old 30th January 2020, 04:31 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Perhaps, but both of those options would be riskier than the maintaining the status quo - the "Big Tent" party. I would think the Dem leadership would like to maintain that broad appeal.
I think the 'broad tent' thing may well be a myth. It's impossible to tell how many voters would be to the left of the Democrat party as there's no party there for them to have defected to.


Quote:
I'll put it at a personal level: I'm pretty fed up with the Republican Party in general and I can see myself voting for moderate Democrats in the future. But if that future rapidly leads to an AOC-style party . . . I don't know.
I don't think you're the sort of voter that this is supposed to target.


Quote:
But it's about more than what can work other places. I don't think, "Look at how they do things in the Nordic countries, look how happy and successful they are" is going to appeal to many Americans.
No, I understand that, but it does show that it is at least possible.



Quote:
Make a case for a plan that will work here based on American values and traditions and it has a better chance. I mean, let's be real, life is pretty great in those Nordic countries and I can see the appeal. But Americans and American culture/society are very different than their Nordic counterparts. I think a lot has to change first before we are ready to embrace such a model, so radical changes are not going to be embraced.


As I understand it, when US Citizens are polled on policy rather than party, a majority actually favour policies to the left. Or, rather 'left'.
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Old 30th January 2020, 05:18 AM   #255
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About people preferring private health insurance....the claim is a bit of misdirection. They claim health insurance is good because something like 70% like theory, but that is a terrible number.

If I told you the restaurant makes a good meal 70%of the time, is that a good restaurant?
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Old 30th January 2020, 06:09 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
If I'm not mistaken, that's a screenshot from the original "12 Angry Men"

The significance escapes me though.
It's indeed from that great movie.

The significance is that at that point of the movie the character is calling his opponents in the deliberations soft-hearted liberals, essentially. He's in favour of convicting the accused, and he thinks they're being too lenient, etc.

I was just calling Kiwis bleading hearts in the same way, playing the hard-line conservative.
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Old 30th January 2020, 07:37 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Now you're saying Mexican aren't white??
Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
The Mexicans I've known generally don't self-identify as white.
The US Census as only one ethnicity on their forms, Hispanic. Which means, Mexicans can identify officially as any race that the Census tracks.

About 50% of hispanic American's identify as white. Anyrate, Mexicans can be white, black, native American and less commonly, Asian. Though, after white, Hispanic Americans mostly identify as mixed race.

IIRC, polling indicates most Hispanic Americans start self identifying as white within a generation or two.

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Old 30th January 2020, 07:41 AM   #258
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hispanics are privileged
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Old 30th January 2020, 08:02 AM   #259
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Edited by Agatha:  Edited for rule 12.
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Old 30th January 2020, 08:32 AM   #260
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I work with a ton of Hispanic guys from Central and South America. Can't wait to tell them to check their white privilege.
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Old 30th January 2020, 10:07 AM   #261
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Largely due to the effectiveness of the corporate consent factories in the US, it is the only country on earth in which Socialism is neither understood nor taken seriously by the vast majority of the population. I think that could be about to change.
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Old 30th January 2020, 10:11 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by grunion View Post
Largely due to the effectiveness of the corporate consent factories in the US, it is the only country on earth in which Socialism is neither understood nor taken seriously by the vast majority of the population. I think that could be about to change.
The thing is, the US is, at least in part, somewhat socialistic.

Any taxation for the common good, no matter how small the taxation or the good, is socialism.

The US runs on socialism, from it's fire departments to it's military to it's EPA to it's road network and it's culture of propping up corporations. It's all socialism.
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Old 30th January 2020, 10:24 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
The thing is, the US is, at least in part, somewhat socialistic.

Any taxation for the common good, no matter how small the taxation or the good, is socialism.

The US runs on socialism, from it's fire departments to it's military to it's EPA to it's road network and it's culture of propping up corporations. It's all socialism.
What we were taught all through school was that the US is best described as a 'mixed economy'.
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Old 30th January 2020, 10:32 AM   #264
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Really is there any "Pure X-ism according to Polysci 101 textbooks" functioning government anywhere in the world? Has there ever been?

Hell unless we're talking pure anarchy or absolute totalitariansm we have to be talking matters of degree.

The people, the government, and "business" are not totally separate entities so they will act they way they do in an economic philosophy course.

Whenever we talk politics the biggest fanboys for the economical/political systems always talk of "The people" and "the government" and "business" as if they are singular entities walking around doing stuff.
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Old 30th January 2020, 10:32 AM   #265
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
What we were taught all through school was that the US is best described as a 'mixed economy'.

Anywhere with both taxation and private enterprise is.

It's not a Capitalist/socialist dichotomy, it's a question of how much of each you want.
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Old 30th January 2020, 10:57 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Reasons

1. We didn't forcibly kidnap and drag hundreds of thousands of black people from Africa, bring them to our country to enslave them

2. We don't have an extremely populous nation of non-white people living across the border.

A more accurate comparison would be comparing the white populations with the indigenous populations.

NZ 70% white, 17% Māori (Ratio 4:1)
US 61% white, 1.6% Native American (Ratio 38:1)
Yep. I'm not at all read up on Maori like I am on black American history, so I can't discuss or compare NZ history with US history. I can tell you the "why" of voting patterns in the US, to an extent, I can't do that for other countries. That's up to you - and by the way, thanks for your addition to the matter!
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Old 30th January 2020, 11:02 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
It's indeed from that great movie.

The significance is that at that point of the movie the character is calling his opponents in the deliberations soft-hearted liberals, essentially. He's in favour of convicting the accused, and he thinks they're being too lenient, etc.

I was just calling Kiwis bleading hearts in the same way, playing the hard-line conservative.
Ok, thanks for Belzsplaining
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Old 30th January 2020, 11:06 AM   #268
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
It's not a Capitalist/socialist dichotomy, it's a question of how much of each you want.
Excellent summary.

Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Ok, thanks for Belzsplaining


To be clear, I don't think you're bleeding-heart softies.
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Old 30th January 2020, 03:11 PM   #269
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
To be clear, I don't think you're bleeding-heart softies.
You should - we're definitely the furthest left of all English-speaking nations, and since they're the only ones that count, you can use the label. To find a government anywhere that's further left you'd probably need to point to Uruguay and he was removed by a coup, so we might even be the furthest-left country there is and I think it's odds on our Labour government will be re-elected in 8 months' time.

We were the first country anywhere with universal suffrage, and first to allow women the vote; we have state-paid healthcare, education and housing. So far left we even allowed an Aussie who was a bit left for their tastes to come and run NZ for a few years - Michael Joseph Savage, one of the greatest democratic socialists of the 20th century and architect of the welfare state.

We banned US ships in the '80s, costing our economy billions, and if US ships routinely carried nukes, we'd probably do it again.

We are steenking Commies down here mate.
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Old 30th January 2020, 04:55 PM   #270
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
You should - we're definitely the furthest left of all English-speaking nations, and since they're the only ones that count, you can use the label. To find a government anywhere that's further left you'd probably need to point to Uruguay and he was removed by a coup, so we might even be the furthest-left country there is and I think it's odds on our Labour government will be re-elected in 8 months' time.

We were the first country anywhere with universal suffrage, and first to allow women the vote; we have state-paid healthcare, education and housing. So far left we even allowed an Aussie who was a bit left for their tastes to come and run NZ for a few years - Michael Joseph Savage, one of the greatest democratic socialists of the 20th century and architect of the welfare state.

We banned US ships in the '80s, costing our economy billions, and if US ships routinely carried nukes, we'd probably do it again.

We are steenking Commies down here mate.
It would be Fox News' wet dream to live in NZ in that case.

All their fantasies about radical socialist liberals could be somewhat closer to what they imagine.
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Old 30th January 2020, 05:31 PM   #271
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
It would be Fox News' wet dream to live in NZ in that case.
Funny how the only media investment Murdoch ever made in NZ was in a satellite sportscasting company. That boy knows where the right lives.
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Old 30th January 2020, 05:55 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Excellent summary.





To be clear, I don't think you're bleeding-heart softies.
I would not care to call a Maori ANY kind of a softie....
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Old 30th January 2020, 05:59 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I would not care to call a Maori ANY kind of a softie....
They did lose their homeland to a bunch of kiwis. A fair few of them must be cream puffs.
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Old 31st January 2020, 01:06 PM   #274
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Isn't this just part of White Nationalist dogma?
I imagine that if a country is less diverse there are fewer people racism can potentially harm so if it's true at all the “extra problems” are really just the problems the racists themselves are causing.


I sense a Simpsons quote in there someplace: “You know, sir, accidents decreased by exactly the number that Simpson himself is known or suspected to have caused last month, and our output level was just as high during Simpson’s last vacation.”
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Old 31st January 2020, 01:16 PM   #275
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
The thing is, the US is, at least in part, somewhat socialistic.

Any taxation for the common good, no matter how small the taxation or the good, is socialism.

The US runs on socialism, from it's fire departments to it's military to it's EPA to it's road network and it's culture of propping up corporations. It's all socialism.
That isn't what socialism is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism

Quote:
Socialism is a political, social and economic philosophy encompassing a range of economic and social systems characterised by social ownership[1][2][3] of the means of production[4][5][6][7] and workers' self-management of enterprise[8][9] as well as the political theories and movements associated with such systems.[10] Social ownership can be public, collective or cooperative ownership, or citizen ownership of equity.[11] There are many varieties of socialism and there is no single definition encapsulating all of them,[12] with social ownership being the common element shared by its various forms.[1][13][14]
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Old 31st January 2020, 01:57 PM   #276
Cabbage
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
That isn't what socialism is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism


It's what Fox News calls socialism.
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Old 31st January 2020, 04:25 PM   #277
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
I imagine that if a country is less diverse there are fewer people racism can potentially harm so if it's true at all the “extra problems” are really just the problems the racists themselves are causing.


I sense a Simpsons quote in there someplace: “You know, sir, accidents decreased by exactly the number that Simpson himself is known or suspected to have caused last month, and our output level was just as high during Simpson’s last vacation.”
I've always thought that if White Supremacists ever got their ethnically pure state, absolutely nothing would be different. They would just start fighting amongst themselves about something else.
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Old 31st January 2020, 04:47 PM   #278
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
That isn't what socialism is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism

I'm using the term coloquially. I admit, I'm only discovering that I was now.

Generally, I think people use it to mean a government taxing and spending, don't they?

What term should I be using?
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Old 31st January 2020, 04:48 PM   #279
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
I've always thought that if White Supremacists ever got their ethnically pure state, absolutely nothing would be different. They would just start fighting amongst themselves about something else.

Oh, you can be sure of that.

Fox news would issue half of them green hats and half of them yellow hats to ensure it.
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Old 31st January 2020, 04:48 PM   #280
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I'm using the term coloquially. I admit, I'm only discovering that I was now.

Generally, I think people use it to mean a government taxing and spending, don't they?

What term should I be using?
welfare capitalism
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